Read the headline bro. It's like if I saw you cutting into a nice aged porterhouse after you spewed your hatred toward meat eaters time and time again on the boards.
Read the headline bro. It's like if I saw you cutting into a nice aged porterhouse after you spewed your hatred toward meat eaters time and time again on the boards.
But gun control =/= not being able to be in possession of or not be able to own a gun.
It's like if you saw me cutting into a nice aged porterhouse after I spewed hatred towards regulations regarding freezers to store meat in not being strict enough.
Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
Wait, the two of you are proclaiming that if someone breaks into my house illegally and takes them illegally I am partly to blame if those stolen firearms aren’t in a safe?
Yes, of course. Any gun owner has a responsibility to take particular care with it. Are you actually claiming that’s not the case? It’s a lethal weapon with a decent street value, after all. Any doofus knows a gun would be a target in a burglary.
If guns are left unsecured and are stolen then the person who didn’t secure them is partially responsible. It’s analogous to the situation where, if someone had confidential medical or financial information and they left it unsecured and it was stolen, they would be sanctioned.
I wonder if there is a law on the books where a homeowner must secure their firearms in a safe. I still 100% disagree with your thinking that the gun owner is partially responsible.
If I remember correctly, you have multiple firearms, correct? What do you do when you go on vacation? Leave them laying around the House unsecured? What about on a work day when no one is home? Same? What about when it’s just the kids in the house, maybe with their friends who don’t come from a gun cultured household? Long guns or hand guns? Just casually placed around the house, in case? A corner here, under the bed there, on a shelf here, under a cushion there? I’m really trying to understand this “responsible” gun owner thing. And if they’re for “protection,” why wouldn’t they be locked up or secured when you’re not home? Somebody might chase you into the house or you might surprise a burglar? Wouldn’t it be “safer” to carry on your person? Do you know how many guns you have and where they are? When was the last time you took inventory?
I have multiple firearms. 5 rifles and 9 pistols (4 revolvers and 5 semi-autos) and all are in freestanding safe 6 feet tall and 4 feet wide and 3 feet deep, bolted to my basement floor. (with about 20,000 rounds of assorted ammo) All except one that is , which is in a single gun safe with a fingerprint unlock for easy access. That safe is bolted to the back of a small desk that I use as a nightstand next to the bed. I have a concealed carry permit but don't usually because I'm a fidget and would likely be handling them all the time so I leave them in the safes until I go shooting. I check the safe every 2 weeks or so as I have a dehumidifier in it and need to change out the beads every so often. They were all there and accounted for on Saturday. No children at home, son is off in the USAF.
Do I pass as a responsible gun owner?
But with all this talk, should I bring one to Chicago for the Wrigley shows while I'm there (for protection?) LOL
1996: Randall's Island I, Hartford
1998: MSG I, Hartford
2000: Jones Beach I
2003: Albany, MSG II, Mansfield II & III, Homdel
2004: Boston (VFC) I & II
2006: Albany, Hartford, Boston I and E. Rutherford I
2008: MSG I & II, Hartford, Mansfield II (saw BostonLou in the FRONT ROW!!) EV-NYC II
2010: Hartford
2013 Worcester II, Hartford
2016 Fenway I 2018 Wrigley II, Fenway II
Wait, the two of you are proclaiming that if someone breaks into my house illegally and takes them illegally I am partly to blame if those stolen firearms aren’t in a safe?
Yes, of course. Any gun owner has a responsibility to take particular care with it. Are you actually claiming that’s not the case? It’s a lethal weapon with a decent street value, after all. Any doofus knows a gun would be a target in a burglary.
If guns are left unsecured and are stolen then the person who didn’t secure them is partially responsible. It’s analogous to the situation where, if someone had confidential medical or financial information and they left it unsecured and it was stolen, they would be sanctioned.
I wonder if there is a law on the books where a homeowner must secure their firearms in a safe. I still 100% disagree with your thinking that the gun owner is partially responsible.
If I remember correctly, you have multiple firearms, correct? What do you do when you go on vacation? Leave them laying around the House unsecured? What about on a work day when no one is home? Same? What about when it’s just the kids in the house, maybe with their friends who don’t come from a gun cultured household? Long guns or hand guns? Just casually placed around the house, in case? A corner here, under the bed there, on a shelf here, under a cushion there? I’m really trying to understand this “responsible” gun owner thing. And if they’re for “protection,” why wouldn’t they be locked up or secured when you’re not home? Somebody might chase you into the house or you might surprise a burglar? Wouldn’t it be “safer” to carry on your person? Do you know how many guns you have and where they are? When was the last time you took inventory?
