5000 Ryan and his benchmark for K's 3000 Clemente Very good. I was actually using this as a HOF benchmark. 500 A HR HOF Benchmark 300 Sutton? A Pitcher wins benchmark but a good guess. 130 Henderson steals Yes! 61 Maris Yes! 714 Ruth Yes! 1406 Henderson all time SB 755 Aaron Yes! 56 DiMaggio Yes! 7 Nolan Ryan no hitters Yes! 511 Cy Young Yes! 73 Barry Bonds Yes! 4191 Carlton? Ty Cobb hits but that was a great guess. 70 Mcgwire Yes! 4256 Pete Rose hits 406 I should have done .406 That was Ted Williams final avg after the double header. 383 Nolan Ryan Ks? Yes! He beat out Koufax by 1 that year.
Mike Trout is the best baseball player since Bonds
I agree with this 100%. I would argue that A-rod could be placed in that category too.
Pujols
Was 6 years ago but tailed off big time.
Bonds and A-rod could have played longer at a high level.
I just meant since Bonds, who was trailing off similarly til the juice. ARod has the talent but hard to quantify what he would’ve done without it. Pujols was the best offensive player for a decade, will end up with over 700 hr and .300 ba. Doubtful Bonds or ARod reach that plateau without roids.
Mike Trout is the best baseball player since Bonds
I agree with this 100%. I would argue that A-rod could be placed in that category too.
Pujols
Was 6 years ago but tailed off big time.
Bonds and A-rod could have played longer at a high level.
I just meant since Bonds, who was trailing off similarly til the juice. ARod has the talent but hard to quantify what he would’ve done without it. Pujols was the best offensive player for a decade, will end up with over 700 hr and .300 ba. Doubtful Bonds or ARod reach that plateau without roids.
That is tough to argue about PED's...
I will say this about Bonds and Arod, they were the best two players I have ever seen swing a bat with my own two eyes. Pujols is third on that list with Thomas 4th.
You could make an argument of connecting the dots or which one of these is not like the other but I still put Pujols third. He was doing what Frank Thomas, Bonds and Arod, did year after year. 100r, 100rbi, 30hr, 300avg and 100w. Crazy output.
You put these 4 players and look at their first 10-12 years and it's unbelievable. Just to think that Trout is still off the mark is just amazing because he is a beast.
5000 Ryan and his benchmark for K's 3000 Clemente Very good. I was actually using this as a HOF benchmark. 500 A HR HOF Benchmark 300 Sutton? A Pitcher wins benchmark but a good guess. 130 Henderson steals Yes! 61 Maris Yes! 714 Ruth Yes! 1406 Henderson all time SB 755 Aaron Yes! 56 DiMaggio Yes! 7 Nolan Ryan no hitters Yes! 511 Cy Young Yes! 73 Barry Bonds Yes! 4191 Carlton? Ty Cobb hits but that was a great guess. 70 Mcgwire Yes! 4256 Pete Rose hits 406 I should have done .406 That was Ted Williams final avg after the double header. 383 Nolan Ryan Ks? Yes! He beat out Koufax by 1 that year.
You did really good!
I should have gotten Pete Rose and Henderson career numbers. I was stumped on 300, 500, and 5000 (i guess 3000 also) as I thought it was specific player accomplishments.
5000 Ryan and his benchmark for K's 3000 Clemente Very good. I was actually using this as a HOF benchmark. 500 A HR HOF Benchmark 300 Sutton? A Pitcher wins benchmark but a good guess. 130 Henderson steals Yes! 61 Maris Yes! 714 Ruth Yes! 1406 Henderson all time SB 755 Aaron Yes! 56 DiMaggio Yes! 7 Nolan Ryan no hitters Yes! 511 Cy Young Yes! 73 Barry Bonds Yes! 4191 Carlton? Ty Cobb hits but that was a great guess. 70 Mcgwire Yes! 4256 Pete Rose hits 406 I should have done .406 That was Ted Williams final avg after the double header. 383 Nolan Ryan Ks? Yes! He beat out Koufax by 1 that year.
You did really good!
I should have gotten Pete Rose and Henderson career numbers. I was stumped on 300, 500, and 5000 (i guess 3000 also) as I thought it was specific player accomplishments.
It was my lame attempt at a segue to show how baseball is a numbers thing...
