What's a living wage?

unsung

Reality is all the laws ever written still don't stop bad people from bad things. Most people prefer non-aggression principles and helping those in need.

Godfather.

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

unsung wrote:

Eh, I'm against a minimum wage, and I don't see how someone who can't survive on min wage will find $1400 a year before taxes to be the amount that brings them above the line.

Min wage is that for a reason, they have no skills, why do they deserve to be paid so much when all they can do is wash dishes?

It's not deserve. It's settling on something that is reasonable given the amount of money a company is going to make on the backs of these 'unskilled' people you speak of.

I guess you would rather corporate fat cats born to privilege hoard all the cash while minimum wage servants busy themselves at the bottom of the corporate chain? Sounds like what is going on right now and look at the great results of this: poverty, broken families, mothers working two jobs and unable to raise their kids, kids not going to school, people resorting to crime, and anger at the establishment.

The American Dream!

Fuck me. You don't get it, man. Geezuz what is wrong with people? Holy shit.

I have been reading stuff on this wage war and reading a lot of people's complaints that flipping burgers does not deserve $15 an hour and all I can do is shake my head in disbelief...have these complainers noticed the price of gas rent or food ? set aside the cost of baby food or insurance, I'm going with Thirty Bill Unpaid on this one,yes the corperations need to take care of the people that provide the labor to make them embaressingly wealthy.
:shock: holy crap I need to go and wash my hands and rinse my mouth out with soap...I sound like a friggin union democrate.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Godfather. wrote:

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

unsung wrote:

Eh, I'm against a minimum wage, and I don't see how someone who can't survive on min wage will find $1400 a year before taxes to be the amount that brings them above the line.

Min wage is that for a reason, they have no skills, why do they deserve to be paid so much when all they can do is wash dishes?

It's not deserve. It's settling on something that is reasonable given the amount of money a company is going to make on the backs of these 'unskilled' people you speak of.

I guess you would rather corporate fat cats born to privilege hoard all the cash while minimum wage servants busy themselves at the bottom of the corporate chain? Sounds like what is going on right now and look at the great results of this: poverty, broken families, mothers working two jobs and unable to raise their kids, kids not going to school, people resorting to crime, and anger at the establishment.

The American Dream!

Fuck me. You don't get it, man. Geezuz what is wrong with people? Holy shit.

I have been reading stuff on this wage war and reading a lot of people's complaints that flipping burgers does not deserve $15 an hour and all I can do is shake my head in disbelief...have these complainers noticed the price of gas rent or food ? set aside the cost of baby food or insurance, I'm going with Thirty Bill Unpaid on this one,yes the corperations need to take care of the people that provide the labor to make them embaressingly wealthy.
:shock: holy crap I need to go and wash my hands and rinse my mouth out with soap...I sound like a friggin union democrate.

I saw you had quoted my passage and my immediate thought before reading what you had written was, "Oh Geezuz. Here we go!"

Glad we can see eye-to-eye on this one!

Cosmo

I also understand that is is a difficult problem.. but, like it or not, it is a reality in 2013 that fast food jobs are the primary employment of adults... often times, parents. It is not 1957 anymore and the jobs at the burger joints aren't only for teens.
That's because our industries have disappeared. Parents in the 50s through 80s worked in places that produced materials or finished products and do not compete for the minimum wage jobs. Where are the non-minimum wage jobs for adults with little or no skills in 2013? Where are the textile mills? Where are the manufacturing plants? Where are those places that build televisons, radios, water heaters, stoves, refridgerators, washing machines, furniture? They used to be all along the Long Beach Freeway corridor in places like Bell and Southgate and Industry and Santa Fe Springs. All of those places are gone and so are those jobs.
We have to come to the realization that we are not the manufacturing country we used to be and have become a retail and services country for our unskilled workers.
...
Also... put a litle human empathy in the equation. We are Americans.... and isn't one of our proudest traits our spirit of helping our people? Or has that gone away from us, too?

RoleModelsinBlood31

I'm probably in the minority in this thread but I have to admit, I haven't read all the posts, either. It seems like PJ has a lot of democrat fans, as do most artists, so I watch my words wisely and fully expect an attack!

