Team Mueller

Is the steam. Carry on.
09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

"If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

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«134

Comments

  • dignindignin Posts: 6,634
    robert mueller obstruction GIF
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 17,409
    Parts his hair with a protractor.
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

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  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 25,344
    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 7,066
    brianlux said:
    Mueller sprinkles trump’s obfuscations on his morning Cheerios. 
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 25,344
    brianlux said:
    Mueller sprinkles trump’s obfuscations on his morning Cheerios. 
    Haha!  Well said.

    To me, this whole Mueller investigation is barely intelligible.  It's a conundrum, a Gordian knot, and us common folks are never going to know the whole story.
    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 25,344
    Here, for example, is the latest take on this whole mess from James Howard Kunstler.  Now, I'll be the first to admit that Mr. Kunstler is not always correct in his summation of various matters of which he writes.  However, what he does do is present plausible alternatives to party-line reactions that many of us latch on to in hopes of seeing Trump derailed- and that is understandable, but I do believe often impetuous.

    "Watergate had tragic Shakespearean overtones, with Nixon as King Lear, but Russia-Gate — perhaps the last gate America goes through on its giant slalom run to collapse — is but a Chinese Fire Drill writ large. The reason? In 1973, we were still a serious people. Today, the most lavishly credentialed elite in history believe the most preposterous “stories,” or, surely even worse, pretend to believe them for political advantage.

    Now, an epic battle of wills is setting up as Robert Mueller’s investigation concludes its business and its primary target, the Golden Golem of Greatness, girds his loins to push back. Behind the flimsy scrim of Russia collusion accusations stands a bewildering maze of criminal mischief by a matrix of federal agencies that lost control of their own dark operation to meddle in the 2016 election. The US intel community (CIA, NSA, FBI, etc), with the Department of Justice, all colluded with the Hillary Clinton campaign and the intel agencies of the UK and Australia, to derail Mr. Trump as a stooge of Russia and, when he shocked them by getting elected, mounted a desperate campaign to cover their asses knowing he had become their boss. The Obama White House was involved in all this, attempting to cloak itself in plausible deniability, which may be unwinding now, too. How might all this play out from here?

    One big mystery is how long will Mr. Trump wait to declassify any number of secret files, memoranda, and communications that he’s been sitting on for months. My guess is that this stuff amounts to a potent weapon against his adversaries and he will wait until Mr. Mueller releases a final report before declassifying it. Then, we’ll have a fine constitutional crisis as the two sides vie for some sort of adjudication. Who, for instance, will adjudicate the monkey business that is already on-the-record involving misdeeds in the Department of Justice itself? Will the DOJ split into two contesting camps, each charging the other? How might that work? Does the Acting Attorney General Mr. Whitaker seek indictments against figures such as Bruce Ohr, Andrew McCabe, Peter Strzok, et al. Will he also rope in intel cowboys John Brennan and James Clapper? Might Hillary find herself in jeopardy — all the while on the other side Mr. Mueller pursues his targets, characters like Mr. Manafort, Michael Cohen, and the hapless Carter Page?

    Or might Mr. Mueller, and others, possibly find themselves in trouble, as spearheads of a bad-faith campaign to weaponize government agencies against a sitting president? That might sound outlandish, but the evidence is adding up. In fact the evidence of a Deep State gone rogue is far more compelling than any charges Mr. Mueller has so far produced on Trump-Russia “collusion.” An example of bad faith is former FBI Director James Comey’s current campaign to avoid testifying in closed session before the House Judiciary and Oversight committees — he filed a motion just before Thanksgiving. Mr. Comey is pretending that an open session would be “transparent.” His claim is mendacious. If he were questioned about classified matters in an open session, he would do exactly what he did before in open session: decline to answer about “sensitive” matters on the basis of national security. He could make no such claims in a closed session. The truth is, his attorneys are trying to run out the clock on the current composition of the house committees, which will come under a Democrat majority in January, so that Mr. Comey can avoid testifying altogether.

    There are other dicey matters awaiting some kind of adjudication elsewhere. For instance, who is going to review the chain of decisions among the FISA judges who approved of warrants made in bad faith to spy on US citizens? Perhaps the shrinking violet, Mr. Huber, out in the Utah Prosecutor’s Office of the DOJ, is looking into all that. He’s been at something for most of the year (nobody knows what). He has to answer to Mr. Whitaker now, or the permanent AG who replaces him. And why is Mr. Trump dragging his heels on nominating a permanent AG? I suppose the FISA court matter will fall to the Supreme Court, but how does that process work, and how long might it take?

    The potential for a stand-off exists that will confound any effort to untangle these things, and I can see how that might lead to an extraordinary crisis in which Mr. Trump has to declare some form of emergency or perhaps martial law to clean out this suppurating abscess of illegality and sedition. That can only be the last and worst resort, but what if the US judicial system just can’t manage to clean up the mess it has made?"


    http://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nation/deep-quandaries-of-the-deep-state/



    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • dignindignin Posts: 6,634
    brianlux said:
    Here, for example, is the latest take on this whole mess from James Howard Kunstler.  Now, I'll be the first to admit that Mr. Kunstler is not always correct in his summation of various matters of which he writes.  However, what he does do is present plausible alternatives to party-line reactions that many of us latch on to in hopes of seeing Trump derailed- and that is understandable, but I do believe often impetuous.

    "Watergate had tragic Shakespearean overtones, with Nixon as King Lear, but Russia-Gate — perhaps the last gate America goes through on its giant slalom run to collapse — is but a Chinese Fire Drill writ large. The reason? In 1973, we were still a serious people. Today, the most lavishly credentialed elite in history believe the most preposterous “stories,” or, surely even worse, pretend to believe them for political advantage.

    Now, an epic battle of wills is setting up as Robert Mueller’s investigation concludes its business and its primary target, the Golden Golem of Greatness, girds his loins to push back. Behind the flimsy scrim of Russia collusion accusations stands a bewildering maze of criminal mischief by a matrix of federal agencies that lost control of their own dark operation to meddle in the 2016 election. The US intel community (CIA, NSA, FBI, etc), with the Department of Justice, all colluded with the Hillary Clinton campaign and the intel agencies of the UK and Australia, to derail Mr. Trump as a stooge of Russia and, when he shocked them by getting elected, mounted a desperate campaign to cover their asses knowing he had become their boss. The Obama White House was involved in all this, attempting to cloak itself in plausible deniability, which may be unwinding now, too. How might all this play out from here?

