America's Gun Violence

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  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 28,602
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Those 17 children lost ALL their rights so that a small % can retain their right to these weapons of war.  Seems a little fucked up.  
    At which the FBI dropped the ball and the guard became a coward so there is PLENTY of blame to be thrown around.
    So did the children of Sandy Hook, the people in Las Vegas, Pulse, etc. 
    I can revisit what went wrong there too if you'd like but I'd rather stay on topic here because we've talked about them already.
    What it shows is that there is consistent, persistent control failure.  We think we have controls (tip lines, FBI call centers, Baker Act, gun cabinets), the list goes on and on.  Yet the controls fail.  When the controls fail time and again, you go back and re-think your entire philosophy of how you are trying to manage the situation, whatever it is.  The fact that you can point to break downs in the system in every situation, tells me you go to the root.  It's the semi-automatic.  This won't solve gun violence, but it certainly will reduce the scale of it.  
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,141
    PJPOWER said:
    PJPOWER said:
    tbergs said:
    Leaving it up to someone with a gun to stop a shooter, or shooters, is a crapshoot. You can get a hero type who would lay down their life when unarmed, a loose cannon type like a George Zimmerman that may shoot someone they perceived as a threat or a licensed cop milking his/her retirement who isn't in the least bit interested in taking on someone with an assault rifle. None of them are a solution to making schools safer. They're feel good responses from people who have seen too many movies where the good guy always wins under pressure. Focusing on the idea of arming more people allows for nothing to change while people get a false sense of security.

    If all airports did after 9/11 was allow more "good guys" to carry guns on planes would that have been an acceptable solution to anyone here?
    If I remember correctly, most airlines started putting armed air marshals on planes after 911...now why do you think they would do that?


    How would that be the same thing as arming teachers? Wouldn't this analogy work for you more if they started arming flight attendants? Air marshals = security guard/cop in school.


    You know what else happened after 9/11? They banned the weapon the terrorists used to seize control of the planes....

    I would be okay with airlines arming pilots and even if the flight attendants had access to a vault with a pistol carrying frangible ammunition, u?
    Nothing on your analogy not working out?
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  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 28,602
    edited February 2018
    PJPOWER said:
    PJPOWER said:
    tbergs said:
    Leaving it up to someone with a gun to stop a shooter, or shooters, is a crapshoot. You can get a hero type who would lay down their life when unarmed, a loose cannon type like a George Zimmerman that may shoot someone they perceived as a threat or a licensed cop milking his/her retirement who isn't in the least bit interested in taking on someone with an assault rifle. None of them are a solution to making schools safer. They're feel good responses from people who have seen too many movies where the good guy always wins under pressure. Focusing on the idea of arming more people allows for nothing to change while people get a false sense of security.

    If all airports did after 9/11 was allow more "good guys" to carry guns on planes would that have been an acceptable solution to anyone here?
    If I remember correctly, most airlines started putting armed air marshals on planes after 911...now why do you think they would do that?


    How would that be the same thing as arming teachers? Wouldn't this analogy work for you more if they started arming flight attendants? Air marshals = security guard/cop in school.


    You know what else happened after 9/11? They banned the weapon the terrorists used to seize control of the planes....

    I would be okay with airlines arming pilots and even if the flight attendants had access to a vault with a pistol carrying frangible ammunition, u?
    Not me... but maybe that's the difference.  I believe that handling a gun in a high stress situation is an actual specialized skill that needs to be trained and practiced consistently.  It's not something can do along with the core skills in their existing jobs.  I think these people become just as dangerous in a chaos situation.  
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    brianlux said:
    mrussel1 said:
    rgambs said:
    rgambs said:
    rgambs said:
    Ok, a teacher sacrifices his life to save students and a security cop cowered outside and the conclusion you draw is ass-backwards.
    The lesson I'm hearing is that if the security cop didn't save the day a teacher never could...uh. 
    DUH!  A teacher did!!!  How can you ignore such a doublethink??

    Is this in response to me? I'm not sure I follow
    No, a general response to mruss and my2hands and a few others who are using the cops cowardice to justify their feelings that teachers shouldn't be armed, even though a teacher laid his life on the line, unarmed.
    Are you for arming teachers then?
    I am for allowing physically fit and emotionally stable teachers to arm themselves voluntarily under strict guidelines and supervision if they have passed a thorough vetting, testing, and training program which would be an abbreviated version of police academy standards.
    My point was, how can we expect a teacher to hunt down the shooter when a trained cop was unwilling to do it.  There's a difference between protecting the children (which too many teachers have done) and acting as a tactical response unit.  I'm very supportive of having armed police in the school.  My children's district already has cops in schools.  But they train full time for these situations.  Teachers do not.  
    My wife and I agree that if teachers are armed in our school, they will be home schooled.  
    Exactly.

