i see what you are saying monster, but then when is getting a cadaver tendon put into your ankle so you can pitch exactly good for you? what about TJ surgery, or ACL repairs (I had mine done, then found out that most people who get the procedure develop arthritis), cortisone shots or stronger, headache medicine, hell prescription painkillers (a huge problem at my school), and all of that other shit people put in their bodies so they can play? if we are going to ban steroids for safety reasons (which is fair) then we gotta ban all the other shit too. when we pull that apart, that's when the cold war shit pops up, because we don't truly care about athlete safety - if we did none of the aforementioned would exist.
Nonsense, there is a huge difference between getting tommy john surgery and whatever the fuck schilling had done and taking a shot to gain 30 pounds of muscle mass in 3 months that makes you go limp and fucks with your mind.
then let's just start with prescription painkillers, and cortisone shots that allow you to play when the natural human body would not be able to.
Cortisone shots and painkillers are being used legally, being administered by licensed professionals, and don't have the same consequences. A baseball player doesn't take the field after taking a percocet, so any use of something that strong wouldn't be used to get a guy on the field. A cortisone shot is used when a guy has some pain but isn't putting his health in danger by playing. You won't see a guy with a ligament in his knee barely staying together playing after a cortisone injection. That guy's getting surgery and recovering before he plays again. If you apply your argument logically, then no prescription painkiller whould be legal at all in any situation. It's not any less of a risk for me to take them then a linebacker in the NFL. I can become addicted just as easily. Also, if a player is found to be using an illegal prescription he can be disciplined under MLB rules. The penalty isn't as harsh as it is for PEDs but there are rules governing drug use in general.
Cortisone shots and painkillers are being used legally, being administered by licensed professionals, and don't have the same consequences. A baseball player doesn't take the field after taking a percocet, so any use of something that strong wouldn't be used to get a guy on the field. A cortisone shot is used when a guy has some pain but isn't putting his health in danger by playing. You won't see a guy with a ligament in his knee barely staying together playing after a cortisone injection. That guy's getting surgery and recovering before he plays again. If you apply your argument logically, then no prescription painkiller whould be legal at all in any situation. It's not any less of a risk for me to take them then a linebacker in the NFL. I can become addicted just as easily. Also, if a player is found to be using an illegal prescription he can be disciplined under MLB rules. The penalty isn't as harsh as it is for PEDs but there are rules governing drug use in general.
I diasgree with this. Painkillers are certainly not being use legally in professional sports and again, I point to that article about the Rangers player. And I have read in a number of places that Ryan Howards achilles would probably not have torn if it were not for the cortisone shot he took before the playoffs.
I do think there is a pain killer problem in sports, as there is in America in general right now. I think those are more on the level of steroids than the medical procedures that were mentioned before.
So to summarize we have four ways of thinking go on here:
1. Steroids are illegal and shouldn't be used. However, so is the rampant use of painkillers, and if you think you can't play on PKs you're crazy.
2. Steroids give an unfair advantage. So do other things so why do we care about steroids? Going back to PK's should Brett Favre's games streak have an * because he was caught abusing PKs so he could play?
3. Steroids are bad for future health. Again no studies have shown this but let's say that's true then what do we care about athletes?
4. Fine steroids don't really matter that much, but when is it ok to use steroids? Can't the same be said about extreme workout regimes for kids, or giving kids TJohn surgery so they become better pro prospects, etc.
So if there are comparable and equally egregious moral and ethical issues not involving steroids then what is the core of our hatred for steroids? Blame the Russians!
As for the question about ACL yes I would have been able to walk and likely could have done most everything had I not had the operation (I think Hines Ward has no ACLs not sure if that's true or not just heard it), and I would not be looking at a future with arthritis in my knee that I will likely be now. I mean is Payton Manning's life going to be better or worse after a 3rd neck surgery so that he can play football?
I don't understand what you are getting at, no one here ever said they hate steroids, most said quite the opposite. I just don't think they should be part of the game.
I was summarizing the 4 main opinions 2 are generally against steroids (not numbers of people on the board of course) and 2 that don't hate them but don't want them in baseball (as you pointed out more people feel that way). i used to think like you cliffy until i started to follow the bonds story and break down why i didn't like steroids, and every time i did the logic i used was always severely flawed. i think we've outlined those flaws all day, yet some people hold on to the belief in the face of logic for various reasons (nostalgia for some sort of "all natural" past, belief in the war on drugs, and so on).
further i find it funny that people causally attribute ill-health conditions to things like steroids. for example Palmeiro can't get it up so it "must be the steroids" (n/m that not getting it up can happen to anyone steroids or not), Bonds head grew (even though his hat size always remained the same) so it "must be the steroids", WWE Wrestlers die (even though they jump off shit into other ridiculously huge bodies 230 days a year) so it "must be the steroids", NFL Players die at about the same rate so it "must be the constant physical abuse that these players go through because they don't use steroids". it's like the fake war on obesity that suggests that fat people are causally unhealthy simply because they are fat even though a critical reading of the peer reviewed research on obesity would show that this causal connection is spurious at best. human bodies and conditions that shape them are far more complex than simple causal relationships.
Bonds' hat size was not always the same. It was a pretty widely-reported aspect of his perjury trial that the Giants' clubhouse attendant needed to get him a bigger hat in 2002. He went from a size 7-1/4 to a size 7-3/8 even though he started shaving his head. His feet also got bigger and his girfriend during his steroids-using time testified that his testicles shriveled and he had trouble performing in bed. Yes, impotency can and does occur in cases that don't involve steroids, but when you have 2 MLB players using steroids and also having that issue, the link isnt' exactly far-fetched.