Metrics are ruining the game. What ever happened to making gut calls? Everything is based off fuckin spreadsheets with a bunch of theoretical numbers that don't prove squat.
Metrics are ruining the game. What ever happened to making gut calls? Everything is based off fuckin spreadsheets with a bunch of theoretical numbers that don't prove squat.
it does work for a long season. That's why the Dodgers were able to make the World Series the last 2 years. But they should allow managers to make gut calls in short playoff series. Yankees stuck to a script and got eliminated. The Dodgers stuck to a script and lost the WS twice because of it
Yeah, I get using them a scouting report (as I believe they are intended), but it shouldn't be your every decision maker. A computer spits out numbers, its up to us to figure out how to interpret those numbers and what to do with them. Control the metrics, don't let the metrics control you.
For that numbers list, I believe you'll have to lower the 300 wins bemchmark for a pitcher. The game now isn't conducive to pitchers accumulating lots of wins.
Yeah, I get using them a scouting report (as I believe they are intended), but it shouldn't be your every decision maker. A computer spits out numbers, its up to us to figure out how to interpret those numbers and what to do with them. Control the metrics, don't let the metrics control you.
it goes way beyond scouting reports. There's spin rates, launch angles, rotations on a pitch. Not believing in giving up outs. They'd rather you strike out than bunt a guy over. So many things we're not thinking about. It's more than "this guy can't hit lefties".
For that numbers list, I believe you'll have to lower the 300 wins bemchmark for a pitcher. The game now isn't conducive to pitchers accumulating lots of wins.
I get angry at the Angels every time I see how low Trout's RBI totals are...
They're respectable….for a leadoff hitter.
The Angels spent all that money on Pujols and I was happy at first but his numbers have been just ok. His OBP has dropped 100 points, runs,Rbi's, HR, all lower since joining the Angels. That is WITH having the best player in the world on the same team as him.
You'd think that they could adjust the lineup a little? Is Pujols too slow to put in front of Trout, is that the reasoning?
Yeah, I get using them a scouting report (as I believe they are intended), but it shouldn't be your every decision maker. A computer spits out numbers, its up to us to figure out how to interpret those numbers and what to do with them. Control the metrics, don't let the metrics control you.
it goes way beyond scouting reports. There's spin rates, launch angles, rotations on a pitch. Not believing in giving up outs. They'd rather you strike out than bunt a guy over. So many things we're not thinking about. It's more than "this guy can't hit lefties".
All of that stuff can be used in batting practice to help hitters adjust. It shouldn't be the end all, be all of an in-game decision like it's some holy grail. Pitch clocks aren't gonna help speed the game up when every manager is bringing in a new pitcher for every batter because "metrics say blah blah blah."
And don't get me wrong, I'm totally an advocate of "if you have the tools, use them" but there is a different between using them to maybe tweak your decisions and relying totally on them, like many managers seem to be doing these days.
Yeah, I get using them a scouting report (as I believe they are intended), but it shouldn't be your every decision maker. A computer spits out numbers, its up to us to figure out how to interpret those numbers and what to do with them. Control the metrics, don't let the metrics control you.
it goes way beyond scouting reports. There's spin rates, launch angles, rotations on a pitch. Not believing in giving up outs. They'd rather you strike out than bunt a guy over. So many things we're not thinking about. It's more than "this guy can't hit lefties".
All of that stuff can be used in batting practice to help hitters adjust. It shouldn't be the end all, be all of an in-game decision like it's some holy grail. Pitch clocks aren't gonna help speed the game up when every manager is bringing in a new pitcher for every batter because "metrics say blah blah blah."
that's just a small example. they do have numbers on what to do in certain situations. when to take a pitcher out even if he's dealing. giving players scheduled days off. what to do if this happens or that happens? That's why I don't give guys like Dave Roberts credit or blame because it's the analytics guys above him who are giving him the game plan. And they don't want the "manager" to deviate from that plan. Same with Boone with the Yankees.
You don't think ther are players in the HOF who may have played 15-18 years, but only had 7-10 HOF worthy seasons?
That Damon Stat was meant to be silly and to prove a point when you mentioned Biggio's runs scored.
