no offence, but I don't consider it particularly brave to not have kids nowadays. Maybe in the 60's, but now it's pretty common.
I generally don't like kids from about age 6 on (except my own-most of the time). I don't mind a couple of my oldest daughter's friends, and a few of my youngest daughter's friends are just quiet cuties (except one who is the fucking tasmanian devil-thank god she moved away). But I love babies. I'm a sucker for a fat baby. People think, as a large 43 year old man, that it's totally bizarre and that I shouldn't like babies, that I need to be in front of a tv yelling at a football referee, but no, if we were at a friend's house watching the superbowl and there was a baby in the other room, I'd be in the room with the baby (I'm the same with human babies as most people are with animal babies). LOL. But school age kids? no thanks. besides my own, can't stand most of them. especially with my daughter being pre-teen. the way she talks when she's with her friends, good god it makes me want to stab myself in the eye with a fork. I just have to remember how stupid I was/sounded at that age, and you just have to laugh. every generation is basically the same, just different technology.
I've always known I wanted to have a family. if it didn't happen for me, I wouldn't have been devastated, but I always knew my preference was to have kids.
I love the Louis CK bit from his SNL monologue: "except for my own, I hate kids, little boys in particular. I hate little boys. I guess I'm the opposite of a pedophile".
No offense taken, but I disagree. Maybe you feel like that because you're a man. Nobody seems to care if men don't have kids. But women are still very much stuck with a stigma if they don't have kids. They are judged. I am victim to that stigma and that judgement every day.
why would I feel like that simply because of my gender? half the people in my life are women (most of the people in my office are females), many of them don't have kids, and I've never heard anything like this before. I don't know of any women who have ever made a comment about another woman's familial status. Not once. And I've heard LOADS of shitty things women say about one another ("no wonder her husband left her" is one of the more recent ones), but never have I heard anything shaming a woman for not having kids.
It DOES come down to experience - whether man or woman - as I have never (except once, and even then...no biggie) been knowingly or overtly judged for my choice. Even my mom gets it, accepts it. My dad did too. If people respect you, they'll respect the path you choose to walk.
I feel no bravery - never even occurred to me, in these times - for my decision, just the knowledge that I made the right one.
(and...spinster? I haven't heard that term in years!)
I have been disagreed with, told I don't know my own wants, that I'm selfish and that I hate children. Both men and women gave been extremely judgemental in my decision not to have children for years. It has sucked and to be honest kinda pissed me off. The decision is up to the individual and to be honest is no one else's business. Unfortunately this has not been the bulk of my experience in my lifetime. And poopooing someone else's experiences but you haven't had the same ones is very much akin to judging someone for their life choices.
Poopooing? That's spinster speak.
On another note, glad to see you survived the trip to Gilbert.
no offence, but I don't consider it particularly brave to not have kids nowadays. Maybe in the 60's, but now it's pretty common.
I generally don't like kids from about age 6 on (except my own-most of the time). I don't mind a couple of my oldest daughter's friends, and a few of my youngest daughter's friends are just quiet cuties (except one who is the fucking tasmanian devil-thank god she moved away). But I love babies. I'm a sucker for a fat baby. People think, as a large 43 year old man, that it's totally bizarre and that I shouldn't like babies, that I need to be in front of a tv yelling at a football referee, but no, if we were at a friend's house watching the superbowl and there was a baby in the other room, I'd be in the room with the baby (I'm the same with human babies as most people are with animal babies). LOL. But school age kids? no thanks. besides my own, can't stand most of them. especially with my daughter being pre-teen. the way she talks when she's with her friends, good god it makes me want to stab myself in the eye with a fork. I just have to remember how stupid I was/sounded at that age, and you just have to laugh. every generation is basically the same, just different technology.
I've always known I wanted to have a family. if it didn't happen for me, I wouldn't have been devastated, but I always knew my preference was to have kids.
I love the Louis CK bit from his SNL monologue: "except for my own, I hate kids, little boys in particular. I hate little boys. I guess I'm the opposite of a pedophile".
No offense taken, but I disagree. Maybe you feel like that because you're a man. Nobody seems to care if men don't have kids. But women are still very much stuck with a stigma if they don't have kids. They are judged. I am victim to that stigma and that judgement every day.
why would I feel like that simply because of my gender? half the people in my life are women (most of the people in my office are females), many of them don't have kids, and I've never heard anything like this before. I don't know of any women who have ever made a comment about another woman's familial status. Not once. And I've heard LOADS of shitty things women say about one another ("no wonder her husband left her" is one of the more recent ones), but never have I heard anything shaming a woman for not having kids.
Because people don't lay that expectation on men like they do women, so if you don't experience that judgement and stigma then why would you be very aware of it? I don't think it's fair of you to simply consider what the people in your own life do and then tell me it's not a thing when I'm telling you it is very much a thing in my own experience. But FYI, it's not about women (or men) sitting around just being catty. It goes way beyond that in so many ways, both subtle and not so much.
where did I say it's not a thing? I said I had never heard it/noticed it before. you are telling me what you experience. I am telling you the exact same thing with different results. me drawing from my own experience is just as valid as you doing the same.