    One big mystery is how long will Mr. Trump wait to declassify any number of secret files, memoranda, and communications that he’s been sitting on for months. My guess is that this stuff amounts to a potent weapon against his adversaries and he will wait until Mr. Mueller releases a final report before declassifying it. Then, we’ll have a fine constitutional crisis as the two sides vie for some sort of adjudication. Who, for instance, will adjudicate the monkey business that is already on-the-record involving misdeeds in the Department of Justice itself? Will the DOJ split into two contesting camps, each charging the other? How might that work? Does the Acting Attorney General Mr. Whitaker seek indictments against figures such as Bruce Ohr, Andrew McCabe, Peter Strzok, et al. Will he also rope in intel cowboys John Brennan and James Clapper? Might Hillary find herself in jeopardy — all the while on the other side Mr. Mueller pursues his targets, characters like Mr. Manafort, Michael Cohen, and the hapless Carter Page?

    Or might Mr. Mueller, and others, possibly find themselves in trouble, as spearheads of a bad-faith campaign to weaponize government agencies against a sitting president? That might sound outlandish, but the evidence is adding up. In fact the evidence of a Deep State gone rogue is far more compelling than any charges Mr. Mueller has so far produced on Trump-Russia “collusion.” An example of bad faith is former FBI Director James Comey’s current campaign to avoid testifying in closed session before the House Judiciary and Oversight committees — he filed a motion just before Thanksgiving. Mr. Comey is pretending that an open session would be “transparent.” His claim is mendacious. If he were questioned about classified matters in an open session, he would do exactly what he did before in open session: decline to answer about “sensitive” matters on the basis of national security. He could make no such claims in a closed session. The truth is, his attorneys are trying to run out the clock on the current composition of the house committees, which will come under a Democrat majority in January, so that Mr. Comey can avoid testifying altogether.

    There are other dicey matters awaiting some kind of adjudication elsewhere. For instance, who is going to review the chain of decisions among the FISA judges who approved of warrants made in bad faith to spy on US citizens? Perhaps the shrinking violet, Mr. Huber, out in the Utah Prosecutor’s Office of the DOJ, is looking into all that. He’s been at something for most of the year (nobody knows what). He has to answer to Mr. Whitaker now, or the permanent AG who replaces him. And why is Mr. Trump dragging his heels on nominating a permanent AG? I suppose the FISA court matter will fall to the Supreme Court, but how does that process work, and how long might it take?

    The potential for a stand-off exists that will confound any effort to untangle these things, and I can see how that might lead to an extraordinary crisis in which Mr. Trump has to declare some form of emergency or perhaps martial law to clean out this suppurating abscess of illegality and sedition. That can only be the last and worst resort, but what if the US judicial system just can’t manage to clean up the mess it has made?"


    http://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nation/deep-quandaries-of-the-deep-state/



    Was that satire?
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 25,344
    dignin said:
    brianlux said:
    Here, for example, is the latest take on this whole mess from James Howard Kunstler.  Now, I'll be the first to admit that Mr. Kunstler is not always correct in his summation of various matters of which he writes.  However, what he does do is present plausible alternatives to party-line reactions that many of us latch on to in hopes of seeing Trump derailed- and that is understandable, but I do believe often impetuous.

    "Watergate had tragic Shakespearean overtones, with Nixon as King Lear, but Russia-Gate — perhaps the last gate America goes through on its giant slalom run to collapse — is but a Chinese Fire Drill writ large. The reason? In 1973, we were still a serious people. Today, the most lavishly credentialed elite in history believe the most preposterous “stories,” or, surely even worse, pretend to believe them for political advantage.

    Now, an epic battle of wills is setting up as Robert Mueller’s investigation concludes its business and its primary target, the Golden Golem of Greatness, girds his loins to push back. Behind the flimsy scrim of Russia collusion accusations stands a bewildering maze of criminal mischief by a matrix of federal agencies that lost control of their own dark operation to meddle in the 2016 election. The US intel community (CIA, NSA, FBI, etc), with the Department of Justice, all colluded with the Hillary Clinton campaign and the intel agencies of the UK and Australia, to derail Mr. Trump as a stooge of Russia and, when he shocked them by getting elected, mounted a desperate campaign to cover their asses knowing he had become their boss. The Obama White House was involved in all this, attempting to cloak itself in plausible deniability, which may be unwinding now, too. How might all this play out from here?

    One big mystery is how long will Mr. Trump wait to declassify any number of secret files, memoranda, and communications that he’s been sitting on for months. My guess is that this stuff amounts to a potent weapon against his adversaries and he will wait until Mr. Mueller releases a final report before declassifying it. Then, we’ll have a fine constitutional crisis as the two sides vie for some sort of adjudication. Who, for instance, will adjudicate the monkey business that is already on-the-record involving misdeeds in the Department of Justice itself? Will the DOJ split into two contesting camps, each charging the other? How might that work? Does the Acting Attorney General Mr. Whitaker seek indictments against figures such as Bruce Ohr, Andrew McCabe, Peter Strzok, et al. Will he also rope in intel cowboys John Brennan and James Clapper? Might Hillary find herself in jeopardy — all the while on the other side Mr. Mueller pursues his targets, characters like Mr. Manafort, Michael Cohen, and the hapless Carter Page?

    Or might Mr. Mueller, and others, possibly find themselves in trouble, as spearheads of a bad-faith campaign to weaponize government agencies against a sitting president? That might sound outlandish, but the evidence is adding up. In fact the evidence of a Deep State gone rogue is far more compelling than any charges Mr. Mueller has so far produced on Trump-Russia “collusion.” An example of bad faith is former FBI Director James Comey’s current campaign to avoid testifying in closed session before the House Judiciary and Oversight committees — he filed a motion just before Thanksgiving. Mr. Comey is pretending that an open session would be “transparent.” His claim is mendacious. If he were questioned about classified matters in an open session, he would do exactly what he did before in open session: decline to answer about “sensitive” matters on the basis of national security. He could make no such claims in a closed session. The truth is, his attorneys are trying to run out the clock on the current composition of the house committees, which will come under a Democrat majority in January, so that Mr. Comey can avoid testifying altogether.

    There are other dicey matters awaiting some kind of adjudication elsewhere. For instance, who is going to review the chain of decisions among the FISA judges who approved of warrants made in bad faith to spy on US citizens? Perhaps the shrinking violet, Mr. Huber, out in the Utah Prosecutor’s Office of the DOJ, is looking into all that. He’s been at something for most of the year (nobody knows what). He has to answer to Mr. Whitaker now, or the permanent AG who replaces him. And why is Mr. Trump dragging his heels on nominating a permanent AG? I suppose the FISA court matter will fall to the Supreme Court, but how does that process work, and how long might it take?

