Home› A Moving Train

Simple question: Do you support Israel's right to exist?

ogre1213ogre1213 Posts: 400
in A Moving Train
:-?
Some die just to live
«134567

Comments

  • rr165892rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    Of course yes,and protect itself.
  • IdrisIdris Posts: 2,317
    What does that even mean? Exist? Where? How? In what capacity?

    Surely Israel in her current state should not be around.
  • ogre1213ogre1213 Posts: 400
    Idris said:

    What does that even mean? Exist? Where? How? In what capacity?

    Surely Israel in her current state should not be around.

    Do you think the jews deserve any land at all?
    Some die just to live
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    everyone has a right to exist
  • JimmyVJimmyV Posts: 19,172
    I support Israel's right to exist no more and no less than I support the Palestinians' right to a safe, free homeland.
    ___________________________________________

    "...I changed by not changing at all..."
  • ogre1213ogre1213 Posts: 400
    edited July 2014
    JimmyV said:

    I support Israel's right to exist no more and no less than I support the Palestinians' right to a safe, free homeland.

    Great answer
    I think any sane human being with a yearning for peace would agree with you
    Post edited by ogre1213 on
    Some die just to live
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,604
    ogre1213 said:

    Idris said:

    What does that even mean? Exist? Where? How? In what capacity?

    Surely Israel in her current state should not be around.

    Do you think the jews deserve any land at all?
    what is your point? they were allocated land during the formation of Israel, then seized more during the 1967 war . And have since increased settlements in areas stolen BEYOND that.

    Just how much land do they want? what of the folks who were already there? How much do they get? What kind of compensation for destroyed homes, groves, etc? What of those displaced in 1948? What about them? how much do they get?
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • ogre1213ogre1213 Posts: 400
    mickeyrat said:

    ogre1213 said:

    Idris said:

    What does that even mean? Exist? Where? How? In what capacity?

    Surely Israel in her current state should not be around.

    Do you think the jews deserve any land at all?
    what is your point? they were allocated land during the formation of Israel, then seized more during the 1967 war . And have since increased settlements in areas stolen BEYOND that.

    Just how much land do they want? what of the folks who were already there? How much do they get? What kind of compensation for destroyed homes, groves, etc? What of those displaced in 1948? What about them? how much do they get?
    Yeah maybe the right way to go about getting what you want is to terrorize the civilians
    Some die just to live
  • IdrisIdris Posts: 2,317
    ogre1213 said:

    Idris said:

    What does that even mean? Exist? Where? How? In what capacity?

    Surely Israel in her current state should not be around.

    Do you think the jews deserve any land at all?
    Maybe then Change your thread title to,

    'Do you think the jews deserve any land at all'.
    -

    I don't care what color, race, sex, religion someone is, we all are part of this world, and we all deserve to live in peace. (well maybe not everyone)

    Do Jews specifically deserve 'any' land? Of course not, 'any'? Land?

    Would it be nice to have a true homeland for people of the Jewish faith? Sure, but not at the expense of another people, not by the tip of an American made missile.
  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    While I'm all for discussion on this or any topic, how many threads are needed for this particular one?
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,604
    ogre1213 said:

    mickeyrat said:

    ogre1213 said:

    Idris said:

    What does that even mean? Exist? Where? How? In what capacity?

    Surely Israel in her current state should not be around.

    Do you think the jews deserve any land at all?
    what is your point? they were allocated land during the formation of Israel, then seized more during the 1967 war . And have since increased settlements in areas stolen BEYOND that.

    Just how much land do they want? what of the folks who were already there? How much do they get? What kind of compensation for destroyed homes, groves, etc? What of those displaced in 1948? What about them? how much do they get?
    Yeah maybe the right way to go about getting what you want is to terrorize the civilians
    seems to have worked for Israel with USA backing for all these years!!
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 Posts: 23,303
    do i believe israel has a right to exist?

    not with today's borders. i have no issue with the borders drawn prior to the 1967 war. most of the territory acquired by israel has been found to be in violation of international law. the only reason the land theft, and this version of the war, continues is because the united states explicitly allows it to continue.

    do i believe there is a right to a "jewish only state"?

    no.

    no more than i believe that there should be a "catholic only" state. no more than i believe there should be a "muslim only" state. no more than i believe that there should be an "atheist only" state.
    religion is a tool used to divide the masses, and is no basis for boundaries to be drawn around an exclusive nation.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited July 2014

    http://www.latimes.com/la-op-makdisi11mar11-story.html

    '....Consider [...] the editorial in The Times [...] demanding that the Palestinians "recognize Israel" and its "right to exist." This is a common enough sentiment — even a cliche. Yet many observers (most recently the international lawyer John Whitbeck) have pointed out that this proposition, assiduously propagated by Israel’s advocates and uncritically reiterated by American politicians and journalists, is — at best — utterly nonsensical.