I have multiple firearms. 5 rifles and 9 pistols (4 revolvers and 5 semi-autos) and all are in freestanding safe 6 feet tall and 4 feet wide and 3 feet deep, bolted to my basement floor. (with about 20,000 rounds of assorted ammo) All except one that is , which is in a single gun safe with a fingerprint unlock for easy access. That safe is bolted to the back of a small desk that I use as a nightstand next to the bed. I have a concealed carry permit but don't usually because I'm a fidget and would likely be handling them all the time so I leave them in the safes until I go shooting. I check the safe every 2 weeks or so as I have a dehumidifier in it and need to change out the beads every so often. They were all there and accounted for on Saturday. No children at home, son is off in the USAF.
Do I pass as a responsible gun owner?
But with all this talk, should I bring one to Chicago for the Wrigley shows while I'm there (for protection?) LOL
You do until you aren’t.
Leave the gun at home. Chicago isn’t as scary as some make it out to be.
Wait, the two of you are proclaiming that if someone breaks into my house illegally and takes them illegally I am partly to blame if those stolen firearms aren’t in a safe?
Yes, of course. Any gun owner has a responsibility to take particular care with it. Are you actually claiming that’s not the case? It’s a lethal weapon with a decent street value, after all. Any doofus knows a gun would be a target in a burglary.
If guns are left unsecured and are stolen then the person who didn’t secure them is partially responsible. It’s analogous to the situation where, if someone had confidential medical or financial information and they left it unsecured and it was stolen, they would be sanctioned.
I wonder if there is a law on the books where a homeowner must secure their firearms in a safe. I still 100% disagree with your thinking that the gun owner is partially responsible.
If I remember correctly, you have multiple firearms, correct? What do you do when you go on vacation? Leave them laying around the House unsecured? What about on a work day when no one is home? Same? What about when it’s just the kids in the house, maybe with their friends who don’t come from a gun cultured household? Long guns or hand guns? Just casually placed around the house, in case? A corner here, under the bed there, on a shelf here, under a cushion there? I’m really trying to understand this “responsible” gun owner thing. And if they’re for “protection,” why wouldn’t they be locked up or secured when you’re not home? Somebody might chase you into the house or you might surprise a burglar? Wouldn’t it be “safer” to carry on your person? Do you know how many guns you have and where they are? When was the last time you took inventory?
I have multiple firearms. 5 rifles and 9 pistols (4 revolvers and 5 semi-autos) and all are in freestanding safe 6 feet tall and 4 feet wide and 3 feet deep, bolted to my basement floor. (with about 20,000 rounds of assorted ammo) All except one that is , which is in a single gun safe with a fingerprint unlock for easy access. That safe is bolted to the back of a small desk that I use as a nightstand next to the bed. I have a concealed carry permit but don't usually because I'm a fidget and would likely be handling them all the time so I leave them in the safes until I go shooting. I check the safe every 2 weeks or so as I have a dehumidifier in it and need to change out the beads every so often. They were all there and accounted for on Saturday. No children at home, son is off in the USAF.
Do I pass as a responsible gun owner?
But with all this talk, should I bring one to Chicago for the Wrigley shows while I'm there (for protection?) LOL
You do until you aren’t.
Leave the gun at home. Chicago isn’t as scary as some make it out to be.
Maybe you should start saying “unless you aren’t”, unless you believe that all gun owners eventually become irresponsible. And if that is the case, then I couldn’t care less about your false beliefs.
Just stay out of the south side of Chicago and you are good. That is where the troubles are.
I grew up rurally where a gun was a shovel. You had one in the tractor at all times and were taught gun safety in school in 6th grade by the police. Respect was taught by the police and parents. I also shoot competitively sporting clays and have a few competition guns. But.....I just don't see a need for 30 shells to hunt. No need for that or pistols but I am not saying no to others properly trained and vetted.
Wait, the two of you are proclaiming that if someone breaks into my house illegally and takes them illegally I am partly to blame if those stolen firearms aren’t in a safe?
Yes, of course. Any gun owner has a responsibility to take particular care with it. Are you actually claiming that’s not the case? It’s a lethal weapon with a decent street value, after all. Any doofus knows a gun would be a target in a burglary.