I have happened to be lucky enough at age 33 to have opened 1 small restaurant, and used my experience in the food world to help me to be successful enough to have a second one opening in March. They both are under my corporation, which I created in order to protect my businesses, and limit my taxes. With that said, I have no outstanding loans, have paid off my undergrad and culinary schools, and really only have my house's mortgage- I was very careful to work hard and play the market successfully while in my 20's. I am in no way a genius, just a very hard worker who never accepts "I can't" as an answer. There's always a way. Ok, no more self-fluffing, I just needed to explain why I feel the way I do.

If I have to pay my employees a guaranteed $15 an hour, I won't have a business any longer. I live paycheck to paycheck and that's fine with me. By raising the minimum pay, the same pool of people in a relatively unskilled labor force now make more money, without adding any skill or quality to their work. Not a good idea. I love my employees, it's not about that. The hand outs and common expectation that someone owes us something is unfortunately really hurting our country. You can't have capitalism with socialist/communist principles. Capitalism simply makes some have and others not. The food chain writ large if you will. By paying people more money, all that happens is people get less skilled, and more entitled and dependent on the hand outs. It's like your aquarium- the fish come for their feeding time. Democratic principles have created human zombies now in our country who flock for feeding time. Gone are the self-starters and business. Gone are the ruthless and the one's who started this country. Do you think that the forefathers and those who ran from persecution in other lands were waiting for handouts? Nope. They did it themselves. Those who have worked hard or created business are now hated and called the "have's?" I'm certainly very far from a "have," but jeez, why is everyone hating on those who played the game smartly? I agree, tax the shit out of them, because they have the cash to pay, but don't for a second think that by spreading out this money to the impoverished and those who aren't going to play the game that it will fix anything. It will end up in the pockets of those who have fought hard and played the game the right way. It just digs the hole deeper and hinders our economy more. When's the next economic surplus anyway?

Cosmo

RoleModelsinBlood31 wrote:

I'm probably in the minority in this thread but I have to admit, I haven't read all the posts, either. It seems like PJ has a lot of democrat fans, as do most artists, so I watch my words wisely and fully expect an attack!

I have happened to be lucky enough at age 33 to have opened 1 small restaurant, and used my experience in the food world to help me to be successful enough to have a second one opening in March. They both are under my corporation, which I created in order to protect my businesses, and limit my taxes. With that said, I have no outstanding loans, have paid off my undergrad and culinary schools, and really only have my house's mortgage- I was very careful to work hard and play the market successfully while in my 20's. I am in no way a genius, just a very hard worker who never accepts "I can't" as an answer. There's always a way. Ok, no more self-fluffing, I just needed to explain why I feel the way I do.

If I have to pay my employees a guaranteed $15 an hour, I won't have a business any longer. I live paycheck to paycheck and that's fine with me. By raising the minimum pay, the same pool of people in a relatively unskilled labor force now make more money, without adding any skill or quality to their work. Not a good idea. I love my employees, it's not about that. The hand outs and common expectation that someone owes us something is unfortunately really hurting our country. You can't have capitalism with socialist/communist principles. Capitalism simply makes some have and others not. The food chain writ large if you will. By paying people more money, all that happens is people get less skilled, and more entitled and dependent on the hand outs. It's like your aquarium- the fish come for their feeding time. Democratic principles have created human zombies now in our country who flock for feeding time. Gone are the self-starters and business. Gone are the ruthless and the one's who started this country. Do you think that the forefathers and those who ran from persecution in other lands were waiting for handouts? Nope. They did it themselves. Those who have worked hard or created business are now hated and called the "have's?" I'm certainly very far from a "have," but jeez, why is everyone hating on those who played the game smartly? I agree, tax the shit out of them, because they have the cash to pay, but don't for a second think that by spreading out this money to the impoverished and those who aren't going to play the game that it will fix anything. It will end up in the pockets of those who have fought hard and played the game the right way. It just digs the hole deeper and hinders our economy more. When's the next economic surplus anyway?

...
That is great, that you have a small business and all.
But, I have to ask, do you ever give out raises to your employees? Or do they remain on minimum wage forever?
...
Thanx.

RoleModelsinBlood31

I don't have any of my employees making minimum wage. I pay them what I feel they are worth- and all of them therefore are worth more than minimum wage. They've all gotten raises too, well except for one- she just started a few weeks ago. My unwritten rule is an employee must work 6 weeks before I think they are worthy of a raise.

Cosmo

RoleModelsinBlood31 wrote:

I don't have any of my employees making minimum wage. I pay them what I feel they are worth- and all of them therefore are worth more than minimum wage. They've all gotten raises too, well except for one- she just started a few weeks ago. My unwritten rule is an employee must work 6 weeks before I think they are worthy of a raise.