As for wrestlers, the example I cited wasn't some run-of-the-mill death. The guy had been using steroids (the Albany, NY DA's Office stated that he had purchased steroids and HGH online from a company in Florida) nad had a history of domestic voilence. "Roid Rage isn't a myth, so it's hard to deny that steroids played a role in that incident.
As for other wrestler deaths and NFL players dying at "about the same rate" you are totally wrong. Here's a brief list of wrestlers who have died over the past 10-15 years. Check out their ages and then try to find a comparable list of NFL players dying that young.
Lance Cade - 29 (heart failure)
Test - 33
Brian Pillman - 35 (heart attack)
The Wall - 35 (heart attack)
Umaga - 36 (heart attack)
Eddie Guerrero - 38 (heart attack)
Kronus - 38 (heart failure)
Davey Boy Smith - 39 (heart attack, autospsy specifically mentioned steroids' possible role)
Rick Rude - 40 (heart failure)
Big Boss Man - 42 (heart attack)
Brian Adams (Crush) - 43 (unknown causes, had received shipment of steroids prior to death)
Curt Hennig (Mr. Perfect) - 44
That list only has people I think most wrestling fans would know. Pretty much everyone on that list had used steroids. All but 2 or 3 of them died of heart troubles (and those 2 were known to use steroids and Curt Hennig's father blamed steroids for contributing to his death). Is there a similar number of NFL players dying between the ages of 29-44 from anything, let alone heart issues? If there is, it's news to me. Since the NFL tests for steroids, the use of any type of steroids is much less than it is in professional wrestling. The WWE tests for it now, but only after the Chris Benoit incident attracted so much negative attention for the company. All of the people listed above wrestled before the WWE tested its performers (and not all of them were WWE performers, anyway).
I was summarizing the 4 main opinions 2 are generally against steroids (not numbers of people on the board of course) and 2 that don't hate them but don't want them in baseball (as you pointed out more people feel that way). i used to think like you cliffy until i started to follow the bonds story and break down why i didn't like steroids, and every time i did the logic i used was always severely flawed. i think we've outlined those flaws all day, yet some people hold on to the belief in the face of logic for various reasons (nostalgia for some sort of "all natural" past, belief in the war on drugs, and so on).
further i find it funny that people causally attribute ill-health conditions to things like steroids. for example Palmeiro can't get it up so it "must be the steroids" (n/m that not getting it up can happen to anyone steroids or not), Bonds head grew (even though his hat size always remained the same) so it "must be the steroids", WWE Wrestlers die (even though they jump off shit into other ridiculously huge bodies 230 days a year) so it "must be the steroids", NFL Players die at about the same rate so it "must be the constant physical abuse that these players go through because they don't use steroids". it's like the fake war on obesity that suggests that fat people are causally unhealthy simply because they are fat even though a critical reading of the peer reviewed research on obesity would show that this causal connection is spurious at best. human bodies and conditions that shape them are far more complex than simple causal relationships.
Kids Of Milwaukee Forced To Look Up To Ryan Braun On Technicality
MILWAUKEE—Despite ample evidence pointing to elevated levels of testosterone in Ryan Braun's urine, the mishandling of the Brewers slugger's sample means the region's young baseball players will once again have to look up to him, arbitrator Shyam Das ordered Thursday. "If you are a Wisconsin youngster and Ryan Braun has been your favorite player, you are still required to want to be just like him when you grow up," said Das, ordering area 12-year-olds and Little Leaguers to reattach previously discarded Ryan Braun posters to all affected bedroom doors. "Major League Baseball officially believes Ryan Braun when he says if you work really hard and don't corners, you'll be successful like him, and you are now required to resume believing that, too." Following the decision, Brewers Kids Club members had petitioned Das to allow them to start looking up to outfielder Corey Hart instead, but the arbitrator ruled that since the departure of free agent Prince Fielder, Braun is the only logical player for them to idolize.
Bonds' hat size was not always the same. It was a pretty widely-reported aspect of his perjury trial that the Giants' clubhouse attendant needed to get him a bigger hat in 2002. He went from a size 7-1/4 to a size 7-3/8 even though he started shaving his head. His feet also got bigger and his girfriend during his steroids-using time testified that his testicles shriveled and he had trouble performing in bed. Yes, impotency can and does occur in cases that don't involve steroids, but when you have 2 MLB players using steroids and also having that issue, the link isnt' exactly far-fetched.
As for wrestlers, the example I cited wasn't some run-of-the-mill death. The guy had been using steroids (the Albany, NY DA's Office stated that he had purchased steroids and HGH online from a company in Florida) nad had a history of domestic voilence. "Roid Rage isn't a myth, so it's hard to deny that steroids played a role in that incident.
As for other wrestler deaths and NFL players dying at "about the same rate" you are totally wrong. Here's a brief list of wrestlers who have died over the past 10-15 years. Check out their ages and then try to find a comparable list of NFL players dying that young.
Lance Cade - 29 (heart failure)
Test - 33
Brian Pillman - 35 (heart attack)
The Wall - 35 (heart attack)
Umaga - 36 (heart attack)
Eddie Guerrero - 38 (heart attack)
Kronus - 38 (heart failure)
Davey Boy Smith - 39 (heart attack, autospsy specifically mentioned steroids' possible role)
Rick Rude - 40 (heart failure)
Big Boss Man - 42 (heart attack)
Brian Adams (Crush) - 43 (unknown causes, had received shipment of steroids prior to death)
Curt Hennig (Mr. Perfect) - 44
That list only has people I think most wrestling fans would know. Pretty much everyone on that list had used steroids. All but 2 or 3 of them died of heart troubles (and those 2 were known to use steroids and Curt Hennig's father blamed steroids for contributing to his death). Is there a similar number of NFL players dying between the ages of 29-44 from anything, let alone heart issues? If there is, it's news to me. Since the NFL tests for steroids, the use of any type of steroids is much less than it is in professional wrestling. The WWE tests for it now, but only after the Chris Benoit incident attracted so much negative attention for the company. All of the people listed above wrestled before the WWE tested its performers (and not all of them were WWE performers, anyway).
