And rosin sits on the mound right? I don't know, from what I understand it sounds like they have no choice but to come down hard initially at least to make sure all this shit is followed. But make no mistake on my part, this is much the MLB's Office for getting to this point. But, regardless, pitchers - stop fucking bitching and moaning and adjust. I mean they've said there's literal chemists working for teams. This isn't a matter of arguing whether they're banning the shift, which would be fucking stupid. This is a matter of the game being strikeouts and upper cut home runs. Not fun baseball.
One former player was calling out that Michael Hill who is apparently MLB's VP of on-field operations and one of the leaders here who was formerly with the Marlins and at that time and a huge champion of it telling pitchers they need to use it. It's all so hypocritical and the only reason they care is because people are complaining about offense and $$$
Glasnow said he used sunscreen/rosin. I also hear his point that this is something baseball people either pushed at worst, or ignored at best, and now they are changing how pitchers need to adjust mid-season and could very well lead to injuries.
Certainly not denying it got out of control or that something needs to be done, but it's just all so hypocritical.
Well, yeah, for sure. But I think reverting to just not doing anything about because that would be hypocritical is kinda silly. MLB is absolutely being reactionary, but no time like the present. And any pitcher copping out to that just sounds dumb. Just be clear about what's allowed, what isn't, and give pitchers enough runway/lead-time to adjust accordingly and the rosin provided at the mound should be enough, chemically synthesized materials and anything else that makes it sound like your clapping when the ball comes out of your hand should not.
And I go back to F Me's point that you probably wouldn't get injured if you're not trying to throw as hard you can while trying to make the ball dance like a wiffleball eephus.
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F Me In The Brain
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No sunscreen for "night" games? 730 starts, right?
The sun is still pretty bright -- pitchers are gonna bitch about that, saying that MLB is giving them skin cancer, I imagine? Or, will they just throw it to a teammate who has sunscreen on? Have them rub it up and then they can grab the rosin bag behind the mound?
Well, yeah, for sure. But I think reverting to just not doing anything about because that would be hypocritical is kinda silly. MLB is absolutely being reactionary, but no time like the present. And any pitcher copping out to that just sounds dumb. Just be clear about what's allowed, what isn't, and give pitchers enough runway/lead-time to adjust accordingly and the rosin provided at the mound should be enough, chemically synthesized materials and anything else that makes it sound like your clapping when the ball comes out of your hand should not.
And I go back to F Me's point that you probably wouldn't get injured if you're not trying to throw as hard you can while trying to make the ball dance like a wiffleball eephus.
Gerrit Cole's 103rd and 104th pitch last night were a 101 FB and a 95 changeup. I don't think much is going to change unless a bunch of UCLs start going, which would also be horrible for the game.
I am not saying do nothing, at all. Every player on that union call (or whoever it was) that has been highlighted, batters included, have no problem with sunscreen/rosin, from what I read. The balls are clearly different than they were 20 years ago, and tampering with them have been going on since the beginning of the game. Rosin clearly isn't enough anymore and the game changes. I think there should be some agreed upon substance, something like rosin/sunscreen or something pinetar related that everyone has on the mound.
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F Me In The Brain
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There will be guys who throw hard....it just isn't likely to be 80% of the guys who can go 95+ or whatever crazy number it is now.
Or, the mascots better be wary like in Bull Durham.
No sunscreen for "night" games? 730 starts, right?
The sun is still pretty bright -- pitchers are gonna bitch about that, saying that MLB is giving them skin cancer, I imagine? Or, will they just throw it to a teammate who has sunscreen on? Have them rub it up and then they can grab the rosin bag behind the mound?
Right..and they are out there earlier getting ready. Once all this dies down, not sure how you regulate sunscreen, which is basically my point as to why a blanket ban is dumb. A 10 day vacation with pay or you possibly get hurt/lose money. Pretty sure pitchers are going to go back to taking the risk.
No sunscreen for "night" games? 730 starts, right?
The sun is still pretty bright -- pitchers are gonna bitch about that, saying that MLB is giving them skin cancer, I imagine? Or, will they just throw it to a teammate who has sunscreen on? Have them rub it up and then they can grab the rosin bag behind the mound?
Right..and they are out there earlier getting ready. Once all this dies down, not sure how you regulate sunscreen, which is basically my point as to why a blanket ban is dumb. A 10 day vacation with pay or you possibly get hurt/lose money. Pretty sure pitchers are going to go back to taking the risk.
And that's why you're going to see some big names get the hammer dropped on them - fairly or unfairly.
