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A sensible, hope filled all-purpose heavy duty Global Warming/ Climate Change thread.

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  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 29,139
    mickeyrat said:
    The only way to save the planet is for the the population to drop rapidly…
    Covid gave it one hell of a run.

    damn science.
    Thank Trump for the nudge, lol!
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 23,138
     
    OPINION

    GUEST ESSAY

    The Keystone XL Pipeline Is Dead. Next Target: Line 3.

    June 11, 2021
    Image
    A section of the Enbridge Line 3 crude oil pipeline in Superior Wis
    A section of the Enbridge Line 3 crude oil pipeline in Superior, Wis.Credit...Richard Tsong-Taatarii/Star Tribune, via Associated Press

    By Bill McKibben

    Mr. McKibben, a founder of the climate advocacy group 350.org, teaches environmental studies at Middlebury College and is the author of “Falter: Has the Human Game Begun to Play Itself Out?”

    The announcement this week from the Canadian company TC Energy that it was pulling the plug on the Keystone XL pipeline project was greeted with jubilation by Indigenous groups, farmers and ranchers, climate scientists and other activists who have spent the last decade fighting its construction.

    The question now is whether it will be a one-off victory or a template for action going forward — as it must, if we’re serious about either climate change or human rights. The next big challenge looms in northern Minnesota, where the Biden administration must soon decide about the Line 3 pipeline being built by the Canadian energy company Enbridge Inc. to replace and expand an aging pipeline.

    It’s easy to forget now how unlikely the Keystone fight really was. Indigenous activists and Midwest ranchers along the pipeline route kicked off the opposition. When it went national, 10 years ago this summer, with mass arrests outside the White House, pundits scoffed. More than 90 percent of Capitol Hill “insiders” polled by The National Journal said the company would get its permit.

    But the more than 1,200 people who were arrested in that protest helped galvanize a nationwide — even worldwide — movement that placed President Barack Obama under unrelenting pressure. Within a few months he’d paused the approval process, and in 2015 he killed the pipeline, deciding that it didn’t meet his climate test.

    ADVERTISEMENT

    “America’s now a global leader when it comes to taking serious action to fight climate change,” Mr. Obama said. “And frankly, approving this project would have undercut that global leadership. And that’s the biggest risk we face — not acting.”

    And that’s what puts the Biden administration in an impossible place now. Enbridge wants to replace Line 3, which runs from Canada’s tar sands deposits in Alberta across Minnesota to Superior, Wis., with a pipeline that follows a new route and would carry twice as much crude. It would carry almost as much of the same heavy crude oil as planned for the Keystone XL pipeline — crude that is among the most carbon-heavy petroleum on the planet.

    Call Line 3 Keystone, the Sequel.

    If Keystone failed the climate test, how could Line 3, with an initial capacity of 760,000 barrels a day, possibly pass? It’s as if the oil industry turned in an essay, got a failing grade, ignored every comment and then turned in the same essay again — except this time it was in ninth grade, not fourth. It’s not like the climate crisis has somehow improved since 2015 — it’s obviously gotten far worse. At this point, approving Line 3 would be absurd.

    Image
    Credit...Michael Siluk/Education Images -- Universal Images Group via Getty Images

    The Keystone announcement is no doubt buoying the spirits of the protesters, led by Indigenous campaigners who are currently occupying the headwaters of the Mississippi River where the Line 3 pipeline must go. They’ve pitched tents along a quarter-mile of wooden boardwalk that the pipeline company built to get its drilling rig to the bank of the river, and now there are prayers and ceremonies underway.

    The authorities could try to roust them out — earlier in the week, a U.S. Customs and Border Protection helicopter hovered above a group of protesters, throwing up a huge cloud of dust, an action that the federal government says is now under investigation. But it’s not just the climate that’s changed in the last few years; it’s also the political climate. In an era when officials talk constantly about coming to terms with the dark parts of American history, I doubt Mr. Biden actually wants to sic the cops on Native elders as they sit at the headwaters of one of America’s most storied rivers, on land that, as Native leaders are pointing out, by treaty should fall under Native control.

    Instead, the administration should pause construction on Line 3 and re-examine the river-crossing permits granted by the Army Corps of Engineers. The Department of Justice should stop trying to uphold the last administration’s decisions, which were made by people who thought climate change was a hoax. And the Biden administration should issue standards to make sure that new fossil fuel infrastructure has to pass a climate test — a test that takes into account America’s theoretical commitment to the Paris accords.

    That pact commits us to trying to hold the planet’s temperature increase to as close to 2.7 degrees Fahrenheit as possible. Climate scientists say emissions must fall 45 percent this decade to meet that goal. That’s why the International Energy Agency said last month that new fossil fuel investment must end this year. But the Biden administration also has to take a hard look at any new infrastructure, from liquefied natural gas export terminals on the Oregon coast to gas compressor stations in suburban Boston.

    The headwaters of the Mississippi are also, at least for now, the place where Mr. Biden’s climate commitment will be judged. Yes, Republicans will attack him if he blocks the pipeline, and so will some of the unions whose workers are likely to fill many of the 8,600 jobs that Enbridge says would be created over a two-year period. But the polls make clear that the people who elected Mr. Biden expect action on the climate. He can’t go backward; the climate test of 2015 means that Line 3 in 2021 is an anachronism that must be blocked.

    What we’ll find out next is whether Keystone lives up to its name — whether, with its demise, much of the rest of the elaborate architecture of fossil fuel expansion begins to topple. If so, then it will have been a victory not just for a decade but also for the ages.

    Bill McKibben, a founder of the climate advocacy group 350.org, teaches environmental studies at Middlebury College and is the author of “Falter: Has the Human Game Begun to Play Itself Out?”

    The Times is committed to publishing a diversity of letters to the editor. We’d like to hear what you think about this or any of our articles. Here are some tips. And here’s our email: [email protected].

    Follow The New York Times Opinion section on FacebookTwitter (@NYTopinion) and Instagram.


    Sign up for The Morning Newsletter

    Make sense of the day’s news and ideas. David Leonhardt and Times journalists guide you through what’s happening — and why it matters.



    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 35,557
    mickeyrat said:
     
    OPINION

    GUEST ESSAY

    The Keystone XL Pipeline Is Dead. Next Target: Line 3.

    June 11, 2021
    Image
    A section of the Enbridge Line 3 crude oil pipeline in Superior Wis
    A section of the Enbridge Line 3 crude oil pipeline in Superior, Wis.Credit...Richard Tsong-Taatarii/Star Tribune, via Associated Press

    By Bill McKibben

    Mr. McKibben, a founder of the climate advocacy group 350.org, teaches environmental studies at Middlebury College and is the author of “Falter: Has the Human Game Begun to Play Itself Out?”