I would most likely be aware of it because of my EQ and relationship with women, just like anything else not directly affecting my gender. But I can obviously admit that it's possible I don't pick up on it.
what I am aware of is actually the exact opposite: women being shamed FOR having kids by men in the workplace. it can be a massive uphill battle having career when you may have to stay home with a sick child and miss a meeting with a client. My sister had a massive falling out with her last boss because of this.
You said it doesn't take any bravery to make the decision I did (to me that says you don't think it's a thing), and I'm telling you that it did, and why.
The whole "he's a consummate bachelor and she's an old
spinster" concept is very much alive and well FYI. If you don't think
so it's because it doesn't affect you directly.
I do agree that babies and careers are also an issue now - a side effect of being closer to female equality, wherein women have all the old expectations placed on them as well as all the new ones. I think that is a very complicated subject.
ok, let's turn this around. I get "judged" all the time for being "the man of the house" and not being the breadwinner, not being a careerist, not being ambitious. Do I face judgment? Yep. from peers, from friends, from people who I barely know. Just this summer, a woman that is a friend of a friend asked me what I do. I told her. She said "do you LOVE it?". I'm like "nope". And she looked at me like i was a fucking alien.
Do I think I'm brave for going against social norms? that's a big fat nope. Why? Cause I don't give a shit what others think. which is why I'm surprised you consider it to be a brave choice. you seem like the type that is proud of her "I don't give a fuck"ness. but that's just my perception.
I find your "consummate bachelor" and "spinster" comment to be incredibly outdated. I don't hear that stuff at all. That's like something from Mad Men. But again, this is in my experience.
why do all of our conversations turn into fiery debates?
I think it is brave for a man to decide to be, say, a stay at home dad given society's persistent stigmas around that. I also think it's brave for a man or woman to leave their career to do that. My perspective of bravery is different I guess. You seem to think giving a fuck about what others think is a requirement for bravery. I actually feel the exact opposite. I think it's brave to NOT give a fuck about what others think, in the face of societal expectation. Are you not aware that the vast majority of people DO give a fuck and that's why they bow to the pressure instead of resisting it?
Yeah, I still see and hear comments about how poor women over 40 are going to be alone forever, and oh no, what's wrong with them that they couldn't land a man, and oh no, she's going to regret not having kids after it's too late. And I still observe that men who remain bachelors and childless are often admired and just considered to be playboys. That is true in pop culture especially, but in real life too. I am really surprised you two are denying this is a thing. I think it's really obvious. Is it perhaps that you both ignored by quotation marks around the terms I used? I didn't mean that people literally go around saying those specific words, lol. I assumed you'd understand that.
So many of our conversations turn into "fiery debates" because we care, man. We care.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
no offence, but I don't consider it particularly brave to not have kids nowadays. Maybe in the 60's, but now it's pretty common.
I generally don't like kids from about age 6 on (except my own-most of the time). I don't mind a couple of my oldest daughter's friends, and a few of my youngest daughter's friends are just quiet cuties (except one who is the fucking tasmanian devil-thank god she moved away). But I love babies. I'm a sucker for a fat baby. People think, as a large 43 year old man, that it's totally bizarre and that I shouldn't like babies, that I need to be in front of a tv yelling at a football referee, but no, if we were at a friend's house watching the superbowl and there was a baby in the other room, I'd be in the room with the baby (I'm the same with human babies as most people are with animal babies). LOL. But school age kids? no thanks. besides my own, can't stand most of them. especially with my daughter being pre-teen. the way she talks when she's with her friends, good god it makes me want to stab myself in the eye with a fork. I just have to remember how stupid I was/sounded at that age, and you just have to laugh. every generation is basically the same, just different technology.
I've always known I wanted to have a family. if it didn't happen for me, I wouldn't have been devastated, but I always knew my preference was to have kids.
I love the Louis CK bit from his SNL monologue: "except for my own, I hate kids, little boys in particular. I hate little boys. I guess I'm the opposite of a pedophile".
No offense taken, but I disagree. Maybe you feel like that because you're a man. Nobody seems to care if men don't have kids. But women are still very much stuck with a stigma if they don't have kids. They are judged. I am victim to that stigma and that judgement every day.
why would I feel like that simply because of my gender? half the people in my life are women (most of the people in my office are females), many of them don't have kids, and I've never heard anything like this before. I don't know of any women who have ever made a comment about another woman's familial status. Not once. And I've heard LOADS of shitty things women say about one another ("no wonder her husband left her" is one of the more recent ones), but never have I heard anything shaming a woman for not having kids.
It DOES come down to experience - whether man or woman - as I have never (except once, and even then...no biggie) been knowingly or overtly judged for my choice. Even my mom gets it, accepts it. My dad did too. If people respect you, they'll respect the path you choose to walk.
I feel no bravery - never even occurred to me, in these times - for my decision, just the knowledge that I made the right one.
(and...spinster? I haven't heard that term in years!)
