If somebody begins abusing alcohol/drugs, that's on them, not whatever is happening in the local economy. And it's a terrible excuse anyway. If you don't have a job you shouldn't have the disposable income to spend on drugs/alcohol and have your ass busy looking for a new job.
It's just one aspect of the many reasons why fracking is not a good choice. Where are they going to get the money to relocate? Who are they going to sell their homes to? Where are they going to find jobs in these rural communities that were solely dependent on this natural resource?? And it's not anyone's place to judge how people use their money. There are many different issues people experience that contribute to addiction as many of us know. It truly is just a trend in these areas that is worthy of noting. There are so many bigger issues with hydraulic fracturing...this is just one aspect of the social effects and not being used as an excuse for anything. However, we often do not take into account the quality of life for people and how decisions being made in our communities effect that- a lot of times we just focus on two sides, business and environment. I value people as well.
I realize many things contribute to addiction, which is why I find it silly you're throwing that into the Fracking issue.
I don't know how Fracking is going to be in Ohio, but here in Texas there aren't communities built around or dependent on it. At least not that I know of. It's just another thing that goes on around here. It's not like old coal mining or steel mill towns where the entire town was built around the mine/mill and if it shut down the entire community was dead. Any business shutting down can have an adverse affect on the local economy, that doesn't mean nobody should ever try to start one up because one day it might close down and cause economic ripples.
I'm not necessarily for or against Fracking. I've heard the good/bad stories, and heard the other side supposedly debunk the other side. Heard stories of exploding water, etc. I don't really know. I just think you're adding some unnecessary arguments to your side.
As for it's not anybody's place to judge how people spend their money. If we're talking about these people who have hypothetically lost their livelihood, have fallen into poverty, and are now abusing drugs and alcohol, I feel pretty comfortable saying they shouldn't be spending money they supposedly don't have on getting fucked up. It's just common sense. On one hand you're saying "where will these people get money to relocate and get new jobs?" and on the other hand saying they'll be spending money on drugs and alcohol and we shouldn't judge them for that.
I think there are some good arguments against Fracking, all I'm saying is I don't think this is one of them.
"See a broad to get dat booty yak 'em, leg 'er down, a smack 'em yak 'em!"
I don't. The one business in my town closed its doors so I'm now unemployed, an alcoholic, and a drug addict. I blame them not the fact that I'm too lazy to find another job or possibly even move. :fp:
I think there are some good arguments against Fracking, all I'm saying is I don't think this is one of them.
I understand what you are saying and see where you are coming from.
I think socially there are more important issues as well, like the infrastructure issue and the inflation in those areas which can make things difficult for long time residents. I think if you do some extensive research you will recognize that these things are very present and some of the rural communities are already seeing the effects of these things. I can send you some information if you would like.
However, I think including EVERYTHING is important as I do not enjoy just picking and choosing things. To some of these people, addiction is a serious psychological effect for workers in these communities and that is why I included it in a list of social effects.
Show some respect for other people. Just because this doesn't involve you and your view on the subject doesn't mean you can be assholes. I've been respectful of everything you guys have said and engaged in respectable debate.
I think there are some good arguments against Fracking, all I'm saying is I don't think this is one of them.
I understand what you are saying and see where you are coming from.
I think socially there are more important issues as well, like the infrastructure issue and the inflation in those areas which can make things difficult for long time residents. I think if you do some extensive research you will recognize that these things are very present and some of the rural communities are already seeing the effects of these things. I can send you some information if you would like.
However, I think including EVERYTHING is important as I do not enjoy just picking and choosing things. To some of these people, addiction is a serious psychological effect for workers in these communities and that is why I included it in a list of social effects.
I just think you should stick to the Fracking Specific issues, otherwise you just sound like you're against any kind of commerce what-so-ever. Addiction isn't specific to fracking. People abusing drugs/alcohol because they're depressed about losing their job or whatever can happen to anybody with any job. And I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the idea of protecting people from getting fired (and all that comes with being unemployed) by just not letting them have the job in the first place.
"See a broad to get dat booty yak 'em, leg 'er down, a smack 'em yak 'em!"
Show some respect for other people. Just because this doesn't involve you and your view on the subject doesn't mean you can be assholes. I've been respectful of everything you guys have said and engaged in respectable debate.
I think there are some good arguments against Fracking, all I'm saying is I don't think this is one of them.
I understand what you are saying and see where you are coming from.
I think socially there are more important issues as well, like the infrastructure issue and the inflation in those areas which can make things difficult for long time residents. I think if you do some extensive research you will recognize that these things are very present and some of the rural communities are already seeing the effects of these things. I can send you some information if you would like.
However, I think including EVERYTHING is important as I do not enjoy just picking and choosing things. To some of these people, addiction is a serious psychological effect for workers in these communities and that is why I included it in a list of social effects.