    The announcement this week from the Canadian company TC Energy that it was pulling the plug on the Keystone XL pipeline project was greeted with jubilation by Indigenous groups, farmers and ranchers, climate scientists and other activists who have spent the last decade fighting its construction.

    The question now is whether it will be a one-off victory or a template for action going forward — as it must, if we’re serious about either climate change or human rights. The next big challenge looms in northern Minnesota, where the Biden administration must soon decide about the Line 3 pipeline being built by the Canadian energy company Enbridge Inc. to replace and expand an aging pipeline.

    It’s easy to forget now how unlikely the Keystone fight really was. Indigenous activists and Midwest ranchers along the pipeline route kicked off the opposition. When it went national, 10 years ago this summer, with mass arrests outside the White House, pundits scoffed. More than 90 percent of Capitol Hill “insiders” polled by The National Journal said the company would get its permit.

    But the more than 1,200 people who were arrested in that protest helped galvanize a nationwide — even worldwide — movement that placed President Barack Obama under unrelenting pressure. Within a few months he’d paused the approval process, and in 2015 he killed the pipeline, deciding that it didn’t meet his climate test.

    ADVERTISEMENT

    “America’s now a global leader when it comes to taking serious action to fight climate change,” Mr. Obama said. “And frankly, approving this project would have undercut that global leadership. And that’s the biggest risk we face — not acting.”

    And that’s what puts the Biden administration in an impossible place now. Enbridge wants to replace Line 3, which runs from Canada’s tar sands deposits in Alberta across Minnesota to Superior, Wis., with a pipeline that follows a new route and would carry twice as much crude. It would carry almost as much of the same heavy crude oil as planned for the Keystone XL pipeline — crude that is among the most carbon-heavy petroleum on the planet.

    Call Line 3 Keystone, the Sequel.

    If Keystone failed the climate test, how could Line 3, with an initial capacity of 760,000 barrels a day, possibly pass? It’s as if the oil industry turned in an essay, got a failing grade, ignored every comment and then turned in the same essay again — except this time it was in ninth grade, not fourth. It’s not like the climate crisis has somehow improved since 2015 — it’s obviously gotten far worse. At this point, approving Line 3 would be absurd.

    Image
    Credit...Michael Siluk/Education Images -- Universal Images Group via Getty Images

    The Keystone announcement is no doubt buoying the spirits of the protesters, led by Indigenous campaigners who are currently occupying the headwaters of the Mississippi River where the Line 3 pipeline must go. They’ve pitched tents along a quarter-mile of wooden boardwalk that the pipeline company built to get its drilling rig to the bank of the river, and now there are prayers and ceremonies underway.

    The authorities could try to roust them out — earlier in the week, a U.S. Customs and Border Protection helicopter hovered above a group of protesters, throwing up a huge cloud of dust, an action that the federal government says is now under investigation. But it’s not just the climate that’s changed in the last few years; it’s also the political climate. In an era when officials talk constantly about coming to terms with the dark parts of American history, I doubt Mr. Biden actually wants to sic the cops on Native elders as they sit at the headwaters of one of America’s most storied rivers, on land that, as Native leaders are pointing out, by treaty should fall under Native control.

    Instead, the administration should pause construction on Line 3 and re-examine the river-crossing permits granted by the Army Corps of Engineers. The Department of Justice should stop trying to uphold the last administration’s decisions, which were made by people who thought climate change was a hoax. And the Biden administration should issue standards to make sure that new fossil fuel infrastructure has to pass a climate test — a test that takes into account America’s theoretical commitment to the Paris accords.

    That pact commits us to trying to hold the planet’s temperature increase to as close to 2.7 degrees Fahrenheit as possible. Climate scientists say emissions must fall 45 percent this decade to meet that goal. That’s why the International Energy Agency said last month that new fossil fuel investment must end this year. But the Biden administration also has to take a hard look at any new infrastructure, from liquefied natural gas export terminals on the Oregon coast to gas compressor stations in suburban Boston.

    The headwaters of the Mississippi are also, at least for now, the place where Mr. Biden’s climate commitment will be judged. Yes, Republicans will attack him if he blocks the pipeline, and so will some of the unions whose workers are likely to fill many of the 8,600 jobs that Enbridge says would be created over a two-year period. But the polls make clear that the people who elected Mr. Biden expect action on the climate. He can’t go backward; the climate test of 2015 means that Line 3 in 2021 is an anachronism that must be blocked.

    What we’ll find out next is whether Keystone lives up to its name — whether, with its demise, much of the rest of the elaborate architecture of fossil fuel expansion begins to topple. If so, then it will have been a victory not just for a decade but also for the ages.

    Bill McKibben, a founder of the climate advocacy group 350.org, teaches environmental studies at Middlebury College and is the author of “Falter: Has the Human Game Begun to Play Itself Out?”

    The Times is committed to publishing a diversity of letters to the editor. We’d like to hear what you think about this or any of our articles. Here are some tips. And here’s our email: [email protected].

    Follow The New York Times Opinion section on FacebookTwitter (@NYTopinion) and Instagram.


    Sign up for The Morning Newsletter

    Make sense of the day’s news and ideas. David Leonhardt and Times journalists guide you through what’s happening — and why it matters.




    FINALLY!  Hallefuckinlujah!
    Bill McKibben is amazing.  Been following him for many years now...  350.org,  his many books (one of which I gave to an entomologist prof who used it in one of his courses), his willingness to resist, even when it meant going to jail for planet earth.
    Thank you, Bill McKibben!

    Bill McKibben 2016 croppedjpg
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 9,528
    So glad we got the west to admire .. they are such great environmentalist …

    Especially those amazing liberal environmentalists like the nimrod prime minister of Canada … he, he, he


    https://niagaraindependent.ca/the-dirty-secret-of-coal-exports-from-the-port-of-vancouver/


    The Dirty Secret of Coal Exports from the Port of Vancouver


    Operating in the very heartland of Canada’s green movement, what is occurring at this B.C. coast port is criminal by any environmental standard. And what is so startling about this secret, getting dirtier year-over-year, is that it is being supported by both the federal Liberal and provincial NDP Governments. Given the vilification of the prairies’ oil and gas industry by these same self-proclaimed environmental stewards, the silence surrounding the Port of Vancouver’s coal exports shouts out Canadians’ very own definition of hypocrisy.


    Give Peas A Chance…
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 9,528

    Environment

    ‘There’s no water,’ says California farm manager forced to leave fields fallow



    California may wanna start building desalinization plants…

    if you got no water then you can’t sustain life…and where else would California get there water from?