If guns are left unsecured and are stolen then the person who didn’t secure them is partially responsible. It’s analogous to the situation where, if someone had confidential medical or financial information and they left it unsecured and it was stolen, they would be sanctioned.
I wonder if there is a law on the books where a homeowner must secure their firearms in a safe. I still 100% disagree with your thinking that the gun owner is partially responsible.
If I remember correctly, you have multiple firearms, correct? What do you do when you go on vacation? Leave them laying around the House unsecured? What about on a work day when no one is home? Same? What about when it’s just the kids in the house, maybe with their friends who don’t come from a gun cultured household? Long guns or hand guns? Just casually placed around the house, in case? A corner here, under the bed there, on a shelf here, under a cushion there? I’m really trying to understand this “responsible” gun owner thing. And if they’re for “protection,” why wouldn’t they be locked up or secured when you’re not home? Somebody might chase you into the house or you might surprise a burglar? Wouldn’t it be “safer” to carry on your person? Do you know how many guns you have and where they are? When was the last time you took inventory?
I have multiple firearms. 5 rifles and 9 pistols (4 revolvers and 5 semi-autos) and all are in freestanding safe 6 feet tall and 4 feet wide and 3 feet deep, bolted to my basement floor. (with about 20,000 rounds of assorted ammo) All except one that is , which is in a single gun safe with a fingerprint unlock for easy access. That safe is bolted to the back of a small desk that I use as a nightstand next to the bed. I have a concealed carry permit but don't usually because I'm a fidget and would likely be handling them all the time so I leave them in the safes until I go shooting. I check the safe every 2 weeks or so as I have a dehumidifier in it and need to change out the beads every so often. They were all there and accounted for on Saturday. No children at home, son is off in the USAF.
Do I pass as a responsible gun owner?
But with all this talk, should I bring one to Chicago for the Wrigley shows while I'm there (for protection?) LOL
You do until you aren’t.
Leave the gun at home. Chicago isn’t as scary as some make it out to be.
Maybe you should start saying “unless you aren’t”, unless you believe that all gun owners eventually become irresponsible. And if that is the case, then I couldn’t care less about your false beliefs.
Maybe you should think about what I wrote and not project what you think it means?
Wait, the two of you are proclaiming that if someone breaks into my house illegally and takes them illegally I am partly to blame if those stolen firearms aren’t in a safe?
Yes, of course. Any gun owner has a responsibility to take particular care with it. Are you actually claiming that’s not the case? It’s a lethal weapon with a decent street value, after all. Any doofus knows a gun would be a target in a burglary.
If guns are left unsecured and are stolen then the person who didn’t secure them is partially responsible. It’s analogous to the situation where, if someone had confidential medical or financial information and they left it unsecured and it was stolen, they would be sanctioned.
I wonder if there is a law on the books where a homeowner must secure their firearms in a safe. I still 100% disagree with your thinking that the gun owner is partially responsible.
If I remember correctly, you have multiple firearms, correct? What do you do when you go on vacation? Leave them laying around the House unsecured? What about on a work day when no one is home? Same? What about when it’s just the kids in the house, maybe with their friends who don’t come from a gun cultured household? Long guns or hand guns? Just casually placed around the house, in case? A corner here, under the bed there, on a shelf here, under a cushion there? I’m really trying to understand this “responsible” gun owner thing. And if they’re for “protection,” why wouldn’t they be locked up or secured when you’re not home? Somebody might chase you into the house or you might surprise a burglar? Wouldn’t it be “safer” to carry on your person? Do you know how many guns you have and where they are? When was the last time you took inventory?
I have multiple firearms. 5 rifles and 9 pistols (4 revolvers and 5 semi-autos) and all are in freestanding safe 6 feet tall and 4 feet wide and 3 feet deep, bolted to my basement floor. (with about 20,000 rounds of assorted ammo) All except one that is , which is in a single gun safe with a fingerprint unlock for easy access. That safe is bolted to the back of a small desk that I use as a nightstand next to the bed. I have a concealed carry permit but don't usually because I'm a fidget and would likely be handling them all the time so I leave them in the safes until I go shooting. I check the safe every 2 weeks or so as I have a dehumidifier in it and need to change out the beads every so often. They were all there and accounted for on Saturday. No children at home, son is off in the USAF.
Do I pass as a responsible gun owner?
But with all this talk, should I bring one to Chicago for the Wrigley shows while I'm there (for protection?) LOL
You do until you aren’t.
Leave the gun at home. Chicago isn’t as scary as some make it out to be.