I have been disagreed with, told I don't know my own wants, that I'm selfish and that I hate children. Both men and women gave been extremely judgemental in my decision not to have children for years. It has sucked and to be honest kinda pissed me off. The decision is up to the individual and to be honest is no one else's business. Unfortunately this has not been the bulk of my experience in my lifetime. And poopooing someone else's experiences but you haven't had the same ones is very much akin to judging someone for their life choices.
Poopooing? That's spinster speak.
On another note, glad to see you survived the trip to Gilbert.
It's better than my usual language. Unfortunately I can't claim the spinster title anymore. I blame America.
Anything you lose from being honest You never really had to begin with.
Sometimes it's not the song that makes you emotional it's the people and things that come to your mind when you hear it.
I think the general consensus is that if you're a dreamy George Clooney or something and you’re 40+ and single, cool. Get you some!
If, on the other hand, you're just some regular 40+ schlubby dude without any prospects for even a date, you're pathetic and maybe even a perv. Let's cross the street, kids!
Not my view, mind you. I have two fairly successful friends my age who probably haven't even gone on a date for two years. Other than them both being admittedly lonely at times, I don't think anything is wrong with them. A lot of other folks do, though. And I think that causes them to be very self-conscious. One of them won't even talk to women because he thinks they'll think he's some kind of creep.
I think the general consensus is that if you're a dreamy George Clooney or something and your 40+ and single, cool. Get you some!
If, on the other hand, you're just some regular 40+ schlubby dude without any prospects for even a date, you're pathetic and maybe even a perv. Let's cross the street, kids!
Not my view, mind you. I have two fairly successful friends my age who probably haven't even gone on a date for two years. Other than them both being admittedly lonely at times, I don't think anything is wrong with them. A lot of other folks do, though. And I think that causes them to be very self-conscious. One of them won't even talk to women because he thinks they'll think he's some kind of creep.
I hadn't actually thought of that - the "type" of man you are determines how people view that, but yeah, now that you mention it, that's totally true about men in that age bracket who are single/never married (I'm thinking divorcees are different?). It's not fucking fair. Is that true of being childless too though? What if they are married without children? Do they have dickheads telling them how they better get on it before it's too late, and that they'll regret their decision not to have kids later, and calling them selfish for not having them?
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I think the general consensus is that if you're a dreamy George Clooney or something and your 40+ and single, cool. Get you some!
If, on the other hand, you're just some regular 40+ schlubby dude without any prospects for even a date, you're pathetic and maybe even a perv. Let's cross the street, kids!
Not my view, mind you. I have two fairly successful friends my age who probably haven't even gone on a date for two years. Other than them both being admittedly lonely at times, I don't think anything is wrong with them. A lot of other folks do, though. And I think that causes them to be very self-conscious. One of them won't even talk to women because he thinks they'll think he's some kind of creep.
I hadn't actually thought of that - the "type" of man you are determines how people view that, but yeah, now that you mention it, that's totally true about men in that age bracket who are single/never married (I'm thinking divorcees are different?). It's not fucking fair. Is that true of being childless too though? What if they are married without children? Do they have dickheads telling them how they better get on it before it's too late, and that they'll regret their decision not to have kids later, and calling them selfish for not having them?
Probably not as much since it’s biologically more feasible for a man to have healthy kids well past his forties.
For dudes, I think, marriage and fatherhood is more about being viewed as a stable and responsible man. More employable. It’s bullshit, but that’s how it works.
Most of my women friends are childless and quite happy that way—thank you very much.
Most of my divorced male friends struggle mightily with shame and depression, even more so if they have children with their exes. Most of the divorced women I know are not affected in such a way. In fact, they seem happier than they ever have—even the moms. This is anecdotal and may just be the type of company I keep.
(FWIW, I’m much closer with my women friends than I am with most of my male friends.)