    Give Peas A Chance…
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 9,528

    West enters Day 7 of heat wave as experts warn not to walk barefoot on hot asphalt


    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/west-enters-day-7-heat-wave-experts-warn-not-walk-n1271292?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_ma

    wow?  Going to be a scorcher out west in the US this summer if this is any indication…get your AC tuned up…you don’t want it on the fritz in 100 + degree heat.


    Give Peas A Chance…
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 35,557

    Environment

    ‘There’s no water,’ says California farm manager forced to leave fields fallow



    California may wanna start building desalinization plants…

    if you got no water then you can’t sustain life…and where else would California get there water from?


    I've seen three reservoirs here in CA recently and they all look like they normally would in late summer.  We are drying up fast. 
    Meanwhile, 30,000 new homes are being built in and around Folsom, about 25 miles west of where we live.  This is pure insanity.

    West enters Day 7 of heat wave as experts warn not to walk barefoot on hot asphalt


    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/west-enters-day-7-heat-wave-experts-warn-not-walk-n1271292?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_ma

    wow?  Going to be a scorcher out west in the US this summer if this is any indication…get your AC tuned up…you don’t want it on the fritz in 100 + degree heat.



    It's going to be a long hot summer and a scary late summer/fall fire danger here.  Our Go Bag, cat carrier is packed and ready to go.  I've never had to think about this in June before as much as I am now.

    Thankfully, we coughed up the big bucks and replaced our AC a couple months ago.  The guy that did the job said our old unit was extremely close to breaking down and showed me the parts that were oh so close to going bad. 

    But what does running AC do?  Heats up the planet!  Why is it going to be such a difficult summer?  AC and cars, etc!  Around and around we go.
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 23,138
     
    Las Vegas pushes land swap to balance growth, conservation
    By SAM METZ
    Today

    CARSON CITY, Nev. (AP) — Record-breaking heat and historic drought in the U.S. West are doing little to discourage cities from planning to welcome millions of new residents in the decades ahead.

    From Phoenix to Boise, officials are preparing for a future both with more people and less water, seeking to balance growth and conservation. Development is constrained by the fact that 46% of the 11-state Western region is federal land, managed by agencies like the U.S. Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management that are tasked with maintaining it for future generations.

    That's led officials in states like Nevada and Utah to lobby the federal government to approve land transfers to allow developers to build homes and businesses on what had been public land. Supporters in the two states have won over environmentalists in the past with provisions that allocate proceeds to conservation projects, preserve other federal lands and prevent road construction, logging or energy exploration.

    A small group of opponents is arguing that routinely approving these kinds of “swaps” to facilitate growth isn't sustainable, particularly in areas that rely on a shrinking water supply.

    For the seven states that depend on the Colorado River — Arizona, California, Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico, Utah and Wyoming — a regional drought is so severe that less water is flowing to Lake Mead and Lake Powell, the two manmade reservoirs where river water is stored.

    If the level of Lake Mead keeps dropping through the summer as projected, the federal government will likely issue its first-ever official shortage declaration, which will prompt cuts in the share of water Arizona and Nevada receive.

    The predicament is playing out in the Las Vegas area, where environmental groups, local officials and homebuilders united behind a proposal from U.S. Sen. Catherine Cortez Masto that was heard in the Senate this week.

    The Nevada Democrat is pushing what she calls the largest conservation bill in state history to designate more than 3,125 square miles (8,094 square kilometers) of land for additional protections — roughly the size of Delaware and Rhode Island combined — and 48 square miles (124 square kilometers) for commercial and residential development, which is about the size of San Francisco.

    Some conservationists support the proposal because it would add federal land to the Red Rock Canyon National Conservation Area for recreation and reclassify some undeveloped parts of Clark County, where Las Vegas is located, and the Desert National Wildlife Refuge as Bureau of Land Management “wilderness areas," which carry stronger protections than national parks.

    Jocelyn Torres, field director for the Conservation Lands Foundation, said at the Senate hearing Wednesday that the protections would restore lands to more efficiently capture carbon, which would help mitigate rising temperatures.

    “Our public lands present our best chance to address climate change, our biodiversity crisis and invest in our local communities and economy,” she said.

    The effort mirrors land management pushes made over the past decade in Washington and Emery counties in Utah to designate wilderness and sell other parcels to developers to meet growth projections. The U.S. Census Bureau reported that St. George, in Washington County, was the nation's fifth-fastest growing metro area last year.

    In both regions, affordable housing is among officials' top concerns. Soaring home prices in California have added to a flow of people leaving for nearby states like Nevada, Arizona and Colorado, where open land, lower tax rates and jobs are attracting new residents.

    The fast-growing Las Vegas area lacks the housing supply to meet projected population growth. A 2019 University of Nevada, Las Vegas, study that Cortez Masto's legislation references projected the population in Clark County would increase 35%, to 3.1 million residents, by 2060. That spike will be difficult to accommodate without building in existing communities or public lands.

    “Due to this federal ownership, our options for planning and development are very constrained and require constant coordination with federal agencies,” Clark County Air Quality Department Director Marcie Henson said.

    Growth may stretch an already limited water supply. Water officials support the proposal, which allocates funding to maintaining the channels used to recycle wastewater through Lake Mead. The region has enacted some of the U.S. West's most aggressive conservation measures, including an outright ban on decorative grass in certain places, to prepare for growth.

    Last year, water officials projected a worst-case scenario in which consumption patterns and climate change could force them to find other supplies as soon as 2056. Critics say the projections are concerning.

    “This legislation doesn't have an identified, sustainable supply of water going out 50 years in the future,” said Kyle Roerink, executive director of the Nevada-based conservation group Great Basin Water Network. “When you couple that with everything that we’re reading about at Lake Mead and the Colorado River, it's very precarious to be putting forward a bill that invites another 825,000 people to the Mojave Desert.”

    Southern Nevada Water Authority General Manager John Entsminger said in a statement that the proposal "helps secure the water resources and facilities that SNWA needs to provide reliable and safe water to our customers for decades to come.”

    When Cortez Masto's proposal was introduced, there was little mention of how water factors into plans for future growth or if the conservation components of the bill could have any impact.

    Roerink said the plan's funding allocations for water infrastructure need to be accompanied by additional “serious, realistic modeling" of the Colorado River.

    “When an entity says, ‘Let's go and build some homes in this region,' there’s an implication that water’s going to be there in perpetuity," he said.

    ___

    Associated Press reporter Suman Naishadham in Washington, D.C., contributed to this report. Metz is a corps member for the Associated Press/Report for America Statehouse News Initiative. Report for America is a nonprofit national service program that places journalists in local newsrooms to report on undercovered issues.