I was summarizing the 4 main opinions 2 are generally against steroids (not numbers of people on the board of course) and 2 that don't hate them but don't want them in baseball (as you pointed out more people feel that way). i used to think like you cliffy until i started to follow the bonds story and break down why i didn't like steroids, and every time i did the logic i used was always severely flawed. i think we've outlined those flaws all day, yet some people hold on to the belief in the face of logic for various reasons (nostalgia for some sort of "all natural" past, belief in the war on drugs, and so on).
further i find it funny that people causally attribute ill-health conditions to things like steroids. for example Palmeiro can't get it up so it "must be the steroids" (n/m that not getting it up can happen to anyone steroids or not), Bonds head grew (even though his hat size always remained the same) so it "must be the steroids", WWE Wrestlers die (even though they jump off shit into other ridiculously huge bodies 230 days a year) so it "must be the steroids", NFL Players die at about the same rate so it "must be the constant physical abuse that these players go through because they don't use steroids". it's like the fake war on obesity that suggests that fat people are causally unhealthy simply because they are fat even though a critical reading of the peer reviewed research on obesity would show that this causal connection is spurious at best. human bodies and conditions that shape them are far more complex than simple causal relationships.
i thought the hat size thing was a mythology...guess i could be wrong. NFL players and ex-footballers in general live approximately 20-30 years less than the average male (usually dying between 45-55). Those that live longer often suffer with disfigured body parts, or useless limbs, and are essentially left to die (see: Dave Duerson, Fridge Perry, Jim McMahon, and many, many more). These things have developed outside of the dangers of steroids (however true or untrue the dangers are), and, thus brings me back to the question why are we singling out steroids? IF we have already demonstrated that we could give two shits about athletes after their playing days are complete, THEN why are steroids deemed more unnatural, or cheating, etc. than other equally illegal uses of drugs? It's quite simple, since there was already a cultural hatred of steroids stemming from the cold war, a war on steroids makes for great PR. Because if we actually cared about our athletes I'd suggest that just about 0 of them should be on the NBA court right at this moment, that we'd need 200 man rosters for the NFL, 100+ for MLB, and so on.
so fucking what if his head grew (I know you don't care RW). I'm guessing Bonds' health will be OK, long term. He did what he did, made a lot of dough, took the Giants to a world series, and really should be in the HOF. In fact, the HOF is a joke without him....but the high and mighty sportswriters will keep him out (the same sportswriters who, as someone said, were all over the mcgwire/sosa race even when they had to have known "something was up")
If I had known then what I know now...
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
I know other players have needed bigger hats as they've aged, but that's more to do with them gaining weight as they get older. Bonds' hat size got bigger despite the fact that he started shaving his head and was in good enough shape to hit 73 HRs.
Murphy also testified that the hat size of two other Giants greats, Willie Mays and Willie McCovey, had also changed, but after they had gained weight while in retirement.
Also note the threats of violence he made towards his girlfriend at the time, which she testified about in his trial and is mentioned in the article above. This is common among steroid users. Do you really think that it's not relevent to the discussion about whether they should be legal or not?
As for his son's claims, I don't buy it for a second. That article you linked to shows a picture of the 2 of them together from 2007 and his son's head is clearly not bigger than Barry's--and that picture was taken 5 years later than the time frame being discussed. His son was about 12 or 13 at the time Bonds needed a bigger hat. Also, I doubt that the team's equipment manager would confuse the hat of a player with that of a bat boy. They actually have to measure the players' heads to find out what size hat they need, so where is the confusion between a bald guy in his late-30s and a teenager.
Athletes are cared for better now than they were in the past--both during and after their careers. Players' unions have negotiated better pensions, health coverage, etc. and there are now stricter rules in place regarding concussions (sometimes in spite of the player's wishes). Equipment has been improved to protect players better (compare an NFL player's pads today with the pads from decades ago), and rules have been changed to protect players in sports like football and hockey. If nothing else, the various professional sports leagues have a strong financial interest in keeping players healthy because of the ever-increasing national and international marketability of the biggest stars.
Steroids are deemed more unnatural because injuires suffered during a career might leave a player with a limp, arthritis, a bad back, etc. when they finish playing, but do any of those things cause a person to have fits of rage that make them aggressive an doften violent towards other people? No, they don't, but steroids do. Do any of those things cause someone to have a heart attack at 35? Nope, but steroids can. Yes, physical sports take a physical toll on an athlete's body but not to the extent that steroids do and those aches, pains, surgeries, etc. don't cause death in your 30s.
i thought the hat size thing was a mythology...guess i could be wrong. NFL players and ex-footballers in general live approximately 20-30 years less than the average male (usually dying between 45-55). Those that live longer often suffer with disfigured body parts, or useless limbs, and are essentially left to die (see: Dave Duerson, Fridge Perry, Jim McMahon, and many, many more). These things have developed outside of the dangers of steroids (however true or untrue the dangers are), and, thus brings me back to the question why are we singling out steroids? IF we have already demonstrated that we could give two shits about athletes after their playing days are complete, THEN why are steroids deemed more unnatural, or cheating, etc. than other equally illegal uses of drugs? It's quite simple, since there was already a cultural hatred of steroids stemming from the cold war, a war on steroids makes for great PR. Because if we actually cared about our athletes I'd suggest that just about 0 of them should be on the NBA court right at this moment, that we'd need 200 man rosters for the NFL, 100+ for MLB, and so on.