Maybe you should start saying “unless you aren’t”, unless you believe that all gun owners eventually become irresponsible. And if that is the case, then I couldn’t care less about your false beliefs.
Maybe you should think about what I wrote and not project what you think it means?
Wait, the two of you are proclaiming that if someone breaks into my house illegally and takes them illegally I am partly to blame if those stolen firearms aren’t in a safe?
Yes, of course. Any gun owner has a responsibility to take particular care with it. Are you actually claiming that’s not the case? It’s a lethal weapon with a decent street value, after all. Any doofus knows a gun would be a target in a burglary.
If guns are left unsecured and are stolen then the person who didn’t secure them is partially responsible. It’s analogous to the situation where, if someone had confidential medical or financial information and they left it unsecured and it was stolen, they would be sanctioned.
I wonder if there is a law on the books where a homeowner must secure their firearms in a safe. I still 100% disagree with your thinking that the gun owner is partially responsible.
If I remember correctly, you have multiple firearms, correct? What do you do when you go on vacation? Leave them laying around the House unsecured? What about on a work day when no one is home? Same? What about when it’s just the kids in the house, maybe with their friends who don’t come from a gun cultured household? Long guns or hand guns? Just casually placed around the house, in case? A corner here, under the bed there, on a shelf here, under a cushion there? I’m really trying to understand this “responsible” gun owner thing. And if they’re for “protection,” why wouldn’t they be locked up or secured when you’re not home? Somebody might chase you into the house or you might surprise a burglar? Wouldn’t it be “safer” to carry on your person? Do you know how many guns you have and where they are? When was the last time you took inventory?
I have multiple firearms. 5 rifles and 9 pistols (4 revolvers and 5 semi-autos) and all are in freestanding safe 6 feet tall and 4 feet wide and 3 feet deep, bolted to my basement floor. (with about 20,000 rounds of assorted ammo) All except one that is , which is in a single gun safe with a fingerprint unlock for easy access. That safe is bolted to the back of a small desk that I use as a nightstand next to the bed. I have a concealed carry permit but don't usually because I'm a fidget and would likely be handling them all the time so I leave them in the safes until I go shooting. I check the safe every 2 weeks or so as I have a dehumidifier in it and need to change out the beads every so often. They were all there and accounted for on Saturday. No children at home, son is off in the USAF.
Do I pass as a responsible gun owner?
But with all this talk, should I bring one to Chicago for the Wrigley shows while I'm there (for protection?) LOL
You do until you aren’t.
Leave the gun at home. Chicago isn’t as scary as some make it out to be.
Maybe you should start saying “unless you aren’t”, unless you believe that all gun owners eventually become irresponsible. And if that is the case, then I couldn’t care less about your false beliefs.
Maybe you should think about what I wrote and not project what you think it means?
You do not need untracable weapons when no one wants to cooperate with the cops who they somehow deem a greater menace.
The article I read stated 44 shootings. Either way, shootings are going to happen as long as guns exist. I like how dismissive you are of any issues that may arise from 3D printed guns though. Nice deflection. Let's continue to do nothing and keep making and selling guns as much as possible. Yeah guns!!!
You know what gave this knowledge to people who didn't even know this existed (and it already did)? The media. Why give the nut jobs of the world that info.
Wait, the two of you are proclaiming that if someone breaks into my house illegally and takes them illegally I am partly to blame if those stolen firearms aren’t in a safe?
Yes, of course. Any gun owner has a responsibility to take particular care with it. Are you actually claiming that’s not the case? It’s a lethal weapon with a decent street value, after all. Any doofus knows a gun would be a target in a burglary.
If guns are left unsecured and are stolen then the person who didn’t secure them is partially responsible. It’s analogous to the situation where, if someone had confidential medical or financial information and they left it unsecured and it was stolen, they would be sanctioned.
I wonder if there is a law on the books where a homeowner must secure their firearms in a safe. I still 100% disagree with your thinking that the gun owner is partially responsible.
If I remember correctly, you have multiple firearms, correct? What do you do when you go on vacation? Leave them laying around the House unsecured? What about on a work day when no one is home? Same? What about when it’s just the kids in the house, maybe with their friends who don’t come from a gun cultured household? Long guns or hand guns? Just casually placed around the house, in case? A corner here, under the bed there, on a shelf here, under a cushion there? I’m really trying to understand this “responsible” gun owner thing. And if they’re for “protection,” why wouldn’t they be locked up or secured when you’re not home? Somebody might chase you into the house or you might surprise a burglar? Wouldn’t it be “safer” to carry on your person? Do you know how many guns you have and where they are? When was the last time you took inventory?