    The potential for a stand-off exists that will confound any effort to untangle these things, and I can see how that might lead to an extraordinary crisis in which Mr. Trump has to declare some form of emergency or perhaps martial law to clean out this suppurating abscess of illegality and sedition. That can only be the last and worst resort, but what if the US judicial system just can’t manage to clean up the mess it has made?"


    http://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nation/deep-quandaries-of-the-deep-state/



    Was that satire?
    There's always a grain of satire in Kunstler's writing but generally, right or wrong, the man speaks his mind.  I don't totally subscribe to everything he say but, as I said, he does present points of view I believe are worth considering.  He challenges some of my potentially knee jerk thinking on some issues.  I like that kind of challenge. 

    I don't see things like the collusion issue as black and white.  I don't see a strict party line division.  I think both sides have some real issues that need addressing.  More so the Republican party, yes, but Dems too, without a doubt. 
    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • njnancynjnancy Northern New JerseyPosts: 3,509
    brianlux said:
    dignin said:
    brianlux said:
    Here, for example, is the latest take on this whole mess from James Howard Kunstler.  Now, I'll be the first to admit that Mr. Kunstler is not always correct in his summation of various matters of which he writes.  However, what he does do is present plausible alternatives to party-line reactions that many of us latch on to in hopes of seeing Trump derailed- and that is understandable, but I do believe often impetuous.

    "Watergate had tragic Shakespearean overtones, with Nixon as King Lear, but Russia-Gate — perhaps the last gate America goes through on its giant slalom run to collapse — is but a Chinese Fire Drill writ large. The reason? In 1973, we were still a serious people. Today, the most lavishly credentialed elite in history believe the most preposterous “stories,” or, surely even worse, pretend to believe them for political advantage.

    Now, an epic battle of wills is setting up as Robert Mueller’s investigation concludes its business and its primary target, the Golden Golem of Greatness, girds his loins to push back. Behind the flimsy scrim of Russia collusion accusations stands a bewildering maze of criminal mischief by a matrix of federal agencies that lost control of their own dark operation to meddle in the 2016 election. The US intel community (CIA, NSA, FBI, etc), with the Department of Justice, all colluded with the Hillary Clinton campaign and the intel agencies of the UK and Australia, to derail Mr. Trump as a stooge of Russia and, when he shocked them by getting elected, mounted a desperate campaign to cover their asses knowing he had become their boss. The Obama White House was involved in all this, attempting to cloak itself in plausible deniability, which may be unwinding now, too. How might all this play out from here?

    One big mystery is how long will Mr. Trump wait to declassify any number of secret files, memoranda, and communications that he’s been sitting on for months. My guess is that this stuff amounts to a potent weapon against his adversaries and he will wait until Mr. Mueller releases a final report before declassifying it. Then, we’ll have a fine constitutional crisis as the two sides vie for some sort of adjudication. Who, for instance, will adjudicate the monkey business that is already on-the-record involving misdeeds in the Department of Justice itself? Will the DOJ split into two contesting camps, each charging the other? How might that work? Does the Acting Attorney General Mr. Whitaker seek indictments against figures such as Bruce Ohr, Andrew McCabe, Peter Strzok, et al. Will he also rope in intel cowboys John Brennan and James Clapper? Might Hillary find herself in jeopardy — all the while on the other side Mr. Mueller pursues his targets, characters like Mr. Manafort, Michael Cohen, and the hapless Carter Page?

    Or might Mr. Mueller, and others, possibly find themselves in trouble, as spearheads of a bad-faith campaign to weaponize government agencies against a sitting president? That might sound outlandish, but the evidence is adding up. In fact the evidence of a Deep State gone rogue is far more compelling than any charges Mr. Mueller has so far produced on Trump-Russia “collusion.” An example of bad faith is former FBI Director James Comey’s current campaign to avoid testifying in closed session before the House Judiciary and Oversight committees — he filed a motion just before Thanksgiving. Mr. Comey is pretending that an open session would be “transparent.” His claim is mendacious. If he were questioned about classified matters in an open session, he would do exactly what he did before in open session: decline to answer about “sensitive” matters on the basis of national security. He could make no such claims in a closed session. The truth is, his attorneys are trying to run out the clock on the current composition of the house committees, which will come under a Democrat majority in January, so that Mr. Comey can avoid testifying altogether.

    There are other dicey matters awaiting some kind of adjudication elsewhere. For instance, who is going to review the chain of decisions among the FISA judges who approved of warrants made in bad faith to spy on US citizens? Perhaps the shrinking violet, Mr. Huber, out in the Utah Prosecutor’s Office of the DOJ, is looking into all that. He’s been at something for most of the year (nobody knows what). He has to answer to Mr. Whitaker now, or the permanent AG who replaces him. And why is Mr. Trump dragging his heels on nominating a permanent AG? I suppose the FISA court matter will fall to the Supreme Court, but how does that process work, and how long might it take?

    The potential for a stand-off exists that will confound any effort to untangle these things, and I can see how that might lead to an extraordinary crisis in which Mr. Trump has to declare some form of emergency or perhaps martial law to clean out this suppurating abscess of illegality and sedition. That can only be the last and worst resort, but what if the US judicial system just can’t manage to clean up the mess it has made?"


    http://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nation/deep-quandaries-of-the-deep-state/



    Was that satire?
    There's always a grain of satire in Kunstler's writing but generally, right or wrong, the man speaks his mind.  I don't totally subscribe to everything he say but, as I said, he does present points of view I believe are worth considering.  He challenges some of my potentially knee jerk thinking on some issues.  I like that kind of challenge. 

    I don't see things like the collusion issue as black and white.  I don't see a strict party line division.  I think both sides have some real issues that need addressing.  More so the Republican party, yes, but Dems too, without a doubt. 
    I value your opinion Brian, but that article was deep state conspiracy at its finest. 
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 16,019
    Funny how progressives love & trust the CIA all of the sudden...

    Some people like being presented information/opinions that aligns with the narrative they prefer... some people like to be presented with information/opinions that challenge their beliefs and opinions. 

    BS has been saying for 18 months exactly what that article says, i think it's interesting to consider. Thanks for posting it B-Lux


  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 17,409
    His middle name is Swan.
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

    Brilliantati©
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 25,344
    njnancy said:
    brianlux said:
    dignin said:
    brianlux said:
    Here, for example, is the latest take on this whole mess from James Howard Kunstler.  Now, I'll be the first to admit that Mr. Kunstler is not always correct in his summation of various matters of which he writes.  However, what he does do is present plausible alternatives to party-line reactions that many of us latch on to in hopes of seeing Trump derailed- and that is understandable, but I do believe often impetuous.

    "Watergate had tragic Shakespearean overtones, with Nixon as King Lear, but Russia-Gate — perhaps the last gate America goes through on its giant slalom run to collapse — is but a Chinese Fire Drill writ large. The reason? In 1973, we were still a serious people. Today, the most lavishly credentialed elite in history believe the most preposterous “stories,” or, surely even worse, pretend to believe them for political advantage.