Maybe Don Baylor & Ron Hunt should be in the HOF for all of the HBP they had in their careers>LOL
Not sure exactly how that Algebra WAR Stat works, but does it take in account for base running and defense? Well, Biggio's OPS+ is 112 and Belle's OPS+ is 144 (100 is average from what i was told as i don't fully understand that Algebra stat either>LOL>But i thought i throw it out ther)
Biggio won GG and had more stolen bases by far than Belle.
Belles OPS should be higher because he had more xtra base hits and is based on On Base and Slugging. I would expect that.
WAR is Wins Above Replacement. It's how valuable a player is to a team. It accounts into everything. It shows the players all around worth. It's not an end all be all stat but when you look at other all-time greats it makes you see who is who.
What else did Baylor do?
WTH is Ron Hunt?
SB?>"Yawn" Arlie Latham(yes i had to look him up) is 7th All time in stolen bases and is not in the HOF
WAR is not a concrete stat? Doesn't seem like it is to me.
Baylor mention was a joke because you bought up Biggio's HBP. Same as Ron Hunt who is in the top 10 All time for HBP and probably should be in the HOF>LOL
I'll ask again: You don't think a player who averaged for 12 seasons, .295 AVG. 40 HR & 130 RBI's is HOF worthy?
Answered in order:
I like the SB. I always have. It can be very exciting in a game. Guess you aren't a fan? And again just because that guy is 7th doesn't make him a HOFer. You are taking things way out of context for the sake of your argument.
You aren't sold on WAR, that's fine. Just research it a little bit. Report back. I did say it is NOT an end all be all but it is impressive.
Again you take a person that did only 1 thing in the stat column and want to lump them in with everyone else for the sake of your argument and that doesn't work. It's the body of work. A career.
No. One is because he didn't avg 40 hr. If he did he'd have finished w 480 hr not the 380 he actually has. So you read a stat wrong somewhere. He avg 31 a year. If he did have 480 that would be something completely different.
You have to have numbers to back up being let in to the HOF.
Look he was a beast but he isn't Hall worthy...
I like a stolen base if it means something for that game(getting into scoring position).
Don't think i said i wasn't sold on WAR. Think i said i wasn't sure how WAR Stat works and is not a concrete stat. Is WAR a judgement stat?
That mention of Don Baylor & Ron Hunt was a joke(even said so and with a LOL). And, not arguing. Just discussing.
I fucked up and forgot to post those numbers for Belle was based on a 162 game Average. Well, considering Belle was a full-time player for 10 full seasons brings that HR avg. to 38 HR/season. RBI's still close to 140. Still a career .295 Avg. Think those numbers back Belle up to be in the HOF?
"Sorry, there'll be no words of sympathy here for Albert Belle. He was a surly jerk before he got hurt and now he's a hurt surly jerk....He was no credit to the game. Belle's boorish behavior should be remembered by every member of the Baseball Writers' Associationwhen it comes time to consider him for the Hall of Fame."
And that's why he's not in the HOF(which is BS), because based on his numbers he's a HOFer. Steve Carlton & Jim Rice weren't all warm & fuzzy with reporters.
He doesn't have the numbers to be IN the HOF.
Hall worthy numbers?
Hits? 1700, nope. HR? 381, nope. Runs? 974, nope. SB? 88, nope. Vince Coleman had more his rookie year...
What stats does he have that places him in the HOF? It really is becoming the Hall pf Good with thinking like this.
For a batter you need to have 3000 or 500 as numbers. If not you'd better have a whole bunch of RBI's and Runs... All of which Mr.Belle did not.
So, Craig Biggio was better then Albert Belle? I loved Biggio, but he was a compiler. He's a prime example of when 3,000 hits in a career doesn't belong in then HOF. Biggio is a prime example of someone who belongs in the Hall Of Very Good. Albert Belle only played 12 years(which hurt his chances at compiling more stats), but in 10 of those years he was a dominant player. In his last season he had 23 HR's & 103 RBI's. Ask John Hart who was the most feared hitter on those Tribe teams and he'll tell you it was Albert Belle, and that's when the Tribe had Jim Thome, Manny Ramierez, etc.
Belle's Stats (He averaged, for his career, based on a 162 games .295 40 HR 130 RBI's) >Probably a few players in the HOF who do NOT have those averages?
G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO AVG. OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB
Trust me i'm no Albert Belle , or a Tribe fan, but he's a HOFer for me.
Biggio is a perfect example, thank you.
Biggio has the Modern Major League Record for HBP just 2 shy of the record.