Yeah, I agree with that. Not all, but most of the women I know who have divorced have been SO much happier than they were when they were married (after the initial horribleness of divorce wears off, that is. I've been through it kinda - Common law marriage though. Not quite the same, but absolutely horrible nonetheless... until you come out the other side. And then being single is marvelous) ... Hell, I also know several married women who seem like they want to divorce their husbands basically out of boredom and annoyance I think, but are just scared to because they don't want to disturb everyone else, and also because they still love their husbands... they just aren't happy with them anymore. They don't want to hurt them. ... I know a few happy couples too, lol. They are not in the majority, but they exist.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
From my point of view, I think the brave ones are those who choose to have children. By far the easiest road for me to take would be not to have children i.e. simply continue on with my life, doing as I please. To have a child takes enormous sacrifice, I'm not sure I have the strength or selflessness (or patience!) but I admire those who do
From my point of view, I think the brave ones are those who choose to have children. By far the easiest road for me to take would be not to have children i.e. simply continue on with my life, doing as I please. To have a child takes enormous sacrifice, I'm not sure I have the strength or selflessness (or patience!) but I admire those who do
I think it's brave to have children too, just for different reasons and in a different way. I did not mean to suggest it's not brave to have kids as well, especially in these times, nor did I mean to suggest that I don't think those who have kids shouldn't have. I am very thankful for those who have kids..... at least when their kids don't end up as horrible people. I guess I meant that it's not brave to have kids if you actually don't want them but have them anyhow because it's what is expected of you or just "what you're supposed to do". I think that is weak (although totally understandable). And to be honest, I don't like talking about it in this way (i.e. brave to have them/not brave to not have them/vice versa, and I never meant for that implication to exist, because it kind of feels like it's those with children vs those without children now, in this conversation. And I hate that battle. I see it all the time on social media and it just sucks. Also, to be clear, I don't think it's brave not to have kids just because you're simply too lazy, lol. FWIW Jenny, I think you would likely have the strength, selflessness, and patience to have them if they're your kids. That love parents feel for their kids usually supersedes those other things in my experience. I know if I did have kids I wouldn't have a problem finding the internal resources it take to be a good parent, because I know I would want to do it for my kids. It would be the most important thing in my life. But you do bring up a good point - Yes, not having kids is a hell of a lot easier, resisting social expectations and dealing with social stigmas aside.... Then again, most people I know who have kids never even questioned it. It's not like they debated the issue with themselves (as I know you do). They just KNEW they wanted them. In fact, most never even considered the fact that it would be really hard, frankly, so eh, maybe those people weren't all that brave after all, lol.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
My biggest fear is that my child would be born with a physical or mental disability and that I would not be able to handle it. I know everyone says that you will love your child no matter what but I am genuinely concerned that I would not have the capacity or selflessness to deal with such a challenge. I am not proud of that fact but I can admit to it. That is probably the biggest thing holding me back from having a child
My biggest fear is that my child would be born with a physical or mental disability and that I would not be able to handle it. I know everyone says that you will love your child no matter what but I am genuinely concerned that I would not have the capacity or selflessness to deal with such a challenge. I am not proud of that fact but I can admit to it. That is probably the biggest thing holding me back from having a child
I have a very close friend whose son is very severely autistic. He will never be independent... never really speak, apparently ... and possibly will never even be able to stop wearing diapers because he's got poop issues (apparently quite common for those at the extreme end of the autism spectrum). And now that he's getting older and bigger - nearing puberty - he is getting harder and harder to manage. Tantrums from his frustration in not being able to communicate I think. And harder to just deal with physically. He's starting to lash out and teachers are concerned about him hurting them and other kids.
The really devastating part is that they were never supposed to have a kid. His wife was told she was infertile years earlier. Then one day she turned up pregnant anyway. Miracle child... and then they discover that he's autistic... and then they discover that he's as severely autistic as kids get. Plus they have the heinous burden of not knowing what will happen to him when he's older and they both die. They won't have family to take care of him or anything, and they've been unable to have a second child (not for lack of trying - she had 2 miscarriages). I see my friend carrying this kind of stress around with him, but i still can't imagine how it must really feel. All I know is that he is a shell of his former self (his words, not mine, but I see it). Of course they love their son as any parent loves their child, and they do the best they can for him ... but man, the psychological toll it has taken on both parents makes my heart break. And I think they feel a great deal of guilt about feeling so terrible about it. And yes, the very thought scares the shit out of me. If it were my kid... I just don't know how I'd deal. Just day to day I guess. I feel like maybe I'd be so full of anxiety that I would barely be able to put one foot in front of the other. Speaking of bravery... I think it's brave that my friends even roll out of bed in the morning, given the circumstances.
So anyway, after that horror story, sorry, I want to try and reassure you, lol. I mean, the chances of your child not being fine are still relatively slim. I know it doesn't really feel like it, but it's still true. Not as slim as we wish, but the odds of even autism (including very mild forms) are still something like 90 to 1. The odds of a severe form of it are much higher than that. And the odds of many other serious problems are even slimmer than that. Still, yeah, I think all potential parents worry about the possibility, just like people worry about the possibility of their kids dying in some accident. I suppose all of life is risk though, whether we have kids or not. Horrible things could happen to us or our kids any day of our lives... Nothing we can do about it, so I figure that worry shouldn't get in the way of deciding to have kids either. But I understand it's an unavoidable fear. I just figure, if you want a kid, have a kid. Because anything else will surely end with regret. The "what ifs" can wreck a life.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
My biggest fear is that my child would be born with a physical or mental disability and that I would not be able to handle it. I know everyone says that you will love your child no matter what but I am genuinely concerned that I would not have the capacity or selflessness to deal with such a challenge. I am not proud of that fact but I can admit to it. That is probably the biggest thing holding me back from having a child
I have a very close friend whose son is very severely autistic. He will never be independent... never really speak, apparently ... and possibly will never even be able to stop wearing diapers because he's got poop issues (apparently quite common for those at the extreme end of the autism spectrum). And now that he's getting older and bigger - nearing puberty - he is getting harder and harder to manage. Tantrums from his frustration in not being able to communicate I think. And harder to just deal with physically. He's starting to lash out and teachers are concerned about him hurting them and other kids.