There will be guys who throw hard....it just isn't likely to be 80% of the guys who can go 95+ or whatever crazy number it is now.
Or, the mascots better be wary like in Bull Durham.
This. It's like in the steroid era for hitters. The great hitters were still great, but then you had complete bullshit like Brady Anderson hitting 50 homers. Average pitchers have been pitching above average and great pitchers have been unhittable. I mean, there were already 5 no-hitters in May. I doubt we'll see another one this season and struggling offenses start to come alive.
MLB has not handled much of anything well over the last 20 years. Players, coaches and management are all in on these scandals because it's about the $$$. They just lost out on a ton of revenue last year so they're itching to get people back in the stands. That usually means the pitchers suffer so people get their boom boom happy kicks with the long balls flying. Much like hitters want to jack the ball, pitchers want to hurl a fireball. Control pitchers are tough to find these days.
No sunscreen for "night" games? 730 starts, right?
The sun is still pretty bright -- pitchers are gonna bitch about that, saying that MLB is giving them skin cancer, I imagine? Or, will they just throw it to a teammate who has sunscreen on? Have them rub it up and then they can grab the rosin bag behind the mound?
Right..and they are out there earlier getting ready. Once all this dies down, not sure how you regulate sunscreen, which is basically my point as to why a blanket ban is dumb. A 10 day vacation with pay or you possibly get hurt/lose money. Pretty sure pitchers are going to go back to taking the risk.
And that's why you're going to see some big names get the hammer dropped on them - fairly or unfairly.
But what is the hammer? Cole and Glasnow basically admitted this is the first time they haven't used anything, and it doesn't seem like they're very ashamed to do so. The punishment is a missed start with full pay.
I thought I read they're going to end up suspending with pay. I'm assuming right now it's with full pay for now, intially, as part of that ease-in. I have to think it goes up from there, and the only way anyone will follow suit if it ends up being big name players and not some AAAA guy.
There will be guys who throw hard....it just isn't likely to be 80% of the guys who can go 95+ or whatever crazy number it is now.
Or, the mascots better be wary like in Bull Durham.
Sticky stuff does not make you throw faster. It makes your rotation higher and makes the ball dance more on a curve or stay higher longer on a fastball.
I thought I read they're going to end up suspending with pay. I'm assuming right now it's with full pay for now, intially, as part of that ease-in. I have to think it goes up from there, and the only way anyone will follow suit if it ends up being big name players and not some AAAA guy.
I assume they’re avoiding an all out war on this topic with the CBA coming up and they’ll go from there
I thought I read they're going to end up suspending with pay. I'm assuming right now it's with full pay for now, intially, as part of that ease-in. I have to think it goes up from there, and the only way anyone will follow suit if it ends up being big name players and not some AAAA guy.
I assume they’re avoiding an all out war on this topic with the CBA coming up and they’ll go from there
But how much is your head gonna explode when it's Cole?
I thought I read they're going to end up suspending with pay. I'm assuming right now it's with full pay for now, intially, as part of that ease-in. I have to think it goes up from there, and the only way anyone will follow suit if it ends up being big name players and not some AAAA guy.
I assume they’re avoiding an all out war on this topic with the CBA coming up and they’ll go from there
But how much is your head gonna explode when it's Cole?
At the end of the day, Cole is going to be one of the better pitchers in baseball whether it's a 2 something ERA or a 3 something. He didn't have as many strikeouts last night, but he was throwing 101 on the corner in the 8th, so not too concerned.
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F Me In The Brain
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There will be guys who throw hard....it just isn't likely to be 80% of the guys who can go 95+ or whatever crazy number it is now.
Or, the mascots better be wary like in Bull Durham.
Sticky stuff does not make you throw faster. It makes your rotation higher and makes the ball dance more on a curve or stay higher longer on a fastball.
The pitchers are saying sticky stuff is needed to allow for better grip and control. Cora was equating better control allowing pitchers to throw as hard as they can rather than focus on throwing as hard as they can with proper control.
I thought I read they're going to end up suspending with pay. I'm assuming right now it's with full pay for now, intially, as part of that ease-in. I have to think it goes up from there, and the only way anyone will follow suit if it ends up being big name players and not some AAAA guy.
I assume they’re avoiding an all out war on this topic with the CBA coming up and they’ll go from there
But how much is your head gonna explode when it's Cole?
At the end of the day, Cole is going to be one of the better pitchers in baseball whether it's a 2 something ERA or a 3 something. He didn't have as many strikeouts last night, but he was throwing 101 on the corner in the 8th, so not too concerned.
No, I'm saying when he's made the example and suspended x amount of games.