I just think you should stick to the Fracking Specific issues, otherwise you just sound like you're against any kind of commerce what-so-ever. Addiction isn't specific to fracking. People abusing drugs/alcohol because they're depressed about losing their job or whatever can happen to anybody with any job. And I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the idea of protecting people from getting fired (and all that comes with being unemployed) by just not letting them have the job in the first place.
I'm for sustainable economic growth. I'm not trying to protect anybody from getting fired. I'm talking about communities who are dependent on these natural resources and the social effects when you have these boom and bust type industries. Not to mention, all the environmental issues and the fact that this is not going to be something we can depend on forever -- which are my biggest concerns. However, as I noted, we often do not include effects on society and quality of life. This is just one example of the larger issue we have created and that is an economy where we solely focus on GDP and nothing else. Don't tell me what to do...worry about yourself. To some people, I'm not "coming off" the way you interpret. Like I said we all interpret and dissect things differently, which is why I did not want to argue about this in the first place and was using it as a way to just let people know about the groups of people joining in Columbus, OH June 14-17 to show that they are against fracking in their neighborhoods. But I do appreciate you keeping this on top of the AET forum and I appreciate you voicing your concerns until you start becoming intentionally disrespectful and start saying bullshit based on your shallow thoughts.
I don't. The one business in my town closed its doors so I'm now unemployed, an alcoholic, and a drug addict. I blame them not the fact that I'm too lazy to find another job or possibly even move. :fp:
I didn't really mean to offend you but it is what you are kind of saying just in a summarized wise ass kind of way. And living in Albany and being from Utica with all of my family still living there I am in the middle of the fracking debate actually.
But I do appreciate you keeping this on top of the AET forum and I appreciate you voicing your concerns until you start becoming intentionally disrespectful and start saying bullshit based on your shallow thoughts.
Wait... what the hell did I say? And what happened to the "respectable debate". Because I disagree with some of your points my comments are "bullshit" and I'm shallow?
"See a broad to get dat booty yak 'em, leg 'er down, a smack 'em yak 'em!"
I didn't really mean to offend you but it is what you are kind of saying just in a summarized wise ass kind of way. And living in Albany and being from Utica with all of my family still living there I am in the middle of the fracking debate actually.
I'm not saying that at all. You twisted my words to make it seem over-exaggerated and to be a smart ass. I know that is where you are from- there are tons of us that are right in the thick of it. I just happen to be concerned about it and wanting to become involved in at least letting our government know that I am against it. I am trying to inform those others who feel the same way I do that there is a very well put together gathering happening in June for those interested, especially to those people, like me, who rarely go over to AMT. There was no need for anyone to come in here and start arguing it from the get go, but I'm also not going to just let people discredit an important issue.
But I do appreciate you keeping this on top of the AET forum and I appreciate you voicing your concerns until you start becoming intentionally disrespectful and start saying bullshit based on your shallow thoughts.
Wait... what the hell did I say? And what happened to the "respectable debate". Because I disagree with some of your points my comments are "bullshit" and I'm shallow?
Your last comments were shallow and BS, not you. There was no depth behind them and just assumptions summarized and derived from my comments that fit your thinking. You broke them down to simplest terms without taking into consideration the problem at hand. I at least tried to answer your concerns and offered data and evidence.
"I just think you should stick to the Fracking Specific issues, otherwise you just sound like you're against any kind of commerce what-so-ever." I sound like this to you. Why should your ideas form my framework for reasoning?
"Addiction isn't specific to fracking. People abusing drugs/alcohol because they're depressed about losing their job or whatever can happen to anybody with any job." I understand that and that is why I mentioned about sustainable economic growth in general helping aid this situation.
"I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the idea of protecting people from getting fired (and all that comes with being unemployed) by just not letting them have the job in the first place." Why should we put people in this position? Why not get them in other job training programs and in industries that are going to allow them to provide for their families over longer periods of time? Congress should be pressing and investing in those industries to promote job growth. Not controversial, finite resources.
Alright bud. Have fun at your protest or whatever. The way I see it you just don't like people disagreeing with you. And a lot of what you're talking about is based on assumption too. Like I said, I'm not necessarily for fracking, I just think you should stick to the facts (which I think are plentiful as you know) and not water down your position with predictions about human affects based on the outdated model of old coal mining towns. You say it's nobody's business to say how people should spend their money, yet you're making it your business to say how they should make a living by saying they should get other jobs or training programs.
Oh, and don't be a pussy. Just call me shallow and full of bullshit. Don't give me that "your comments are" horseshit. I know what you mean.
"See a broad to get dat booty yak 'em, leg 'er down, a smack 'em yak 'em!"
Hope to see those interested of you interested in 3 weeks!! To stay updated on the schedule and happenings check out www.dontfrackoh.org and let them know you'll be there!
The way I see it you just don't like people disagreeing with you. And a lot of what you're talking about is based on assumption too. Like I said, I'm not necessarily for fracking, I just think you should stick to the facts (which I think are plentiful as you know) and not water down your position with predictions about human affects based on the outdated model of old coal mining towns. You say it's nobody's business to say how people should spend their money, yet you're making it your business to say how they should make a living by saying they should get other jobs or training programs.