The really devastating part is that they were never supposed to have a kid. His wife was told she was infertile years earlier. Then one day she turned up pregnant anyway. Miracle child... and then they discover that he's autistic... and then they discover that he's as severely autistic as kids get. Plus they have the heinous burden of not knowing what will happen to him when he's older and they both die. They won't have family to take care of him or anything, and they've been unable to have a second child (not for lack of trying - she had 2 miscarriages). I see my friend carrying this kind of stress around with him, but i still can't imagine how it must really feel. All I know is that he is a shell of his former self (his words, not mine, but I see it). Of course they love their son as any parent loves their child, and they do the best they can for him ... but man, the psychological toll it has taken on both parents makes my heart break. And I think they feel a great deal of guilt about feeling so terrible about it. And yes, the very thought scares the shit out of me. If it were my kid... I just don't know how I'd deal. Just day to day I guess. I feel like maybe I'd be so full of anxiety that I would barely be able to put one foot in front of the other. Speaking of bravery... I think it's brave that my friends even roll out of bed in the morning, given the circumstances.
So anyway, after that horror story, sorry, I want to try and reassure you, lol. I mean, the chances of your child not being fine are still relatively slim. I know it doesn't really feel like it, but it's still true. Not as slim as we wish, but the odds of even autism (including very mild forms) are still something like 90 to 1. The odds of a severe form of it are much higher than that. And the odds of many other serious problems are even slimmer than that. Still, yeah, I think all potential parents worry about the possibility, just like people worry about the possibility of their kids dying in some accident. I suppose all of life is risk though, whether we have kids or not. Horrible things could happen to us or our kids any day of our lives... Nothing we can do about it, so I figure that worry shouldn't get in the way of deciding to have kids either. But I understand it's an unavoidable fear. I just figure, if you want a kid, have a kid. Because anything else will surely end with regret. The "what ifs" can wreck a life.
Your friends situation is my worst nightmare and they have my utmost sympathy I know you're right though and we can't let fear rule our lives
My biggest fear is that my child would be born with a physical or mental disability and that I would not be able to handle it. I know everyone says that you will love your child no matter what but I am genuinely concerned that I would not have the capacity or selflessness to deal with such a challenge. I am not proud of that fact but I can admit to it. That is probably the biggest thing holding me back from having a child
I have a very close friend whose son is very severely autistic. He will never be independent... never really speak, apparently ... and possibly will never even be able to stop wearing diapers because he's got poop issues (apparently quite common for those at the extreme end of the autism spectrum). And now that he's getting older and bigger - nearing puberty - he is getting harder and harder to manage. Tantrums from his frustration in not being able to communicate I think. And harder to just deal with physically. He's starting to lash out and teachers are concerned about him hurting them and other kids.
The really devastating part is that they were never supposed to have a kid. His wife was told she was infertile years earlier. Then one day she turned up pregnant anyway. Miracle child... and then they discover that he's autistic... and then they discover that he's as severely autistic as kids get. Plus they have the heinous burden of not knowing what will happen to him when he's older and they both die. They won't have family to take care of him or anything, and they've been unable to have a second child (not for lack of trying - she had 2 miscarriages). I see my friend carrying this kind of stress around with him, but i still can't imagine how it must really feel. All I know is that he is a shell of his former self (his words, not mine, but I see it). Of course they love their son as any parent loves their child, and they do the best they can for him ... but man, the psychological toll it has taken on both parents makes my heart break. And I think they feel a great deal of guilt about feeling so terrible about it. And yes, the very thought scares the shit out of me. If it were my kid... I just don't know how I'd deal. Just day to day I guess. I feel like maybe I'd be so full of anxiety that I would barely be able to put one foot in front of the other. Speaking of bravery... I think it's brave that my friends even roll out of bed in the morning, given the circumstances.
So anyway, after that horror story, sorry, I want to try and reassure you, lol. I mean, the chances of your child not being fine are still relatively slim. I know it doesn't really feel like it, but it's still true. Not as slim as we wish, but the odds of even autism (including very mild forms) are still something like 90 to 1. The odds of a severe form of it are much higher than that. And the odds of many other serious problems are even slimmer than that. Still, yeah, I think all potential parents worry about the possibility, just like people worry about the possibility of their kids dying in some accident. I suppose all of life is risk though, whether we have kids or not. Horrible things could happen to us or our kids any day of our lives... Nothing we can do about it, so I figure that worry shouldn't get in the way of deciding to have kids either. But I understand it's an unavoidable fear. I just figure, if you want a kid, have a kid. Because anything else will surely end with regret. The "what ifs" can wreck a life.
Your friends situation is my worst nightmare and they have my utmost sympathy I know you're right though and we can't let fear rule our lives
The risk for giving birth to a child with autism increases with age but no correlational data have been found for maternal age, only for fathers over 40 years where the risk increases to 5 times more likely. So try and get some young and healthy sperm if you go via IVF.
