The Confederacy - Erasing History

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Comments

  • CM189191CM189191 Minneapolis via Chicago Posts: 6,786
    mrussel1 said:
    tbergs said:
    PJPOWER said:
    PJPOWER said:
    CM189191 said:
    brianlux said:
    Why were these considered OK?

    I'm thinking someone was just trolling.  I doubt these people even knew that it was a Russian flag.
    The irony is thick this morning.
    This is kind of an old story, right?
    Irony never gets old but it's sometimes lost.
    Why are we diverting to Trump and Russia flags? Brian asked a pertinent question with confederate flags and past Dems campaigns. Those complaining of irony and pointing at the other side are partaking in the deflect or "whataboutism" stategy often used in their favor when it's a Trump or Antifa statement.

    I think Brian is spot on. It's like the Trump eclipse story. If that was anyone else, and I mean political leader, no one would care, but because Trump is a bumbling doofus, it's a national story. Make fun and move on.

    Remember how you felt when the right made fun or criticized everything Obama did. Didn't change your mind I'm guessing so don't expect it to for him either. Everything has become a childish game of trying to point who does what wrong constantly, and I mean by all sides. 
    I'm arguing that those aren't real.  There's no way in God's green earth that the HRC campaign produced stars and bars pins.  They are trolls or photoshop.  So the whole premise is bullshit.  
    Would you say they are.....false flags?

    WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020 AT 07/07/2020
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 28,602
    I"m here all week.. tip your servers...
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,596
    tbergs said:
    PJPOWER said:
    PJPOWER said:
    CM189191 said:
    brianlux said:
    Why were these considered OK?

    I'm thinking someone was just trolling.  I doubt these people even knew that it was a Russian flag.
    The irony is thick this morning.
    This is kind of an old story, right?
    Irony never gets old but it's sometimes lost.
    Why are we diverting to Trump and Russia flags? Brian asked a pertinent question with confederate flags and past Dems campaigns. Those complaining of irony and pointing at the other side are partaking in the deflect or "whataboutism" stategy often used in their favor when it's a Trump or Antifa statement.

    I think Brian is spot on. It's like the Trump eclipse story. If that was anyone else, and I mean political leader, no one would care, but because Trump is a bumbling doofus, it's a national story. Make fun and move on.

    Remember how you felt when the right made fun or criticized everything Obama did. Didn't change your mind I'm guessing so don't expect it to for him either. Everything has become a childish game of trying to point who does what wrong constantly, and I mean by all sides. 
    Diverting and deflecting.  Well said, T.    They are difficult questions and the answers to the solutions are difficult.  I don't have all the answers, but I think it's worth pursuing them- that is, finding solutions that work better than creating more division.

    mrussel1 said:
    tbergs said:
    PJPOWER said:
    PJPOWER said:
    CM189191 said:
    brianlux said:
    Why were these considered OK?

    I'm thinking someone was just trolling.  I doubt these people even knew that it was a Russian flag.
    The irony is thick this morning.
    This is kind of an old story, right?
    Irony never gets old but it's sometimes lost.
    Why are we diverting to Trump and Russia flags? Brian asked a pertinent question with confederate flags and past Dems campaigns. Those complaining of irony and pointing at the other side are partaking in the deflect or "whataboutism" stategy often used in their favor when it's a Trump or Antifa statement.

    I think Brian is spot on. It's like the Trump eclipse story. If that was anyone else, and I mean political leader, no one would care, but because Trump is a bumbling doofus, it's a national story. Make fun and move on.

    Remember how you felt when the right made fun or criticized everything Obama did. Didn't change your mind I'm guessing so don't expect it to for him either. Everything has become a childish game of trying to point who does what wrong constantly, and I mean by all sides. 
    I'm arguing that those aren't real.  There's no way in God's green earth that the HRC campaign produced stars and bars pins.  They are trolls or photoshop.  So the whole premise is bullshit.  
    More deflection.  I notice you seem to not want to answer the more pertinent question which was basically can we really expect to end racism by going at it with an attaching attitude, telling people they are bad and wrong and telling people them what to do.

    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom's Posts: 17,937
    It's amazing to me how the GOP (which is supposed to be this patriotic, pro-military, wrapped in the flag party) wants to endorse the confederate movement which took up arms AGAINST the United States.