Also note the threats of violence he made towards his girlfriend at the time, which she testified about in his trial and is mentioned in the article above. This is common among steroid users. Do you really think that it's not relevent to the discussion about whether they should be legal or not?
bonds was an asshole before he took steroids, while he took steroids and, probably, after he quit steroids. It's not all that relevant. hell, a lot of people turn into assholes when they drink alcohol. besides, kimberly bell is not exactly an unimpeachable witness.
If I had known then what I know now...
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
Also note the threats of violence he made towards his girlfriend at the time, which she testified about in his trial and is mentioned in the article above. This is common among steroid users. Do you really think that it's not relevent to the discussion about whether they should be legal or not?
bonds was an asshole before he took steroids, while he took steroids and, probably, after he quit steroids. It's not all that relevant. hell, a lot of people turn into assholes when they drink alcohol. besides, kimberly bell is not exactly an unimpeachable witness.
And the Benoit case? What about the people Cliffy witnessed? And what about the fact that Bonds didn't treat her that way before taking steroids? You might think she's lying in order to sell books, but the DA that traced steroid shipments to Benoit isn't selling anything and neither is Cliffy. Roid Rage is not something people are making up. Bonds' reputation for being an ass doesn't negate every other instance of Roid Rage seen in other people.
I wish Bonds was clean. I was a fan of his despite his personality because I know sometimes the media can twist a player not liking the press and spin it as "_______ is a jerk." The guy was great when he was clean. I just wish he'd stayed that way because he was headed for the Hall. It's a shame.
Athletes are cared for better now than they were in the past--both during and after their careers. Players' unions have negotiated better pensions, health coverage, etc. and there are now stricter rules in place regarding concussions (sometimes in spite of the player's wishes). Equipment has been improved to protect players better (compare an NFL player's pads today with the pads from decades ago), and rules have been changed to protect players in sports like football and hockey. If nothing else, the various professional sports leagues have a strong financial interest in keeping players healthy because of the ever-increasing national and international marketability of the biggest stars.
Steroids are deemed more unnatural because injuires suffered during a career might leave a player with a limp, arthritis, a bad back, etc. when they finish playing, but do any of those things cause a person to have fits of rage that make them aggressive an doften violent towards other people? No, they don't, but steroids do. Do any of those things cause someone to have a heart attack at 35? Nope, but steroids can. Yes, physical sports take a physical toll on an athlete's body but not to the extent that steroids do and those aches, pains, surgeries, etc. don't cause death in your 30s.
i thought the hat size thing was a mythology...guess i could be wrong. NFL players and ex-footballers in general live approximately 20-30 years less than the average male (usually dying between 45-55). Those that live longer often suffer with disfigured body parts, or useless limbs, and are essentially left to die (see: Dave Duerson, Fridge Perry, Jim McMahon, and many, many more). These things have developed outside of the dangers of steroids (however true or untrue the dangers are), and, thus brings me back to the question why are we singling out steroids? IF we have already demonstrated that we could give two shits about athletes after their playing days are complete, THEN why are steroids deemed more unnatural, or cheating, etc. than other equally illegal uses of drugs? It's quite simple, since there was already a cultural hatred of steroids stemming from the cold war, a war on steroids makes for great PR. Because if we actually cared about our athletes I'd suggest that just about 0 of them should be on the NBA court right at this moment, that we'd need 200 man rosters for the NFL, 100+ for MLB, and so on.
that's so questionable on so many fronts. i mean look at all the athletes in their late 20s and 30s suing the NFL for post-concussion effects, that shit jacks you up. Look at Chris Henry who presumably wasn't on steroids but had something like 80 concussions in his brain that led him to being crazy and dying too young. what peer reviewed research on steroids do you have that says the things you are claiming? you may have a correllation there but what research evidence do you have to back it up outside of something bob ley, buster olney, or howard bryant has told us? additionally, you are admitting your contradiction right there. you are fine with debilitating aches and pains and diminishing quality of life if it's done within what you think is "fair", but not fine with it if you think it is "unfair". how do you make sense of this? additionally if you are right about steroids couldn't one argue that killing people quicker when they have fame and money is far more humane than letting them get dementia and hobble around drunk and penniless for 10 more years? at what point do you just admit that you just want to be entertained by these guys and you don't care how it's done? how many athletes do you think "i wonder what their personal life is like" during and after their careers (maybe a few of your favorites or some outstanding crazies), but, even then, it's just a blip and you forget? do you work for a charity to help past athletes get back on their feet? do you personally treat them? if not why pretend to care?
For the 2012 Postseason only, the five-game Division Series will begin with two home games for lower seeds, followed by up to three home games for higher seeds. This one-year change will eliminate a travel day prior to a decisive Game Five of the Division Series and was necessary because the 2012 regular season schedule was announced before the agreement on the new Postseason was reached. Next year, the Division Series will return to the 2-2-1 format used in previous years.
WTF that's just stupid...so the Phils would have had to go to StL. for 2 to face Jaime G. who is only good at home before returning home last year...ughhh.
For the 2012 Postseason only, the five-game Division Series will begin with two home games for lower seeds, followed by up to three home games for higher seeds. This one-year change will eliminate a travel day prior to a decisive Game Five of the Division Series and was necessary because the 2012 regular season schedule was announced before the agreement on the new Postseason was reached. Next year, the Division Series will return to the 2-2-1 format used in previous years.