...
That's great. So, they are above the minimum wage... but, far from the 15 dollar range. Are any of them older (adults) or are they all teenagers? That is where the difference kicks in. Teenagers still live at home... whereas many in the food services are adults, sometimes with kids, that will works at several minimum wage jobs.
...
Again, this is the America we have grown into. We gave all of our low skilled, descent paying manufacturing jobs away in order to get 'Always the Lowest Price, Always'. Those adults can only find those jobs at places like McDonalds and Taco Bell.
...
But, yes... i see and understand your plight. Like I said, it is a difficult situation with no easy answers.

RoleModelsinBlood31

Yeah, I have both younger kids and adults with kids who work for me. Still, just because people feel they're worth $15 and hour, doesn't mean they are.

Cosmo

RoleModelsinBlood31 wrote:

Yeah, I have both younger kids and adults with kids who work for me. Still, just because people feel they're worth $15 and hour, doesn't mean they are.

...
I totally get it. People should be paid their worth... but, who set their worth?
Again, a difficult issue with no easy solutions.

dignin

RoleModelsinBlood31 wrote:

I'm probably in the minority in this thread but I have to admit, I haven't read all the posts, either. It seems like PJ has a lot of democrat fans, as do most artists, so I watch my words wisely and fully expect an attack!

I have happened to be lucky enough at age 33 to have opened 1 small restaurant, and used my experience in the food world to help me to be successful enough to have a second one opening in March. They both are under my corporation, which I created in order to protect my businesses, and limit my taxes. With that said, I have no outstanding loans, have paid off my undergrad and culinary schools, and really only have my house's mortgage- I was very careful to work hard and play the market successfully while in my 20's. I am in no way a genius, just a very hard worker who never accepts "I can't" as an answer. There's always a way. Ok, no more self-fluffing, I just needed to explain why I feel the way I do.

If I have to pay my employees a guaranteed $15 an hour, I won't have a business any longer. I live paycheck to paycheck and that's fine with me. By raising the minimum pay, the same pool of people in a relatively unskilled labor force now make more money, without adding any skill or quality to their work. Not a good idea. I love my employees, it's not about that. The hand outs and common expectation that someone owes us something is unfortunately really hurting our country. You can't have capitalism with socialist/communist principles. Capitalism simply makes some have and others not. The food chain writ large if you will. By paying people more money, all that happens is people get less skilled, and more entitled and dependent on the hand outs. It's like your aquarium- the fish come for their feeding time. Democratic principles have created human zombies now in our country who flock for feeding time. Gone are the self-starters and business. Gone are the ruthless and the one's who started this country. Do you think that the forefathers and those who ran from persecution in other lands were waiting for handouts? Nope. They did it themselves. Those who have worked hard or created business are now hated and called the "have's?" I'm certainly very far from a "have," but jeez, why is everyone hating on those who played the game smartly? I agree, tax the shit out of them, because they have the cash to pay, but don't for a second think that by spreading out this money to the impoverished and those who aren't going to play the game that it will fix anything. It will end up in the pockets of those who have fought hard and played the game the right way. It just digs the hole deeper and hinders our economy more. When's the next economic surplus anyway?

Would you close your doors or would you pass along your extra costs to the consumer? All of your competition would be paying the increased cost too, so I don't really understand this argument.

But I do appreciate having a business owners opinion here. Makes for a better conversation.

RoleModelsinBlood31

dignin wrote:

RoleModelsinBlood31 wrote:

I'm probably in the minority in this thread but I have to admit, I haven't read all the posts, either. It seems like PJ has a lot of democrat fans, as do most artists, so I watch my words wisely and fully expect an attack!

I have happened to be lucky enough at age 33 to have opened 1 small restaurant, and used my experience in the food world to help me to be successful enough to have a second one opening in March. They both are under my corporation, which I created in order to protect my businesses, and limit my taxes. With that said, I have no outstanding loans, have paid off my undergrad and culinary schools, and really only have my house's mortgage- I was very careful to work hard and play the market successfully while in my 20's. I am in no way a genius, just a very hard worker who never accepts "I can't" as an answer. There's always a way. Ok, no more self-fluffing, I just needed to explain why I feel the way I do.