I don't care if you disagree with me. I just really do not like you making light of what I'm saying and acting like I'm pulling it out of thin air. What is your background in this? What have you read that gives you your knowledge? And why would I call you shallow and full of BS? I don't even know you. I think your statements were though. How do you know what I mean when you don't know me?
Since the only thing you can focus on are the social effects and are claiming that what I am saying are assumptions, I pulled up a few of the charts depicting the poverty and drop in population in the coal mining towns from the 2000s, not even taking into account the current issues they are having with the Spruce 1 controversy. These types of situations ARE relevant because they are a similar type of industry- ones dependent on finite natural resources. Typically, in most industries, we learn from past models. There are many other examples that can be put into the place of the coal mining example. I am also including recent articles depicting the social issues in some of the areas where gas drilling is already occurring. I can provide more things if needed, but I'm really hope we can just agree to disagree and you can move on from this thread.:
Oil Boomtowns See Rise In Drunken Driving and Bar Fights, Threatening To Overwhelm Law Enforcement
Huff Post Business – Marc Levy – October 26, 2011
TOWANDA, Pa. — In a modern-day echo of the raucous Old West, small towns enjoying a boom in oil and gas drilling are seeing a sharp increase in drunken driving, bar fights and other hell-raising, blamed largely on an influx of young men who find themselves with lots of money in their pockets and nothing to do after they get off work. In Bradford County, Pennsylvania’s most heavily drilled county in the 3-year-old rush to tap the Marcellus Shale, the nation’s largest-known natural gas reservoir, the stream of men from Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana and elsewhere has been accompanied by increases in arrests, traffic violations, protection-from-abuse orders and warrants issued for people who don’t show up in court, law enforcement officials said. In the heart of western North Dakota’s oil patch, driving under the influence and assaults have spiked after thousands of workers descended on the area and settled in apartments and trailer villages known as “man camps.”
Locals to big oil: We want our town back!
CNN – Blake Ellis – October 24, 2011
WATFORD CITY, N.D. (CNNMoney) — For those who have spent their entire lives in the previously quiet farm towns that dot the northwestern corner of North Dakota, the discovery of oil in the Bakken formation has been anything but fortuitous. The thousands of people from around the country flocking to these boomtowns has led to a housing shortage and an increase in traffic, crime and frustration among the locals who feel like their small, close-knit towns are now gone forever. “At first, we were excited about the prospect of bringing in new people and money … but it slammed us so hard, in such a little time that a lot of locals now are kind of resentful,” said Deone Lawlar, a 57-year-old native of Watford City, which is located in the middle of the oil play. “Now we want our town back.” The land Lawlar’s home is built on has belonged to her family for generations. Last year, the dirt trail that led to her house was extended past her home by an oil exploration company to build two oil rigs, a pipeline company and housing facilities for oil workers. Now, the once-solitary road plays host to semi trucks at all hours of the day. Many drivers throw trash out their windows as they speed by. Lawlar said she even came home one evening to find a truck driver urinating on her lawn. “The quiet peaceful country life as we know it is a thing of the past,” said Lawlar. She and her husband used to joke that their next move would be to the cemetery. Now, it looks like it might be Bismarck.
Increased Gas Drilling Activities Bringing New Challenges to Local Governments in Pennsylvania
PR Newswire – May 24, 2011
HARRISBURG, Pa., May 24 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ — Counties and municipalities across Pennsylvania where natural gas drilling is taking place — particularly in the Northern Tier region — are also struggling to meet a number of additional challenges associated with the industry’s increased presence and rapid growth, according to state officials. PennDOT Secretary Allen D. Biehler, P.E. and Pennsylvania State Police Commissioner Frank Pawlowski today said that in the wake of the drilling, there have been increases in truck traffic, traffic violations, crime, demand for social services, and the number of miles of roads that are in need of repairs….More and more, it seems the police reports coming out of the northern tier include arrests because of drug use and trafficking, fights involving rig workers, DUIs, and weapons being brought into the state and not registered properly,” said the commissioner. “We’ve even encountered situations where drilling company employees who have been convicted of a sexual assault in another state come here to work and do not register with our Megan’s Law website. Each of these issues is unacceptable and places an even greater burden on our law enforcement and local social programs meant to help those in need.”
Must crime follow Pennsylvania’s gas drilling boom?
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette – Zach Needles – August 15, 2011
In Bradford County, Pa., drunken driving arrests are up 60 percent. Criminal sentencing was up 35 percent in 2010. And in Towanda, the county seat, DUI arrests were up 50 percent. Why? The frenzy of Marcellus Shale natural gas drilling, which has boosted the economies of some of Pennsylvania’s smallest and most rural counties in recent years, has also led to rapid population swells and — by extension — more crime.