    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 35,557
    mickeyrat said:
     
    Las Vegas pushes land swap to balance growth, conservation
    By SAM METZ
    Today

    CARSON CITY, Nev. (AP) — Record-breaking heat and historic drought in the U.S. West are doing little to discourage cities from planning to welcome millions of new residents in the decades ahead.

    From Phoenix to Boise, officials are preparing for a future both with more people and less water, seeking to balance growth and conservation. Development is constrained by the fact that 46% of the 11-state Western region is federal land, managed by agencies like the U.S. Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management that are tasked with maintaining it for future generations.

    That's led officials in states like Nevada and Utah to lobby the federal government to approve land transfers to allow developers to build homes and businesses on what had been public land. Supporters in the two states have won over environmentalists in the past with provisions that allocate proceeds to conservation projects, preserve other federal lands and prevent road construction, logging or energy exploration.

    A small group of opponents is arguing that routinely approving these kinds of “swaps” to facilitate growth isn't sustainable, particularly in areas that rely on a shrinking water supply.

    For the seven states that depend on the Colorado River — Arizona, California, Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico, Utah and Wyoming — a regional drought is so severe that less water is flowing to Lake Mead and Lake Powell, the two manmade reservoirs where river water is stored.

    If the level of Lake Mead keeps dropping through the summer as projected, the federal government will likely issue its first-ever official shortage declaration, which will prompt cuts in the share of water Arizona and Nevada receive.

    The predicament is playing out in the Las Vegas area, where environmental groups, local officials and homebuilders united behind a proposal from U.S. Sen. Catherine Cortez Masto that was heard in the Senate this week.

    The Nevada Democrat is pushing what she calls the largest conservation bill in state history to designate more than 3,125 square miles (8,094 square kilometers) of land for additional protections — roughly the size of Delaware and Rhode Island combined — and 48 square miles (124 square kilometers) for commercial and residential development, which is about the size of San Francisco.

    Some conservationists support the proposal because it would add federal land to the Red Rock Canyon National Conservation Area for recreation and reclassify some undeveloped parts of Clark County, where Las Vegas is located, and the Desert National Wildlife Refuge as Bureau of Land Management “wilderness areas," which carry stronger protections than national parks.

    Jocelyn Torres, field director for the Conservation Lands Foundation, said at the Senate hearing Wednesday that the protections would restore lands to more efficiently capture carbon, which would help mitigate rising temperatures.

    “Our public lands present our best chance to address climate change, our biodiversity crisis and invest in our local communities and economy,” she said.

    The effort mirrors land management pushes made over the past decade in Washington and Emery counties in Utah to designate wilderness and sell other parcels to developers to meet growth projections. The U.S. Census Bureau reported that St. George, in Washington County, was the nation's fifth-fastest growing metro area last year.

    In both regions, affordable housing is among officials' top concerns. Soaring home prices in California have added to a flow of people leaving for nearby states like Nevada, Arizona and Colorado, where open land, lower tax rates and jobs are attracting new residents.

    The fast-growing Las Vegas area lacks the housing supply to meet projected population growth. A 2019 University of Nevada, Las Vegas, study that Cortez Masto's legislation references projected the population in Clark County would increase 35%, to 3.1 million residents, by 2060. That spike will be difficult to accommodate without building in existing communities or public lands.

    “Due to this federal ownership, our options for planning and development are very constrained and require constant coordination with federal agencies,” Clark County Air Quality Department Director Marcie Henson said.

    Growth may stretch an already limited water supply. Water officials support the proposal, which allocates funding to maintaining the channels used to recycle wastewater through Lake Mead. The region has enacted some of the U.S. West's most aggressive conservation measures, including an outright ban on decorative grass in certain places, to prepare for growth.

    Last year, water officials projected a worst-case scenario in which consumption patterns and climate change could force them to find other supplies as soon as 2056. Critics say the projections are concerning.

    “This legislation doesn't have an identified, sustainable supply of water going out 50 years in the future,” said Kyle Roerink, executive director of the Nevada-based conservation group Great Basin Water Network. “When you couple that with everything that we’re reading about at Lake Mead and the Colorado River, it's very precarious to be putting forward a bill that invites another 825,000 people to the Mojave Desert.”

    Southern Nevada Water Authority General Manager John Entsminger said in a statement that the proposal "helps secure the water resources and facilities that SNWA needs to provide reliable and safe water to our customers for decades to come.”

    When Cortez Masto's proposal was introduced, there was little mention of how water factors into plans for future growth or if the conservation components of the bill could have any impact.

    Roerink said the plan's funding allocations for water infrastructure need to be accompanied by additional “serious, realistic modeling" of the Colorado River.

    “When an entity says, ‘Let's go and build some homes in this region,' there’s an implication that water’s going to be there in perpetuity," he said.

    ___

    Associated Press reporter Suman Naishadham in Washington, D.C., contributed to this report. Metz is a corps member for the Associated Press/Report for America Statehouse News Initiative. Report for America is a nonprofit national service program that places journalists in local newsrooms to report on undercovered issues.



    "officials are preparing for a future both with more people and less water, seeking to balance growth and conservation"
    What in the holy fuck do they mean by that:lol:
    "The west/ is the best"... right, Jim.  At fucking up.
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 23,138
    brianlux said:
    mickeyrat said:
     
    Las Vegas pushes land swap to balance growth, conservation
    By SAM METZ
    Today

    CARSON CITY, Nev. (AP) — Record-breaking heat and historic drought in the U.S. West are doing little to discourage cities from planning to welcome millions of new residents in the decades ahead.

    From Phoenix to Boise, officials are preparing for a future both with more people and less water, seeking to balance growth and conservation. Development is constrained by the fact that 46% of the 11-state Western region is federal land, managed by agencies like the U.S. Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management that are tasked with maintaining it for future generations.

    That's led officials in states like Nevada and Utah to lobby the federal government to approve land transfers to allow developers to build homes and businesses on what had been public land. Supporters in the two states have won over environmentalists in the past with provisions that allocate proceeds to conservation projects, preserve other federal lands and prevent road construction, logging or energy exploration.

    A small group of opponents is arguing that routinely approving these kinds of “swaps” to facilitate growth isn't sustainable, particularly in areas that rely on a shrinking water supply.

    For the seven states that depend on the Colorado River — Arizona, California, Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico, Utah and Wyoming — a regional drought is so severe that less water is flowing to Lake Mead and Lake Powell, the two manmade reservoirs where river water is stored.

    If the level of Lake Mead keeps dropping through the summer as projected, the federal government will likely issue its first-ever official shortage declaration, which will prompt cuts in the share of water Arizona and Nevada receive.

    The predicament is playing out in the Las Vegas area, where environmental groups, local officials and homebuilders united behind a proposal from U.S. Sen. Catherine Cortez Masto that was heard in the Senate this week.