Post edited by Thoughts_Arrive on
Adelaide 17/11/2009, Melbourne 20/11/2009, Sydney 22/11/2009, Melbourne (Big Day Out Festival) 24/01/2014
Just told my mum I'm thinking of single parenthood, she was reassuringly supportive Didn't even suggest maybe I could just meet a man like a normal person
Just told my mum I'm thinking of single parenthood, she was reassuringly supportive Didn't even suggest maybe I could just meet a man like a normal person
Good to know some moms are supportive of personal life choices
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
Just told my mum I'm thinking of single parenthood, she was reassuringly supportive Didn't even suggest maybe I could just meet a man like a normal person
Good to know some moms are supportive of personal life choices
no offence, but I don't consider it particularly brave to not have kids nowadays. Maybe in the 60's, but now it's pretty common.
I generally don't like kids from about age 6 on (except my own-most of the time). I don't mind a couple of my oldest daughter's friends, and a few of my youngest daughter's friends are just quiet cuties (except one who is the fucking tasmanian devil-thank god she moved away). But I love babies. I'm a sucker for a fat baby. People think, as a large 43 year old man, that it's totally bizarre and that I shouldn't like babies, that I need to be in front of a tv yelling at a football referee, but no, if we were at a friend's house watching the superbowl and there was a baby in the other room, I'd be in the room with the baby (I'm the same with human babies as most people are with animal babies). LOL. But school age kids? no thanks. besides my own, can't stand most of them. especially with my daughter being pre-teen. the way she talks when she's with her friends, good god it makes me want to stab myself in the eye with a fork. I just have to remember how stupid I was/sounded at that age, and you just have to laugh. every generation is basically the same, just different technology.
I've always known I wanted to have a family. if it didn't happen for me, I wouldn't have been devastated, but I always knew my preference was to have kids.
I love the Louis CK bit from his SNL monologue: "except for my own, I hate kids, little boys in particular. I hate little boys. I guess I'm the opposite of a pedophile".
No offense taken, but I disagree. Maybe you feel like that because you're a man. Nobody seems to care if men don't have kids. But women are still very much stuck with a stigma if they don't have kids. They are judged. I am victim to that stigma and that judgement every day.
why would I feel like that simply because of my gender? half the people in my life are women (most of the people in my office are females), many of them don't have kids, and I've never heard anything like this before. I don't know of any women who have ever made a comment about another woman's familial status. Not once. And I've heard LOADS of shitty things women say about one another ("no wonder her husband left her" is one of the more recent ones), but never have I heard anything shaming a woman for not having kids.
Because people don't lay that expectation on men like they do women, so if you don't experience that judgement and stigma then why would you be very aware of it? I don't think it's fair of you to simply consider what the people in your own life do and then tell me it's not a thing when I'm telling you it is very much a thing in my own experience. But FYI, it's not about women (or men) sitting around just being catty. It goes way beyond that in so many ways, both subtle and not so much.
where did I say it's not a thing? I said I had never heard it/noticed it before. you are telling me what you experience. I am telling you the exact same thing with different results. me drawing from my own experience is just as valid as you doing the same.
I would most likely be aware of it because of my EQ and relationship with women, just like anything else not directly affecting my gender. But I can obviously admit that it's possible I don't pick up on it.
what I am aware of is actually the exact opposite: women being shamed FOR having kids by men in the workplace. it can be a massive uphill battle having career when you may have to stay home with a sick child and miss a meeting with a client. My sister had a massive falling out with her last boss because of this.
You said it doesn't take any bravery to make the decision I did (to me that says you don't think it's a thing), and I'm telling you that it did, and why.
The whole "he's a consummate bachelor and she's an old
spinster" concept is very much alive and well FYI. If you don't think
so it's because it doesn't affect you directly.
I do agree that babies and careers are also an issue now - a side effect of being closer to female equality, wherein women have all the old expectations placed on them as well as all the new ones. I think that is a very complicated subject.
ok, let's turn this around. I get "judged" all the time for being "the man of the house" and not being the breadwinner, not being a careerist, not being ambitious. Do I face judgment? Yep. from peers, from friends, from people who I barely know. Just this summer, a woman that is a friend of a friend asked me what I do. I told her. She said "do you LOVE it?". I'm like "nope". And she looked at me like i was a fucking alien.
Do I think I'm brave for going against social norms? that's a big fat nope. Why? Cause I don't give a shit what others think. which is why I'm surprised you consider it to be a brave choice. you seem like the type that is proud of her "I don't give a fuck"ness. but that's just my perception.
I find your "consummate bachelor" and "spinster" comment to be incredibly outdated. I don't hear that stuff at all. That's like something from Mad Men. But again, this is in my experience.
why do all of our conversations turn into fiery debates?
I think it is brave for a man to decide to be, say, a stay at home dad given society's persistent stigmas around that. I also think it's brave for a man or woman to leave their career to do that. My perspective of bravery is different I guess. You seem to think giving a fuck about what others think is a requirement for bravery. I actually feel the exact opposite. I think it's brave to NOT give a fuck about what others think, in the face of societal expectation. Are you not aware that the vast majority of people DO give a fuck and that's why they bow to the pressure instead of resisting it?