Boomtown Blues
How natural gas changed the way of life in Sublette County
New Yorker – Alexandra Fuller – February 5, 2007
LETTER FROM WYOMING about how natural gas has changed the way of life in Sublette County. The annual Rendezvous Rodeo, held the second weekend in July, is the largest of the season in Sublette County, Wyoming. Roper Saul Bencomo was on the 14th team to ride. Seated next to the writer, Bencomo’s wife, Holly Davis, smiled. Davis is a third-generation cowgirl. The two work for local ranchers. This part of Wyoming is experiencing a boom in natural-gas exploitation, but locals still refer to the drilling fields as “the oil patch.” Sublette, with a population of 7,000, insists on its identity as a ranching community. But the truth is that oil-patch jobs-and the accompanying crime and drug use-are overwhelming ranching in the community. Since 2000, almost 1,800 new wells have been added, and 7,000 more have been approved for drilling in the next 10 years. Energy companies are pushing for unfettered access to private and public lands in the area. Wyoming’s leaders are almost all pro-energy development. Mentions Gillette syndrome-the depression and lawlessness that come with mineral wealth. A recent report by Ralph Boynton shows the Sublette crime rate rising by 30% from 2004 to 2005; air quality and the quality of life have also been affected. With the arrival, since 2000, of nearly 3,000 roughnecks, off-rig boredom has increased and this helps explain some of exploding crime rate. Fueling all this is the growing use of methamphetamines-primarily crystal meth, the roughneck’s drug of choice. “They’ve ripped the roots out of the very thing they say they care about: community values, family values, property rights,” Botur said.
I'm assuming that you know why the poverty rates are so high in those areas. Mountaintop removal is as drastic as it sounds. Lots of blasting, on top of slurry spills, landslides/mudslides, etc. Everybody who could afford to leave, did. Leaving only the poorest residents. It's not a matter of people all moving there to work and then not being able to leave. It's a coal company coming in and blowing the mountaintops to shit with explosives and people moving away. Blowing the top off a mountain and fracking are two different things. This is an inhabited area that lost residents due to the industry, not a town building up around an industry and being left high and dry when the resources ran out.
You'll notice three counties in that map that are among the highest poverty rate, yet don't have mining sites in them. So why is that?
Anyways, I'm going to make like DS1119 and get out. Have fun at your Fracking thing. If you don't want fracking in your neighborhood, I honestly hope they don't frack in your back yard. I'm just not entirely convinced you know why you don't want it.
"See a broad to get dat booty yak 'em, leg 'er down, a smack 'em yak 'em!"
I'm assuming that you know why the poverty rates are so high in those areas. Mountaintop removal is as drastic as it sounds. Lots of blasting, on top of slurry spills, landslides/mudslides, etc. Everybody who could afford to leave, did. Leaving only the poorest residents. It's not a matter of people all moving there to work and then not being able to leave. It's a coal company coming in and blowing the mountaintops to shit with explosives and people moving away. Blowing the top off a mountain and fracking are two different things. This is an inhabited area that lost residents due to the industry, not a town building up around an industry and being left high and dry when the resources ran out.
You'll notice three counties in that map that are among the highest poverty rate, yet don't have mining sites in them. So why is that?
Anyways, I'm going to make like DS1119 and get out. Have fun at your Fracking thing. If you don't want fracking in your neighborhood, I honestly hope they don't frack in your back yard. I'm just not entirely convinced you know why you don't want it.
It's a contributor. Not the reason for it.
Also in regard to mountaintop removal: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/Mining-the-Mountain.html?c=y&page=1 Just a really solid piece you should read. Why is the State of West Virginia suing the EPA if it isn't such a big deal and claiming that stopping progress is having such an effect on its local economy and residents? It's not just some company coming in.
'"You have people who don't realize it is our livelihood here—it always has been, always will be," says Nancy Skaggs, who lives just outside Ansted. Her husband is a retired miner and her son does mine-site reclamation work. "Most of those against [mining] are people who have moved into this area. They don't appreciate what the coal industry does for this area. My husband's family has been here since before the Civil War, and always in the coal industry."
The dispute highlights the town's—and state's—predicament. West Virginia is the nation's third-poorest state, above only Mississippi and Arkansas in per capita income, and the poverty is concentrated in the coal fields: in Ansted's Fayette County, 20 percent of the population lives below the poverty line, compared with 16 percent in the state and 12 percent nationwide. For decades, mining has been the only industry in dozens of small West Virginia towns.'
I don't want hydraulic fracturing for ALL the reasons that have been listed, particularly because of the problems it creates for humans and our environment due to pollution. I honestly don't know how you can sit there and make a statement like that. You don't even know who I am. Not only are you telling me I'm assuming these things (even with an endless supply of data and research), you are making light of the situation, telling me what I actually mean, and letting me know that I don't know why I don't support fracking. On top of all that, you referred to me as a "pussy". How incredibly ignorant. You have provided nothing that supports what you are saying and neglected to address my many questions. Please stick to your word and see your way out.