There will be guys who throw hard....it just isn't likely to be 80% of the guys who can go 95+ or whatever crazy number it is now.
Or, the mascots better be wary like in Bull Durham.
Sticky stuff does not make you throw faster. It makes your rotation higher and makes the ball dance more on a curve or stay higher longer on a fastball.
The pitchers are saying sticky stuff is needed to allow for better grip and control. Cora was equating better control allowing pitchers to throw as hard as they can rather than focus on throwing as hard as they can with proper control.
It's spin rate. Everything mentioned is about spin rate. The day after the story came out about Cole they measured his spin rate which went down.
It helps with control, yes but it's the spin that messes up the batters.
I thought I read they're going to end up suspending with pay. I'm assuming right now it's with full pay for now, intially, as part of that ease-in. I have to think it goes up from there, and the only way anyone will follow suit if it ends up being big name players and not some AAAA guy.
I assume they’re avoiding an all out war on this topic with the CBA coming up and they’ll go from there
But how much is your head gonna explode when it's Cole?
At the end of the day, Cole is going to be one of the better pitchers in baseball whether it's a 2 something ERA or a 3 something. He didn't have as many strikeouts last night, but he was throwing 101 on the corner in the 8th, so not too concerned.
No, I'm saying when he's made the example and suspended x amount of games.
I get it. I don't think it's really going to happen. He's clearly the face of it because of the non-answer, but I think they'll align on a solution as part of the CBA
There will be guys who throw hard....it just isn't likely to be 80% of the guys who can go 95+ or whatever crazy number it is now.
Or, the mascots better be wary like in Bull Durham.
Sticky stuff does not make you throw faster. It makes your rotation higher and makes the ball dance more on a curve or stay higher longer on a fastball.
The pitchers are saying sticky stuff is needed to allow for better grip and control. Cora was equating better control allowing pitchers to throw as hard as they can rather than focus on throwing as hard as they can with proper control.
It's spin rate. Everything mentioned is about spin rate. The day after the story came out about Cole they measured his spin rate which went down.
It helps with control, yes but it's the spin that messes up the batters.
I disagree that this is all about spin rate. Yes, that is one of the key focuses but there is talk about the control, overall.
Not only the Alex Cora article but also heard Rob Dibble talking about it and how long guys have been messing with the ball just to try and get a better grip, so that you have better control.
Spin Rate is the thing that caused Bauer to slam MLB a few years back and keep referencing. (Up until he started cheating with the stuff himself, to prove his point, it is suspected.) Certainly Spin Rate is a big way to measure and has been an analytics focus for teams to the point of obsession. This goop has allowed that to jump, as many articles pointed out and that ding dong from the Twins pointed out about Cole.
Ghiroli: MLB’s plan to crack down on pitchers’ foreign substance use has created an even messier debate
By Brittany Ghiroli Jun 16, 2021 73
Did anyone think Tuesday’s long-awaited memo detailing Major League Baseball’s plans to crack down on pitchers’ use of foreign substances would truly be the end of the debate?
No sooner had MLB vice president Michael Hill’s email to all players and teams hit inboxes — and, moments later, MLB’s official press release to the media — before an already messy, embarrassing saga got messier and more embarrassing. It took minutes for players to give their (mostly dissenting) opinions on social media and mere hours for Rays pitcher Tyler Glasnow to drive home a terrifying theory: that going without sunscreen and rosin had, at least in part, contributed to the UCL tear in his elbow.
Whether Glasnow’s assessment is accurate is not the question. There is a faction of pitchers, veterans and rookies alike, who are terrified to throw with absolutely zero substances. There’s a league — actively working with an outside company to create an approved substance that doesn’t skyrocket spin rates — that knows using nothing is not the long-term answer. And yet even if MLB decided tomorrow to change its memo and allow sunscreen mixed with rosin — a popular rallying cry among some players — it wouldn’t solve the problem.
Yes, sunscreen is fairly benign on a scale of bare hands to Spider Tack. Yes, the players held a Zoom meeting on June 8 attended by more than 40 people (mostly team union reps) and the vast majority of hitters and pitchers didn’t have a problem with sunscreen-rosin use. But in the right hands with the right amount, MLB found an RPM increase up to 200 (other independent studies have shown it to be slightly lower). It’s not crazy to think within days clubs that are employing chemists and mixing their own sticky stuff will have something that looks like sunscreen and smells like sunscreen and definitely isn’t sunscreen.