    The Nevada Democrat is pushing what she calls the largest conservation bill in state history to designate more than 3,125 square miles (8,094 square kilometers) of land for additional protections — roughly the size of Delaware and Rhode Island combined — and 48 square miles (124 square kilometers) for commercial and residential development, which is about the size of San Francisco.

    Some conservationists support the proposal because it would add federal land to the Red Rock Canyon National Conservation Area for recreation and reclassify some undeveloped parts of Clark County, where Las Vegas is located, and the Desert National Wildlife Refuge as Bureau of Land Management “wilderness areas," which carry stronger protections than national parks.

    Jocelyn Torres, field director for the Conservation Lands Foundation, said at the Senate hearing Wednesday that the protections would restore lands to more efficiently capture carbon, which would help mitigate rising temperatures.

    “Our public lands present our best chance to address climate change, our biodiversity crisis and invest in our local communities and economy,” she said.

    The effort mirrors land management pushes made over the past decade in Washington and Emery counties in Utah to designate wilderness and sell other parcels to developers to meet growth projections. The U.S. Census Bureau reported that St. George, in Washington County, was the nation's fifth-fastest growing metro area last year.

    In both regions, affordable housing is among officials' top concerns. Soaring home prices in California have added to a flow of people leaving for nearby states like Nevada, Arizona and Colorado, where open land, lower tax rates and jobs are attracting new residents.

    The fast-growing Las Vegas area lacks the housing supply to meet projected population growth. A 2019 University of Nevada, Las Vegas, study that Cortez Masto's legislation references projected the population in Clark County would increase 35%, to 3.1 million residents, by 2060. That spike will be difficult to accommodate without building in existing communities or public lands.

    “Due to this federal ownership, our options for planning and development are very constrained and require constant coordination with federal agencies,” Clark County Air Quality Department Director Marcie Henson said.

    Growth may stretch an already limited water supply. Water officials support the proposal, which allocates funding to maintaining the channels used to recycle wastewater through Lake Mead. The region has enacted some of the U.S. West's most aggressive conservation measures, including an outright ban on decorative grass in certain places, to prepare for growth.

    Last year, water officials projected a worst-case scenario in which consumption patterns and climate change could force them to find other supplies as soon as 2056. Critics say the projections are concerning.

    “This legislation doesn't have an identified, sustainable supply of water going out 50 years in the future,” said Kyle Roerink, executive director of the Nevada-based conservation group Great Basin Water Network. “When you couple that with everything that we’re reading about at Lake Mead and the Colorado River, it's very precarious to be putting forward a bill that invites another 825,000 people to the Mojave Desert.”

    Southern Nevada Water Authority General Manager John Entsminger said in a statement that the proposal "helps secure the water resources and facilities that SNWA needs to provide reliable and safe water to our customers for decades to come.”

    When Cortez Masto's proposal was introduced, there was little mention of how water factors into plans for future growth or if the conservation components of the bill could have any impact.

    Roerink said the plan's funding allocations for water infrastructure need to be accompanied by additional “serious, realistic modeling" of the Colorado River.

    “When an entity says, ‘Let's go and build some homes in this region,' there’s an implication that water’s going to be there in perpetuity," he said.

    ___

    Associated Press reporter Suman Naishadham in Washington, D.C., contributed to this report. Metz is a corps member for the Associated Press/Report for America Statehouse News Initiative. Report for America is a nonprofit national service program that places journalists in local newsrooms to report on undercovered issues.



    "officials are preparing for a future both with more people and less water, seeking to balance growth and conservation"
    What in the holy fuck do they mean by that:lol:
    "The west/ is the best"... right, Jim.  At fucking up.

    its trickle down theory applied to the environment....
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 35,557
    California and the west will become like...
    BROKEN LEASHES ALL OVER THE FLOOR!
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 35,557
    mickeyrat said:
    brianlux said:
    mickeyrat said:
     
    Las Vegas pushes land swap to balance growth, conservation
    By SAM METZ
    Today

    CARSON CITY, Nev. (AP) — Record-breaking heat and historic drought in the U.S. West are doing little to discourage cities from planning to welcome millions of new residents in the decades ahead.

    From Phoenix to Boise, officials are preparing for a future both with more people and less water, seeking to balance growth and conservation. Development is constrained by the fact that 46% of the 11-state Western region is federal land, managed by agencies like the U.S. Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management that are tasked with maintaining it for future generations.

    That's led officials in states like Nevada and Utah to lobby the federal government to approve land transfers to allow developers to build homes and businesses on what had been public land. Supporters in the two states have won over environmentalists in the past with provisions that allocate proceeds to conservation projects, preserve other federal lands and prevent road construction, logging or energy exploration.

    A small group of opponents is arguing that routinely approving these kinds of “swaps” to facilitate growth isn't sustainable, particularly in areas that rely on a shrinking water supply.

    For the seven states that depend on the Colorado River — Arizona, California, Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico, Utah and Wyoming — a regional drought is so severe that less water is flowing to Lake Mead and Lake Powell, the two manmade reservoirs where river water is stored.

    If the level of Lake Mead keeps dropping through the summer as projected, the federal government will likely issue its first-ever official shortage declaration, which will prompt cuts in the share of water Arizona and Nevada receive.

    The predicament is playing out in the Las Vegas area, where environmental groups, local officials and homebuilders united behind a proposal from U.S. Sen. Catherine Cortez Masto that was heard in the Senate this week.

    The Nevada Democrat is pushing what she calls the largest conservation bill in state history to designate more than 3,125 square miles (8,094 square kilometers) of land for additional protections — roughly the size of Delaware and Rhode Island combined — and 48 square miles (124 square kilometers) for commercial and residential development, which is about the size of San Francisco.

    Some conservationists support the proposal because it would add federal land to the Red Rock Canyon National Conservation Area for recreation and reclassify some undeveloped parts of Clark County, where Las Vegas is located, and the Desert National Wildlife Refuge as Bureau of Land Management “wilderness areas," which carry stronger protections than national parks.

    Jocelyn Torres, field director for the Conservation Lands Foundation, said at the Senate hearing Wednesday that the protections would restore lands to more efficiently capture carbon, which would help mitigate rising temperatures.

    “Our public lands present our best chance to address climate change, our biodiversity crisis and invest in our local communities and economy,” she said.

    The effort mirrors land management pushes made over the past decade in Washington and Emery counties in Utah to designate wilderness and sell other parcels to developers to meet growth projections. The U.S. Census Bureau reported that St. George, in Washington County, was the nation's fifth-fastest growing metro area last year.