:roll:
happened to the giants in 1997 when they lost 0-3 to the marlins. don't know when it changed after that. I remember thinking it was pretty jacked up at the time. I drove up for Game 3.....man, did I get drunk at that game.
If I had known then what I know now...
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
he's a WWF wrestler, right? steroid use in MLB doesn't correlate to that shit. those guys are built like professional body builders.
I've got a ton of respect for your opinion, monster rain, but I'm done (at least for now ).
If I had known then what I know now...
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
There are rules in place that dictate how teams handle players suffering from concussions and how soon the player is allowed back on the field. That right there is a step in the right direction. There are rules in the NFL and NHL that cover hitting a defenseless opponent, what types of hits are illegal (helmet-to-helmet hits, late hits, etc.), and better equipment (improved helmets, for example). All of that is in place to protect players. Also, if athletes take steroids to get stronger and faster, then they are putting their opponents at a greater risk of injury by taking them because a stronger guy running faster will hit his opponent with a greater impact. That's basic physics. Harder hits increase the chances of injuries, so allowing steroids is allowing more injuries than would otherwise occur. Even if you don't think the changes to rules in sports are really protecting players, that doens't mean it's ok to increase the risk of injury by allowing steroids.
As for Roid Rage and other side effects, I'm not sure what you doubt. It exists. There are posters in this thread who have specifically mentioned witnessing the rage themselves. Even if you truly believe that the government is lying about steroids simply because Germany and China won some medals, what reason do you have for not believing people who have witnessed the effects in people they know?
Sorry, I don't work for a charity to help millionaires deal with retirement. I need a job that pays so I can continue having a home. That doesn't mean I want them ruining their livers, growing breasts, damaging their hearts, or having fits of unprovoked rage. I also don't want them injuring other players or making kids think the best way to make millions of dollars playing sports is by taking dangerous drugs and I certainly don't want to see them die young just because they might have some pain later.
Athletes are cared for better now than they were in the past--both during and after their careers. Players' unions have negotiated better pensions, health coverage, etc. and there are now stricter rules in place regarding concussions (sometimes in spite of the player's wishes). Equipment has been improved to protect players better (compare an NFL player's pads today with the pads from decades ago), and rules have been changed to protect players in sports like football and hockey. If nothing else, the various professional sports leagues have a strong financial interest in keeping players healthy because of the ever-increasing national and international marketability of the biggest stars.
Steroids are deemed more unnatural because injuires suffered during a career might leave a player with a limp, arthritis, a bad back, etc. when they finish playing, but do any of those things cause a person to have fits of rage that make them aggressive an doften violent towards other people? No, they don't, but steroids do. Do any of those things cause someone to have a heart attack at 35? Nope, but steroids can. Yes, physical sports take a physical toll on an athlete's body but not to the extent that steroids do and those aches, pains, surgeries, etc. don't cause death in your 30s.
i thought the hat size thing was a mythology...guess i could be wrong. NFL players and ex-footballers in general live approximately 20-30 years less than the average male (usually dying between 45-55). Those that live longer often suffer with disfigured body parts, or useless limbs, and are essentially left to die (see: Dave Duerson, Fridge Perry, Jim McMahon, and many, many more). These things have developed outside of the dangers of steroids (however true or untrue the dangers are), and, thus brings me back to the question why are we singling out steroids? IF we have already demonstrated that we could give two shits about athletes after their playing days are complete, THEN why are steroids deemed more unnatural, or cheating, etc. than other equally illegal uses of drugs? It's quite simple, since there was already a cultural hatred of steroids stemming from the cold war, a war on steroids makes for great PR. Because if we actually cared about our athletes I'd suggest that just about 0 of them should be on the NBA court right at this moment, that we'd need 200 man rosters for the NFL, 100+ for MLB, and so on.
that's so questionable on so many fronts. i mean look at all the athletes in their late 20s and 30s suing the NFL for post-concussion effects, that shit jacks you up. Look at Chris Henry who presumably wasn't on steroids but had something like 80 concussions in his brain that led him to being crazy and dying too young. what peer reviewed research on steroids do you have that says the things you are claiming? you may have a correllation there but what research evidence do you have to back it up outside of something bob ley, buster olney, or howard bryant has told us? additionally, you are admitting your contradiction right there. you are fine with debilitating aches and pains and diminishing quality of life if it's done within what you think is "fair", but not fine with it if you think it is "unfair". how do you make sense of this? additionally if you are right about steroids couldn't one argue that killing people quicker when they have fame and money is far more humane than letting them get dementia and hobble around drunk and penniless for 10 more years? at what point do you just admit that you just want to be entertained by these guys and you don't care how it's done? how many athletes do you think "i wonder what their personal life is like" during and after their careers (maybe a few of your favorites or some outstanding crazies), but, even then, it's just a blip and you forget? do you work for a charity to help past athletes get back on their feet? do you personally treat them? if not why pretend to care?
Ladies and Gentleman Your 2009 Super Bowl Champs putting bounties out for big hits. The commish is PISSED b/c his PR campaign about player safety has been exposed. And no one cares...
A fan of the change. Not a fan of rushing it for this year so the LDS format goes 2-3 for 2012.
I hope at some point the LDS goes to 7 game and we'll be perfect.
yeah i'm on the fence with this move. I understand why they did it, but think it could have waited.