    First, the formal diplomatic language of "recognition" is traditionally used by one state with respect to another state. It is literally meaningless for a non-state to "recognize" a state. Moreover, in diplomacy, such recognition is supposed to be mutual. In order to earn its own recognition, Israel would have to simultaneously recognize the state of Palestine. This it steadfastly refuses to do (and for some reason, there are no high-minded newspaper editorials demanding that it do so).

    Second, which Israel, precisely, are the Palestinians being asked to "recognize?" Israel has stubbornly refused to declare its own borders. So, territorially speaking, "Israel" is an open-ended concept. Are the Palestinians to recognize the Israel that ends at the lines proposed by the 1947 U.N. Partition Plan? Or the one that extends to the 1949 Armistice Line (the de facto border that resulted from the 1948 war)? Or does Israel include the West Bank and East Jerusalem, which it has occupied in violation of international law for 40 years — and which maps in its school textbooks show as part of "Israel"?

    For that matter, why should the Palestinians recognize an Israel that refuses to accept international law, submit to U.N. resolutions or readmit the Palestinians wrongfully expelled from their homes in 1948 and barred from returning ever since?

    If none of these questions are easy to answer, why are such demands being made of the Palestinians? And why is nothing demanded of Israel in turn?

    Orwell was right. It is much easier to recycle meaningless phrases than to ask — let alone to answer — difficult questions. But recycling these empty phrases serves a purpose. Endlessly repeating the mantra that the Palestinians don’t recognize Israel helps paint Israel as an innocent victim, politely asking to be recognized but being rebuffed by its cruel enemies.

    Actually, it asks even more. Israel wants the Palestinians, half of whom were driven from their homeland so that a Jewish state could be created in 1948, to recognize not merely that it exists (which is undeniable) but that it is "right" that it exists — that it was right for them to have been dispossessed of their homes, their property and their livelihoods so that a Jewish state could be created on their land. The Palestinians are not the world’s first dispossessed people, but they are the first to be asked to legitimize what happened to them.

    A just peace will require Israelis and Palestinians to reconcile and recognize each other’s rights. It will not require that Palestinians give their moral seal of approval to the catastrophe that befell them. Meaningless at best, cynical and manipulative at worst, such a demand may suit Israel’s purposes, but it does not serve The Times or its readers...
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,049
    As much I support any countries right to exist, yes. But I do not support any country assuming they have a right to exercise imperialism.

    And I definitely support the Earth's right to exist.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • Last-12-ExitLast-12-Exit Posts: 8,661
    Yes, but not to murder Palestinian civilians.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited July 2014
    They have a right to exist within their legal borders. They have no right to steal land belonging to their neighbors.

    Regardless, the question is fucking stupid, cynical and provocative. The Israeli's aren't the ones having their land stolen from under them. They also aren't being humiliated and terrorized on a daily basis.

    Do you support Palestine's right to exist? The legal foundation of Israel is based in the premise that all of the land outside of that allocated to the Israeli's by the partition resolution was to belong to the Palestinians, upon which they would establish their own homeland. So if you don't support Palestine's right to exist, then you're 'delegitimizing' Israel.

    At the same time, nobody should have to recognize Israel as a Jewish state, for the simple reason that nobody should have to condone racism.
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    I wish both sides would just live and let live. Neither is very favorable in my eyes.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • PhillyCrownOfThornsPhillyCrownOfThorns Posts: 690
    For one of the few times since I have sparred with Byrnzie, dare I agree with him on I over half of his written words. There is hope for peace! Common ground!
    9.29.96, 8.28.98, 9.1.00, 7.5.03, 9.30.05, 6.1.06, 6.19.08, 6.20.08, 6.24.08, 10.27.09, 10.28.09, 10.30.09, 5.20.10, 9.3.11, 9.4.11, 9.2.12, 7.19.13...