The same logic applies to having a universal rag on the mound by the rosin bag. You give an inch, and “people will reverse engineer their own substance that’s a lot tackier and a lot stickier (than the rag),” said one league executive involved in the process. “The enforcement process is tricky and does require bright lines as we sit here today.”
The lines are exactly the problem. No one can agree: What gray area wouldn’t be taken advantage of? How do you judge a pitcher’s intent? Where is the line between common sense and chaos?
There are pitchers who are scared to go cold turkey, who genuinely worry about grabbing a slick ball in a dry Arizona stadium and hitting guys in the face. “It’s the stuff of my nightmares,” said one pitcher. Many scoff at the oversimplified notion that pitchers “should take a little off” or “command better.” A 10-year veteran who has made his living as a power pitcher, who has gotten paid to strike out hitters, doesn’t just wake up and become a finesse guy overnight. Just like hitters who get paid to hit home runs don’t decide they want to instead lead the league in hits. You do what gets you paid and fixing approaches — on both sides — takes years and fundamental changes in player development and the free agency system. Guys will tinker with grips and muscle the ball, like Glasnow said he did, before they go out there and get pummeled. It’s perhaps better to be hurt than bad.
MLB, late to the party in enforcing the rule by all accounts, has bungled player punishment before. Imagine if they weren’t tough this time around, when players are still referring to the immunity of Astros players. Perhaps the league knew it couldn’t be seen as soft on this and maybe public outrage was reason enough to draw such a hard line. Allowing sunscreen and rosin and looking the other way on pine tar is how things like Spider Tack got off Strongman Atlas stones and into baseball vernacular. You give an inch, some teams and players will take a mile. Now no one can be trusted, as evidenced by the sport’s recent, troubling past.
If there were more trust, at least between the players and the league, perhaps a more nuanced approach would work, like random ball collection and retroactive punishment. But that’s an easy way for conspiracy theories to abound and the league to be questioned about what balls it took and who was punished. The umpires are seen as the safe space, the easiest way to police the game between the lines.
And umpires don’t want to be bogged down with the gray area of the game. They want something easy and enforceable. It’s not their responsibility in a shifting game where the calls for robots to do their jobs get louder and louder to now be tasked with becoming an expert chemist for every guy who enters every game.
So, we’re stuck here. At least for now, because MLB drew a hard line and presented it to the MLB Players Association, which did not offer any input. A league source said the Players Association was given multiple chances to give input over a several-week span. Perhaps the Players Association could have been more proactive in trying. Maybe it wouldn’t haven’t mattered. Still, some players are frustrated and see this as a quick in-season decision on something that should have taken months or perhaps years to implement. But as spin rates are reported in real-time on Twitter — and players started complaining in the media — did MLB have the benefit of waiting any longer?
Still, wouldn’t it have behooved everyone to solicit more input from pitchers and teams? Hill’s memo said they spoke to current and former pitchers in the process. Some hitters and pitchers, who complained to the league and wanted this fixed, are satisfied. But because this is an existing rule, MLB had the ultimate say. Teams (which won’t be allowed to replace suspended players) and pitchers will adapt on the fly. But wouldn’t it have been smarter or savvier somehow to try to present a unified front among the league, its teams and all its players? Couldn’t the players union and MLB, who have a well-publicized distrustful relationship, have put aside their issues for this instead of watching it play out in the media?
Players do not get a say in the baseball that’s used. But when MLB presented tacky balls in spring training a few years back, the experiment was short-lived because pitchers’ feedback was that the balls were not good enough.
“Everyone agrees grip is important. That’s why rosin is legal,” said Tony Clark, executive director of the Players Association. “The question becomes whether rosin is sufficient or we should consider approved alternatives. This question has become more important given the changes and lack of consistency in the baseball in recent years.”
Tack, as it turns out, is a highly personal thing. Some guys like a thin layer of stuff, others want it thicker. Some put it on a few fingertips, others are more liberal. There are pine tar guys and sunscreen guys and most of them would agree that Spider Tack has no place in the game. Some players believe the easiest solution is to “get a tacky baseball and enforce the shit out of everything else.” But using a tackier ball with no substance would make your entire hand tacky. It would also cause a constant need for new balls to be put in play because that’s when they would be at their most effective. Even a universal substance rag would require significant feedback and tinkering during a period like spring training because every pitcher is a little different.
There is a legitimate fear, among some players and managers, that an in-season decision to go to nothing will cause injuries, though there’s no data to support that yet (and MLB’s memo did say it would monitor player health).
Dr. Mike Sonne, who has worked with teams on fatigue and injury prevention, said fatigue could be up 30 percent if players have to grip the ball harder.