    There will always be some teachers that love the idea of being armed at school but most of these people just want to teach.  They have enough responsibility with that position.  Requiring them to go through training to ward off assault weapon fire is beyond their job descriptions.

    All this talk is going on while tRump and his band of idiot republicans are trying to cut education budgets wherever possible.


    I can't believe some people support this idea. It just seems to crazy to me. Teachers are underpaid to begin with, now we are going to bestow upon some of them the duty of protecting the entire school, in addition to educating these kids?

    How are we going to pay for that?

    How is the training going to be handled?

    What about the insurance/liability implications for having armed teachers walking around school grounds?

    How soon before some kid accidentally gets their hands on their teacher's loaded gun at school?


    This isn't even putting a band on the problem....to me this is pouring gasoline on a fire.


    The rest of the world is laughing at us.

    Exactly!  Or shaking their heads in disbelief.

    It blows my mind that people are actually suggested that arming teachers is the solution to the problem.  What kind of world do these people want to live in?  That kind of thinking is a direct line to "Let's just let everybody  have guns and see who is left standing".  If that's the kind of world we want then I'm damn glad I'm getting old because I want no part of it.  But then, I have nieces and nephews and grand nieces and nephews and godchildren and grand-godchildren and I don't want that world for them either so America, cool it with your obsession with guns.  It's NOT making the world a better place.
    It's not the world we want to live in, it's the world we already do live in.
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  • PJPOWERPJPOWER In Yo Face Posts: 6,499
    PJPOWER said:
    PJPOWER said:
    tbergs said:
    Leaving it up to someone with a gun to stop a shooter, or shooters, is a crapshoot. You can get a hero type who would lay down their life when unarmed, a loose cannon type like a George Zimmerman that may shoot someone they perceived as a threat or a licensed cop milking his/her retirement who isn't in the least bit interested in taking on someone with an assault rifle. None of them are a solution to making schools safer. They're feel good responses from people who have seen too many movies where the good guy always wins under pressure. Focusing on the idea of arming more people allows for nothing to change while people get a false sense of security.

    If all airports did after 9/11 was allow more "good guys" to carry guns on planes would that have been an acceptable solution to anyone here?
    If I remember correctly, most airlines started putting armed air marshals on planes after 911...now why do you think they would do that?


    How would that be the same thing as arming teachers? Wouldn't this analogy work for you more if they started arming flight attendants? Air marshals = security guard/cop in school.


    You know what else happened after 9/11? They banned the weapon the terrorists used to seize control of the planes....

    I would be okay with airlines arming pilots and even if the flight attendants had access to a vault with a pistol carrying frangible ammunition, u?
    Nothing on your analogy not working out?
    Whaaa?
  • OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MN Posts: 4,814
    mrussel1 said:
    PJPOWER said:
    PJPOWER said:
    tbergs said:
    Leaving it up to someone with a gun to stop a shooter, or shooters, is a crapshoot. You can get a hero type who would lay down their life when unarmed, a loose cannon type like a George Zimmerman that may shoot someone they perceived as a threat or a licensed cop milking his/her retirement who isn't in the least bit interested in taking on someone with an assault rifle. None of them are a solution to making schools safer. They're feel good responses from people who have seen too many movies where the good guy always wins under pressure. Focusing on the idea of arming more people allows for nothing to change while people get a false sense of security.

    If all airports did after 9/11 was allow more "good guys" to carry guns on planes would that have been an acceptable solution to anyone here?
    If I remember correctly, most airlines started putting armed air marshals on planes after 911...now why do you think they would do that?


    How would that be the same thing as arming teachers? Wouldn't this analogy work for you more if they started arming flight attendants? Air marshals = security guard/cop in school.


    You know what else happened after 9/11? They banned the weapon the terrorists used to seize control of the planes....