I have multiple firearms. 5 rifles and 9 pistols (4 revolvers and 5 semi-autos) and all are in freestanding safe 6 feet tall and 4 feet wide and 3 feet deep, bolted to my basement floor. (with about 20,000 rounds of assorted ammo) All except one that is , which is in a single gun safe with a fingerprint unlock for easy access. That safe is bolted to the back of a small desk that I use as a nightstand next to the bed. I have a concealed carry permit but don't usually because I'm a fidget and would likely be handling them all the time so I leave them in the safes until I go shooting. I check the safe every 2 weeks or so as I have a dehumidifier in it and need to change out the beads every so often. They were all there and accounted for on Saturday. No children at home, son is off in the USAF.
Do I pass as a responsible gun owner?
But with all this talk, should I bring one to Chicago for the Wrigley shows while I'm there (for protection?) LOL
You do until you aren’t.
Leave the gun at home. Chicago isn’t as scary as some make it out to be.
Maybe you should start saying “unless you aren’t”, unless you believe that all gun owners eventually become irresponsible. And if that is the case, then I couldn’t care less about your false beliefs.
Maybe you should think about what I wrote and not project what you think it means?
Wait, the two of you are proclaiming that if someone breaks into my house illegally and takes them illegally I am partly to blame if those stolen firearms aren’t in a safe?
Yes, of course. Any gun owner has a responsibility to take particular care with it. Are you actually claiming that’s not the case? It’s a lethal weapon with a decent street value, after all. Any doofus knows a gun would be a target in a burglary.
If guns are left unsecured and are stolen then the person who didn’t secure them is partially responsible. It’s analogous to the situation where, if someone had confidential medical or financial information and they left it unsecured and it was stolen, they would be sanctioned.
I wonder if there is a law on the books where a homeowner must secure their firearms in a safe. I still 100% disagree with your thinking that the gun owner is partially responsible.
If I remember correctly, you have multiple firearms, correct? What do you do when you go on vacation? Leave them laying around the House unsecured? What about on a work day when no one is home? Same? What about when it’s just the kids in the house, maybe with their friends who don’t come from a gun cultured household? Long guns or hand guns? Just casually placed around the house, in case? A corner here, under the bed there, on a shelf here, under a cushion there? I’m really trying to understand this “responsible” gun owner thing. And if they’re for “protection,” why wouldn’t they be locked up or secured when you’re not home? Somebody might chase you into the house or you might surprise a burglar? Wouldn’t it be “safer” to carry on your person? Do you know how many guns you have and where they are? When was the last time you took inventory?
I have multiple firearms. 5 rifles and 9 pistols (4 revolvers and 5 semi-autos) and all are in freestanding safe 6 feet tall and 4 feet wide and 3 feet deep, bolted to my basement floor. (with about 20,000 rounds of assorted ammo) All except one that is , which is in a single gun safe with a fingerprint unlock for easy access. That safe is bolted to the back of a small desk that I use as a nightstand next to the bed. I have a concealed carry permit but don't usually because I'm a fidget and would likely be handling them all the time so I leave them in the safes until I go shooting. I check the safe every 2 weeks or so as I have a dehumidifier in it and need to change out the beads every so often. They were all there and accounted for on Saturday. No children at home, son is off in the USAF.
Do I pass as a responsible gun owner?
But with all this talk, should I bring one to Chicago for the Wrigley shows while I'm there (for protection?) LOL
You do until you aren’t.
Leave the gun at home. Chicago isn’t as scary as some make it out to be.
Maybe you should start saying “unless you aren’t”, unless you believe that all gun owners eventually become irresponsible. And if that is the case, then I couldn’t care less about your false beliefs.
Maybe you should think about what I wrote and not project what you think it means?
Maybe you should clarify...
I think my answer was clear enough.
So, what you are saying is...
What a great fucking country that it’s public transit believes it needs these signs.
The technology still has many limitations for creating completely reliable weapons from scratch, but some enthusiasts have shown how ordinary weapons can be modified with 3-D-printed parts to create untraceable guns.
Pretty sad. There is also very little follow up up or investigation into why individuals who are denied buying a firearm for failing the background check are trying to buy guns in the first place.
We need to do better.
If hope can grow from dirt like me, it can be done. - EV
Minimum portion of ATF inspections of licensed (“responsible”, until they’re not-my words) firearm dealers last year that found violations: 1/3.
