America's Gun Violence

PJ_Soul

Degeneratefk said:

PJ_Soul said:

Degeneratefk said:

The idea that active shooter training will do anything to reduce active shooter deaths is ludicrous. Active shooter training does not stop a loon from buying a gun. Active shooter training doesn't protect night clubs. Active shooter training does not prevent anything. It's just talk. Every American citizen can go through hours of active shooter training and we will still have mass shootings.

Well, if it involves the public, I think it might at least kind of condition people to hide or hit the ground instead of panicking and making themselves more of a target and to do things that will maximize their chances of survival. Say a part of the training tells people to play dead, or to hide in such-and-such kind of a spot vs some other kind of spot, don't run yourself into dead ends if you can help it, don't just stand there like an idiot screaming "oh my god!!", how to handle yourself in a human stampede so you don't get trampled, cues that tell you whether running or hiding is the best chance for survival, etc etc. Never underestimate the ability of random people caught off guard in dangerous situations to make stupid decisions or to not make any decisions at all unless they are specifically prepared to do so. No one is suggesting that active shooter training will stop mass shootings obviously ... in fact, they suggest the exact opposite. The whole point is to train people to handle mass shootings so that they can be a survivor.

The problem is that 1 two hour class random people may take will do nothing if 1) the random people retain the information. 2) the random people practice/drill the practical solutions taught. And 3) you could be a survival expert and end up dead from a number of reason. You could be the first one shot. The "untrained" people around you could get you killed.

I'm not saying goes it's a bad idea for people to inform themselves. I'm saying the problem isnt that people don't know what to do during an active shooter scenario. The problem is the ease by which people can get guns to act out these heinous acts.

A training class can indeed do something. I'm not suggesting it will save everyone, not even close. If such things can save just a few people it's worth it, no?
I am aware that there is a problem with people easily getting guns to do these things.... but sorry, that isn't the conversation right here, is it? I thought we were talking about mass shooting awareness training.

PJPOWER

PJ_Soul said:

PJPOWER said:

PJ_Soul said:

Well if everyone were really doing their jobs anywhere close to well, there would be a whole lot fewer armed criminals in the first place. But keep in mind that the events that really fuel this debate more than anything else - the mass shootings - are usually committed by people who weren't criminals until the day they committed a mass murder.

Even still, there are smart and unsmart things that the general public should do and can do when introduced to those criminals that help themselves and often others survive. Lets do that while the government is in deadlock. Our city has already started active shooter awareness trainings, usually organized by law enforcement or someone highly trained in such situations. I bet your city does them too...

What, active shooter training for the public??? Or you mean just police training exercises (which yeah, sure, just about all police forces train for that now I would imagine). If you mean for the public, I guess yeah, kind of. Universities kind of do it anyway. I don't think anyone is actually signing up for such things. Campus security forces stage it... but TBH the public isn't even really involved in that. They just tell us that they are training for it so that no one thinks there is a real active shooting happening. Last time they did this I don't think they asked staff or anything to really participate.

Yeah, for the public. There are all kinds of public informational seminars and trainings like this being offered around here, but people chase financial incentives and they never fill the classes. Although a lot are getting better attendance these days.

PJPOWER

Degeneratefk said:

PJ_Soul said:

Degeneratefk said:

The idea that active shooter training will do anything to reduce active shooter deaths is ludicrous. Active shooter training does not stop a loon from buying a gun. Active shooter training doesn't protect night clubs. Active shooter training does not prevent anything. It's just talk. Every American citizen can go through hours of active shooter training and we will still have mass shootings.

Well, if it involves the public, I think it might at least kind of condition people to hide or hit the ground instead of panicking and making themselves more of a target and to do things that will maximize their chances of survival. Say a part of the training tells people to play dead, or to hide in such-and-such kind of a spot vs some other kind of spot, don't run yourself into dead ends if you can help it, don't just stand there like an idiot screaming "oh my god!!", how to handle yourself in a human stampede so you don't get trampled, cues that tell you whether running or hiding is the best chance for survival, etc etc. Never underestimate the ability of random people caught off guard in dangerous situations to make stupid decisions or to not make any decisions at all unless they are specifically prepared to do so. No one is suggesting that active shooter training will stop mass shootings obviously ... in fact, they suggest the exact opposite. The whole point is to train people to handle mass shootings so that they can be a survivor.