Yeah, I still see and hear comments about how poor women over 40 are going to be alone forever, and oh no, what's wrong with them that they couldn't land a man, and oh no, she's going to regret not having kids after it's too late. And I still observe that men who remain bachelors and childless are often admired and just considered to be playboys. That is true in pop culture especially, but in real life too. I am really surprised you two are denying this is a thing. I think it's really obvious. Is it perhaps that you both ignored by quotation marks around the terms I used? I didn't mean that people literally go around saying those specific words, lol. I assumed you'd understand that.
So many of our conversations turn into "fiery debates" because we care, man. We care.
no, I don't think giving a fuck what others think is a requirement for bravery. I just happen to think, in this context, that neither is brave. I don't consider myself brave for not giving a fuck. I just don't give a fuck. I just don't consider living your life the way you want is brave. I think it's admirable, but I think brave is a stretch.
I'm not denying it's a thing. yes, it exists in hollywood and pop culture, there is no question about that. All I said was, I have not experienced it in my daily life. It is not something I have ever heard a childless/single woman mention, and yes, I know several. And I talk about deep things when in conversation. And there are many things some of the cattier women in my office say, and that isn't one of them. So it was more the claim that "you experience it daily" had me wondering. If you say so, fine, but it just hasn't been my experience.
I honestly think that playboy image is dated. I don't find that the image if being a playboy is as alluring as it once was. as each sex's rights and freedoms and societal norms move closer towards the middle, that's how I see it.
I think the general consensus is that if you're a dreamy George Clooney or something and your 40+ and single, cool. Get you some!
If, on the other hand, you're just some regular 40+ schlubby dude without any prospects for even a date, you're pathetic and maybe even a perv. Let's cross the street, kids!
Not my view, mind you. I have two fairly successful friends my age who probably haven't even gone on a date for two years. Other than them both being admittedly lonely at times, I don't think anything is wrong with them. A lot of other folks do, though. And I think that causes them to be very self-conscious. One of them won't even talk to women because he thinks they'll think he's some kind of creep.
I hadn't actually thought of that - the "type" of man you are determines how people view that, but yeah, now that you mention it, that's totally true about men in that age bracket who are single/never married (I'm thinking divorcees are different?). It's not fucking fair. Is that true of being childless too though? What if they are married without children? Do they have dickheads telling them how they better get on it before it's too late, and that they'll regret their decision not to have kids later, and calling them selfish for not having them?
a buddy of mine is my age. just moved back to winnipeg after being in BC for 20 years. never been married, no kids. he was in a common law type situation for years and she had a kid, but then that ended. he went on and on about how he envies me for having a family and whatnot, and I asked him, "do you feel that way because you want a family or because you perceive everyone else around you as having one and you want to be part of the crowd". he didn't really have an answer to that. i mean, he comes across as a guy who loves his independence, but then when he tries to make plans with one of us, and we're busy because because of family or couple obligations, he gets depressed. so I think it's the latter. I don't see anyone telling him he needs to get a woman to be happy, but how knows.
I can't imagine the effort in trying to find a partner at our age. i hated dating my whole life, it would be hell for me at this age. if my wife ever leaves me, that's it. I'm done.
Person A: "I'm proud of myself - it was hard for me but I did it anyway. It felt kinda brave!"
Person B and C: "You shouldn't be and it wasn't. It's no big deal and nobody cares."
Person A:
I would obviously never say that to a person. what someone else considers a brave act to themselves is fine with me. I'm just saying here, in this conversation, that I have different criteria on what constitutes bravery than you. it's such a subjective term, not sure why it's such a big deal that my criteria differs from yours.
I had an interview last week with three staff. They requested a follow-up interview next week with eight staff. I'm so excited!
There is no such thing as leftover pizza. There is now pizza and later pizza. - anonymous The risk I took was calculated, but man, am I bad at math - The Mincing Mockingbird
Comments
On another note, glad to see you survived the trip to Gilbert.
My perspective of bravery is different I guess. You seem to think giving a fuck about what others think is a requirement for bravery. I actually feel the exact opposite. I think it's brave to NOT give a fuck about what others think, in the face of societal expectation. Are you not aware that the vast majority of people DO give a fuck and that's why they bow to the pressure instead of resisting it?
Yeah, I still see and hear comments about how poor women over 40 are going to be alone forever, and oh no, what's wrong with them that they couldn't land a man, and oh no, she's going to regret not having kids after it's too late. And I still observe that men who remain bachelors and childless are often admired and just considered to be playboys. That is true in pop culture especially, but in real life too. I am really surprised you two are denying this is a thing. I think it's really obvious. Is it perhaps that you both ignored by quotation marks around the terms I used? I didn't mean that people literally go around saying those specific words, lol. I assumed you'd understand that.
So many of our conversations turn into "fiery debates" because we care, man. We care.
You never really had to begin with.
Sometimes it's not the song that makes you emotional it's the people and things that come to your mind when you hear it.
If, on the other hand, you're just some regular 40+ schlubby dude without any prospects for even a date, you're pathetic and maybe even a perv. Let's cross the street, kids!
Not my view, mind you. I have two fairly successful friends my age who probably haven't even gone on a date for two years. Other than them both being admittedly lonely at times, I don't think anything is wrong with them. A lot of other folks do, though. And I think that causes them to be very self-conscious. One of them won't even talk to women because he thinks they'll think he's some kind of creep.