Had 3000 hits.
Had 400+ SB's, 600 plus dbls, is 15th all time in runs. The other 14 above him are or will be in the HOF and the other 14 below him are or will be in the HOF.
He also won 4GG.
He belongs in.
Belle's career was cut short but does not belong in, sorry... Longevity maters in Baseball unless you're Sandy Koufax.
Yes, Biggio is a good example ...of a compiler. How many Stats did he lead during a season? HBP? Okay, i guess. He lead in Runs a couple of years, 2B's 3 years , & SB one year. No other stats of signifcance. Biggio's high in RBI's is 88(he averaged 67RBI/season). He wasn't a dominant player.
I gave you Belles stats, and yes his career was only 12 years, but he was dominant for 10 of those years. That equals a HOFer to me.
Agree with you here. If you were never one of the top 10 or so players in your league at any time in your career I don't think you belong in the Hall of Fame. Biggio was very good but at no point was he really considered one of the best players in his league. For Hall of Fame a few dominant years means more to me than a long career piling up stats.
Biggio was in the top 10 for MVP voting 3 times and an All-Star 7 times.
Again with thinking like that you'd have some killer players with short bursts.
Baseball is about stats. They all mean something, so if you hit one of those milestones you will be going to the HOF.
I also think Palmiero, Clemens, Bonds, McGwire and A-Rod should be in too.
Like Sandy Koufax. so yes killer bursts deserve consideration. Would you rather have 7 great seasons or 13 good ones? To me a burst of greatness is better than a longevity of good seasons.
Koufax is the ONLY player with that few good seasons to get in the HOF. He had 6 years?
Dimaggio only played 13 years but Belle isn't Dimaggio, not by a long shot.
The only other players that get in the HOF with insignificant numbers is by the Veterans Committee or whatever it is now. They vote in a bunch of players that should not get in like Ashburn and Irvin...
Good players but not great.
I think Belle was good but not HOF material...
If you don't look at just the numbers do you think Craig Biggio was a better player than Albert Belle, Don Mattingly, Will Clark, Ryan Howard? I don't
I do. Over time. Better fielder sans Mattingly. Better base stealer. Gritty player. The 4 you mentioned weren't gritty.
WHAAAAAAAAT?????? The Neuschler was the epitome of grit! he might not be HOFer, but don’t you dare question his “grit.”
If I had known then what I know now...
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
jeff kent? he burned a lot of bridges and I would guess he juiced....even though he mormonly denies it.....but his numbers probably surpass most other HOF second basemen. he’s back in the provo motherland.
If I had known then what I know now...
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
"Sorry, there'll be no words of sympathy here for Albert Belle. He was a surly jerk before he got hurt and now he's a hurt surly jerk....He was no credit to the game. Belle's boorish behavior should be remembered by every member of the Baseball Writers' Associationwhen it comes time to consider him for the Hall of Fame."
And that's why he's not in the HOF(which is BS), because based on his numbers he's a HOFer. Steve Carlton & Jim Rice weren't all warm & fuzzy with reporters.
He doesn't have the numbers to be IN the HOF.
Hall worthy numbers?
Hits? 1700, nope. HR? 381, nope. Runs? 974, nope. SB? 88, nope. Vince Coleman had more his rookie year...
What stats does he have that places him in the HOF? It really is becoming the Hall pf Good with thinking like this.
For a batter you need to have 3000 or 500 as numbers. If not you'd better have a whole bunch of RBI's and Runs... All of which Mr.Belle did not.
So, Craig Biggio was better then Albert Belle? I loved Biggio, but he was a compiler. He's a prime example of when 3,000 hits in a career doesn't belong in then HOF. Biggio is a prime example of someone who belongs in the Hall Of Very Good. Albert Belle only played 12 years(which hurt his chances at compiling more stats), but in 10 of those years he was a dominant player. In his last season he had 23 HR's & 103 RBI's. Ask John Hart who was the most feared hitter on those Tribe teams and he'll tell you it was Albert Belle, and that's when the Tribe had Jim Thome, Manny Ramierez, etc.
Belle's Stats (He averaged, for his career, based on a 162 games .295 40 HR 130 RBI's) >Probably a few players in the HOF who do NOT have those averages?
G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO AVG. OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB
Trust me i'm no Albert Belle , or a Tribe fan, but he's a HOFer for me.