    Now, an epic battle of wills is setting up as Robert Mueller’s investigation concludes its business and its primary target, the Golden Golem of Greatness, girds his loins to push back. Behind the flimsy scrim of Russia collusion accusations stands a bewildering maze of criminal mischief by a matrix of federal agencies that lost control of their own dark operation to meddle in the 2016 election. The US intel community (CIA, NSA, FBI, etc), with the Department of Justice, all colluded with the Hillary Clinton campaign and the intel agencies of the UK and Australia, to derail Mr. Trump as a stooge of Russia and, when he shocked them by getting elected, mounted a desperate campaign to cover their asses knowing he had become their boss. The Obama White House was involved in all this, attempting to cloak itself in plausible deniability, which may be unwinding now, too. How might all this play out from here?

    One big mystery is how long will Mr. Trump wait to declassify any number of secret files, memoranda, and communications that he’s been sitting on for months. My guess is that this stuff amounts to a potent weapon against his adversaries and he will wait until Mr. Mueller releases a final report before declassifying it. Then, we’ll have a fine constitutional crisis as the two sides vie for some sort of adjudication. Who, for instance, will adjudicate the monkey business that is already on-the-record involving misdeeds in the Department of Justice itself? Will the DOJ split into two contesting camps, each charging the other? How might that work? Does the Acting Attorney General Mr. Whitaker seek indictments against figures such as Bruce Ohr, Andrew McCabe, Peter Strzok, et al. Will he also rope in intel cowboys John Brennan and James Clapper? Might Hillary find herself in jeopardy — all the while on the other side Mr. Mueller pursues his targets, characters like Mr. Manafort, Michael Cohen, and the hapless Carter Page?

    Or might Mr. Mueller, and others, possibly find themselves in trouble, as spearheads of a bad-faith campaign to weaponize government agencies against a sitting president? That might sound outlandish, but the evidence is adding up. In fact the evidence of a Deep State gone rogue is far more compelling than any charges Mr. Mueller has so far produced on Trump-Russia “collusion.” An example of bad faith is former FBI Director James Comey’s current campaign to avoid testifying in closed session before the House Judiciary and Oversight committees — he filed a motion just before Thanksgiving. Mr. Comey is pretending that an open session would be “transparent.” His claim is mendacious. If he were questioned about classified matters in an open session, he would do exactly what he did before in open session: decline to answer about “sensitive” matters on the basis of national security. He could make no such claims in a closed session. The truth is, his attorneys are trying to run out the clock on the current composition of the house committees, which will come under a Democrat majority in January, so that Mr. Comey can avoid testifying altogether.

    There are other dicey matters awaiting some kind of adjudication elsewhere. For instance, who is going to review the chain of decisions among the FISA judges who approved of warrants made in bad faith to spy on US citizens? Perhaps the shrinking violet, Mr. Huber, out in the Utah Prosecutor’s Office of the DOJ, is looking into all that. He’s been at something for most of the year (nobody knows what). He has to answer to Mr. Whitaker now, or the permanent AG who replaces him. And why is Mr. Trump dragging his heels on nominating a permanent AG? I suppose the FISA court matter will fall to the Supreme Court, but how does that process work, and how long might it take?

    The potential for a stand-off exists that will confound any effort to untangle these things, and I can see how that might lead to an extraordinary crisis in which Mr. Trump has to declare some form of emergency or perhaps martial law to clean out this suppurating abscess of illegality and sedition. That can only be the last and worst resort, but what if the US judicial system just can’t manage to clean up the mess it has made?"


    http://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nation/deep-quandaries-of-the-deep-state/



    Was that satire?
    There's always a grain of satire in Kunstler's writing but generally, right or wrong, the man speaks his mind.  I don't totally subscribe to everything he say but, as I said, he does present points of view I believe are worth considering.  He challenges some of my potentially knee jerk thinking on some issues.  I like that kind of challenge. 

    I don't see things like the collusion issue as black and white.  I don't see a strict party line division.  I think both sides have some real issues that need addressing.  More so the Republican party, yes, but Dems too, without a doubt. 
    I value your opinion Brian, but that article was deep state conspiracy at its finest. 
    Thank you, Nancy. 

    Like I said, I don't believe everything Kunstler writes.  But on the other hand, I've followed him in books and his blog for quite sometime and he isn't always wrong either.  But the main point is twofold:  One, that we really don't know all that is behind all this and pretending we do is an iffy proposition, and two: the truth very likely is not exactly like any picture we have been painted and viewing all of those picture with some skepticism is, I believe, wise.
    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 16,019
    Two sides to every story...

    Democrats still think the "random" 20 minute private tarmac meeting between Bill Clinton and the AG Loretta Lynch in charge of investigating his wife and democratic nominee was totally coincidental and no big deal??? Yeah, i'm sure they discussed West Virginia coal and related policies (how gullible do they think we are?)

    Denial is a beautiful river
  • njnancynjnancy Northern New JerseyPosts: 3,509
    brianlux said:
    njnancy said:
    brianlux said:
    dignin said:
    brianlux said:
    Here, for example, is the latest take on this whole mess from James Howard Kunstler.  Now, I'll be the first to admit that Mr. Kunstler is not always correct in his summation of various matters of which he writes.  However, what he does do is present plausible alternatives to party-line reactions that many of us latch on to in hopes of seeing Trump derailed- and that is understandable, but I do believe often impetuous.

    "Watergate had tragic Shakespearean overtones, with Nixon as King Lear, but Russia-Gate — perhaps the last gate America goes through on its giant slalom run to collapse — is but a Chinese Fire Drill writ large. The reason? In 1973, we were still a serious people. Today, the most lavishly credentialed elite in history believe the most preposterous “stories,” or, surely even worse, pretend to believe them for political advantage.

    Now, an epic battle of wills is setting up as Robert Mueller’s investigation concludes its business and its primary target, the Golden Golem of Greatness, girds his loins to push back. Behind the flimsy scrim of Russia collusion accusations stands a bewildering maze of criminal mischief by a matrix of federal agencies that lost control of their own dark operation to meddle in the 2016 election. The US intel community (CIA, NSA, FBI, etc), with the Department of Justice, all colluded with the Hillary Clinton campaign and the intel agencies of the UK and Australia, to derail Mr. Trump as a stooge of Russia and, when he shocked them by getting elected, mounted a desperate campaign to cover their asses knowing he had become their boss. The Obama White House was involved in all this, attempting to cloak itself in plausible deniability, which may be unwinding now, too. How might all this play out from here?