8/28/98- Camden, NJ
10/31/09- Philly
5/21/10- NYC
9/2/12- Philly, PA
7/19/13- Wrigley
10/19/13- Brooklyn, NY
10/21/13- Philly, PA
10/22/13- Philly, PA
10/27/13- Baltimore, MD
4/28/16- Philly, PA
4/29/16- Philly, PA
5/1/16- NYC
5/2/16- NYC
9/2/18- Boston, MA
9/4/18- Boston, MA
9/14/22- Camden, NJ
9/7/24- Philly, PA
9/9/24- Philly, PA
Tres Mts.- 3/23/11- Philly. PA
Eddie Vedder- 6/25/11- Philly, PA
RNDM- 3/9/16- Philly, PA
A fan of the change. Not a fan of rushing it for this year so the LDS format goes 2-3 for 2012.
I hope at some point the LDS goes to 7 game and we'll be perfect.
They only rushed it because Selig told them he had to have it this year despite the regular season and postseason schedules having already been set. He's said as much in a few interviews over the last 2-3 months. What's stupid about rushing it is the fact that they couldn't have it this year without going to the old 2-3 format instead of the 2-2-1 format they've been using. The whole reason they changed to the 2-2-1 format was because they realized that the 2-3 format gave the lower seeded team an advantage by giving them 2 home games to start the series, meaning they could conceivably go into the higher-seeded team's stadium up 2-0. So now they've added an extra Wild Card team in an effort to make winning the division seem more important and awkwardly rushed it for this season by changing the LDS format to one that may actually favor the Wild Card team. But at least the league will have that extra game to get a little more money. Brilliant.
A fan of the change. Not a fan of rushing it for this year so the LDS format goes 2-3 for 2012.
I hope at some point the LDS goes to 7 game and we'll be perfect.
They only rushed it because Selig told them he had to have it this year despite the regular season and postseason schedules having already been set. He's said as much in a few interviews over the last 2-3 months. What's stupid about rushing it is the fact that they couldn't have it this year without going to the old 2-3 format instead of the 2-2-1 format they've been using. The whole reason they changed to the 2-2-1 format was because they realized that the 2-3 format gave the lower seeded team an advantage by giving them 2 home games to start the series, meaning they could conceivably go into the higher-seeded team's stadium up 2-0. So now they've added an extra Wild Card team in an effort to make winning the division seem more important and awkwardly rushed it for this season by changing the LDS format to one that may actually favor the Wild Card team. But at least the league will have that extra game to get a little more money. Brilliant.
bud selig is a fucking moron. i know some people defend him here. but rushing this new format at the expense of home field advantage for the team that actually wins their division is absolutely ridiculous. he's accomplished the exact opposite of what he set out to do. doesn't matter that it's only for one year either. some teams/cities only get lucky once every century it seems. now they could get screwed over by this traveling mistake.
what's next? making something as trivial as an all star game decide homefield advantage in the world series? ....wait. now wait just a minute here...
between the weird thing in the outfield and an actual fish tank behind home plate, this place is going to be... pretty weird looking to say the least :? :
Why is this in bud selig? Everyone involved agreed with the format, the players union, the commissioners office and the teams
I blame Bud for it because he's the one who has been pulbicly saying things like this back in January:
Selig says that a committee formed to work out details of expanding the playoffs from eight teams to 10 is dealing with scheduling issues. Addition of a second wild card in each league would add a one-game play-in between teams with the two best records in each league that are not division winners. Selig says that would mean condensing the overall playoff schedule.
Selig says the committee knows he is an ardent supporter of the concept. Under the new collective bargaining agreement, MLB and the players' union must agree by March 1 whether to add the new round for 2012.
"We're working on dates right now. That'll all take place. It looks to me like we'll have it because I've told everybody we have to have it. It'll be exciting. One-game playoff, it will start the playoffs in a very exciting manner."
The man's a walking contradiction. In one breath he says the clubs all want it this year and in the next he says that he told everbody it has to happen this year. He says he wants to make winning the division mean something and then pushes for a format this year that could give the #5 seed an advantage because they get the first 2 games at home rather than wait a year and let the idea prgress naturally. No matter how good the #1 seed is, if they're down 2-0 in a 5-game series they have the odds stacked against them. It's the whole reason why they stopped using that format after 3 seasons.
Comments
Cortisone shots and painkillers are being used legally, being administered by licensed professionals, and don't have the same consequences. A baseball player doesn't take the field after taking a percocet, so any use of something that strong wouldn't be used to get a guy on the field. A cortisone shot is used when a guy has some pain but isn't putting his health in danger by playing. You won't see a guy with a ligament in his knee barely staying together playing after a cortisone injection. That guy's getting surgery and recovering before he plays again. If you apply your argument logically, then no prescription painkiller whould be legal at all in any situation. It's not any less of a risk for me to take them then a linebacker in the NFL. I can become addicted just as easily. Also, if a player is found to be using an illegal prescription he can be disciplined under MLB rules. The penalty isn't as harsh as it is for PEDs but there are rules governing drug use in general.
I diasgree with this. Painkillers are certainly not being use legally in professional sports and again, I point to that article about the Rangers player. And I have read in a number of places that Ryan Howards achilles would probably not have torn if it were not for the cortisone shot he took before the playoffs.
I do think there is a pain killer problem in sports, as there is in America in general right now. I think those are more on the level of steroids than the medical procedures that were mentioned before.
1. Steroids are illegal and shouldn't be used. However, so is the rampant use of painkillers, and if you think you can't play on PKs you're crazy.
2. Steroids give an unfair advantage. So do other things so why do we care about steroids? Going back to PK's should Brett Favre's games streak have an * because he was caught abusing PKs so he could play?
3. Steroids are bad for future health. Again no studies have shown this but let's say that's true then what do we care about athletes?
4. Fine steroids don't really matter that much, but when is it ok to use steroids? Can't the same be said about extreme workout regimes for kids, or giving kids TJohn surgery so they become better pro prospects, etc.