    In both regions, affordable housing is among officials' top concerns. Soaring home prices in California have added to a flow of people leaving for nearby states like Nevada, Arizona and Colorado, where open land, lower tax rates and jobs are attracting new residents.

    The fast-growing Las Vegas area lacks the housing supply to meet projected population growth. A 2019 University of Nevada, Las Vegas, study that Cortez Masto's legislation references projected the population in Clark County would increase 35%, to 3.1 million residents, by 2060. That spike will be difficult to accommodate without building in existing communities or public lands.

    “Due to this federal ownership, our options for planning and development are very constrained and require constant coordination with federal agencies,” Clark County Air Quality Department Director Marcie Henson said.

    Growth may stretch an already limited water supply. Water officials support the proposal, which allocates funding to maintaining the channels used to recycle wastewater through Lake Mead. The region has enacted some of the U.S. West's most aggressive conservation measures, including an outright ban on decorative grass in certain places, to prepare for growth.

    Last year, water officials projected a worst-case scenario in which consumption patterns and climate change could force them to find other supplies as soon as 2056. Critics say the projections are concerning.

    “This legislation doesn't have an identified, sustainable supply of water going out 50 years in the future,” said Kyle Roerink, executive director of the Nevada-based conservation group Great Basin Water Network. “When you couple that with everything that we’re reading about at Lake Mead and the Colorado River, it's very precarious to be putting forward a bill that invites another 825,000 people to the Mojave Desert.”

    Southern Nevada Water Authority General Manager John Entsminger said in a statement that the proposal "helps secure the water resources and facilities that SNWA needs to provide reliable and safe water to our customers for decades to come.”

    When Cortez Masto's proposal was introduced, there was little mention of how water factors into plans for future growth or if the conservation components of the bill could have any impact.

    Roerink said the plan's funding allocations for water infrastructure need to be accompanied by additional “serious, realistic modeling" of the Colorado River.

    “When an entity says, ‘Let's go and build some homes in this region,' there’s an implication that water’s going to be there in perpetuity," he said.

    ___

    Associated Press reporter Suman Naishadham in Washington, D.C., contributed to this report. Metz is a corps member for the Associated Press/Report for America Statehouse News Initiative. Report for America is a nonprofit national service program that places journalists in local newsrooms to report on undercovered issues.



    "officials are preparing for a future both with more people and less water, seeking to balance growth and conservation"
    What in the holy fuck do they mean by that:lol:
    "The west/ is the best"... right, Jim.  At fucking up.

    its trickle down theory applied to the environment....

    Water will be trickling down out here, that's for sure...
    Sweats Profusely GIFs - Get the best GIF on GIPHY

    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 9,528
    brianlux said:

    Environment

    ‘There’s no water,’ says California farm manager forced to leave fields fallow



    California may wanna start building desalinization plants…

    if you got no water then you can’t sustain life…and where else would California get there water from?


    I've seen three reservoirs here in CA recently and they all look like they normally would in late summer.  We are drying up fast. 
    Meanwhile, 30,000 new homes are being built in and around Folsom, about 25 miles west of where we live.  This is pure insanity.

    West enters Day 7 of heat wave as experts warn not to walk barefoot on hot asphalt


    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/west-enters-day-7-heat-wave-experts-warn-not-walk-n1271292?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_ma

    wow?  Going to be a scorcher out west in the US this summer if this is any indication…get your AC tuned up…you don’t want it on the fritz in 100 + degree heat.



    It's going to be a long hot summer and a scary late summer/fall fire danger here.  Our Go Bag, cat carrier is packed and ready to go.  I've never had to think about this in June before as much as I am now.

    Thankfully, we coughed up the big bucks and replaced our AC a couple months ago.  The guy that did the job said our old unit was extremely close to breaking down and showed me the parts that were oh so close to going bad. 

    But what does running AC do?  Heats up the planet!  Why is it going to be such a difficult summer?  AC and cars, etc!  Around and around we go.
    It is what it is at this point, sadly…there is no going back…who are we kidding.   There is just too many people on this earth and people use vast amounts of resources…often for no reason…
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 35,557
    brianlux said:

    Environment

    ‘There’s no water,’ says California farm manager forced to leave fields fallow



    California may wanna start building desalinization plants…

    if you got no water then you can’t sustain life…and where else would California get there water from?


    I've seen three reservoirs here in CA recently and they all look like they normally would in late summer.  We are drying up fast. 
    Meanwhile, 30,000 new homes are being built in and around Folsom, about 25 miles west of where we live.  This is pure insanity.

    West enters Day 7 of heat wave as experts warn not to walk barefoot on hot asphalt


    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/west-enters-day-7-heat-wave-experts-warn-not-walk-n1271292?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_ma

    wow?  Going to be a scorcher out west in the US this summer if this is any indication…get your AC tuned up…you don’t want it on the fritz in 100 + degree heat.



    It's going to be a long hot summer and a scary late summer/fall fire danger here.  Our Go Bag, cat carrier is packed and ready to go.  I've never had to think about this in June before as much as I am now.

    Thankfully, we coughed up the big bucks and replaced our AC a couple months ago.  The guy that did the job said our old unit was extremely close to breaking down and showed me the parts that were oh so close to going bad. 

    But what does running AC do?  Heats up the planet!  Why is it going to be such a difficult summer?  AC and cars, etc!  Around and around we go.
    It is what it is at this point, sadly…there is no going back…who are we kidding.   There is just too many people on this earth and people use vast amounts of resources…often for no reason…

    Too many people is certainly a big, if not the biggest part of the problem.  Using less/ wasting less energy might buy us some time.  But as much as I don't like to sound fatalistic, I don't see global warming reversing any time soon.  The best we can hope for is to slow it down.
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 29,139
    So the drought in the west has been going on for 20 years now.  We were to build a new prison in AZ in 08.  The prisons water system needed an overhaul so it wouldn't take up from the precious resource.

    The "gray water" was recirculated into the toilets saving millions of gallons of water.  Not sure why this can't be utilized in newer construction?

    Someone mentioned a desalination method for Cali to use.  You are spot on.  They should be doing that and filling rivers with it.  The Hoover Damn should have a pipeline built to it.

    Just some crazy thoughts.

    When the rivers are drying up here there isn't anything left to go down to Mexico to water their fields... 
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 35,557
    So the drought in the west has been going on for 20 years now.  We were to build a new prison in AZ in 08.  The prisons water system needed an overhaul so it wouldn't take up from the precious resource.

    The "gray water" was recirculated into the toilets saving millions of gallons of water.  Not sure why this can't be utilized in newer construction?

    Someone mentioned a desalination method for Cali to use.  You are spot on.  They should be doing that and filling rivers with it.  The Hoover Damn should have a pipeline built to it.

    Just some crazy thoughts.