    I would be okay with airlines arming pilots and even if the flight attendants had access to a vault with a pistol carrying frangible ammunition, u?
    Not me... but maybe that's the difference.  I believe that handling a gun in a high stress situation is an actual specialized skill that needs to be trained and practiced consistently.  It's not something can do along with the core skills in their existing jobs.  I think these people become just as dangerous in a chaos situation.  
    Flying a plane is a very special skill, too.  I am sure there is no shortage of people who possess both, though.
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  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 28,602
    OnWis97 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJPOWER said:
    PJPOWER said:
    tbergs said:
    Leaving it up to someone with a gun to stop a shooter, or shooters, is a crapshoot. You can get a hero type who would lay down their life when unarmed, a loose cannon type like a George Zimmerman that may shoot someone they perceived as a threat or a licensed cop milking his/her retirement who isn't in the least bit interested in taking on someone with an assault rifle. None of them are a solution to making schools safer. They're feel good responses from people who have seen too many movies where the good guy always wins under pressure. Focusing on the idea of arming more people allows for nothing to change while people get a false sense of security.

    If all airports did after 9/11 was allow more "good guys" to carry guns on planes would that have been an acceptable solution to anyone here?
    If I remember correctly, most airlines started putting armed air marshals on planes after 911...now why do you think they would do that?


    How would that be the same thing as arming teachers? Wouldn't this analogy work for you more if they started arming flight attendants? Air marshals = security guard/cop in school.


    You know what else happened after 9/11? They banned the weapon the terrorists used to seize control of the planes....

    I would be okay with airlines arming pilots and even if the flight attendants had access to a vault with a pistol carrying frangible ammunition, u?
    Not me... but maybe that's the difference.  I believe that handling a gun in a high stress situation is an actual specialized skill that needs to be trained and practiced consistently.  It's not something can do along with the core skills in their existing jobs.  I think these people become just as dangerous in a chaos situation.  
    Flying a plane is a very special skill, too.  I am sure there is no shortage of people who possess both, though.
    I seriously doubt there are teacher or pilots that spend full time training to be a pilot/teacher AND tactical shooter response.  It's not possible.  
  • unsungunsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
  • unsungunsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
    Kat said:
    I think the Second Amendment should be followed exactly as the Founding Fathers intended. Everyone with a modern gun should turn it in and get a musket exactly like the ones the FF were talking about when that amendment was written. That will take care of assault rifles.

    Here's hoping the insanity will stop.
    Where is the word musket?
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,141
    edited February 2018
    unsung said:

    They're not students. They're actors, right?
    Post edited by The Juggler on
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  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 28,602
    unsung said:
    Those geniuses in LA.  The South will rise again...
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,821
    edited February 2018
    unsung said:
     Not getting your point here. Nowhere does it say that they were confused about whether it was a gun or not; just that they were talking about whether there was a resemblance and then one of them made a comment that was perceived as a threat. Since we don’t know what the comment was, it’s pure speculation as to whether it was a threat or not. 

    I could take a wild guess - say, maybe one kid said “we’ll, I’ll show you what a gun really looks like”. 

    Who knows? You certainly don’t, nor do I. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • SmellymanSmellyman Asia Posts: 4,517
     
    unsung said:
    Kat said:
    I think the Second Amendment should be followed exactly as the Founding Fathers intended. Everyone with a modern gun should turn it in and get a musket exactly like the ones the FF were talking about when that amendment was written. That will take care of assault rifles.

    Here's hoping the insanity will stop.
    Where is the word musket?

  • unsungunsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
    That is why I need a firearm, and I will make the decision on which to protect my family with.

    Cowards.

    Maybe we can get retired military to stand in as guards so the police don't cry themselves to sleep at night.


    https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/politics/parkland-school-shooting-broward-deputies/index.html?sr=twCNNp022318parkland-school-shooting-broward-deputies0436PMStory&CNNPolitics=Tw
  • unsungunsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
  • riley540riley540 Denver Colorado Posts: 1,128
    CNN reported today that there were 4 armed officers outside of the school that didn’t go inside. Family members of the shooter reported to the same police force that the shooter should be disarmed and that he might be planning a shooting. 

    CNN saying this. Not a right wing source. This police force dropped the ball hard, and they should all be fired. 
  • dignindignin Posts: 9,303
    tbergs said:
    Hey unsung, here's one I'm surprised you haven't been ragging on. Student is providing fake information about scripted questions from CNN.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/02/22/shooting_survivor_colton_haab_cnn_gave_me_scripted_question_after_denying_question_about_armed_guards.html

    Parkland shooting survivor's family shops doctored emails with CNN to media outlets

  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    dignin said:
    tbergs said:
    Hey unsung, here's one I'm surprised you haven't been ragging on. Student is providing fake information about scripted questions from CNN.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/02/22/shooting_survivor_colton_haab_cnn_gave_me_scripted_question_after_denying_question_about_armed_guards.html