If I have to pay my employees a guaranteed $15 an hour, I won't have a business any longer. I live paycheck to paycheck and that's fine with me. By raising the minimum pay, the same pool of people in a relatively unskilled labor force now make more money, without adding any skill or quality to their work. Not a good idea. I love my employees, it's not about that. The hand outs and common expectation that someone owes us something is unfortunately really hurting our country. You can't have capitalism with socialist/communist principles. Capitalism simply makes some have and others not. The food chain writ large if you will. By paying people more money, all that happens is people get less skilled, and more entitled and dependent on the hand outs. It's like your aquarium- the fish come for their feeding time. Democratic principles have created human zombies now in our country who flock for feeding time. Gone are the self-starters and business. Gone are the ruthless and the one's who started this country. Do you think that the forefathers and those who ran from persecution in other lands were waiting for handouts? Nope. They did it themselves. Those who have worked hard or created business are now hated and called the "have's?" I'm certainly very far from a "have," but jeez, why is everyone hating on those who played the game smartly? I agree, tax the shit out of them, because they have the cash to pay, but don't for a second think that by spreading out this money to the impoverished and those who aren't going to play the game that it will fix anything. It will end up in the pockets of those who have fought hard and played the game the right way. It just digs the hole deeper and hinders our economy more. When's the next economic surplus anyway?

Would you close your doors or would you pass along your extra costs to the consumer? All of your competition would be paying the increased cost too, so I don't really understand this argument.

But I do appreciate having a business owners opinion here. Makes for a better conversation.

Well of course I wouldn't close my doors at first. I would pass the costs onto the consumer, but there's a ceiling here that a consumer is willing to pay for something. Without saying what product my business sells because I believe forum or not I have a right to my privacy, most people would be amazed at how small a profit is after all of a businesses expenses. Rent, labor, utilities, NNN, city code costs, business insurance, workers comp insurance, internet and phone, produce, dry goods, equipment, equipment maintenance, preventative maintenance, training, etc. not to mention sales tax, and federal tax all add up. I don't see how my business could make it if I suddenly had to double my salaries to my employees. The fact I think simply put is the public would once again cry for higher pay because they can't afford to pay for life's simple things like what I happen to serve. Where's the ceiling/ where does it stop?

In a capitalist society as I said before it is a dog eat dog world. Not a dog eats some food and then saves some for the smaller more helpless dog. The alpha takes what he wants, and so it goes....

Minimum wage is currently state by state also, so I'm not really sure if it would federally mandated or continue to be state.

dignin

RoleModelsinBlood31 wrote:

dignin wrote:

RoleModelsinBlood31 wrote:

I'm probably in the minority in this thread but I have to admit, I haven't read all the posts, either. It seems like PJ has a lot of democrat fans, as do most artists, so I watch my words wisely and fully expect an attack!

I have happened to be lucky enough at age 33 to have opened 1 small restaurant, and used my experience in the food world to help me to be successful enough to have a second one opening in March. They both are under my corporation, which I created in order to protect my businesses, and limit my taxes. With that said, I have no outstanding loans, have paid off my undergrad and culinary schools, and really only have my house's mortgage- I was very careful to work hard and play the market successfully while in my 20's. I am in no way a genius, just a very hard worker who never accepts "I can't" as an answer. There's always a way. Ok, no more self-fluffing, I just needed to explain why I feel the way I do.

If I have to pay my employees a guaranteed $15 an hour, I won't have a business any longer. I live paycheck to paycheck and that's fine with me. By raising the minimum pay, the same pool of people in a relatively unskilled labor force now make more money, without adding any skill or quality to their work. Not a good idea. I love my employees, it's not about that. The hand outs and common expectation that someone owes us something is unfortunately really hurting our country. You can't have capitalism with socialist/communist principles. Capitalism simply makes some have and others not. The food chain writ large if you will. By paying people more money, all that happens is people get less skilled, and more entitled and dependent on the hand outs. It's like your aquarium- the fish come for their feeding time. Democratic principles have created human zombies now in our country who flock for feeding time. Gone are the self-starters and business. Gone are the ruthless and the one's who started this country. Do you think that the forefathers and those who ran from persecution in other lands were waiting for handouts? Nope. They did it themselves. Those who have worked hard or created business are now hated and called the "have's?" I'm certainly very far from a "have," but jeez, why is everyone hating on those who played the game smartly? I agree, tax the shit out of them, because they have the cash to pay, but don't for a second think that by spreading out this money to the impoverished and those who aren't going to play the game that it will fix anything. It will end up in the pockets of those who have fought hard and played the game the right way. It just digs the hole deeper and hinders our economy more. When's the next economic surplus anyway?