The problem is that 1 two hour class random people may take will do nothing if 1) the random people retain the information. 2) the random people practice/drill the practical solutions taught. And 3) you could be a survival expert and end up dead from a number of reason. You could be the first one shot. The "untrained" people around you could get you killed.

I'm not saying goes it's a bad idea for people to inform themselves. I'm saying the problem isnt that people don't know what to do during an active shooter scenario. The problem is the ease by which people can get guns to act out these heinous acts.

Whatever you think the problem is, we are just not in a place politically to make it happen...maybe even ever. If all you choose to arm yourself with is knowledge, then people need to know. You can effectively and easily reinforce a door with a belt, but if no one in the room knows how to, then how many lives are lost purely do to ignorance?
As far as retaining information, study after study has shown that people revert to their training when in stressful situations...

Degeneratefk

PJPOWER said:

Degeneratefk said:

PJ_Soul said:

Degeneratefk said:

The idea that active shooter training will do anything to reduce active shooter deaths is ludicrous. Active shooter training does not stop a loon from buying a gun. Active shooter training doesn't protect night clubs. Active shooter training does not prevent anything. It's just talk. Every American citizen can go through hours of active shooter training and we will still have mass shootings.

Well, if it involves the public, I think it might at least kind of condition people to hide or hit the ground instead of panicking and making themselves more of a target and to do things that will maximize their chances of survival. Say a part of the training tells people to play dead, or to hide in such-and-such kind of a spot vs some other kind of spot, don't run yourself into dead ends if you can help it, don't just stand there like an idiot screaming "oh my god!!", how to handle yourself in a human stampede so you don't get trampled, cues that tell you whether running or hiding is the best chance for survival, etc etc. Never underestimate the ability of random people caught off guard in dangerous situations to make stupid decisions or to not make any decisions at all unless they are specifically prepared to do so. No one is suggesting that active shooter training will stop mass shootings obviously ... in fact, they suggest the exact opposite. The whole point is to train people to handle mass shootings so that they can be a survivor.

The problem is that 1 two hour class random people may take will do nothing if 1) the random people retain the information. 2) the random people practice/drill the practical solutions taught. And 3) you could be a survival expert and end up dead from a number of reason. You could be the first one shot. The "untrained" people around you could get you killed.

I'm not saying goes it's a bad idea for people to inform themselves. I'm saying the problem isnt that people don't know what to do during an active shooter scenario. The problem is the ease by which people can get guns to act out these heinous acts.

Whatever you think the problem is, we are just not in a place politically to make it happen...maybe even ever. If all you choose to arm yourself with is knowledge, then people need to know. You can effectively and easily reinforce a door with a belt, but if no one in the room knows how to, then how many lives are lost purely do to ignorance?
As far as retaining information, study after study has shown that people revert to their training when in stressful situations...

Of course they do. Taking a seminar in an afternoon is a far cry from training.

PJPOWER

Degeneratefk said:

PJPOWER said:

Degeneratefk said:

PJ_Soul said:

Degeneratefk said:

The idea that active shooter training will do anything to reduce active shooter deaths is ludicrous. Active shooter training does not stop a loon from buying a gun. Active shooter training doesn't protect night clubs. Active shooter training does not prevent anything. It's just talk. Every American citizen can go through hours of active shooter training and we will still have mass shootings.