So if there are comparable and equally egregious moral and ethical issues not involving steroids then what is the core of our hatred for steroids? Blame the Russians!
As for the question about ACL yes I would have been able to walk and likely could have done most everything had I not had the operation (I think Hines Ward has no ACLs not sure if that's true or not just heard it), and I would not be looking at a future with arthritis in my knee that I will likely be now. I mean is Payton Manning's life going to be better or worse after a 3rd neck surgery so that he can play football?
further i find it funny that people causally attribute ill-health conditions to things like steroids. for example Palmeiro can't get it up so it "must be the steroids" (n/m that not getting it up can happen to anyone steroids or not), Bonds head grew (even though his hat size always remained the same) so it "must be the steroids", WWE Wrestlers die (even though they jump off shit into other ridiculously huge bodies 230 days a year) so it "must be the steroids", NFL Players die at about the same rate so it "must be the constant physical abuse that these players go through because they don't use steroids". it's like the fake war on obesity that suggests that fat people are causally unhealthy simply because they are fat even though a critical reading of the peer reviewed research on obesity would show that this causal connection is spurious at best. human bodies and conditions that shape them are far more complex than simple causal relationships.
As for wrestlers, the example I cited wasn't some run-of-the-mill death. The guy had been using steroids (the Albany, NY DA's Office stated that he had purchased steroids and HGH online from a company in Florida) nad had a history of domestic voilence. "Roid Rage isn't a myth, so it's hard to deny that steroids played a role in that incident.
As for other wrestler deaths and NFL players dying at "about the same rate" you are totally wrong. Here's a brief list of wrestlers who have died over the past 10-15 years. Check out their ages and then try to find a comparable list of NFL players dying that young.
Lance Cade - 29 (heart failure)
Test - 33
Brian Pillman - 35 (heart attack)
The Wall - 35 (heart attack)
Umaga - 36 (heart attack)
Eddie Guerrero - 38 (heart attack)
Kronus - 38 (heart failure)
Davey Boy Smith - 39 (heart attack, autospsy specifically mentioned steroids' possible role)
Rick Rude - 40 (heart failure)
Big Boss Man - 42 (heart attack)
Brian Adams (Crush) - 43 (unknown causes, had received shipment of steroids prior to death)
Curt Hennig (Mr. Perfect) - 44
That list only has people I think most wrestling fans would know. Pretty much everyone on that list had used steroids. All but 2 or 3 of them died of heart troubles (and those 2 were known to use steroids and Curt Hennig's father blamed steroids for contributing to his death). Is there a similar number of NFL players dying between the ages of 29-44 from anything, let alone heart issues? If there is, it's news to me. Since the NFL tests for steroids, the use of any type of steroids is much less than it is in professional wrestling. The WWE tests for it now, but only after the Chris Benoit incident attracted so much negative attention for the company. All of the people listed above wrestled before the WWE tested its performers (and not all of them were WWE performers, anyway).
Kids Of Milwaukee Forced To Look Up To Ryan Braun On Technicality
MILWAUKEE—Despite ample evidence pointing to elevated levels of testosterone in Ryan Braun's urine, the mishandling of the Brewers slugger's sample means the region's young baseball players will once again have to look up to him, arbitrator Shyam Das ordered Thursday. "If you are a Wisconsin youngster and Ryan Braun has been your favorite player, you are still required to want to be just like him when you grow up," said Das, ordering area 12-year-olds and Little Leaguers to reattach previously discarded Ryan Braun posters to all affected bedroom doors. "Major League Baseball officially believes Ryan Braun when he says if you work really hard and don't corners, you'll be successful like him, and you are now required to resume believing that, too." Following the decision, Brewers Kids Club members had petitioned Das to allow them to start looking up to outfielder Corey Hart instead, but the arbitrator ruled that since the departure of free agent Prince Fielder, Braun is the only logical player for them to idolize.
http://www.theonion.com/articles/kids-of-milwaukee-forced-to-look-up-to-ryan-braun,27499/
(I suppose this is a grain of salt)
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninsca ... ds_and.php
(a little bit more interesting)
so fucking what if his head grew (I know you don't care RW). I'm guessing Bonds' health will be OK, long term. He did what he did, made a lot of dough, took the Giants to a world series, and really should be in the HOF. In fact, the HOF is a joke without him....but the high and mighty sportswriters will keep him out (the same sportswriters who, as someone said, were all over the mcgwire/sosa race even when they had to have known "something was up")
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
I know other players have needed bigger hats as they've aged, but that's more to do with them gaining weight as they get older. Bonds' hat size got bigger despite the fact that he started shaving his head and was in good enough shape to hit 73 HRs.
http://content.usatoday.com/communities ... mpotence/1
Also note the threats of violence he made towards his girlfriend at the time, which she testified about in his trial and is mentioned in the article above. This is common among steroid users. Do you really think that it's not relevent to the discussion about whether they should be legal or not?
As for his son's claims, I don't buy it for a second. That article you linked to shows a picture of the 2 of them together from 2007 and his son's head is clearly not bigger than Barry's--and that picture was taken 5 years later than the time frame being discussed. His son was about 12 or 13 at the time Bonds needed a bigger hat. Also, I doubt that the team's equipment manager would confuse the hat of a player with that of a bat boy. They actually have to measure the players' heads to find out what size hat they need, so where is the confusion between a bald guy in his late-30s and a teenager.