Would you close your doors or would you pass along your extra costs to the consumer? All of your competition would be paying the increased cost too, so I don't really understand this argument.

But I do appreciate having a business owners opinion here. Makes for a better conversation.

Well of course I wouldn't close my doors at first. I would pass the costs onto the consumer, but there's a ceiling here that a consumer is willing to pay for something. Without saying what product my business sells because I believe forum or not I have a right to my privacy, most people would be amazed at how small a profit is after all of a businesses expenses. Rent, labor, utilities, NNN, city code costs, business insurance, workers comp insurance, internet and phone, produce, dry goods, equipment, equipment maintenance, preventative maintenance, training, etc. not to mention sales tax, and federal tax all add up. I don't see how my business could make it if I suddenly had to double my salaries to my employees. The fact I think simply put is the public would once again cry for higher pay because they can't afford to pay for life's simple things like what I happen to serve. Where's the ceiling/ where does it stop?

In a capitalist society as I said before it is a dog eat dog world. Not a dog eats some food and then saves some for the smaller more helpless dog. The alpha takes what he wants, and so it goes....

Minimum wage is currently state by state also, so I'm not really sure if it would federally mandated or continue to be state.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Like Cosmo said, no easy answers.

RoleModelsinBlood31

Yeah of course, I'm glad we can all participate in this forum together and for the most part not fight all the time!

Cosmo

RoleModelsinBlood31 wrote:

In a capitalist society as I said before it is a dog eat dog world. Not a dog eats some food and then saves some for the smaller more helpless dog. The alpha takes what he wants, and so it goes....

...
This is a sad but true statement. It is too bad that we are reduced to the level of dog's eating other dogs.
An example of totally unregulated free-enterprise capitalism is the street drug business. If left solely for their market to decide, without any and all government regulation and laws... it is a smart business practice to kill your competition to increase your market share.
Again, that is the extreme... but in some business, it may just fall short of literally murdering your competition.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

RoleModelsinBlood31 wrote:

Yeah, I have both younger kids and adults with kids who work for me. Still, just because people feel they're worth $15 and hour, doesn't mean they are.

Just to clarify... I don't think anybody is saying $15 should be the minimum wage.

I think people are saying $3 should not be the minimum wage.

I worked in the restaurant and pub industry for many years placing myself through university. This is one industry that might prove the exception because workers can count on gratuities to supplement the lower wage. Tips were infinitely greater than my 'salary' (if that is what you wanted to call it).

RoleModelsinBlood31

Oh, right on. Is $3 the minimum wage in some states? That can't be right, can it?

Cosmo

RoleModelsinBlood31 wrote:

Oh, right on. Is $3 the minimum wage in some states? That can't be right, can it?

...
Yeah... I can't figure that out either.
http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/america.htm
Southern States have no State Minimum Wage and some states have lower than the $7.25 minimum for very small businesses (under 6 employees, for example).

RoleModelsinBlood31

http://money.cnn.com/interactive/pf/state-minimum-wage/

I have no idea what that was saying. My understanding is that it's a federally mandated limit.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Cosmo wrote:

RoleModelsinBlood31 wrote:

Oh, right on. Is $3 the minimum wage in some states? That can't be right, can it?

...
Yeah... I can't figure that out either.
http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/america.htm
Southern States have no State Minimum Wage and some states have lower than the $7.25 minimum for very small businesses (under 6 employees, for example).

I was looking as well.

There is a federal minimum wage of $7.25. For tipped workers there is a federal wage of $2.13 per hour.

I don't want to get too much into the statistics, but a natural question I have is what exactly is a tipped worker? While waiters and bartenders earn generous tips, a chamber maid doesn't. As well, restaurants I have worked at had 'tip pool' where there was a formula that waiters needed to pay into so bartenders, busboys, cooks and dishwashers got tip money as well. Busboys didn't receive a huge portion of 'tip pool'... but are they considered a tipped worker?

I have also tipped movers and cab drivers and a variety of other people as well. Does this place them into such a category?

Aside from all the aforementioned... I think what this thread has centered itself on was the notion of establishing a minimum wage or allowing for a deregulated capitalist market to determine what wages should be.