    2013- Brooklyn2, Philly1, Philly2, NOLA
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    mickeyrat said:

    ogre1213 said:

    Idris said:

    What does that even mean? Exist? Where? How? In what capacity?

    Surely Israel in her current state should not be around.

    Do you think the jews deserve any land at all?
    what is your point? they were allocated land during the formation of Israel, then seized more during the 1967 war . And have since increased settlements in areas stolen BEYOND that.

    Just how much land do they want? what of the folks who were already there? How much do they get? What kind of compensation for destroyed homes, groves, etc? What of those displaced in 1948? What about them? how much do they get?
    Micky....wow great post ! after reading it I started to think about the comments of "so called" stolen land in America and wondered how people can complain about the history of America and turn right around and support this argument...good for some but not for others ? it seems the world from day one of human existance has been in a battle for land or hunting grounds or even a cave for that matter, it seems that people choose sides from their heart's reather than truth or logic.........yea I'm tweeking,way tooooo much coffee. :))


    Godfather.
  • Thirty Bills UnpaidThirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    Godfather. said:

    mickeyrat said:

    ogre1213 said:

    Idris said:

    What does that even mean? Exist? Where? How? In what capacity?

    Surely Israel in her current state should not be around.

    Do you think the jews deserve any land at all?
    what is your point? they were allocated land during the formation of Israel, then seized more during the 1967 war . And have since increased settlements in areas stolen BEYOND that.

    Just how much land do they want? what of the folks who were already there? How much do they get? What kind of compensation for destroyed homes, groves, etc? What of those displaced in 1948? What about them? how much do they get?
    Micky....wow great post ! after reading it I started to think about the comments of "so called" stolen land in America and wondered how people can complain about the history of America and turn right around and support this argument...good for some but not for others ? it seems the world from day one of human existance has been in a battle for land or hunting grounds or even a cave for that matter, it seems that people choose sides from their heart's reather than truth or logic.........yea I'm tweeking,way tooooo much coffee. :))


    Godfather.
    Why do you emphasize "so called' as you did when you spoke of America being stolen from its original inhabitants?

    Do you deny that Europeans took the land from the native people by force?
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,604
    in his way ,thirty , I think he is exposing the hypocrisy from some in the states in regards to our history and current events around the world. Not a bad thing.

    Thats my read anyway.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • benjsbenjs Posts: 9,150
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    Godfather. said:

    mickeyrat said:

    ogre1213 said:

    Idris said:

    What does that even mean? Exist? Where? How? In what capacity?

    Surely Israel in her current state should not be around.

    Do you think the jews deserve any land at all?
    what is your point? they were allocated land during the formation of Israel, then seized more during the 1967 war . And have since increased settlements in areas stolen BEYOND that.

    Just how much land do they want? what of the folks who were already there? How much do they get? What kind of compensation for destroyed homes, groves, etc? What of those displaced in 1948? What about them? how much do they get?
    Micky....wow great post ! after reading it I started to think about the comments of "so called" stolen land in America and wondered how people can complain about the history of America and turn right around and support this argument...good for some but not for others ? it seems the world from day one of human existance has been in a battle for land or hunting grounds or even a cave for that matter, it seems that people choose sides from their heart's reather than truth or logic.........yea I'm tweeking,way tooooo much coffee. :))


    Godfather.
    Why do you emphasize "so called' as you did when you spoke of America being stolen from its original inhabitants?

    Do you deny that Europeans took the land from the native people by force?
    If it's anything like Canada's stolen land story, I'm sure it was a perfectly fair trade of thousands of acres of land in exchange for a few beaver pelts and alcohol to introduce a new disease to a People predisposed to it already. And because I'm not a fan of vagueness or ambiguity - **MASSIVE SARCASM**.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • rr165892rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    Godfather. said:

    mickeyrat said:

    ogre1213 said:

    Idris said:

    What does that even mean? Exist? Where? How? In what capacity?

    Surely Israel in her current state should not be around.