Steroids are deemed more unnatural because injuires suffered during a career might leave a player with a limp, arthritis, a bad back, etc. when they finish playing, but do any of those things cause a person to have fits of rage that make them aggressive an doften violent towards other people? No, they don't, but steroids do. Do any of those things cause someone to have a heart attack at 35? Nope, but steroids can. Yes, physical sports take a physical toll on an athlete's body but not to the extent that steroids do and those aches, pains, surgeries, etc. don't cause death in your 30s.
bonds was an asshole before he took steroids, while he took steroids and, probably, after he quit steroids. It's not all that relevant. hell, a lot of people turn into assholes when they drink alcohol. besides, kimberly bell is not exactly an unimpeachable witness.
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
And the Benoit case? What about the people Cliffy witnessed? And what about the fact that Bonds didn't treat her that way before taking steroids? You might think she's lying in order to sell books, but the DA that traced steroid shipments to Benoit isn't selling anything and neither is Cliffy. Roid Rage is not something people are making up. Bonds' reputation for being an ass doesn't negate every other instance of Roid Rage seen in other people.
I wish Bonds was clean. I was a fan of his despite his personality because I know sometimes the media can twist a player not liking the press and spin it as "_______ is a jerk." The guy was great when he was clean. I just wish he'd stayed that way because he was headed for the Hall. It's a shame.
For the 2012 Postseason only, the five-game Division Series will begin with two home games for lower seeds, followed by up to three home games for higher seeds. This one-year change will eliminate a travel day prior to a decisive Game Five of the Division Series and was necessary because the 2012 regular season schedule was announced before the agreement on the new Postseason was reached. Next year, the Division Series will return to the 2-2-1 format used in previous years.
:roll:
happened to the giants in 1997 when they lost 0-3 to the marlins. don't know when it changed after that. I remember thinking it was pretty jacked up at the time. I drove up for Game 3.....man, did I get drunk at that game.
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
he's a WWF wrestler, right? steroid use in MLB doesn't correlate to that shit. those guys are built like professional body builders.
I've got a ton of respect for your opinion, monster rain, but I'm done (at least for now
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
As for Roid Rage and other side effects, I'm not sure what you doubt. It exists. There are posters in this thread who have specifically mentioned witnessing the rage themselves. Even if you truly believe that the government is lying about steroids simply because Germany and China won some medals, what reason do you have for not believing people who have witnessed the effects in people they know?
http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/feat ... nd-answers
http://www.sportsci.org/encyc/anabstere ... ereff.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,187978,00.html
Sorry, I don't work for a charity to help millionaires deal with retirement. I need a job that pays so I can continue having a home. That doesn't mean I want them ruining their livers, growing breasts, damaging their hearts, or having fits of unprovoked rage. I also don't want them injuring other players or making kids think the best way to make millions of dollars playing sports is by taking dangerous drugs and I certainly don't want to see them die young just because they might have some pain later.
Ladies and Gentleman Your 2009 Super Bowl Champs putting bounties out for big hits. The commish is PISSED b/c his PR campaign about player safety has been exposed. And no one cares...
I hope at some point the LDS goes to 7 game and we'll be perfect.
10/31/09- Philly
5/21/10- NYC
9/2/12- Philly, PA
7/19/13- Wrigley
10/19/13- Brooklyn, NY
10/21/13- Philly, PA
10/22/13- Philly, PA
10/27/13- Baltimore, MD
4/28/16- Philly, PA
4/29/16- Philly, PA
5/1/16- NYC
5/2/16- NYC
9/2/18- Boston, MA
9/4/18- Boston, MA
9/14/22- Camden, NJ
9/7/24- Philly, PA
9/9/24- Philly, PA
Eddie Vedder- 6/25/11- Philly, PA
RNDM- 3/9/16- Philly, PA
They only rushed it because Selig told them he had to have it this year despite the regular season and postseason schedules having already been set. He's said as much in a few interviews over the last 2-3 months. What's stupid about rushing it is the fact that they couldn't have it this year without going to the old 2-3 format instead of the 2-2-1 format they've been using. The whole reason they changed to the 2-2-1 format was because they realized that the 2-3 format gave the lower seeded team an advantage by giving them 2 home games to start the series, meaning they could conceivably go into the higher-seeded team's stadium up 2-0. So now they've added an extra Wild Card team in an effort to make winning the division seem more important and awkwardly rushed it for this season by changing the LDS format to one that may actually favor the Wild Card team. But at least the league will have that extra game to get a little more money. Brilliant.
bud selig is a fucking moron. i know some people defend him here. but rushing this new format at the expense of home field advantage for the team that actually wins their division is absolutely ridiculous. he's accomplished the exact opposite of what he set out to do. doesn't matter that it's only for one year either. some teams/cities only get lucky once every century it seems. now they could get screwed over by this traveling mistake.
what's next? making something as trivial as an all star game decide homefield advantage in the world series?
then mlb in general then. whatever. he's the commissioner of a league that just made a bogus/rushed decision. buck stops somewhere dude.
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/ ... -ballpark/
I blame Bud for it because he's the one who has been pulbicly saying things like this back in January:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/b ... index.html
And this:
"We're working on dates right now. That'll all take place. It looks to me like we'll have it because I've told everybody we have to have it. It'll be exciting. One-game playoff, it will start the playoffs in a very exciting manner."
The man's a walking contradiction. In one breath he says the clubs all want it this year and in the next he says that he told everbody it has to happen this year. He says he wants to make winning the division mean something and then pushes for a format this year that could give the #5 seed an advantage because they get the first 2 games at home rather than wait a year and let the idea prgress naturally. No matter how good the #1 seed is, if they're down 2-0 in a 5-game series they have the odds stacked against them. It's the whole reason why they stopped using that format after 3 seasons.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/b ... index.html
http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/story/_ ... ecide-303m