I was really kind of kidding on that "pussy" thing. But I say what I mean and mean what I say, so I was getting at the idea of "just say it". If you're saying my comments are shallow or whatever, don't act like you're not saying that about me. It's like saying "I'm not saying you're an idiot, but what you say is idiotic." It's the same thing.
I can post charts/graphs too.
Doesn't necessarily make it relevant.
I didn't think I was making light of any situation. Like I said. I understand why people would be against fracking. You got mad at the "pussy" comment but continue to throw out terms like "bullshit", "shallow" and "ignorant" when it comes to me.
If anything I think you're making light of serious situations in order to use them to pad your argument. My entire stance has been "stick to the facts".
If you really want to walk the walk, stop using natural gas. Here's a hint, you can't.
"See a broad to get dat booty yak 'em, leg 'er down, a smack 'em yak 'em!"
I'm strongly opposed to fracking. In PA our governor has sold off almost all the land for a pittance to gas companies. So great that so many want to destroy our resources, right in our back yard. :roll:
Stardog, you prob should've kept the argument to the devastating environmental and health impacts, which is all the argument anyone needs on this issue.
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I'm strongly opposed to fracking. In PA our governor has sold off almost all the land for a pittance to gas companies. So great that so many want to destroy our resources, right in our back yard. :roll:
Stardog, you prob should've kept the argument to the devastating environmental and health impacts, which is all the argument anyone needs on this issue.
Yeah, it's ridiculous. It should be interesting to see how this plays out in Ohio. Probably very similar.
And those are the only arguments truly needed, but I like facts. And while those not may be the strongest arguments, I think all things need to be considered. In 2010 our GDP was 14.59 trillion dollars. If we don't increase that each year by 3%, we are looked at as "in trouble". How is it possible to keep on sustaining that year in and year out? Especially when we are relying on finite natural resources and consumption being a large part of the problem. Now we just grasp at whatever comes our way without looking at the environmental and social effects? I think it's important to note the effects that these boom and bust industries/our economy have on people as well- which very often gets overlooked. Having the facts and knowledge surrounding the entire issue allow people to truly understand the depth and the bigger issue at hand. And when talking with social scientists, these effects are real and need to be noted. It's almost as if fracking is a symbol of the much larger conflict.
I definitely understand what you were saying but I just really don't care if some guys went on some crazy rant with lack of complete and unbiased knowledge and no facts to back up what was being said. Definitely is an example of how complex and wicked a lot of our problems are.
Best of luck to you and thanks for your input! It's appreciated!
Comments
I realize many things contribute to addiction, which is why I find it silly you're throwing that into the Fracking issue.
I don't know how Fracking is going to be in Ohio, but here in Texas there aren't communities built around or dependent on it. At least not that I know of. It's just another thing that goes on around here. It's not like old coal mining or steel mill towns where the entire town was built around the mine/mill and if it shut down the entire community was dead. Any business shutting down can have an adverse affect on the local economy, that doesn't mean nobody should ever try to start one up because one day it might close down and cause economic ripples.
I'm not necessarily for or against Fracking. I've heard the good/bad stories, and heard the other side supposedly debunk the other side. Heard stories of exploding water, etc. I don't really know. I just think you're adding some unnecessary arguments to your side.
As for it's not anybody's place to judge how people spend their money. If we're talking about these people who have hypothetically lost their livelihood, have fallen into poverty, and are now abusing drugs and alcohol, I feel pretty comfortable saying they shouldn't be spending money they supposedly don't have on getting fucked up. It's just common sense. On one hand you're saying "where will these people get money to relocate and get new jobs?" and on the other hand saying they'll be spending money on drugs and alcohol and we shouldn't judge them for that.
I think there are some good arguments against Fracking, all I'm saying is I don't think this is one of them.
You better have a fracking job.
I don't. The one business in my town closed its doors so I'm now unemployed, an alcoholic, and a drug addict. I blame them not the fact that I'm too lazy to find another job or possibly even move. :fp:
I understand what you are saying and see where you are coming from.
I think socially there are more important issues as well, like the infrastructure issue and the inflation in those areas which can make things difficult for long time residents. I think if you do some extensive research you will recognize that these things are very present and some of the rural communities are already seeing the effects of these things. I can send you some information if you would like.
However, I think including EVERYTHING is important as I do not enjoy just picking and choosing things. To some of these people, addiction is a serious psychological effect for workers in these communities and that is why I included it in a list of social effects.
I would not mind posting the benefits here as well just for people to draw their own conclusion- some of which have been touched on: http://www.heatingoil.com/articles/hydraulic-fracturing-hydrofracking-the-risks-and-rewards-of-the-controversial-drilling-technique1130/
I just think you should stick to the Fracking Specific issues, otherwise you just sound like you're against any kind of commerce what-so-ever. Addiction isn't specific to fracking. People abusing drugs/alcohol because they're depressed about losing their job or whatever can happen to anybody with any job. And I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the idea of protecting people from getting fired (and all that comes with being unemployed) by just not letting them have the job in the first place.