Well, if it involves the public, I think it might at least kind of condition people to hide or hit the ground instead of panicking and making themselves more of a target and to do things that will maximize their chances of survival. Say a part of the training tells people to play dead, or to hide in such-and-such kind of a spot vs some other kind of spot, don't run yourself into dead ends if you can help it, don't just stand there like an idiot screaming "oh my god!!", how to handle yourself in a human stampede so you don't get trampled, cues that tell you whether running or hiding is the best chance for survival, etc etc. Never underestimate the ability of random people caught off guard in dangerous situations to make stupid decisions or to not make any decisions at all unless they are specifically prepared to do so. No one is suggesting that active shooter training will stop mass shootings obviously ... in fact, they suggest the exact opposite. The whole point is to train people to handle mass shootings so that they can be a survivor.

The problem is that 1 two hour class random people may take will do nothing if 1) the random people retain the information. 2) the random people practice/drill the practical solutions taught. And 3) you could be a survival expert and end up dead from a number of reason. You could be the first one shot. The "untrained" people around you could get you killed.

I'm not saying goes it's a bad idea for people to inform themselves. I'm saying the problem isnt that people don't know what to do during an active shooter scenario. The problem is the ease by which people can get guns to act out these heinous acts.

Whatever you think the problem is, we are just not in a place politically to make it happen...maybe even ever. If all you choose to arm yourself with is knowledge, then people need to know. You can effectively and easily reinforce a door with a belt, but if no one in the room knows how to, then how many lives are lost purely do to ignorance?
As far as retaining information, study after study has shown that people revert to their training when in stressful situations...

Of course they do. Taking a seminar in an afternoon is a far cry from training.

You can get some damn good training in a day actually... There are all kinds out there for the public though. Some are 6 weeks courses, etc.

PJ_Soul

Yeah, plus it actually doesn't take more than a day to receive some information and retain it unless you really aren't very bright. We're not talking about tactical training here unless it's a very specialized class. We're talking about what to do in an emergency kind of training. In most cases, people just need to know what to do and most will actually do it when they need to. Example: I actually never even thought about using a belt to bar a door in an emergency. It simply never occurred to me for some reason. But now that I simply saw that written down here in this thread, I will absolutely think of doing that if necessary now. That only took me the 2 seconds I spent reading that to learn, plus the time it takes to get some details online. While I did that, I found this: http://awesomejelly.com/how-to-use-a-belt-to-barricade-a-door-during-a-shooting/

See, just watching that would teach people enough to actually improve their chances of survival.

mcgruff10

Degeneratefk said:

PJPOWER said:

Degeneratefk said:

PJ_Soul said:

Degeneratefk said:

The idea that active shooter training will do anything to reduce active shooter deaths is ludicrous. Active shooter training does not stop a loon from buying a gun. Active shooter training doesn't protect night clubs. Active shooter training does not prevent anything. It's just talk. Every American citizen can go through hours of active shooter training and we will still have mass shootings.

Well, if it involves the public, I think it might at least kind of condition people to hide or hit the ground instead of panicking and making themselves more of a target and to do things that will maximize their chances of survival. Say a part of the training tells people to play dead, or to hide in such-and-such kind of a spot vs some other kind of spot, don't run yourself into dead ends if you can help it, don't just stand there like an idiot screaming "oh my god!!", how to handle yourself in a human stampede so you don't get trampled, cues that tell you whether running or hiding is the best chance for survival, etc etc. Never underestimate the ability of random people caught off guard in dangerous situations to make stupid decisions or to not make any decisions at all unless they are specifically prepared to do so. No one is suggesting that active shooter training will stop mass shootings obviously ... in fact, they suggest the exact opposite. The whole point is to train people to handle mass shootings so that they can be a survivor.

The problem is that 1 two hour class random people may take will do nothing if 1) the random people retain the information. 2) the random people practice/drill the practical solutions taught. And 3) you could be a survival expert and end up dead from a number of reason. You could be the first one shot. The "untrained" people around you could get you killed.

I'm not saying goes it's a bad idea for people to inform themselves. I'm saying the problem isnt that people don't know what to do during an active shooter scenario. The problem is the ease by which people can get guns to act out these heinous acts.