    Do you think the jews deserve any land at all?
    what is your point? they were allocated land during the formation of Israel, then seized more during the 1967 war . And have since increased settlements in areas stolen BEYOND that.

    Just how much land do they want? what of the folks who were already there? How much do they get? What kind of compensation for destroyed homes, groves, etc? What of those displaced in 1948? What about them? how much do they get?
    Micky....wow great post ! after reading it I started to think about the comments of "so called" stolen land in America and wondered how people can complain about the history of America and turn right around and support this argument...good for some but not for others ? it seems the world from day one of human existance has been in a battle for land or hunting grounds or even a cave for that matter, it seems that people choose sides from their heart's reather than truth or logic.........yea I'm tweeking,way tooooo much coffee. :))


    Godfather.
    Who isn't seeking a sweeter cave GF ?
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    Godfather. said:

    mickeyrat said:

    ogre1213 said:

    Idris said:

    What does that even mean? Exist? Where? How? In what capacity?

    Surely Israel in her current state should not be around.

    Do you think the jews deserve any land at all?
    what is your point? they were allocated land during the formation of Israel, then seized more during the 1967 war . And have since increased settlements in areas stolen BEYOND that.

    Just how much land do they want? what of the folks who were already there? How much do they get? What kind of compensation for destroyed homes, groves, etc? What of those displaced in 1948? What about them? how much do they get?
    Micky....wow great post ! after reading it I started to think about the comments of "so called" stolen land in America and wondered how people can complain about the history of America and turn right around and support this argument...good for some but not for others ? it seems the world from day one of human existance has been in a battle for land or hunting grounds or even a cave for that matter, it seems that people choose sides from their heart's reather than truth or logic.........yea I'm tweeking,way tooooo much coffee. :))


    Godfather.
    Why do you emphasize "so called' as you did when you spoke of America being stolen from its original inhabitants?

    Do you deny that Europeans took the land from the native people by force?
    it was bought with cash-beads-whisky-pelts and what ever else was up for barter and yes it was also taken by military action,why is that so hard to understand ? the indians fought and killed each other for land and hunting grounds,I'm not saying that was the right way but it is the human way it seems ..that is of corse unless you are singeling out white Euro Americans but if you will falt one race you have to falt them all,we as humans tend to fight for what we want rather than give up and world history proves that.

    Godfather.

  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    rr165892 said:

    Godfather. said:

    mickeyrat said:

    ogre1213 said:

    Idris said:

    What does that even mean? Exist? Where? How? In what capacity?

    Surely Israel in her current state should not be around.

    Do you think the jews deserve any land at all?
    what is your point? they were allocated land during the formation of Israel, then seized more during the 1967 war . And have since increased settlements in areas stolen BEYOND that.

    Just how much land do they want? what of the folks who were already there? How much do they get? What kind of compensation for destroyed homes, groves, etc? What of those displaced in 1948? What about them? how much do they get?
    Micky....wow great post ! after reading it I started to think about the comments of "so called" stolen land in America and wondered how people can complain about the history of America and turn right around and support this argument...good for some but not for others ? it seems the world from day one of human existance has been in a battle for land or hunting grounds or even a cave for that matter, it seems that people choose sides from their heart's reather than truth or logic.........yea I'm tweeking,way tooooo much coffee. :))


    Godfather.
    Who isn't seeking a sweeter cave GF ?
    hahhahhahhaha true !

    Godfather.

  • Thirty Bills UnpaidThirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    benjs said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    Godfather. said:

    mickeyrat said:

    ogre1213 said:

    Idris said:

    What does that even mean? Exist? Where? How? In what capacity?

    Surely Israel in her current state should not be around.

    Do you think the jews deserve any land at all?
    what is your point? they were allocated land during the formation of Israel, then seized more during the 1967 war . And have since increased settlements in areas stolen BEYOND that.

    Just how much land do they want? what of the folks who were already there? How much do they get? What kind of compensation for destroyed homes, groves, etc? What of those displaced in 1948? What about them? how much do they get?
    Micky....wow great post ! after reading it I started to think about the comments of "so called" stolen land in America and wondered how people can complain about the history of America and turn right around and support this argument...good for some but not for others ? it seems the world from day one of human existance has been in a battle for land or hunting grounds or even a cave for that matter, it seems that people choose sides from their heart's reather than truth or logic.........yea I'm tweeking,way tooooo much coffee. :))


    Godfather.
    Why do you emphasize "so called' as you did when you spoke of America being stolen from its original inhabitants?