Who's this targeted at? :?
I'm for sustainable economic growth. I'm not trying to protect anybody from getting fired. I'm talking about communities who are dependent on these natural resources and the social effects when you have these boom and bust type industries. Not to mention, all the environmental issues and the fact that this is not going to be something we can depend on forever -- which are my biggest concerns. However, as I noted, we often do not include effects on society and quality of life. This is just one example of the larger issue we have created and that is an economy where we solely focus on GDP and nothing else. Don't tell me what to do...worry about yourself. To some people, I'm not "coming off" the way you interpret. Like I said we all interpret and dissect things differently, which is why I did not want to argue about this in the first place and was using it as a way to just let people know about the groups of people joining in Columbus, OH June 14-17 to show that they are against fracking in their neighborhoods. But I do appreciate you keeping this on top of the AET forum and I appreciate you voicing your concerns until you start becoming intentionally disrespectful and start saying bullshit based on your shallow thoughts.
This wasn't really called for.
I didn't really mean to offend you but it is what you are kind of saying just in a summarized wise ass kind of way. And living in Albany and being from Utica with all of my family still living there I am in the middle of the fracking debate actually.
Wait... what the hell did I say? And what happened to the "respectable debate". Because I disagree with some of your points my comments are "bullshit" and I'm shallow?
I'm not saying that at all. You twisted my words to make it seem over-exaggerated and to be a smart ass. I know that is where you are from- there are tons of us that are right in the thick of it. I just happen to be concerned about it and wanting to become involved in at least letting our government know that I am against it. I am trying to inform those others who feel the same way I do that there is a very well put together gathering happening in June for those interested, especially to those people, like me, who rarely go over to AMT. There was no need for anyone to come in here and start arguing it from the get go, but I'm also not going to just let people discredit an important issue.
Especially now that things are just rolling along here in Ohio: http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2012/05/25/legislature-oks-tighter-rules-for-fracking-shale.html
Your last comments were shallow and BS, not you. There was no depth behind them and just assumptions summarized and derived from my comments that fit your thinking. You broke them down to simplest terms without taking into consideration the problem at hand. I at least tried to answer your concerns and offered data and evidence.
"I just think you should stick to the Fracking Specific issues, otherwise you just sound like you're against any kind of commerce what-so-ever." I sound like this to you. Why should your ideas form my framework for reasoning?
"Addiction isn't specific to fracking. People abusing drugs/alcohol because they're depressed about losing their job or whatever can happen to anybody with any job." I understand that and that is why I mentioned about sustainable economic growth in general helping aid this situation.
"I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the idea of protecting people from getting fired (and all that comes with being unemployed) by just not letting them have the job in the first place." Why should we put people in this position? Why not get them in other job training programs and in industries that are going to allow them to provide for their families over longer periods of time? Congress should be pressing and investing in those industries to promote job growth. Not controversial, finite resources.
Alright bud. Have fun at your protest or whatever. The way I see it you just don't like people disagreeing with you. And a lot of what you're talking about is based on assumption too. Like I said, I'm not necessarily for fracking, I just think you should stick to the facts (which I think are plentiful as you know) and not water down your position with predictions about human affects based on the outdated model of old coal mining towns. You say it's nobody's business to say how people should spend their money, yet you're making it your business to say how they should make a living by saying they should get other jobs or training programs.
Oh, and don't be a pussy. Just call me shallow and full of bullshit. Don't give me that "your comments are" horseshit. I know what you mean.
I don't care if you disagree with me. I just really do not like you making light of what I'm saying and acting like I'm pulling it out of thin air. What is your background in this? What have you read that gives you your knowledge? And why would I call you shallow and full of BS? I don't even know you. I think your statements were though. How do you know what I mean when you don't know me?
Since the only thing you can focus on are the social effects and are claiming that what I am saying are assumptions, I pulled up a few of the charts depicting the poverty and drop in population in the coal mining towns from the 2000s, not even taking into account the current issues they are having with the Spruce 1 controversy. These types of situations ARE relevant because they are a similar type of industry- ones dependent on finite natural resources. Typically, in most industries, we learn from past models. There are many other examples that can be put into the place of the coal mining example. I am also including recent articles depicting the social issues in some of the areas where gas drilling is already occurring. I can provide more things if needed, but I'm really hope we can just agree to disagree and you can move on from this thread.:
Oil Boomtowns See Rise In Drunken Driving and Bar Fights, Threatening To Overwhelm Law Enforcement
Huff Post Business – Marc Levy – October 26, 2011
TOWANDA, Pa. — In a modern-day echo of the raucous Old West, small towns enjoying a boom in oil and gas drilling are seeing a sharp increase in drunken driving, bar fights and other hell-raising, blamed largely on an influx of young men who find themselves with lots of money in their pockets and nothing to do after they get off work. In Bradford County, Pennsylvania’s most heavily drilled county in the 3-year-old rush to tap the Marcellus Shale, the nation’s largest-known natural gas reservoir, the stream of men from Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana and elsewhere has been accompanied by increases in arrests, traffic violations, protection-from-abuse orders and warrants issued for people who don’t show up in court, law enforcement officials said. In the heart of western North Dakota’s oil patch, driving under the influence and assaults have spiked after thousands of workers descended on the area and settled in apartments and trailer villages known as “man camps.”