Whatever you think the problem is, we are just not in a place politically to make it happen...maybe even ever. If all you choose to arm yourself with is knowledge, then people need to know. You can effectively and easily reinforce a door with a belt, but if no one in the room knows how to, then how many lives are lost purely do to ignorance?
As far as retaining information, study after study has shown that people revert to their training when in stressful situations...

Of course they do. Taking a seminar in an afternoon is a far cry from training.

You d be shocked what you can learn in a day.
Shit my wife and I took a three hour cooking class in nyc and it literally changed our culinary lives.

dudeman

Degeneratefk said:

PJPOWER said:

Degeneratefk said:

PJ_Soul said:

Degeneratefk said:

The idea that active shooter training will do anything to reduce active shooter deaths is ludicrous. Active shooter training does not stop a loon from buying a gun. Active shooter training doesn't protect night clubs. Active shooter training does not prevent anything. It's just talk. Every American citizen can go through hours of active shooter training and we will still have mass shootings.

Well, if it involves the public, I think it might at least kind of condition people to hide or hit the ground instead of panicking and making themselves more of a target and to do things that will maximize their chances of survival. Say a part of the training tells people to play dead, or to hide in such-and-such kind of a spot vs some other kind of spot, don't run yourself into dead ends if you can help it, don't just stand there like an idiot screaming "oh my god!!", how to handle yourself in a human stampede so you don't get trampled, cues that tell you whether running or hiding is the best chance for survival, etc etc. Never underestimate the ability of random people caught off guard in dangerous situations to make stupid decisions or to not make any decisions at all unless they are specifically prepared to do so. No one is suggesting that active shooter training will stop mass shootings obviously ... in fact, they suggest the exact opposite. The whole point is to train people to handle mass shootings so that they can be a survivor.

The problem is that 1 two hour class random people may take will do nothing if 1) the random people retain the information. 2) the random people practice/drill the practical solutions taught. And 3) you could be a survival expert and end up dead from a number of reason. You could be the first one shot. The "untrained" people around you could get you killed.

I'm not saying goes it's a bad idea for people to inform themselves. I'm saying the problem isnt that people don't know what to do during an active shooter scenario. The problem is the ease by which people can get guns to act out these heinous acts.

Whatever you think the problem is, we are just not in a place politically to make it happen...maybe even ever. If all you choose to arm yourself with is knowledge, then people need to know. You can effectively and easily reinforce a door with a belt, but if no one in the room knows how to, then how many lives are lost purely do to ignorance?
As far as retaining information, study after study has shown that people revert to their training when in stressful situations...

Of course they do. Taking a seminar in an afternoon is a far cry from training.

I'm always amazed at how much knowledge I retain from attending veterinary conferences. Lectures are usually an hour or two long and I remember things that I learned many years ago.

Some people are capable of learning and retaining knowledge, some are not. If the type of course referenced above doesn't work for you, don't go.

For everyone else, seeking individual training is really the only realistic option. The government has been ineffective regarding gun violence so far.

Degeneratefk

Really? A cooking class? Vet conferences? As pj soul said, this IS tactical training. You may very well remember bits and pieces months or years later. But unless you practice and train, you will not retain the skills. It's definitely not like riding a bike.

mcgruff10

Degeneratefk said:

Really? A cooking class? Vet conferences? As pj soul said, this IS tactical training. You may very well remember bits and pieces months or years later. But unless you practice and train, you will not retain the skills. It's definitely not like riding a bike.

Personally to me it is like riding a bike. If I don't shoot for six months or even a year it comes back to me pretty instantaneously. But that cooking class did indeed change the way we cook!

From your firsthand experience how often do you practice and train in order to retain your firearms skills? What courses have you taken?

Degeneratefk

mcgruff10 said:

Degeneratefk said:

Really? A cooking class? Vet conferences? As pj soul said, this IS tactical training. You may very well remember bits and pieces months or years later. But unless you practice and train, you will not retain the skills. It's definitely not like riding a bike.