Portion that lead to the revocation or denial of a license: 1/250.
Source: ATF, courtesy of Harper’s Index
Without studying the data on the instances where violations were noted and the severity of each, this doesn't seem that out of proportion. It's like pulling the data for those cited for traffic infractions and then finding that less than 1% of violations resulted in loss of a driver's license.
Minimum portion of ATF inspections of licensed (“responsible”, until they’re not-my words) firearm dealers last year that found violations: 1/3.
Portion that lead to the revocation or denial of a license: 1/250.
Source: ATF, courtesy of Harper’s Index
Without studying the data on the instances where violations were noted and the severity of each, this doesn't seem that out of proportion. It's like pulling the data for those cited for traffic infractions and then finding that less than 1% of violations resulted in loss of a driver's license.
I would also like to know how/why the data was collected. Were these random audits, or were they auditing FFL dealers that had complaints/concerns/past violations? I know several FFL dealers that have never been audited and the only documentation they are required to have is paper (no electronic database or reporting requirements). Meaningful stats until they are not...
Minimum portion of ATF inspections of licensed (“responsible”, until they’re not-my words) firearm dealers last year that found violations: 1/3.
Portion that lead to the revocation or denial of a license: 1/250.
Source: ATF, courtesy of Harper’s Index
Without studying the data on the instances where violations were noted and the severity of each, this doesn't seem that out of proportion. It's like pulling the data for those cited for traffic infractions and then finding that less than 1% of violations resulted in loss of a driver's license.
I would also like to know how/why the data was collected. Were these random audits, or were they auditing FFL dealers that had complaints/concerns/past violations? I know several FFL dealers that have never been audited and the only documentation they are required to have is paper (no electronic database or reporting requirements). Meaningful stats until they are not...
There were 134,738 FFLs in fiscal year 2017. This includes firearm licenses for dealers, manufacturers, importers and collectors. During that time, ATF conducted 11,009 firearms compliance inspections. In 2017, less than half of 1% of FFLs were revoked.
Part of ATF’s core mission is to protect the public from violent crime involving the use of firearms. The FFLs who willfully violate the laws and regulations preventing ATF from accomplishing its mission to protect the public are few. Willfulness is not defined in the regulations, but is defined by case law to mean the intentional disregard of a known legal duty or plain indifference to a licensee’s legal obligations. In the case of an FFL who has willfully violated the law, has shown an intentional disregard for regulatory requirements or has knowingly participated in criminal acts, revocation often becomes the only viable option. It should be noted, however, that ATF does not revoke for every violation it finds and that revocation actions are seldom initiated until after an FFL has been educated on the requirements of the laws and regulations and given an opportunity to voluntarily comply with them but has failed to do so. Violations commonly cited in revocation cases include failure to account for firearms, failure to verify and document purchaser eligibility, failure to maintain records requisite for successful firearms tracing and failure to report multiple sales of handguns.
Only 7% of FFLs in 2015 were auditied. Less than 10,000 of the above number if it held true.
Minimum portion of ATF inspections of licensed (“responsible”, until they’re not-my words) firearm dealers last year that found violations: 1/3.
Portion that lead to the revocation or denial of a license: 1/250.
Source: ATF, courtesy of Harper’s Index
Without studying the data on the instances where violations were noted and the severity of each, this doesn't seem that out of proportion. It's like pulling the data for those cited for traffic infractions and then finding that less than 1% of violations resulted in loss of a driver's license.
I would also like to know how/why the data was collected. Were these random audits, or were they auditing FFL dealers that had complaints/concerns/past violations? I know several FFL dealers that have never been audited and the only documentation they are required to have is paper (no electronic database or reporting requirements). Meaningful stats until they are not...
There were 134,738 FFLs in fiscal year 2017. This includes firearm licenses for dealers, manufacturers, importers and collectors. During that time, ATF conducted 11,009 firearms compliance inspections. In 2017, less than half of 1% of FFLs were revoked.