    When the rivers are drying up here there isn't anything left to go down to Mexico to water their fields... 

    I've previously read that desalination is too expensive and hard on the environment to be a good solution to the water crisis.   But I haven't read any thing on that in quite some time so did a little looking around and found this article which provides some hope that it could work!

    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 29,139
    brianlux said:
    So the drought in the west has been going on for 20 years now.  We were to build a new prison in AZ in 08.  The prisons water system needed an overhaul so it wouldn't take up from the precious resource.

    The "gray water" was recirculated into the toilets saving millions of gallons of water.  Not sure why this can't be utilized in newer construction?

    Someone mentioned a desalination method for Cali to use.  You are spot on.  They should be doing that and filling rivers with it.  The Hoover Damn should have a pipeline built to it.

    Just some crazy thoughts.

    When the rivers are drying up here there isn't anything left to go down to Mexico to water their fields... 

    I've previously read that desalination is too expensive and hard on the environment to be a good solution to the water crisis.   But I haven't read any thing on that in quite some time so did a little looking around and found this article which provides some hope that it could work!

    I knew it was getting better.  We had one on our ship that used filters but wasn't very efficient.  Nice to see leaps and bounds have been made since then.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 35,557
    brianlux said:
    So the drought in the west has been going on for 20 years now.  We were to build a new prison in AZ in 08.  The prisons water system needed an overhaul so it wouldn't take up from the precious resource.

    The "gray water" was recirculated into the toilets saving millions of gallons of water.  Not sure why this can't be utilized in newer construction?

    Someone mentioned a desalination method for Cali to use.  You are spot on.  They should be doing that and filling rivers with it.  The Hoover Damn should have a pipeline built to it.

    Just some crazy thoughts.

    When the rivers are drying up here there isn't anything left to go down to Mexico to water their fields... 

    I've previously read that desalination is too expensive and hard on the environment to be a good solution to the water crisis.   But I haven't read any thing on that in quite some time so did a little looking around and found this article which provides some hope that it could work!

    I knew it was getting better.  We had one on our ship that used filters but wasn't very efficient.  Nice to see leaps and bounds have been made since then.

    Excellent!
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 29,139
    I'm curious about this article as to whom is ripping out their solar panels?  Everyone I know that has them "rented" them from the power companies and signed a lease for 20 years or so.  That big incentive was 5 years ago so there are at least another 15 for them.

    It's a shame that there isn't more recyclable parts on them.  Go figure a "green" source of energy is a mass polluter when it's lifespan is over...
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 23,138
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 9,528
    I'm curious about this article as to whom is ripping out their solar panels?  Everyone I know that has them "rented" them from the power companies and signed a lease for 20 years or so.  That big incentive was 5 years ago so there are at least another 15 for them.

    It's a shame that there isn't more recyclable parts on them.  Go figure a "green" source of energy is a mass polluter when it's lifespan is over...
    Here in Ontario it’s been near 15/16 years since the 1st solar/wind turbines started being built…so they are nearing the expected 20 year life cycle…and I have read that the turbines are not easily recycled…and for the amount that this has cost us here in Ontario for this green energy…we still get most of our energy needs from natural gas and nuclear…we have closed all our coal plants…and their has been discussion of Ontario and other provinces investing in another nuclear plant…
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 35,557

    I'm curious about this article as to whom is ripping out their solar panels?  Everyone I know that has them "rented" them from the power companies and signed a lease for 20 years or so.  That big incentive was 5 years ago so there are at least another 15 for them.

    It's a shame that there isn't more recyclable parts on them.  Go figure a "green" source of energy is a mass polluter when it's lifespan is over...

    James Howard Kunstler is an author and commentator who I followed for several years.  I gave up following him when he started going into some rather dubious political directions, but earlier, when his focus was energy, he really went out of his way to gather good information and present it in a clear and logical manner (as in his book, The Long Emergency).  One of the things he explained very clearly  were the obvious short coming of solar energy (and this was before some of the very solid evidence that solar fields are wrecking havoc on fragile desert ecosystems).  His words were not headed and many well-intentioned folks seeking to maintain a comfortable life style in a manner they thought was environmentally friendly dove into solar power with, at least to a degree, some blinders on.  What many do not get, or refuse to accept, is that in a world with 7.9 (give or take) billion people, more and more of us living like royalty and expecting a "green" planet is, as yet at least, not at all feasible.  
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 29,139
    brianlux said:

    I'm curious about this article as to whom is ripping out their solar panels?  Everyone I know that has them "rented" them from the power companies and signed a lease for 20 years or so.  That big incentive was 5 years ago so there are at least another 15 for them.

    It's a shame that there isn't more recyclable parts on them.  Go figure a "green" source of energy is a mass polluter when it's lifespan is over...

    James Howard Kunstler is an author and commentator who I followed for several years.  I gave up following him when he started going into some rather dubious political directions, but earlier, when his focus was energy, he really went out of his way to gather good information and present it in a clear and logical manner (as in his book, The Long Emergency).  One of the things he explained very clearly  were the obvious short coming of solar energy (and this was before some of the very solid evidence that solar fields are wrecking havoc on fragile desert ecosystems).  His words were not headed and many well-intentioned folks seeking to maintain a comfortable life style in a manner they thought was environmentally friendly dove into solar power with, at least to a degree, some blinders on.  What many do not get, or refuse to accept, is that in a world with 7.9 (give or take) billion people, more and more of us living like royalty and expecting a "green" planet is, as yet at least, not at all feasible.  
    I remember you bringing up the deserts and the solar panels.  I disagree with that a bunch and I wish Kunstler would go and revisit that and see if his theories prove true.

    The desert, Mojave for example has millions and millions of unused acreage where solar takes up a very small area of it.  

    What I do find alarming is that the solar panels have zero recyclable properties.

    I do remember a little snippet in Rolling Stone magazine in their "For us/Against us" page and in the Against us side it talked about George W removing the solar panels from when Carter was president.  It forgot to mention that he replaced them with brand new panels and a solar water heaters.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 35,557
    brianlux said:

    I'm curious about this article as to whom is ripping out their solar panels?  Everyone I know that has them "rented" them from the power companies and signed a lease for 20 years or so.  That big incentive was 5 years ago so there are at least another 15 for them.

    It's a shame that there isn't more recyclable parts on them.  Go figure a "green" source of energy is a mass polluter when it's lifespan is over...