Personally to me it is like riding a bike. If I don't shoot for six months or even a year it comes back to me pretty instantaneously. But that cooking class did indeed change the way we cook!

From your firsthand experience how often do you practice and train in order to retain your firearms skills? What courses have you taken?

Zero. I have not taken a firearms class. Not one. It's not at all what I'm referring to.

Have you ever wondered why the military, policeman, fireman, and EMTs train on a daily basis?

mcgruff10

Degeneratefk said:

mcgruff10 said:

Degeneratefk said:

Really? A cooking class? Vet conferences? As pj soul said, this IS tactical training. You may very well remember bits and pieces months or years later. But unless you practice and train, you will not retain the skills. It's definitely not like riding a bike.

Personally to me it is like riding a bike. If I don't shoot for six months or even a year it comes back to me pretty instantaneously. But that cooking class did indeed change the way we cook!

From your firsthand experience how often do you practice and train in order to retain your firearms skills? What courses have you taken?

Zero. I have not taken a firearms class. Not one. It's not at all what I'm referring to.

Have you ever wondered why the military, policeman, fireman, and EMTs train on a daily basis?

You are talking about someone's hobby vs a job. Sure if I practiced tactical training techniques everyday I'd be almost as good as someone in the military but that's not realistic.

Degeneratefk

mcgruff10 said:

Degeneratefk said:

mcgruff10 said:

Degeneratefk said:

Really? A cooking class? Vet conferences? As pj soul said, this IS tactical training. You may very well remember bits and pieces months or years later. But unless you practice and train, you will not retain the skills. It's definitely not like riding a bike.

Personally to me it is like riding a bike. If I don't shoot for six months or even a year it comes back to me pretty instantaneously. But that cooking class did indeed change the way we cook!

From your firsthand experience how often do you practice and train in order to retain your firearms skills? What courses have you taken?

Zero. I have not taken a firearms class. Not one. It's not at all what I'm referring to.

Have you ever wondered why the military, policeman, fireman, and EMTs train on a daily basis?

You are talking about someone's hobby vs a job. Sure if I practiced tactical training techniques everyday I'd be almost as good as someone in the military but that's not realistic.

No, im talking about active shooter awareness. I don't know why you're talking about gun classes.

And you just made my point on why taking a ln afternoon seminar really doesn't do much in the grand scheme. Skills like that need to be practiced on a regular basis.

Cliffy6745

Fuck off if you think I am going to attend a class so other people can own guns...

Gern Blansten

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/accidents/father-accidentally-kills-son-at-sarasota-gun-range/2284099

unbefuckinglievable

It unofficially belonged to Clayton Brumby's 12-year-old daughter, but he was up next to fire the .22 semi-automatic Ruger SR22 at the shooting range at High Noon Guns in Sarasota on Sunday.

His 14-year-old son, Stephen, patiently sat in the back of the lane next to his sister, awaiting his turn. Stephen didn't like smaller guns anyway. The teenager preferred bigger ones, like his dad's 9mm Glock.

When Clayton Brumby fired his last shot, he said a smoking hot casing flew out of the pistol and went down the back of his shirt. Both arms flailed up in the air, he said, his finger still on the trigger. The gun fired.

"Dad, Stephen's been shot," the father heard his 24-year-old son shriek.

The father said the bullet he fired ricocheted off the ceiling and struck the 14-year-old's jugular vein. The teen was rushed to Sarasota Memorial Hospital, where deputies said he was later pronounced dead.

"The gun didn't kill my boy," the 64-year-old father of seven said Monday. "I did."

PJPOWER

Degeneratefk said:

mcgruff10 said:

Degeneratefk said:

mcgruff10 said:

Degeneratefk said:

Really? A cooking class? Vet conferences? As pj soul said, this IS tactical training. You may very well remember bits and pieces months or years later. But unless you practice and train, you will not retain the skills. It's definitely not like riding a bike.

Personally to me it is like riding a bike. If I don't shoot for six months or even a year it comes back to me pretty instantaneously. But that cooking class did indeed change the way we cook!