    One big mystery is how long will Mr. Trump wait to declassify any number of secret files, memoranda, and communications that he’s been sitting on for months. My guess is that this stuff amounts to a potent weapon against his adversaries and he will wait until Mr. Mueller releases a final report before declassifying it. Then, we’ll have a fine constitutional crisis as the two sides vie for some sort of adjudication. Who, for instance, will adjudicate the monkey business that is already on-the-record involving misdeeds in the Department of Justice itself? Will the DOJ split into two contesting camps, each charging the other? How might that work? Does the Acting Attorney General Mr. Whitaker seek indictments against figures such as Bruce Ohr, Andrew McCabe, Peter Strzok, et al. Will he also rope in intel cowboys John Brennan and James Clapper? Might Hillary find herself in jeopardy — all the while on the other side Mr. Mueller pursues his targets, characters like Mr. Manafort, Michael Cohen, and the hapless Carter Page?

    Or might Mr. Mueller, and others, possibly find themselves in trouble, as spearheads of a bad-faith campaign to weaponize government agencies against a sitting president? That might sound outlandish, but the evidence is adding up. In fact the evidence of a Deep State gone rogue is far more compelling than any charges Mr. Mueller has so far produced on Trump-Russia “collusion.” An example of bad faith is former FBI Director James Comey’s current campaign to avoid testifying in closed session before the House Judiciary and Oversight committees — he filed a motion just before Thanksgiving. Mr. Comey is pretending that an open session would be “transparent


    Was that satire?
    There's always a grain of satire in Kunstler's writing but generally, right or wrong, the man speaks his mind.  I don't totally subscribe to everything he say but, as I said, he does present points of view I believe are worth considering.  He challenges some of my potentially knee jerk thinking on some issues.  I like that kind of challenge. 

    I don't see things like the collusion issue as black and white.  I don't see a strict party line division.  I think both sides have some real issues that need addressing.  More so the Republican party, yes, but Dems too, without a doubt. 
    I value your opinion Brian, but that article was deep state conspiracy at its finest. 
    Thank you, Nancy. 

    Like I said, I don't believe everything Kunstler writes.  But on the other hand, I've followed him in books and his blog for quite sometime and he isn't always wrong either.  But the main point is twofold:  One, that we really don't know all that is behind all this and pretending we do is an iffy proposition, and two: the truth very likely is not exactly like any picture we have been painted and viewing all of those picture with some skepticism is, I believe, wise.
    You are very welcome Brian,

    I agree that whatever is being investigated goes far beyond anything that we've discussed. And the more sources that one accesses, the more well formed their viewpoint can be. And when we are diligent in our research, there are some theories that just don't stand up to the evidence out there. If there were a major way to besmirch and bring down the Obama administration and ruin his legacy forever, Trump would have played that card by now. He is too eager to make Obama responsible for all things 'bad' and to erase him from the history books. I do not believe that he has the emotional intelligence that would allow him to hold off on something that huge. If I am proven wrong, I will admit it. 

    my2hands said:
    Funny how progressives love & trust the CIA all of the sudden...

    Some people like being presented information/opinions that aligns with the narrative they prefer... some people like to be presented with information/opinions that challenge their beliefs and opinions. 

    BS has been saying for 18 months exactly what that article says, i think it's interesting to consider. Thanks for posting it B-Lux


    I don't understand why you think that people are not aware of  all of the theories and information that is available to the general public. We are a mostly intelligent, well read bunch of people here. Disagreement does not equal group think. It is how one forms an opinion. 

    Again, if I"m wrong, I'll admit it. But just because someone presents an opinion doesn't mean that one must agree. And disagreeing with certain theories and sources is what well informed people do. 

    And the CIA? Whatever.



    * I had to delete some of the thread because it was too long - the entire article is in previous posts. 
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 16,019
    Didnt say people are not aware... didnt say people werent well read or intelligent... didnt say you were wrong... didnt say people had to agree... none if tgat has anything to do with what i said, no need to get defensive everytime i make a point

    You call it disagreement... thats pretty much bs... any alternative narrative that gets presented here is almost immediately shouted down as quackery, tin foil conspiracy, satire, or whatever... that's a little different than disagreement, that's dismissal 

    Brian is about as progressive as it gets... and due to his years of wisdom likely has a healthy distrust of USA intelligence services and "official" narratives, so i take notice when he posts something contrary to the mainstream narrative
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 25,344
    njnancy said:
    brianlux said:
    njnancy said:
    brianlux said:
    dignin said:
    brianlux said:
    Here, for example, is the latest take on this whole mess from James Howard Kunstler.  Now, I'll be the first to admit that Mr. Kunstler is not always correct in his summation of various matters of which he writes.  However, what he does do is present plausible alternatives to party-line reactions that many of us latch on to in hopes of seeing Trump derailed- and that is understandable, but I do believe often impetuous.

    "Watergate had tragic Shakespearean overtones, with Nixon as King Lear, but Russia-Gate — perhaps the last gate America goes through on its giant slalom run to collapse — is but a Chinese Fire Drill writ large. The reason? In 1973, we were still a serious people. Today, the most lavishly credentialed elite in history believe the most preposterous “stories,” or, surely even worse, pretend to believe them for political advantage.

    Now, an epic battle of wills is setting up as Robert Mueller’s investigation concludes its business and its primary target, the Golden Golem of Greatness, girds his loins to push back. Behind the flimsy scrim of Russia collusion accusations stands a bewildering maze of criminal mischief by a matrix of federal agencies that lost control of their own dark operation to meddle in the 2016 election. The US intel community (CIA, NSA, FBI, etc), with the Department of Justice, all colluded with the Hillary Clinton campaign and the intel agencies of the UK and Australia, to derail Mr. Trump as a stooge of Russia and, when he shocked them by getting elected, mounted a desperate campaign to cover their asses knowing he had become their boss. The Obama White House was involved in all this, attempting to cloak itself in plausible deniability, which may be unwinding now, too. How might all this play out from here?

    One big mystery is how long will Mr. Trump wait to declassify any number of secret files, memoranda, and communications that he’s been sitting on for months. My guess is that this stuff amounts to a potent weapon against his adversaries and he will wait until Mr. Mueller releases a final report before declassifying it. Then, we’ll have a fine constitutional crisis as the two sides vie for some sort of adjudication. Who, for instance, will adjudicate the monkey business that is already on-the-record involving misdeeds in the Department of Justice itself? Will the DOJ split into two contesting camps, each charging the other? How might that work? Does the Acting Attorney General Mr. Whitaker seek indictments against figures such as Bruce Ohr, Andrew McCabe, Peter Strzok, et al. Will he also rope in intel cowboys John Brennan and James Clapper? Might Hillary find herself in jeopardy — all the while on the other side Mr. Mueller pursues his targets, characters like Mr. Manafort, Michael Cohen, and the hapless Carter Page?