Part of ATF’s core mission is to protect the public from violent crime involving the use of firearms. The FFLs who willfully violate the laws and regulations preventing ATF from accomplishing its mission to protect the public are few. Willfulness is not defined in the regulations, but is defined by case law to mean the intentional disregard of a known legal duty or plain indifference to a licensee’s legal obligations. In the case of an FFL who has willfully violated the law, has shown an intentional disregard for regulatory requirements or has knowingly participated in criminal acts, revocation often becomes the only viable option. It should be noted, however, that ATF does not revoke for every violation it finds and that revocation actions are seldom initiated until after an FFL has been educated on the requirements of the laws and regulations and given an opportunity to voluntarily comply with them but has failed to do so. Violations commonly cited in revocation cases include failure to account for firearms, failure to verify and document purchaser eligibility, failure to maintain records requisite for successful firearms tracing and failure to report multiple sales of handguns.
Only 7% of FFLs in 2015 were auditied. Less than 10,000 of the above number if it held true.
So the violations were based on record keeping for the most part...or failure to report multiple purchases? Sounds good enough for government work...sounds like the ATF is doing a crappy job regulating current laws. “Interesting” until it is not
Pro-fun folks during discussion - “I’m all for stronger background checks and better enforcement of laws around gun purchases”
Pro-gun folks when provided information on inadequate background checks and violations of gun purchase laws - “ehhh, it’s only record keeping.... not very interesting”
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
Minimum portion of ATF inspections of licensed (“responsible”, until they’re not-my words) firearm dealers last year that found violations: 1/3.
Portion that lead to the revocation or denial of a license: 1/250.
Source: ATF, courtesy of Harper’s Index
Without studying the data on the instances where violations were noted and the severity of each, this doesn't seem that out of proportion. It's like pulling the data for those cited for traffic infractions and then finding that less than 1% of violations resulted in loss of a driver's license.
I would also like to know how/why the data was collected. Were these random audits, or were they auditing FFL dealers that had complaints/concerns/past violations? I know several FFL dealers that have never been audited and the only documentation they are required to have is paper (no electronic database or reporting requirements). Meaningful stats until they are not...
There were 134,738 FFLs in fiscal year 2017. This includes firearm licenses for dealers, manufacturers, importers and collectors. During that time, ATF conducted 11,009 firearms compliance inspections. In 2017, less than half of 1% of FFLs were revoked.
Part of ATF’s core mission is to protect the public from violent crime involving the use of firearms. The FFLs who willfully violate the laws and regulations preventing ATF from accomplishing its mission to protect the public are few. Willfulness is not defined in the regulations, but is defined by case law to mean the intentional disregard of a known legal duty or plain indifference to a licensee’s legal obligations. In the case of an FFL who has willfully violated the law, has shown an intentional disregard for regulatory requirements or has knowingly participated in criminal acts, revocation often becomes the only viable option. It should be noted, however, that ATF does not revoke for every violation it finds and that revocation actions are seldom initiated until after an FFL has been educated on the requirements of the laws and regulations and given an opportunity to voluntarily comply with them but has failed to do so. Violations commonly cited in revocation cases include failure to account for firearms, failure to verify and document purchaser eligibility, failure to maintain records requisite for successful firearms tracing and failure to report multiple sales of handguns.
Only 7% of FFLs in 2015 were auditied. Less than 10,000 of the above number if it held true.
So the violations were based on record keeping for the most part...or failure to report multiple purchases? Sounds good enough for government work...sounds like the ATF is doing a crappy job regulating current laws. “Interesting” until it is not
Minimum portion of ATF inspections of licensed (“responsible”, until they’re not-my words) firearm dealers last year that found violations: 1/3.
Portion that lead to the revocation or denial of a license: 1/250.
Source: ATF, courtesy of Harper’s Index
Without studying the data on the instances where violations were noted and the severity of each, this doesn't seem that out of proportion. It's like pulling the data for those cited for traffic infractions and then finding that less than 1% of violations resulted in loss of a driver's license.
I would also like to know how/why the data was collected. Were these random audits, or were they auditing FFL dealers that had complaints/concerns/past violations? I know several FFL dealers that have never been audited and the only documentation they are required to have is paper (no electronic database or reporting requirements). Meaningful stats until they are not...
There were 134,738 FFLs in fiscal year 2017. This includes firearm licenses for dealers, manufacturers, importers and collectors. During that time, ATF conducted 11,009 firearms compliance inspections. In 2017, less than half of 1% of FFLs were revoked.