From your firsthand experience how often do you practice and train in order to retain your firearms skills? What courses have you taken?

Zero. I have not taken a firearms class. Not one. It's not at all what I'm referring to.

Have you ever wondered why the military, policeman, fireman, and EMTs train on a daily basis?

You are talking about someone's hobby vs a job. Sure if I practiced tactical training techniques everyday I'd be almost as good as someone in the military but that's not realistic.

No, im talking about active shooter awareness. I don't know why you're talking about gun classes.

And you just made my point on why taking a ln afternoon seminar really doesn't do much in the grand scheme. Skills like that need to be practiced on a regular basis.

Many of the skills you leave the classes with are pretty easily practiced on a daily basis in the real world. In general, recognizing exits when you enter a place, keeping your head up and paying attention to people around you, watching for propped open doors leading outside. The thing is, there are different levels of knowledge when it comes to this stuff and the more you know the more refined and mastered these skills would get. But to just go along with no knowledge whatsoever is not only irresponsible, but dangerous. You do not have to have Doctor level surgery skills to save someone from bleeding out, but knowing simple things as to how to approach different situations seems like a no-brainer. Might even prevent yourself from contracting HIV.
The problem is that many people do not even understand the most basic safety or preventative practices to increase the safety of themselves and those around them. I know for sure that I would be more encouraged to go to more of these trainings if there were financial incentives such as tax/insurance breaks... If the goal really is to save lives, then let's learn how to save lives, right???

PJPOWER

Cliffy6745 said:

Fuck off if you think I am going to attend a class so other people can own guns...

So maybe attend a class because people already own guns? If you are really that afraid that someone is going to come in an shoot up a place, then why would you not do everything you could to stop them from succeeding? If people want to keep arguing whether guns should or should not be banned and that makes them feel better, then keep doing it... But in the mean time while guns are not banned, maybe do something else!?!?
If the general public became more knowledgeable and stopped people from succeeding in their mayhem, then both sides of the argument win... Even if you win and "assault weapons" get banned, there are still enough out there to last a couple hundred years and it will always be relevant to have some basic survival skills for if you are ever waiting 3 hours for the police to respond...and even then it may be good to know what to do when said police that barely passed their minimum firearm proficiency test starts spraying bullets.

jnimhaoileoin

I'm sure Americans will think I sound naive but it's so sad that it has come to this. That people feel the need to take classes to be prepared for a mass shooting event. It's just such an indictment of the country you live in. Admittedly there has now been the odd such incident in Europe but I hope we are still far from worrying about it happening here in Ieland

PJPOWER

jnimhaoileoin said:

I'm sure Americans will think I sound naive but it's so sad that it has come to this. That people feel the need to take classes to be prepared for a mass shooting event. It's just such an indictment of the country you live in. Admittedly there has now been the odd such incident in Europe but I hope we are still far from worrying about it happening here in Ieland

It's not just about mass shootings, but being prepared for all types of violence. Evidently some in Ireland are a bit worried. http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/ireland-is-not-immune-from-terrorist-attacks-says-fitzgerald-1.2582923

jnimhaoileoin

PJPOWER said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

I'm sure Americans will think I sound naive but it's so sad that it has come to this. That people feel the need to take classes to be prepared for a mass shooting event. It's just such an indictment of the country you live in. Admittedly there has now been the odd such incident in Europe but I hope we are still far from worrying about it happening here in Ieland

It's not just about mass shootings, but being prepared for all types of violence. Evidently some in Ireland are a bit worried. http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/ireland-is-not-immune-from-terrorist-attacks-says-fitzgerald-1.2582923

Aye but we have never had any incidents of violence involving even a rumour of terrorism here, nor have we ever been involved in any conflict with a Muslim nation or organisation. Also, being an island, it's a lot harder for dodgy characters to get into the country. I don't think that article suggests anyone in Ireland is worried, it is simply the government's job to take measures to protect its citizens should they deem it necessary and the minister was merely saying such things as a matter of course