It’s not as simple as telling pitchers who use any substance — estimated at more than 2/3 of the league — to throw bullpens with nothing. Many already do. There is no comparing a between-starts ‘pen to game speed. Just like there’s no comparison to the way it was 20-30 years ago when hit-by-pitches were considerably lower, spin rates weren’t tracked and strikeouts weren’t the only thing getting pitchers contracts. (It’s a lot easier to be a command guy when you’re getting the strike zone of a Greg Maddux, for example.)
Changes take time and, most importantly, they take collaboration and maybe that’s the craziest, most difficult solution of all: the players and league working together.
Why was there not a conversation about how to rewrite the rules and look at foreign substances and their threshold in a smart way? There are already monitors in every ballpark, months of data collected by the league. Why not determine what is enough grip for safety, the first, second or third fingertip? The knuckles? The palm? Ban the hard stuff — an 80-game suspension for Spider Tack and homemade concoctions — and let the players have a say, as part of a committee, in where the rest of the line is drawn?
Trying to level the playing field is a difficult, commendable thing. No solution is perfect. But if the best way to do that alienates a significant percentage of players who contribute to your on-field product, it’s fair to question the consequences, intended or not.
There will be guys who throw hard....it just isn't likely to be 80% of the guys who can go 95+ or whatever crazy number it is now.
Or, the mascots better be wary like in Bull Durham.
Sticky stuff does not make you throw faster. It makes your rotation higher and makes the ball dance more on a curve or stay higher longer on a fastball.
The pitchers are saying sticky stuff is needed to allow for better grip and control. Cora was equating better control allowing pitchers to throw as hard as they can rather than focus on throwing as hard as they can with proper control.
It's spin rate. Everything mentioned is about spin rate. The day after the story came out about Cole they measured his spin rate which went down.
It helps with control, yes but it's the spin that messes up the batters.
I disagree that this is all about spin rate. Yes, that is one of the key focuses but there is talk about the control, overall.
Not only the Alex Cora article but also heard Rob Dibble talking about it and how long guys have been messing with the ball just to try and get a better grip, so that you have better control.
Spin Rate is the thing that caused Bauer to slam MLB a few years back and keep referencing. (Up until he started cheating with the stuff himself, to prove his point, it is suspected.) Certainly Spin Rate is a big way to measure and has been an analytics focus for teams to the point of obsession. This goop has allowed that to jump, as many articles pointed out and that ding dong from the Twins pointed out about Cole.
I get your point in if they have better grip they can whip it faster. Completely understand that.
Koufax took a little off his pitches and became a master. Most pitchers nowadays just blow heat. There is no more finesse. The days of Nolan Ryan are here and days of Maddux are gone.
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F Me In The Brain
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Glasnow said he used sunscreen/rosin. I also hear his point that this is something baseball people either pushed at worst, or ignored at best, and now they are changing how pitchers need to adjust mid-season and could very well lead to injuries.
Certainly not denying it got out of control or that something needs to be done, but it's just all so hypocritical.
And I go back to F Me's point that you probably wouldn't get injured if you're not trying to throw as hard you can while trying to make the ball dance like a wiffleball eephus.
I am not saying do nothing, at all. Every player on that union call (or whoever it was) that has been highlighted, batters included, have no problem with sunscreen/rosin, from what I read. The balls are clearly different than they were 20 years ago, and tampering with them have been going on since the beginning of the game. Rosin clearly isn't enough anymore and the game changes. I think there should be some agreed upon substance, something like rosin/sunscreen or something pinetar related that everyone has on the mound.
Or, the mascots better be wary like in Bull Durham.
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MLB has not handled much of anything well over the last 20 years. Players, coaches and management are all in on these scandals because it's about the $$$. They just lost out on a ton of revenue last year so they're itching to get people back in the stands. That usually means the pitchers suffer so people get their boom boom happy kicks with the long balls flying. Much like hitters want to jack the ball, pitchers want to hurl a fireball. Control pitchers are tough to find these days.
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The pitchers are saying sticky stuff is needed to allow for better grip and control. Cora was equating better control allowing pitchers to throw as hard as they can rather than focus on throwing as hard as they can with proper control.
It helps with control, yes but it's the spin that messes up the batters.
https://theathletic.com/2656598/2021/06/16/ghiroli-mlbs-plan-to-crack-down-on-pitchers-foreign-substance-use-has-created-an-even-messier-debate/#
Koufax took a little off his pitches and became a master. Most pitchers nowadays just blow heat. There is no more finesse. The days of Nolan Ryan are here and days of Maddux are gone.