Biggio is a perfect example, thank you.
Biggio has the Modern Major League Record for HBP just 2 shy of the record.
Had 3000 hits.
Had 400+ SB's, 600 plus dbls, is 15th all time in runs. The other 14 above him are or will be in the HOF and the other 14 below him are or will be in the HOF.
He also won 4GG.
He belongs in.
Belle's career was cut short but does not belong in, sorry... Longevity maters in Baseball unless you're Sandy Koufax.
Yes, Biggio is a good example ...of a compiler. How many Stats did he lead during a season? HBP? Okay, i guess. He lead in Runs a couple of years, 2B's 3 years , & SB one year. No other stats of signifcance. Biggio's high in RBI's is 88(he averaged 67RBI/season). He wasn't a dominant player.
I gave you Belles stats, and yes his career was only 12 years, but he was dominant for 10 of those years. That equals a HOFer to me.
Agree with you here. If you were never one of the top 10 or so players in your league at any time in your career I don't think you belong in the Hall of Fame. Biggio was very good but at no point was he really considered one of the best players in his league. For Hall of Fame a few dominant years means more to me than a long career piling up stats.
Biggio was in the top 10 for MVP voting 3 times and an All-Star 7 times.
Again with thinking like that you'd have some killer players with short bursts.
Baseball is about stats. They all mean something, so if you hit one of those milestones you will be going to the HOF.
I also think Palmiero, Clemens, Bonds, McGwire and A-Rod should be in too.
Like Sandy Koufax. so yes killer bursts deserve consideration. Would you rather have 7 great seasons or 13 good ones? To me a burst of greatness is better than a longevity of good seasons.
Koufax is the ONLY player with that few good seasons to get in the HOF. He had 6 years?
Dimaggio only played 13 years but Belle isn't Dimaggio, not by a long shot.
The only other players that get in the HOF with insignificant numbers is by the Veterans Committee or whatever it is now. They vote in a bunch of players that should not get in like Ashburn and Irvin...
Good players but not great.
I think Belle was good but not HOF material...
If you don't look at just the numbers do you think Craig Biggio was a better player than Albert Belle, Don Mattingly, Will Clark, Ryan Howard? I don't
I do. Over time. Better fielder sans Mattingly. Better base stealer. Gritty player. The 4 you mentioned weren't gritty.
WHAAAAAAAAT?????? The Neuschler was the epitome of grit! he might not be HOFer, but don’t you dare question his “grit.”
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
Haha the best you got is “I know you are but what am i?”
OK, I just read it. no excuse to stand up for john rocker.
that said, Will would have bitch slapped a-rod (like varitek did, in a different incident) if pretty boy alex had ever tried to slap a ball out of HIS glove.
If I had known then what I know now...
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
Comments
I will say this about Bonds and Arod, they were the best two players I have ever seen swing a bat with my own two eyes. Pujols is third on that list with Thomas 4th.
You could make an argument of connecting the dots or which one of these is not like the other but I still put Pujols third. He was doing what Frank Thomas, Bonds and Arod, did year after year. 100r, 100rbi, 30hr, 300avg and 100w. Crazy output.
You put these 4 players and look at their first 10-12 years and it's unbelievable. Just to think that Trout is still off the mark is just amazing because he is a beast.
http://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/seasontype/2/sort/OPS
Edit: Damn, apparently he didn't qualify.
Metrics baby!
MAGA
Metrics Are Great Again!!!
You'd think that they could adjust the lineup a little? Is Pujols too slow to put in front of Trout, is that the reasoning?
Don't think i said i wasn't sold on WAR. Think i said i wasn't sure how WAR Stat works and is not a concrete stat. Is WAR a judgement stat?
That mention of Don Baylor & Ron Hunt was a joke(even said so and with a LOL). And, not arguing. Just discussing.
I fucked up and forgot to post those numbers for Belle was based on a 162 game Average. Well, considering Belle was a full-time player for 10 full seasons brings that HR avg. to 38 HR/season. RBI's still close to 140. Still a career .295 Avg. Think those numbers back Belle up to be in the HOF?
WHAAAAAAAAT??????
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
OK, I just read it. no excuse to stand up for john rocker.
that said, Will would have bitch slapped a-rod (like varitek did, in a different incident) if pretty boy alex had ever tried to slap a ball out of HIS glove.
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14