    Parkland shooting survivor's family shops doctored emails with CNN to media outlets

    Real classy people
  • tbergstbergs Posts: 9,195
    my2hands said:
    dignin said:
    tbergs said:
    Hey unsung, here's one I'm surprised you haven't been ragging on. Student is providing fake information about scripted questions from CNN.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/02/22/shooting_survivor_colton_haab_cnn_gave_me_scripted_question_after_denying_question_about_armed_guards.html

    Parkland shooting survivor's family shops doctored emails with CNN to media outlets

    Real classy people
    Our lying president should be sued for libel. He spreads lies and conspiracies with no consequence. It's bullshit.
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • camsjamcamsjam Posts: 375
    The comparison of armed teachers to air marshals and pilots is apples to oranges. Air marshals are federal officers employed by the department of homeland security, not airline employees. Pilots are employed by the airline and a huge percentage earned their aviation license though years of military service. Some pilots do in fact carry a personal firearm while flying. However their purpose for doing so is to defend the cockpit if the door is breached and to prevent control of the aircraft being taken over like 9/11. They would not run out guns blazing to take out a shooter- their responsibility, to both their employer and the public onboard, is to land the plane safely.  The other consideration is these mass murderers don't care about even their own lives. This last mass shooter is the first one I know of that left the scene after shooting. All of the others Vegas, Sandy Hook, Columbine either killed themselves or enabled law enforcement to kill them. Thinking that another person, who will not have an automatic weapon, will deter them is wishful thinking. And the idea a SIGN would stop them is just ridiculous.
  • camsjamcamsjam Posts: 375
    Teachers are already such an unappreciated job in our society asking them to volunteer for this responsibility in addition to educating our youth is just so sad...And pointless for many of the above mentioned reasons.
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,141
    edited February 2018
    unsung said:
    That is why I need a firearm, and I will make the decision on which to protect my family with.

    Cowards.

    Maybe we can get retired military to stand in as guards so the police don't cry themselves to sleep at night.


    https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/politics/parkland-school-shooting-broward-deputies/index.html?sr=twCNNp022318parkland-school-shooting-broward-deputies0436PMStory&CNNPolitics=Tw
    Okay, Rambo
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  • CM189191CM189191 Minneapolis via Chicago Posts: 6,786
    unsung said:
    That is why I need a firearm, and I will make the decision on which to protect my family with.

    Cowards.

    Maybe we can get retired military to stand in as guards so the police don't cry themselves to sleep at night.


    https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/politics/parkland-school-shooting-broward-deputies/index.html?sr=twCNNp022318parkland-school-shooting-broward-deputies0436PMStory&CNNPolitics=Tw


    Right, you need a gun because you're not a coward.  

    Gun nuts are the biggest cowards there are.  The NRA was built on fear mongering and you let them piss the kool-aid right down your throat.  
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  • unsungunsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
    As I have said a hundred times, I do not support the NRA.
  • unsung said:
    As I have said a hundred times, I do not support the NRA.
    That and voting for Clinton once gives you street cred, huh?
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  • CM189191CM189191 Minneapolis via Chicago Posts: 6,786
    unsung said:
    As I have said a hundred times, I do not support the NRA.
    That doesn't make you any less of a coward.
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  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 28,602
    unsung said:
    As I have said a hundred times, I do not support the NRA.
    I have no issues with you having a gun protecting your family.  I have the same.  I do have an issue with poorly trained teachers having weapons around my children in a classroom.  I am supportive of resource officers in the school.  My district has them today.  What I'm adamantly against is having semi auto rifles being legal weapons.  
    This isn't about "banning the 2A", it's about common sense regulations on weapons of war, not protection.  
  • unsungunsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
    CM189191 said:
    unsung said:
    As I have said a hundred times, I do not support the NRA.
    That doesn't make you any less of a coward.
    Internet tough guy.
  • unsungunsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
    mrussel1 said:
    unsung said:
    As I have said a hundred times, I do not support the NRA.
    I have no issues with you having a gun protecting your family.  I have the same.  I do have an issue with poorly trained teachers having weapons around my children in a classroom.  I am supportive of resource officers in the school.  My district has them today.  What I'm adamantly against is having semi auto rifles being legal weapons.  
    This isn't about "banning the 2A", it's about common sense regulations on weapons of war, not protection.  
    Semi auto rifles are not weapons of war.
This discussion has been closed.