    Or might Mr. Mueller, and others, possibly find themselves in trouble, as spearheads of a bad-faith campaign to weaponize government agencies against a sitting president? That might sound outlandish, but the evidence is adding up. In fact the evidence of a Deep State gone rogue is far more compelling than any charges Mr. Mueller has so far produced on Trump-Russia “collusion.” An example of bad faith is former FBI Director James Comey’s current campaign to avoid testifying in closed session before the House Judiciary and Oversight committees — he filed a motion just before Thanksgiving. Mr. Comey is pretending that an open session would be “transparent


    Was that satire?
    There's always a grain of satire in Kunstler's writing but generally, right or wrong, the man speaks his mind.  I don't totally subscribe to everything he say but, as I said, he does present points of view I believe are worth considering.  He challenges some of my potentially knee jerk thinking on some issues.  I like that kind of challenge. 

    I don't see things like the collusion issue as black and white.  I don't see a strict party line division.  I think both sides have some real issues that need addressing.  More so the Republican party, yes, but Dems too, without a doubt. 
    I value your opinion Brian, but that article was deep state conspiracy at its finest. 
    Thank you, Nancy. 

    Like I said, I don't believe everything Kunstler writes.  But on the other hand, I've followed him in books and his blog for quite sometime and he isn't always wrong either.  But the main point is twofold:  One, that we really don't know all that is behind all this and pretending we do is an iffy proposition, and two: the truth very likely is not exactly like any picture we have been painted and viewing all of those picture with some skepticism is, I believe, wise.
    You are very welcome Brian,

    I agree that whatever is being investigated goes far beyond anything that we've discussed. And the more sources that one accesses, the more well formed their viewpoint can be. And when we are diligent in our research, there are some theories that just don't stand up to the evidence out there. If there were a major way to besmirch and bring down the Obama administration and ruin his legacy forever, Trump would have played that card by now. He is too eager to make Obama responsible for all things 'bad' and to erase him from the history books. I do not believe that he has the emotional intelligence that would allow him to hold off on something that huge. If I am proven wrong, I will admit it. 

    my2hands said:
    Funny how progressives love & trust the CIA all of the sudden...

    Some people like being presented information/opinions that aligns with the narrative they prefer... some people like to be presented with information/opinions that challenge their beliefs and opinions. 

    BS has been saying for 18 months exactly what that article says, i think it's interesting to consider. Thanks for posting it B-Lux


    I don't understand why you think that people are not aware of  all of the theories and information that is available to the general public. We are a mostly intelligent, well read bunch of people here. Disagreement does not equal group think. It is how one forms an opinion. 

    Again, if I"m wrong, I'll admit it. But just because someone presents an opinion doesn't mean that one must agree. And disagreeing with certain theories and sources is what well informed people do. 

    And the CIA? Whatever.



    * I had to delete some of the thread because it was too long - the entire article is in previous posts. 
    No need to take offense, Nancy.  I don't think any of us, me included, are well informed on politics because we can't be.  A lot of what passes for political information is smoke screens, bullshit and nonsense.  That's why I suggest reading widely, being very skeptical, and then still be willing to admit that none of us really has a clear picture of what is behind all this convoluted brouhaha.   That's why it is so much easier to discuss environmental issues- you can generally count on scientists being a lot more pragmatic and unbiased than politicians and pundits.  
    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 25,344
    my2hands said:
    Didnt say people are not aware... didnt say people werent well read or intelligent... didnt say you were wrong... didnt say people had to agree... none if tgat has anything to do with what i said, no need to get defensive everytime i make a point

    You call it disagreement... thats pretty much bs... any alternative narrative that gets presented here is almost immediately shouted down as quackery, tin foil conspiracy, satire, or whatever... that's a little different than disagreement, that's dismissal 

    Brian is about as progressive as it gets... and due to his years of wisdom likely has a healthy distrust of USA intelligence services and "official" narratives, so i take notice when he posts something contrary to the mainstream narrative
    Thank you m2h... but be skeptical of me too.  I've been know to espouse some bullshit.  :lol:  But I try to avoid doing so.  I'm learning.  We're all learning.
    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • njnancynjnancy Northern New JerseyPosts: 3,509
    brianlux said:
    njnancy said:
    brianlux said:
    njnancy said:
    brianlux said:
    dignin said:
    brianlux said:
    Here, for example, is the latest take on this whole mess from James Howard Kunstler.  Now, I'll be the first to admit that Mr. Kunstler is not always correct in his summation of various matters of which he writes.  However, what he does do is present plausible alternatives to party-line reactions that many of us latch on to in hopes of seeing Trump derailed- and that is understandable, but I do believe often impetuous.

    "Watergate had tragic Shakespearean overtones, with Nixon as King Lear, but Russia-Gate — perhaps the last gate America goes through on its giant slalom run to collapse — is but a Chinese Fire Drill writ large. The reason? In 1973, we were still a serious people. Today, the most lavishly credentialed elite in history believe the most preposterous “stories,” or, surely even worse, pretend to believe them for political advantage.

    Now, an epic battle of wills is setting up as Robert Mueller’s investigation concludes its business and its primary target, the Golden Golem of Greatness, girds his loins to push back. Behind the flimsy scrim of Russia collusion accusations stands a bewildering maze of criminal mischief by a matrix of federal agencies that lost control of their own dark operation to meddle in the 2016 election. The US intel community (CIA, NSA, FBI, etc), with the Department of Justice, all colluded with the Hillary Clinton campaign and the intel agencies of the UK and Australia, to derail Mr. Trump as a stooge of Russia and, when he shocked them by getting elected, mounted a desperate campaign to cover their asses knowing he had become their boss. The Obama White House was involved in all this, attempting to cloak itself in plausible deniability, which may be unwinding now, too. How might all this play out from here?

    One big mystery is how long will Mr. Trump wait to declassify any number of secret files, memoranda, and communications that he’s been sitting on for months. My guess is that this stuff amounts to a potent weapon against his adversaries and he will wait until Mr. Mueller releases a final report before declassifying it. Then, we’ll have a fine constitutional crisis as the two sides vie for some sort of adjudication. Who, for instance, will adjudicate the monkey business that is already on-the-record involving misdeeds in the Department of Justice itself? Will the DOJ split into two contesting camps, each charging the other? How might that work? Does the Acting Attorney General Mr. Whitaker seek indictments 

    Was that satire?
    There's always a grain of satire in Kunstler's writing but generally, right or wrong, the man speaks his mind.  I don't totally subscribe to everything he say but, as I said, he does present points of view I believe are worth considering.  He challenges some of my potentially knee jerk thinking on some issues.  I like that kind of challenge. 

    I don't see things like the collusion issue as black and white.  I don't see a strict party line division.  I think both sides have some real issues that need addressing.  More so the Republican party, yes, but Dems too, without a doubt. 
    I value your opinion Brian, but that article was deep state conspiracy at its finest. 
    Thank you, Nancy. 

    Like I said, I don't believe everything Kunstler writes.  But on the other hand, I've followed him in books and his blog for quite sometime and he isn't always wrong either.  But the main point is twofold:  One, that we really don't know all that is behind all this and pretending we do is an iffy proposition, and two: the truth very likely is not exactly like any picture we have been painted and viewing all of those picture with some skepticism is, I believe, wise.
    You are very welcome Brian,

    I agree that whatever is being investigated goes far beyond anything that we've discussed. And the more sources that one accesses, the more well formed their viewpoint can be. And when we are diligent in our research, there are some theories that just don't stand up to the evidence out there. If there were a major way to besmirch and bring down the Obama administration and ruin his legacy forever, Trump would have played that card by now. He is too eager to make Obama responsible for all things 'bad' and to erase him from the history books. I do not believe that he has the emotional intelligence that would allow him to hold off on something that huge. If I am proven wrong, I will admit it. 

    my2hands said:
    Funny how progressives love & trust the CIA all of the sudden...

    Some people like being presented information/opinions that aligns with the narrative they prefer... some people like to be presented with information/opinions that challenge their beliefs and opinions. 

    BS has been saying for 18 months exactly what that article says, i think it's interesting to consider. Thanks for posting it B-Lux


    I don't understand why you think that people are not aware of  all of the theories and information that is available to the general public. We are a mostly intelligent, well read bunch of people here. Disagreement does not equal group think. It is how one forms an opinion. 

    Again, if I"m wrong, I'll admit it. But just because someone presents an opinion doesn't mean that one must agree. And disagreeing with certain theories and sources is what well informed people do. 

    And the CIA? Whatever.



    * I had to delete some of the thread because it was too long - the entire article is in previous posts. 
    No need to take offense, Nancy.  I don't think any of us, me included, are well informed on politics because we can't be.  A lot of what passes for political information is smoke screens, bullshit and nonsense.  That's why I suggest reading widely, being very skeptical, and then still be willing to admit that none of us really has a clear picture of what is behind all this convoluted brouhaha.   That's why it is so much easier to discuss environmental issues- you can generally count on scientists being a lot more pragmatic and unbiased than politicians and pundits.  
    Not offended by you at all Brian.

    Now, environmental issues are based on facts. People can decide they don't like the facts - but science is a great equalizer.

    Politics is much more subjective. I went to college for journalism so I am fascinated with politics and read whatever i can about the main issues and the issues that are not being given enough coverage. I agree that since I am not doing the reporting, then I can only rely on what is being presented to me. And there are so many avenues to access information these days that it can be overwhelming. 

    I appreciate being able to read the article you posted and your background on the source. :smile:
  • njnancynjnancy Northern New JerseyPosts: 3,509
    my2hands said:
    Didnt say people are not aware... didnt say people werent well read or intelligent... didnt say you were wrong... didnt say people had to agree... none if tgat has anything to do with what i said, no need to get defensive everytime i make a point

    You call it disagreement... thats pretty much bs... any alternative narrative that gets presented here is almost immediately shouted down as quackery, tin foil conspiracy, satire, or whatever... that's a little different than disagreement, that's dismissal 

    Brian is about as progressive as it gets... and due to his years of wisdom likely has a healthy distrust of USA intelligence services and "official" narratives, so i take notice when he posts something contrary to the mainstream narrative
    I don't want to have this back and forth with you all the time. Seriously. And, again, I'm not defensive. I know I am not the only person you are speaking about in your post(s). 

    You come across as having a greater grasp on the facts than the rest of us sheep and you have adopted this attitude in numerous threads. 

    It makes it very difficult to get to know who you really are in a conversation when you are always being contrary. 

    That is all.  I have no specific 'thing' about you. I don't know you. It's in what you post and how it comes across. But we've been here before so I'll just let it be. 
  • dignindignin Posts: 6,634
    Image result for mueller american hero

  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 7,066
    edited December 1
    my2hands said:
    Two sides to every story...

    Democrats still think the "random" 20 minute private tarmac meeting between Bill Clinton and the AG Loretta Lynch in charge of investigating his wife and democratic nominee was totally coincidental and no big deal??? Yeah, i'm sure they discussed West Virginia coal and related policies (how gullible do they think we are?)

    Denial is a beautiful river
    There’s no evidence of the deep state theory that Brian’s article rederenced.It’s basically building a defense narrative for when the poop hits the fan. It’s understandable because the right has to come up with something or otherwise admit the enormous mistake that trump is. The latter will only be done by a few at this point. 
  • dignindignin Posts: 6,634
    brianlux said:
    dignin said:
    brianlux said:
    Here, for example, is the latest take on this whole mess from James Howard Kunstler.  Now, I'll be the first to admit that Mr. Kunstler is not always correct in his summation of various matters of which he writes.  However, what he does do is present plausible alternatives to party-line reactions that many of us latch on to in hopes of seeing Trump derailed- and that is understandable, but I do believe often impetuous.

    "Watergate had tragic Shakespearean overtones, with Nixon as King Lear, but Russia-Gate — perhaps the last gate America goes through on its giant slalom run to collapse — is but a Chinese Fire Drill writ large. The reason? In 1973, we were still a serious people. Today, the most lavishly credentialed elite in history believe the most preposterous “stories,” or, surely even worse, pretend to believe them for political advantage.

    Now, an epic battle of wills is setting up as Robert Mueller’s investigation concludes its business and its primary target, the Golden Golem of Greatness, girds his loins to push back. Behind the flimsy scrim of Russia collusion accusations stands a bewildering maze of criminal mischief by a matrix of federal agencies that lost control of their own dark operation to meddle in the 2016 election. The US intel community (CIA, NSA, FBI, etc), with the Department of Justice, all colluded with the Hillary Clinton campaign and the intel agencies of the UK and Australia, to derail Mr. Trump as a stooge of Russia and, when he shocked them by getting elected, mounted a desperate campaign to cover their asses knowing he had become their boss. The Obama White House was involved in all this, attempting to cloak itself in plausible deniability, which may be unwinding now, too. How might all this play out from here?

    One big mystery is how long will Mr. Trump wait to declassify any number of secret files, memoranda, and communications that he’s been sitting on for months. My guess is that this stuff amounts to a potent weapon against his adversaries and he will wait until Mr. Mueller releases a final report before declassifying it. Then, we’ll have a fine constitutional crisis as the two sides vie for some sort of adjudication. Who, for instance, will adjudicate the monkey business that is already on-the-record involving misdeeds in the Department of Justice itself? Will the DOJ split into two contesting camps, each charging the other? How might that work? Does the Acting Attorney General Mr. Whitaker seek indictments against figures such as Bruce Ohr, Andrew McCabe, Peter Strzok, et al. Will he also rope in intel cowboys John Brennan and James Clapper? Might Hillary find herself in jeopardy — all the while on the other side Mr. Mueller pursues his targets, characters like Mr. Manafort, Michael Cohen, and the hapless Carter Page?