    Do you deny that Europeans took the land from the native people by force?
    If it's anything like Canada's stolen land story, I'm sure it was a perfectly fair trade of thousands of acres of land in exchange for a few beaver pelts and alcohol to introduce a new disease to a People predisposed to it already. And because I'm not a fan of vagueness or ambiguity - **MASSIVE SARCASM**.
    Canada has its blemishes as well. But I don't deny or sugar coat them.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Thirty Bills UnpaidThirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    Godfather. said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    Godfather. said:

    mickeyrat said:

    ogre1213 said:

    Idris said:

    What does that even mean? Exist? Where? How? In what capacity?

    Surely Israel in her current state should not be around.

    Do you think the jews deserve any land at all?
    ?
    Micky....wow great post ! after reading it I started to think about the comments of "so called" stolen land in America and wondered how people can complain about the history of America and turn right around and support this argument...good for some but not for others ? it seems the world from day one of human existance has been in a battle for land or hunting grounds or even a cave for that matter, it seems that people choose sides from their heart's reather than truth or logic.........yea I'm tweeking,way tooooo much coffee. :))


    Godfather.
    Why do you emphasize "so called' as you did when you spoke of America being stolen from its original inhabitants?

    Do you deny that Europeans took the land from the native people by force?
    it was bought with cash-beads-whisky-pelts and what ever else was up for barter and yes it was also taken by military action,why is that so hard to understand ? the indians fought and killed each other for land and hunting grounds,I'm not saying that was the right way but it is the human way it seems ..that is of corse unless you are singeling out white Euro Americans but if you will falt one race you have to falt them all,we as humans tend to fight for what we want rather than give up and world history proves that.

    Godfather.

    It's not hard to understand. To that, I'd say why is it so hard to acknowledge?

    To the rest of your post, there's some truth in there that some might not wish to acknowledge. And as well (I gotta say it)... Gawd there's a lot of spelling errors. I know you don't give a shit, but doesn't your computer have auto-correct or notify you of 'dicey' words? I get the impression you're getting by with a Commodore Vic 20. :D
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • SivanMeriliSivanMerili Posts: 133
    What a horrifying question.
    Do you really got the nerves to even question my right to exsist?!

    Israel = any israeli who lives in it borders; christians, muslimes, jews, circassians, bedouins, druzes, ethaists.
    All are servimg in the IDF (those who are not jews dont have to)
    Are working in israel.
    Geting education in Israel.
    Having social life.
    Making love, fuck some more, work, love, work, love. Peace peace peace.
    DO YOU REALY GOT THE NERVES TO QUESTION MORE THAN 7M
    PEOPLE RIGHT TO EXIST IN THEIR COUNTRY?!

    Dose any country in the world have the right to exist?
    Lets talk about that.
    And please do detail the name of every country, and why they have the right to exist or not..
    Open the worlds map.
    Good luck with the homework.
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,049
    SivanMerili said:

    What a horrifying question.
    Do you really got the nerves to even question my right to exsist?!

    Israel = any israeli who lives in it borders; christians, muslimes, jews, circassians, bedouins, druzes, ethaists.
    All are servimg in the IDF (those who are not jews dont have to)
    Are working in israel.
    Geting education in Israel.
    Having social life.
    Making love, fuck some more, work, love, work, love. Peace peace peace.
    DO YOU REALY GOT THE NERVES TO QUESTION MORE THAN 7M
    PEOPLE RIGHT TO EXIST IN THEIR COUNTRY?!

    Dose any country in the world have the right to exist?
    Lets talk about that.
    And please do detail the name of every country, and why they have the right to exist or not..
    Open the worlds map.
    Good luck with the homework.

    It really is an absurd question but don't worry, I don't think anybody here really questions Israel's right to exist. If they do, they are probably bating. My advice: don't take the bate.

    By they way, I think the world would love to see your country working hard for "Peace peace peace".

    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • SivanMeriliSivanMerili Posts: 133
    Simple question:
    DO YOU SUPPORT TURKEY's RIGHT TO EXSIST?


Sign In or Register to comment.