Locals to big oil: We want our town back!
CNN – Blake Ellis – October 24, 2011
WATFORD CITY, N.D. (CNNMoney) — For those who have spent their entire lives in the previously quiet farm towns that dot the northwestern corner of North Dakota, the discovery of oil in the Bakken formation has been anything but fortuitous. The thousands of people from around the country flocking to these boomtowns has led to a housing shortage and an increase in traffic, crime and frustration among the locals who feel like their small, close-knit towns are now gone forever. “At first, we were excited about the prospect of bringing in new people and money … but it slammed us so hard, in such a little time that a lot of locals now are kind of resentful,” said Deone Lawlar, a 57-year-old native of Watford City, which is located in the middle of the oil play. “Now we want our town back.” The land Lawlar’s home is built on has belonged to her family for generations. Last year, the dirt trail that led to her house was extended past her home by an oil exploration company to build two oil rigs, a pipeline company and housing facilities for oil workers. Now, the once-solitary road plays host to semi trucks at all hours of the day. Many drivers throw trash out their windows as they speed by. Lawlar said she even came home one evening to find a truck driver urinating on her lawn. “The quiet peaceful country life as we know it is a thing of the past,” said Lawlar. She and her husband used to joke that their next move would be to the cemetery. Now, it looks like it might be Bismarck.
Increased Gas Drilling Activities Bringing New Challenges to Local Governments in Pennsylvania
PR Newswire – May 24, 2011
HARRISBURG, Pa., May 24 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ — Counties and municipalities across Pennsylvania where natural gas drilling is taking place — particularly in the Northern Tier region — are also struggling to meet a number of additional challenges associated with the industry’s increased presence and rapid growth, according to state officials. PennDOT Secretary Allen D. Biehler, P.E. and Pennsylvania State Police Commissioner Frank Pawlowski today said that in the wake of the drilling, there have been increases in truck traffic, traffic violations, crime, demand for social services, and the number of miles of roads that are in need of repairs….More and more, it seems the police reports coming out of the northern tier include arrests because of drug use and trafficking, fights involving rig workers, DUIs, and weapons being brought into the state and not registered properly,” said the commissioner. “We’ve even encountered situations where drilling company employees who have been convicted of a sexual assault in another state come here to work and do not register with our Megan’s Law website. Each of these issues is unacceptable and places an even greater burden on our law enforcement and local social programs meant to help those in need.”
Must crime follow Pennsylvania’s gas drilling boom?
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette – Zach Needles – August 15, 2011
In Bradford County, Pa., drunken driving arrests are up 60 percent. Criminal sentencing was up 35 percent in 2010. And in Towanda, the county seat, DUI arrests were up 50 percent. Why? The frenzy of Marcellus Shale natural gas drilling, which has boosted the economies of some of Pennsylvania’s smallest and most rural counties in recent years, has also led to rapid population swells and — by extension — more crime.
Boomtown Blues
How natural gas changed the way of life in Sublette County
New Yorker – Alexandra Fuller – February 5, 2007
LETTER FROM WYOMING about how natural gas has changed the way of life in Sublette County. The annual Rendezvous Rodeo, held the second weekend in July, is the largest of the season in Sublette County, Wyoming. Roper Saul Bencomo was on the 14th team to ride. Seated next to the writer, Bencomo’s wife, Holly Davis, smiled. Davis is a third-generation cowgirl. The two work for local ranchers. This part of Wyoming is experiencing a boom in natural-gas exploitation, but locals still refer to the drilling fields as “the oil patch.” Sublette, with a population of 7,000, insists on its identity as a ranching community. But the truth is that oil-patch jobs-and the accompanying crime and drug use-are overwhelming ranching in the community. Since 2000, almost 1,800 new wells have been added, and 7,000 more have been approved for drilling in the next 10 years. Energy companies are pushing for unfettered access to private and public lands in the area. Wyoming’s leaders are almost all pro-energy development. Mentions Gillette syndrome-the depression and lawlessness that come with mineral wealth. A recent report by Ralph Boynton shows the Sublette crime rate rising by 30% from 2004 to 2005; air quality and the quality of life have also been affected. With the arrival, since 2000, of nearly 3,000 roughnecks, off-rig boredom has increased and this helps explain some of exploding crime rate. Fueling all this is the growing use of methamphetamines-primarily crystal meth, the roughneck’s drug of choice. “They’ve ripped the roots out of the very thing they say they care about: community values, family values, property rights,” Botur said.