For dudes, I think, marriage and fatherhood is more about being viewed as a stable and responsible man. More employable. It’s bullshit, but that’s how it works.
Most of my women friends are childless and quite happy that way—thank you very much.
Most of my divorced male friends struggle mightily with shame and depression, even more so if they have children with their exes. Most of the divorced women I know are not affected in such a way. In fact, they seem happier than they ever have—even the moms. This is anecdotal and may just be the type of company I keep.
(FWIW, I’m much closer with my women friends than I am with most of my male friends.)
... I know a few happy couples too, lol. They are not in the majority, but they exist.
Also, to be clear, I don't think it's brave not to have kids just because you're simply too lazy, lol.
FWIW Jenny, I think you would likely have the strength, selflessness, and patience to have them if they're your kids. That love parents feel for their kids usually supersedes those other things in my experience. I know if I did have kids I wouldn't have a problem finding the internal resources it take to be a good parent, because I know I would want to do it for my kids. It would be the most important thing in my life.
But you do bring up a good point - Yes, not having kids is a hell of a lot easier, resisting social expectations and dealing with social stigmas aside.... Then again, most people I know who have kids never even questioned it. It's not like they debated the issue with themselves (as I know you do). They just KNEW they wanted them. In fact, most never even considered the fact that it would be really hard, frankly, so eh, maybe those people weren't all that brave after all, lol.
The really devastating part is that they were never supposed to have a kid. His wife was told she was infertile years earlier. Then one day she turned up pregnant anyway. Miracle child... and then they discover that he's autistic... and then they discover that he's as severely autistic as kids get. Plus they have the heinous burden of not knowing what will happen to him when he's older and they both die. They won't have family to take care of him or anything, and they've been unable to have a second child (not for lack of trying - she had 2 miscarriages). I see my friend carrying this kind of stress around with him, but i still can't imagine how it must really feel. All I know is that he is a shell of his former self (his words, not mine, but I see it). Of course they love their son as any parent loves their child, and they do the best they can for him ... but man, the psychological toll it has taken on both parents makes my heart break. And I think they feel a great deal of guilt about feeling so terrible about it. And yes, the very thought scares the shit out of me. If it were my kid... I just don't know how I'd deal. Just day to day I guess. I feel like maybe I'd be so full of anxiety that I would barely be able to put one foot in front of the other. Speaking of bravery... I think it's brave that my friends even roll out of bed in the morning, given the circumstances.
So anyway, after that horror story, sorry, I want to try and reassure you, lol. I mean, the chances of your child not being fine are still relatively slim. I know it doesn't really feel like it, but it's still true. Not as slim as we wish, but the odds of even autism (including very mild forms) are still something like 90 to 1. The odds of a severe form of it are much higher than that. And the odds of many other serious problems are even slimmer than that. Still, yeah, I think all potential parents worry about the possibility, just like people worry about the possibility of their kids dying in some accident. I suppose all of life is risk though, whether we have kids or not. Horrible things could happen to us or our kids any day of our lives... Nothing we can do about it, so I figure that worry shouldn't get in the way of deciding to have kids either. But I understand it's an unavoidable fear. I just figure, if you want a kid, have a kid. Because anything else will surely end with regret. The "what ifs" can wreck a life.
Unfortunately, this does not seem to be far from the truth.
Gotta get to sleep somehow
Bangin' on the ceiling
Bangin' on the ceiling
Keep it down
I'm not denying it's a thing. yes, it exists in hollywood and pop culture, there is no question about that. All I said was, I have not experienced it in my daily life. It is not something I have ever heard a childless/single woman mention, and yes, I know several. And I talk about deep things when in conversation. And there are many things some of the cattier women in my office say, and that isn't one of them. So it was more the claim that "you experience it daily" had me wondering. If you say so, fine, but it just hasn't been my experience.
I honestly think that playboy image is dated. I don't find that the image if being a playboy is as alluring as it once was. as each sex's rights and freedoms and societal norms move closer towards the middle, that's how I see it.
Cheers,
HFD
I can't imagine the effort in trying to find a partner at our age. i hated dating my whole life, it would be hell for me at this age. if my wife ever leaves me, that's it. I'm done.
Cheers,
HFD
Person A: "I'm proud of myself - it was hard for me but I did it anyway. It felt kinda brave!"
Person B and C: "You shouldn't be and it wasn't. It's no big deal and nobody cares."
Person A:
My own sense of a lack of so-called bravery doesn't dismiss or even minimize someone else believing it's courageous to make the same choice.
Loving on Lennon (despite the song's title) - wondering what might've been had that motherfucker Chapman not entered his scene.
What'cha say?
Whistle on, ya SOB.
Cheers,
HFD
The risk I took was calculated, but man, am I bad at math - The Mincing Mockingbird
astoria 06
albany 06
hartford 06
reading 06
barcelona 06
paris 06
wembley 07
dusseldorf 07
nijmegen 07
this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -