Refute Anna's post all you want, but how about refraining from attacking her on such personal levels?
Wait, how? In that case I am sorry, ofcourse.
Come on, man.
Go back and read your discourse with her. It's fine to be passionate, but I just wish you would recognize when you become too aggressive. What she presented was legitimate in this context and you brushed it aside without considering its relevancy... and then proceeded to belittle her in a number of ways to the point she chose to exit the discussion (and you still chased her tossing insults).
Will re-read. Thank you.
Remind me, what was legitimate in this context though? if you have it fresh in memory.
Voter mentality.
What?
Re-read what she has already contributed. I'm not presenting her point in a different way.
I don't know what "voter mentality" has to do with if there are a source for "many" people moving from Sweden because of political reasons (or being harassed for being Jewish) and this "many" being numbers great enough to affect the election by mail votes.
The growth of conservative values is what I got from her submissions.
But I'm asking about - where the sources are that state that people have moved from Sweden because of the politics (or being harassed which was stated later). And that this would be numbers big enough to sway the election by their mail votes.
A general growth of conservative values (in or outside Sweden) has nothing to do with that.
I hadn't realized the discussion had boiled down to such a finite level. I thought that in a thread such as this... the development of voters' mentalities would be completely relevant (and what implications this growth might have for this election and even more importantly... future elections). Anna's contribution was helpful to me trying to understand Sweden and its current social landscape.
Let's come back to my original post though: I'm not professing to be an expert on Sweden. I'm professing to have come across bad manners. I appreciate your willingness and eagerness to share what's going on in your country right now, but I can't say I appreciated your lack of respect for Anna in the last exchanges.
When discussing one thing, you discuss that thing. I discussed that thing and asked for answers to this thing. Things being irreverent to that thing being posted is irrelevant to the the discussing about that thing. Even if you get something out of that irrelevant thing. Maybe you should re-read the conversation too?
But I see what you're saying is (and I will in the future try to live up to that, if I failed ITT):
Three factors being undecided after the election: The late foreign voices, Sunday's voices from premature seats and votes wrongly void.
Wednesday's late votes is expected to be more in this year's election and the votes rejected in the preliminary vote are record high this year.
More than 20,000 previous invalid votes are expected to be approved at the latest on Friday - and can determine the balance of power in the Parlaiment.
Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
Regarding the different parties -- right-winged party The Moderates don't seem to have that much problems working with racist pals in The Swedish Democrates. Before The Swedish Democrates even was a factor in Swedish politics, there was a big story before an election (2006 I think) here in Sweden about the xenophobia existing within The Moderates. On a national level they has said they will not seek support from SD though:
SD and the Moderates in Malmö City are very close. After a brief meeting with the moderate man, Torbjörn Tegnhammar, SD's leading Malmö politician has this review:
"I think Torbjörn is a sensible young man. There are many questions that we share the same opinion about. Security issues and making Malmö safer, just to mention some where we have approximate consensus, says Magnus Olsson, (SD).
Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
In a post on Facebook, Ulf Kristersson (The Moderates leader) today presented a chart and a few calculations. He claims that the Alliance's government options are the strongest.
"At the time of writing, it appears that the two government parties plus the Left Party are slightly bigger than the Alliance. That does not mean that they have a stronger government alternative, as it has so far been clear that Social Democrats do not intend to reign with the Left Party, "he writes.
In the published chart, the Left Party has also got its own bar and is not included in the red-green government alternative.
He also writes that one must now wait for the final election result.
Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
What relevance does this have to people moving/living abroad?
Would like to know what "many" constitutes, with you stating that "many" has moved away from sweden and you are also stating that these jews and other Swedes moving abroad would be voting blue? Show me numbers on this, Aftonbladet states that if the voting abroad is similiar to in 2014 it will not affect the results.
Seems like you just blurt out (biased) things without any real knowledge of or information on the matter?
In that case, it seems both unnecessary and very much something from the far-right/Trump playbook -- "people are saying..."
We will just have to wait and see, I could be wrong and you could be right.
Garry Kasparov, the Russian dissident living in exile and Chess Grand Champion (As well as democracy advocate, human rights advocate, etc), has described in his books and interviews how despots and tyrants operate not by necessarily promoting their version of the truth, but more so by promoting that there is no truth. This is a point that Kasparov routinely argues about Putin and the Kremlin, that they're not interested in telling you what's true and what's false, they're interested in making you believe that "nobody really knows what's true and what's false... Some say this, some say that, who really knows?"
When stating things as facts (as in, X and Y will happen because many people are moving from Sweden because of the politics of our last government) I think it would be better if it could be backed up - in some way. - Instead of falling back on basically "What I stated could somehow be true... therefore it can be stated as being true" (as Kelly-Anne and the Kremlin does).
Just comes off as heavily biased and based on nothing, instead of the reality which should be the aim when stating things as facts.
Back on track --
-- Today the votes from abroad and other late votes should come in, I think they're expecting 200k votes. And votes from abroad usually have a blue (right-winged) slant. So seats in Parliment can shift today.
From Aftonbladet:
The Alliance will try to remove Stefan Löfven from his post as Prime minister on September 24, party leaders announced at DN Debatt (big newspaper in Sweden).
At the same time, they invite The Social Democrats (Löfvens party) to talks - and establishes that collaboration with The Swedish Democrats is still excluded.
"We want to build an Alliance government on cross-border cooperation," writes the Alliance leaders.
Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
According to K-G, it would be "a big sensation" if the Social Democrats were to join the Alliance's collaborative invite - but:
"On the other hand, the Alliance has been a little smart and said it wants a deal on individual issues. And given that the Alliance during the Social Democratic regime last mandate accepted 26 such agreements, as Stefan Löfven has bragged about, he would find it difficult, by definition, to just say no to negotiate individual issues in the Parliament. That would be the most challenging one.
Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
Aftonbladet has spoken with sources in the Social Democrats about how they react to the Alliance's invitation.
Several emphasize that Stefan Löfven has repeatedly stretched out a hand over the aisle, but also reminds of his words in connection with a debate, to support an alliance government that is smaller than the red-green.
"Not a chance," he replied to straight question by Annie Lööf (C).
The fact that the Alliance's invitation comes today interprets a Social Democratic source as proof that the right-winged party leaders are pressured. In the afternoon the voting is expected to be finshed and a final election result can be determined.
"It shows that they are stressed," says an S-source.
"They want to hurry and hold a press conference before voting is finished because they believe they lose the backing of their voters thereafter, if they are still smaller than us.
Social Democrats are expected to comment on the Alliance's message after the press conference.
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
The Alliance is holding a press conference right now.
EDIT: Nothing new said. Waiting for The Social Democrats comment on it.
I'm starting to think that The Alliance parties rhetoric of equating The Left Party to the The Sweden Democrats pre-election will be a way to defend them agreeing to support by The Sweden Democrats when The Social Democrats go to The Left Party.
And should be noted that The Left party is not an extreme party or anything. But right-winged politicians have lumped them together with The Sweden Democrats lately when talking as "both sides of the extreme".
Former Minister of Justice Thomas Bodström, believes that in the end The Christian Democrats and The Moderates will form a government with the backing of The Swedish Democrats - and The Center Party and The Liberals will not officially be part of the government, to save face (due to them saying they would never rely on the support of SD), but be supporting parties to that government.
Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
The Prime Minister Stefan Löfven is holding a press conference, as a response to The Alliance press conference held earlier today:
- There are many who talk about the humility that is required, humility for me is about waiting for the final election results," says Löfven.
- It is now said that the mandate distribution in parliament as elected by the electorate does not determine government formation," says Löfven, saying it is undemocratic and illogical that the right-winged block (The Alliance) should rule when they are smaller than the red-green.
- I understand that the Swedish people see this as absurd, it is a sign of block-politics making things dumver. that's why it has to be buried, all other options are being paralyzed, "says Löfven.
- The negotiations will not work if they are strictly between the blocks, negotiations must be done between parties, we have to put the game aside and act for Sweden's well. Swedish democracy is robust and goes its way.
- He finds it strange that the Alliance does not see that the S + MP, supported by V, is a viable government alternative.
- If we are to stick to the block politics, it can not be the smaller alternative that forms government," repeats Stefan Löfven.
- Stefan Löfven is clear that S will not be a backing party for the Alliance.
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
The speaker will have four tries to get a government elected in parliament, after that a new election must be held.
The Allience (143 seats) say they will try, and has invited The Social Democrats for talks on supporting them. This has been turned down, and that was expected.
The Social Democrats together with The Green Party (the present government) with support by the Left Party (144 seats) has invited parties of The Allience to talks. The Parties has declined this, and do not want to break up The Allience (yet).
The Swedish Democrats (62 seats) are shut out of the discussion - presently.
So it will be hard for either block to pass a government through parliament.
So, something else will have to be worked. People are worried about The Christian Democrats and The Moderates forming a government, with support from The Swedish Democrats and their The Allience-party friends.
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
So it seems to me that the whole Swedish anti-immigration explosion is the main issue in this election.... I've seen TONS of racist/xenophobic/anti-immigration sentiments coming out of Sweden for the past few years, and it's been concerning to me for a while. Of all countries, I thought Sweden would be able to find the common sense to avoid this, or, if not avoid the sentiments, to have the common sense to know that such sentiments won't be effectively answered by turning to super right wing politics. It makes me very sad... I've always considered the Swedes to be more enlightened than many other nationalities, and I think I was right.... until recently. It sucks to see nations like the USA and Sweden and many others moving backwards (including Canada), and it all really seems to boil down to people not having enough empathy or open-mindedness or patience to move forward with increasing diversity and whatever bumps may come in that road.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
The leader of The Moderats was given the task by the speaker of parliament to try to form a government. He has failed. Two of the parties in their little coalition "The Allience" don't have a problem with being supported by the racist party. Two of the parties refuse.
So now the speaker will give former Prime Minister Stefan Löfven the chance to find a government solution.
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
The Social Democrates (S) together with The Green Party (MP) (the former government) have reached a deal with The Centre Party (C) and The Liberals (L) - where S and Mp will stay in government but has made big concessions to please C and L - the biggest being less security for workers in favor of the employer and giving landlords the option to set whatever rent they want for new apartments (this has not been allowed in Sweden, having strong regulations to keep rents down).
This government needs to be backed by The Left Party (V) though to get through parliament -- and that is now the question. WIll they accept a government running which such right winged politics, and being shut out of the discussion and labeled an extremist party by the right winged parties? Better than a fully right winged option -- but still a shitty option.
Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
I'll stick with first past the post, thank you. I like to know who my representation is and PM/Premier is going to be sometime shortly after the polls close.
I'll stick with first past the post, thank you. I like to know who my representation is and PM/Premier is going to be sometime shortly after the polls close.
Who doesn't like to know that?
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
I'll stick with first past the post, thank you. I like to know who my representation is and PM/Premier is going to be sometime shortly after the polls close.
Who doesn't like to know that?
Apparently, Sweden if months after an election you are still trying to figure out the government.
Comments
But I see what you're saying is (and I will in the future try to live up to that, if I failed ITT):
Thanks for figuring out what I was getting at. And don't be too rough on yourself- I've needed these reminders myself. All is good.
"At the time of writing, it appears that the two government parties plus the Left Party are slightly bigger than the Alliance. That does not mean that they have a stronger government alternative, as it has so far been clear that Social Democrats do not intend to reign with the Left Party, "he writes.
In the published chart, the Left Party has also got its own bar and is not included in the red-green government alternative. He also writes that one must now wait for the final election result.
Are you hoping for The Alliance or a Red-Green option?
haha.
Happend upon this on another forum:
Garry Kasparov, the Russian dissident living in exile and Chess Grand Champion (As well as democracy advocate, human rights advocate, etc), has described in his books and interviews how despots and tyrants operate not by necessarily promoting their version of the truth, but more so by promoting that there is no truth. This is a point that Kasparov routinely argues about Putin and the Kremlin, that they're not interested in telling you what's true and what's false, they're interested in making you believe that "nobody really knows what's true and what's false... Some say this, some say that, who really knows?"
When stating things as facts (as in, X and Y will happen because many people are moving from Sweden because of the politics of our last government) I think it would be better if it could be backed up - in some way. - Instead of falling back on basically "What I stated could somehow be true... therefore it can be stated as being true" (as Kelly-Anne and the Kremlin does).
Just comes off as heavily biased and based on nothing, instead of the reality which should be the aim when stating things as facts.
Back on track --
-- Today the votes from abroad and other late votes should come in, I think they're expecting 200k votes. And votes from abroad usually have a blue (right-winged) slant. So seats in Parliment can shift today.
From Aftonbladet:
The fact that the Alliance's invitation comes today interprets a Social Democratic source as proof that the right-winged party leaders are pressured. In the afternoon the voting is expected to be finshed and a final election result can be determined. "It shows that they are stressed," says an S-source. "They want to hurry and hold a press conference before voting is finished because they believe they lose the backing of their voters thereafter, if they are still smaller than us.
Social Democrats are expected to comment on the Alliance's message after the press conference.
EDIT: Nothing new said. Waiting for The Social Democrats comment on it.
I'm starting to think that The Alliance parties rhetoric of equating The Left Party to the The Sweden Democrats pre-election will be a way to defend them agreeing to support by The Sweden Democrats when The Social Democrats go to The Left Party.
And should be noted that The Left party is not an extreme party or anything. But right-winged politicians have lumped them together with The Sweden Democrats lately when talking as "both sides of the extreme".
Former Minister of Justice Thomas Bodström, believes that in the end The Christian Democrats and The Moderates will form a government with the backing of The Swedish Democrats - and The Center Party and The Liberals will not officially be part of the government, to save face (due to them saying they would never rely on the support of SD), but be supporting parties to that government.
- It is now said that the mandate distribution in parliament as elected by the electorate does not determine government formation," says Löfven, saying it is undemocratic and illogical that the right-winged block (The Alliance) should rule when they are smaller than the red-green.
- The negotiations will not work if they are strictly between the blocks, negotiations must be done between parties, we have to put the game aside and act for Sweden's well. Swedish democracy is robust and goes its way.
- If we are to stick to the block politics, it can not be the smaller alternative that forms government," repeats Stefan Löfven.
- Stefan Löfven is clear that S will not be a backing party for the Alliance.
The speaker will have four tries to get a government elected in parliament, after that a new election must be held.
The Allience (143 seats) say they will try, and has invited The Social Democrats for talks on supporting them. This has been turned down, and that was expected.
The Social Democrats together with The Green Party (the present government) with support by the Left Party (144 seats) has invited parties of The Allience to talks. The Parties has declined this, and do not want to break up The Allience (yet).
The Swedish Democrats (62 seats) are shut out of the discussion - presently.
So it will be hard for either block to pass a government through parliament.
So, something else will have to be worked. People are worried about The Christian Democrats and The Moderates forming a government, with support from The Swedish Democrats and their The Allience-party friends.
astoria 06
albany 06
hartford 06
reading 06
barcelona 06
paris 06
wembley 07
dusseldorf 07
nijmegen 07
this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
ABBA - ring ring Swedish
ABBA - ring ring English:
English/Original - Bob Dylan - Tomorrow is a long time
Swedish translation - Joakim Thåström - Men bara om min älskade väntar
astoria 06
albany 06
hartford 06
reading 06
barcelona 06
paris 06
wembley 07
dusseldorf 07
nijmegen 07
this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
Waterloo sounds better in english. Ring Ring sounds google translated into english and I prefer the Swedish version.
So now the speaker will give former Prime Minister Stefan Löfven the chance to find a government solution.
This government needs to be backed by The Left Party (V) though to get through parliament -- and that is now the question. WIll they accept a government running which such right winged politics, and being shut out of the discussion and labeled an extremist party by the right winged parties? Better than a fully right winged option -- but still a shitty option.