    James Howard Kunstler is an author and commentator who I followed for several years.  I gave up following him when he started going into some rather dubious political directions, but earlier, when his focus was energy, he really went out of his way to gather good information and present it in a clear and logical manner (as in his book, The Long Emergency).  One of the things he explained very clearly  were the obvious short coming of solar energy (and this was before some of the very solid evidence that solar fields are wrecking havoc on fragile desert ecosystems).  His words were not headed and many well-intentioned folks seeking to maintain a comfortable life style in a manner they thought was environmentally friendly dove into solar power with, at least to a degree, some blinders on.  What many do not get, or refuse to accept, is that in a world with 7.9 (give or take) billion people, more and more of us living like royalty and expecting a "green" planet is, as yet at least, not at all feasible.  
    I remember you bringing up the deserts and the solar panels.  I disagree with that a bunch and I wish Kunstler would go and revisit that and see if his theories prove true.

    The desert, Mojave for example has millions and millions of unused acreage where solar takes up a very small area of it.  

    What I do find alarming is that the solar panels have zero recyclable properties.

    I do remember a little snippet in Rolling Stone magazine in their "For us/Against us" page and in the Against us side it talked about George W removing the solar panels from when Carter was president.  It forgot to mention that he replaced them with brand new panels and a solar water heaters.

    I wish I were more qualified to explain why desert solar panel fields are harmful.  I have a cousin who is an environmental lawyer who explained it all in detail.  He would be able to give you much better information on that.   One thing I will say is that I'm surprised you talk about "unused acreage".  Wilderness is unused acreage and surely you value wilderness, right?
    There is plenty of information out there on why desert solar panels are environmentally unsound.  I hope you will take some time to look into it.  I'm not going to argue this subject because I feel too strongly about it and don't want to get into it.  Please at least consider checking it out.
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 29,139
    brianlux said:
    brianlux said:

    I'm curious about this article as to whom is ripping out their solar panels?  Everyone I know that has them "rented" them from the power companies and signed a lease for 20 years or so.  That big incentive was 5 years ago so there are at least another 15 for them.

    It's a shame that there isn't more recyclable parts on them.  Go figure a "green" source of energy is a mass polluter when it's lifespan is over...

    James Howard Kunstler is an author and commentator who I followed for several years.  I gave up following him when he started going into some rather dubious political directions, but earlier, when his focus was energy, he really went out of his way to gather good information and present it in a clear and logical manner (as in his book, The Long Emergency).  One of the things he explained very clearly  were the obvious short coming of solar energy (and this was before some of the very solid evidence that solar fields are wrecking havoc on fragile desert ecosystems).  His words were not headed and many well-intentioned folks seeking to maintain a comfortable life style in a manner they thought was environmentally friendly dove into solar power with, at least to a degree, some blinders on.  What many do not get, or refuse to accept, is that in a world with 7.9 (give or take) billion people, more and more of us living like royalty and expecting a "green" planet is, as yet at least, not at all feasible.  
    I remember you bringing up the deserts and the solar panels.  I disagree with that a bunch and I wish Kunstler would go and revisit that and see if his theories prove true.

    The desert, Mojave for example has millions and millions of unused acreage where solar takes up a very small area of it.  

    What I do find alarming is that the solar panels have zero recyclable properties.

    I do remember a little snippet in Rolling Stone magazine in their "For us/Against us" page and in the Against us side it talked about George W removing the solar panels from when Carter was president.  It forgot to mention that he replaced them with brand new panels and a solar water heaters.

    I wish I were more qualified to explain why desert solar panel fields are harmful.  I have a cousin who is an environmental lawyer who explained it all in detail.  He would be able to give you much better information on that.   One thing I will say is that I'm surprised you talk about "unused acreage".  Wilderness is unused acreage and surely you value wilderness, right?
    There is plenty of information out there on why desert solar panels are environmentally unsound.  I hope you will take some time to look into it.  I'm not going to argue this subject because I feel too strongly about it and don't want to get into it.  Please at least consider checking it out.
    When the panels get put out there it's pretty much untouched land still.  People aren't running around all over it.

    The desert is a haven for people to play in out where I lived.

    We had more rabbits than people so if walking on the ground disrupts things then them rabbits are tearing shit up.
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 12,549
    Deserts are amazing, beautiful and fragile ecosystems that can take a really long time to recover from perturbations, if they ever do. The plant and animal life is adapted to living on the edge of sustainability and there is little reserve to allow for changes. While I can certainly see the appeal of making use of what appears to be “unused” and available land, there will be major impacts that remain even if the solar panels were removed. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 29,139
    Deserts are amazing, beautiful and fragile ecosystems that can take a really long time to recover from perturbations, if they ever do. The plant and animal life is adapted to living on the edge of sustainability and there is little reserve to allow for changes. While I can certainly see the appeal of making use of what appears to be “unused” and available land, there will be major impacts that remain even if the solar panels were removed. 
    I do understand the fragility of the landscape.  It does return to what it was if you leave it alone.  Messing with the vegetation is a big no no.

    Every abandoned structure or even new ones left alone will attract desert wildlife that wasn't once there.

    Abuse is where the problem lies.

    I wish I could take you all on some trips out to the Mojave and show you some of the neat things out there.

    After a rain or flood is when it gets really interesting.
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 23,138
    brianlux said:

    I'm curious about this article as to whom is ripping out their solar panels?  Everyone I know that has them "rented" them from the power companies and signed a lease for 20 years or so.  That big incentive was 5 years ago so there are at least another 15 for them.

    It's a shame that there isn't more recyclable parts on them.  Go figure a "green" source of energy is a mass polluter when it's lifespan is over...

    James Howard Kunstler is an author and commentator who I followed for several years.  I gave up following him when he started going into some rather dubious political directions, but earlier, when his focus was energy, he really went out of his way to gather good information and present it in a clear and logical manner (as in his book, The Long Emergency).  One of the things he explained very clearly  were the obvious short coming of solar energy (and this was before some of the very solid evidence that solar fields are wrecking havoc on fragile desert ecosystems).  His words were not headed and many well-intentioned folks seeking to maintain a comfortable life style in a manner they thought was environmentally friendly dove into solar power with, at least to a degree, some blinders on.  What many do not get, or refuse to accept, is that in a world with 7.9 (give or take) billion people, more and more of us living like royalty and expecting a "green" planet is, as yet at least, not at all feasible.  
    I remember you bringing up the deserts and the solar panels.  I disagree with that a bunch and I wish Kunstler would go and revisit that and see if his theories prove true.

    The desert, Mojave for example has millions and millions of unused acreage where solar takes up a very small area of it.  

    What I do find alarming is that the solar panels have zero recyclable properties.

    I do remember a little snippet in Rolling Stone magazine in their "For us/Against us" page and in the Against us side it talked about George W removing the solar panels from when Carter was president.  It forgot to mention that he replaced them with brand new panels and a solar water heaters.
    its not zero recyclable. its very little is cost effective to recycle. big difference.

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