Part of ATF’s core mission is to protect the public from violent crime involving the use of firearms. The FFLs who willfully violate the laws and regulations preventing ATF from accomplishing its mission to protect the public are few. Willfulness is not defined in the regulations, but is defined by case law to mean the intentional disregard of a known legal duty or plain indifference to a licensee’s legal obligations. In the case of an FFL who has willfully violated the law, has shown an intentional disregard for regulatory requirements or has knowingly participated in criminal acts, revocation often becomes the only viable option. It should be noted, however, that ATF does not revoke for every violation it finds and that revocation actions are seldom initiated until after an FFL has been educated on the requirements of the laws and regulations and given an opportunity to voluntarily comply with them but has failed to do so. Violations commonly cited in revocation cases include failure to account for firearms, failure to verify and document purchaser eligibility, failure to maintain records requisite for successful firearms tracing and failure to report multiple sales of handguns.
Only 7% of FFLs in 2015 were auditied. Less than 10,000 of the above number if it held true.
So the violations were based on record keeping for the most part...or failure to report multiple purchases? Sounds good enough for government work...sounds like the ATF is doing a crappy job regulating current laws. “Interesting” until it is not
7% get audited. It should be 100%. So your friends can feel special and like they belong.
Out of curiosity....anyone ever read papers like Manchester Evening News and see the brutality of murders there? Without guns? I am just looking for MU info and I have to go to the front page and there is daily, some brutal stabbing, baseball bat, etc. murder there. So yes you can stop gun murders by taking guns but you are not going to stop people from killing. Just like you are not going to stop mass killings if they want to drive a truck through a crowd. You cannot legislate everything.
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It's like if you saw me cutting into a nice aged porterhouse after I spewed hatred towards regulations regarding freezers to store meat in not being strict enough.
www.headstonesband.com
Do I pass as a responsible gun owner?
But with all this talk, should I bring one to Chicago for the Wrigley shows while I'm there (for protection?) LOL
1998: MSG I, Hartford
2000: Jones Beach I
2003: Albany, MSG II, Mansfield II & III, Homdel
2004: Boston (VFC) I & II
2006: Albany, Hartford, Boston I and E. Rutherford I
2008: MSG I & II, Hartford, Mansfield II (saw BostonLou in the FRONT ROW!!) EV-NYC II
2010: Hartford
2013 Worcester II, Hartford
2016 Fenway I
2018 Wrigley II, Fenway II
Leave the gun at home. Chicago isn’t as scary as some make it out to be.
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I grew up rurally where a gun was a shovel. You had one in the tractor at all times and were taught gun safety in school in 6th grade by the police. Respect was taught by the police and parents. I also shoot competitively sporting clays and have a few competition guns. But.....I just don't see a need for 30 shells to hunt. No need for that or pistols but I am not saying no to others properly trained and vetted.
Lots Lots Lots of shows.....
2018 - Seattle 2/Missoula
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Portion that lead to the revocation or denial of a license: 1/250.
Source: ATF, courtesy of Harper’s Index
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We need to do better.
Meaningful stats until they are not...
There were 134,738 FFLs in fiscal year 2017. This includes firearm licenses for dealers, manufacturers, importers and collectors. During that time, ATF conducted 11,009 firearms compliance inspections. In 2017, less than half of 1% of FFLs were revoked.
Part of ATF’s core mission is to protect the public from violent crime involving the use of firearms. The FFLs who willfully violate the laws and regulations preventing ATF from accomplishing its mission to protect the public are few. Willfulness is not defined in the regulations, but is defined by case law to mean the intentional disregard of a known legal duty or plain indifference to a licensee’s legal obligations. In the case of an FFL who has willfully violated the law, has shown an intentional disregard for regulatory requirements or has knowingly participated in criminal acts, revocation often becomes the only viable option. It should be noted, however, that ATF does not revoke for every violation it finds and that revocation actions are seldom initiated until after an FFL has been educated on the requirements of the laws and regulations and given an opportunity to voluntarily comply with them but has failed to do so. Violations commonly cited in revocation cases include failure to account for firearms, failure to verify and document purchaser eligibility, failure to maintain records requisite for successful firearms tracing and failure to report multiple sales of handguns.
Only 7% of FFLs in 2015 were auditied. Less than 10,000 of the above number if it held true.
https://www.thetrace.org/2015/10/gun-store-atf-inspection/
https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/fact-sheet/fact-sheet-federal-firearms-compliance-inspections-and-revocation-process
I'm sure there's more information here:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/03/us/atf-gun-store-violations.html
"Responsible" until they're not.
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“Interesting” until it is not
Pro-gun folks when provided information on inadequate background checks and violations of gun purchase laws - “ehhh, it’s only record keeping.... not very interesting”
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Lots Lots Lots of shows.....
2018 - Seattle 2/Missoula