    Or might Mr. Mueller, and others, possibly find themselves in trouble, as spearheads of a bad-faith campaign to weaponize government agencies against a sitting president? That might sound outlandish, but the evidence is adding up. In fact the evidence of a Deep State gone rogue is far more compelling than any charges Mr. Mueller has so far produced on Trump-Russia “collusion.” An example of bad faith is former FBI Director James Comey’s current campaign to avoid testifying in closed session before the House Judiciary and Oversight committees — he filed a motion just before Thanksgiving. Mr. Comey is pretending that an open session would be “transparent.” His claim is mendacious. If he were questioned about classified matters in an open session, he would do exactly what he did before in open session: decline to answer about “sensitive” matters on the basis of national security. He could make no such claims in a closed session. The truth is, his attorneys are trying to run out the clock on the current composition of the house committees, which will come under a Democrat majority in January, so that Mr. Comey can avoid testifying altogether.

    There are other dicey matters awaiting some kind of adjudication elsewhere. For instance, who is going to review the chain of decisions among the FISA judges who approved of warrants made in bad faith to spy on US citizens? Perhaps the shrinking violet, Mr. Huber, out in the Utah Prosecutor’s Office of the DOJ, is looking into all that. He’s been at something for most of the year (nobody knows what). He has to answer to Mr. Whitaker now, or the permanent AG who replaces him. And why is Mr. Trump dragging his heels on nominating a permanent AG? I suppose the FISA court matter will fall to the Supreme Court, but how does that process work, and how long might it take?

    The potential for a stand-off exists that will confound any effort to untangle these things, and I can see how that might lead to an extraordinary crisis in which Mr. Trump has to declare some form of emergency or perhaps martial law to clean out this suppurating abscess of illegality and sedition. That can only be the last and worst resort, but what if the US judicial system just can’t manage to clean up the mess it has made?"


    http://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nation/deep-quandaries-of-the-deep-state/



    Was that satire?
    There's always a grain of satire in Kunstler's writing but generally, right or wrong, the man speaks his mind.  I don't totally subscribe to everything he say but, as I said, he does present points of view I believe are worth considering.  He challenges some of my potentially knee jerk thinking on some issues.  I like that kind of challenge. 

    I don't see things like the collusion issue as black and white.  I don't see a strict party line division.  I think both sides have some real issues that need addressing.  More so the Republican party, yes, but Dems too, without a doubt. 
    But this isn't a both sides issue. Mueller isn't on a Dem or Repub side. Mueller is on the side of justice. 

    The writer has obviously bought into some real far out conspiracy stuff, based in no reality. I can't take the piece seriously.
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 16,019
    Robert Mueller built the hospital he was born in
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 16,019
    Frankly, the establishment and aligned intelligence services actively working to prevent someone like Trump from becoming POTUS is hardly "far out conspiracy"

    To think differently is a naive in my opinion
  • dignindignin Posts: 6,634
    my2hands said:
    Frankly, the establishment and aligned intelligence services actively working to prevent someone like Trump from becoming POTUS is hardly "far out conspiracy"

    To think differently is a naive in my opinion
    Oh yeah? Where's the evidence?
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 17,409
    my2hands said:
    Frankly, the establishment and aligned intelligence services actively working to prevent someone like Trump from becoming POTUS is hardly "far out conspiracy"

    To think differently is a naive in my opinion
    If that were the case, why wasn’t the Russia collusion investigation made public before the election, Holmes? The repubs have controlled Congress for the past six years and have had subpoena power. Do you really think they’d sit on their hands if they had an honest opportunity to destroy Hillary and Obama with this deep state shit? That’s naive to say the least. You see, one side, justice, is based in provable facts, like what you find in a court of law. The other side is peddling conspiracy theories with no basis in facts. If they were dealing in facts, we wouldn’t be where we are today and Team Trump Treason wouldn’t be saying shit like:

    There was no collusion.”
    ”I don’t know any Russians.”
    ”I have nothing to hide.”
    ”I’ll sit down and talk to anyone.”
    ”We do everything by the book.”
    “Only the guilty plea the fifth.”
    “Very legal, very cool.”

    And what of BS’ theories have been borne out in the past 18 months? Disappearing headlines? Fruit from the poisonous tree? How Hillary and company will be indicted? Obama too?

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  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 16,019
    dignin said:
    my2hands said:
    Frankly, the establishment and aligned intelligence services actively working to prevent someone like Trump from becoming POTUS is hardly "far out conspiracy"

    To think differently is a naive in my opinion
    Oh yeah? Where's the evidence?
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/fbi-agent-peter-strzok-fired-over-anti-trump-texts/2018/08/13/be98f84c-8e8b-11e8-b769-e3fff17f0689_story.html
  • njnancynjnancy Northern New JerseyPosts: 3,509
    my2hands said:
    dignin said:
    my2hands said:
    Frankly, the establishment and aligned intelligence services actively working to prevent someone like Trump from becoming POTUS is hardly "far out conspiracy"

    To think differently is a naive in my opinion
    Oh yeah? Where's the evidence?
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/fbi-agent-peter-strzok-fired-over-anti-trump-texts/2018/08/13/be98f84c-8e8b-11e8-b769-e3fff17f0689_story.html
    You're kidding. 
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 9,023
    Evidence?

    ”lol” 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 16,019
    njnancy said:
    my2hands said:
    dignin said:
    my2hands said:
    Frankly, the establishment and aligned intelligence services actively working to prevent someone like Trump from becoming POTUS is hardly "far out conspiracy"

    To think differently is a naive in my opinion
    Oh yeah? Where's the evidence?
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/fbi-agent-peter-strzok-fired-over-anti-trump-texts/2018/08/13/be98f84c-8e8b-11e8-b769-e3fff17f0689_story.html
    You're kidding. 
    Um, no.

    He was the lead agent in the Russia investigation and was also heavily involved in the Hillary investigation. He had an open bias against Trump and Trump getting elected and this was proven by texts... Mueller was forced to kick him off the investigation... 

    The lead investigator in the Russian investigation, who was also involved with the Clinton investigation, was found to be openly anti-trump and anti-trump getting elected. He was the lead investigator of the domestic intelligence/law enforcement agency for the russian investigation.

    It's not my fault my friends on the left refuse to acknowledge reality on this

    You guys might want to refresh your memory on the CIA, FBI, NSA, etc... not exactly historically honest brokers

    This is not a defense of Trump... this is trying to keep an open mind and consider everything... i'm supposed to start trusting the CIA and agreeing with Bill Kristol & George Will all of the sudden? Pardon me for being cautious and skeptical 
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