I'm assuming that you know why the poverty rates are so high in those areas. Mountaintop removal is as drastic as it sounds. Lots of blasting, on top of slurry spills, landslides/mudslides, etc. Everybody who could afford to leave, did. Leaving only the poorest residents. It's not a matter of people all moving there to work and then not being able to leave. It's a coal company coming in and blowing the mountaintops to shit with explosives and people moving away. Blowing the top off a mountain and fracking are two different things. This is an inhabited area that lost residents due to the industry, not a town building up around an industry and being left high and dry when the resources ran out.
You'll notice three counties in that map that are among the highest poverty rate, yet don't have mining sites in them. So why is that?
Anyways, I'm going to make like DS1119 and get out. Have fun at your Fracking thing. If you don't want fracking in your neighborhood, I honestly hope they don't frack in your back yard. I'm just not entirely convinced you know why you don't want it.
It's a contributor. Not the reason for it.
Also in regard to mountaintop removal: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/Mining-the-Mountain.html?c=y&page=1 Just a really solid piece you should read. Why is the State of West Virginia suing the EPA if it isn't such a big deal and claiming that stopping progress is having such an effect on its local economy and residents? It's not just some company coming in.
'"You have people who don't realize it is our livelihood here—it always has been, always will be," says Nancy Skaggs, who lives just outside Ansted. Her husband is a retired miner and her son does mine-site reclamation work. "Most of those against [mining] are people who have moved into this area. They don't appreciate what the coal industry does for this area. My husband's family has been here since before the Civil War, and always in the coal industry."
The dispute highlights the town's—and state's—predicament. West Virginia is the nation's third-poorest state, above only Mississippi and Arkansas in per capita income, and the poverty is concentrated in the coal fields: in Ansted's Fayette County, 20 percent of the population lives below the poverty line, compared with 16 percent in the state and 12 percent nationwide. For decades, mining has been the only industry in dozens of small West Virginia towns.'
I don't want hydraulic fracturing for ALL the reasons that have been listed, particularly because of the problems it creates for humans and our environment due to pollution. I honestly don't know how you can sit there and make a statement like that. You don't even know who I am. Not only are you telling me I'm assuming these things (even with an endless supply of data and research), you are making light of the situation, telling me what I actually mean, and letting me know that I don't know why I don't support fracking. On top of all that, you referred to me as a "pussy". How incredibly ignorant. You have provided nothing that supports what you are saying and neglected to address my many questions. Please stick to your word and see your way out.
I can post charts/graphs too.
Doesn't necessarily make it relevant.
I didn't think I was making light of any situation. Like I said. I understand why people would be against fracking. You got mad at the "pussy" comment but continue to throw out terms like "bullshit", "shallow" and "ignorant" when it comes to me.
If anything I think you're making light of serious situations in order to use them to pad your argument. My entire stance has been "stick to the facts".
If you really want to walk the walk, stop using natural gas. Here's a hint, you can't.
It is nice to hear your social /environmental awareness and concern :thumbup:
Thanks!!
Speaking of meatloaf: http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/life_and_entertainment/2012/05/29/fracking-bosses-would-choke-if-tables-turned.html
How so?
How do you know I'm not walking the walk?
I'm really interested in the June 16 panel with Bill McKibben from 350.org, Josh Fox- director of Gasland, among others. Should be interesting!
Stardog, you prob should've kept the argument to the devastating environmental and health impacts, which is all the argument anyone needs on this issue.
WF Center 4/28/16; WF Center 4/29/16; Fenway Park 8/7/16; Fenway Park 9/2/18; Asbury Park 9/18/21; Camden 9/14/22;
Las Vegas 5/16/24; Las Vegas 5/18/24; WF Center 9/7/24; WF Center 9/9/24; Baltimore Arena 9/12/24
Tres Mtns - TLA 3/23/11; EV - Tower Theatre 6/25/11; Temple of the Dog - Tower Theatre 11/5/16
Yeah, it's ridiculous. It should be interesting to see how this plays out in Ohio. Probably very similar.
And those are the only arguments truly needed, but I like facts. And while those not may be the strongest arguments, I think all things need to be considered. In 2010 our GDP was 14.59 trillion dollars. If we don't increase that each year by 3%, we are looked at as "in trouble". How is it possible to keep on sustaining that year in and year out? Especially when we are relying on finite natural resources and consumption being a large part of the problem. Now we just grasp at whatever comes our way without looking at the environmental and social effects? I think it's important to note the effects that these boom and bust industries/our economy have on people as well- which very often gets overlooked. Having the facts and knowledge surrounding the entire issue allow people to truly understand the depth and the bigger issue at hand. And when talking with social scientists, these effects are real and need to be noted. It's almost as if fracking is a symbol of the much larger conflict.
I definitely understand what you were saying but I just really don't care if some guys went on some crazy rant with lack of complete and unbiased knowledge and no facts to back up what was being said. Definitely is an example of how complex and wicked a lot of our problems are.
Best of luck to you and thanks for your input! It's appreciated!