    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 28,602
    brianlux said:
    tbergs said:
    PJPOWER said:
    PJPOWER said:
    CM189191 said:
    brianlux said:
    Why were these considered OK?

    I'm thinking someone was just trolling.  I doubt these people even knew that it was a Russian flag.
    The irony is thick this morning.
    This is kind of an old story, right?
    Irony never gets old but it's sometimes lost.
    Why are we diverting to Trump and Russia flags? Brian asked a pertinent question with confederate flags and past Dems campaigns. Those complaining of irony and pointing at the other side are partaking in the deflect or "whataboutism" stategy often used in their favor when it's a Trump or Antifa statement.

    I think Brian is spot on. It's like the Trump eclipse story. If that was anyone else, and I mean political leader, no one would care, but because Trump is a bumbling doofus, it's a national story. Make fun and move on.

    Remember how you felt when the right made fun or criticized everything Obama did. Didn't change your mind I'm guessing so don't expect it to for him either. Everything has become a childish game of trying to point who does what wrong constantly, and I mean by all sides. 
    Diverting and deflecting.  Well said, T.    They are difficult questions and the answers to the solutions are difficult.  I don't have all the answers, but I think it's worth pursuing them- that is, finding solutions that work better than creating more division.

    mrussel1 said:
    tbergs said:
    PJPOWER said:
    PJPOWER said:
    CM189191 said:
    brianlux said:
    Why were these considered OK?

    I'm thinking someone was just trolling.  I doubt these people even knew that it was a Russian flag.
    The irony is thick this morning.
    This is kind of an old story, right?
    Irony never gets old but it's sometimes lost.
    Why are we diverting to Trump and Russia flags? Brian asked a pertinent question with confederate flags and past Dems campaigns. Those complaining of irony and pointing at the other side are partaking in the deflect or "whataboutism" stategy often used in their favor when it's a Trump or Antifa statement.

    I think Brian is spot on. It's like the Trump eclipse story. If that was anyone else, and I mean political leader, no one would care, but because Trump is a bumbling doofus, it's a national story. Make fun and move on.

    Remember how you felt when the right made fun or criticized everything Obama did. Didn't change your mind I'm guessing so don't expect it to for him either. Everything has become a childish game of trying to point who does what wrong constantly, and I mean by all sides. 
    I'm arguing that those aren't real.  There's no way in God's green earth that the HRC campaign produced stars and bars pins.  They are trolls or photoshop.  So the whole premise is bullshit.  
    More deflection.  I notice you seem to not want to answer the more pertinent question which was basically can we really expect to end racism by going at it with an attaching attitude, telling people they are bad and wrong and telling people them what to do.

    No one said it will be the end of racism.  Does sending $1 a day to unicef end world hunger?  No, of course not, but it helps.  Removing symbols that are meant to glorify a movement that left the Union in order to preserve slavery would be a good move as well.  
     
    And no one is deflecting.  You started this part of the discussion with those idiotic troll buttons.  
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom's Posts: 17,937
    There is absolutely zero arguments that can be made that the confederacy wasn't a pro slave/anti-freedom movement.  It is a sick part of our history.  Monuments to confederate "heroes" should be obliterated.
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 49,474
    edited August 2017
    brianlux said:
    OK, let's try this again.  Here's the problem I have with this whole tearing down monuments and statues things.  What I'm hearing is that a bunch of people from another culture (yes, us Yankees and Westerners and Canadians and whatnot are of another culture) want to go in and tell Southerners what they should do to eradicate their past.  Now that might not be a bad thing if the intention is to eradicate the seething evil of racism that lies underneath what those monuments and statues stand for but does anyone think for one minute that going down there and saying, "Fuck you, we're tearing your shit down," is going to change anyone's mind about the underlying illness of racism?  Come on, really?

    What if someone came up to you and took something you value and replace it with what you think is right- is that going to go down well with you?  No, seriously, think about it.  And yeah, OK, erroneously you think this thing is cool but it's not but is some outsider beating down your door and telling you you're full of shit going to change your mind about JACK? 

    Let's use some sense here.  This is not how you change shit.  It never works.  It's like many years ago when I was pissing my life away on alcohol and bad living habits and my folks were giving me shit for it.  Hey, guess what, did that set me straight?  How do you suppose I reacted to that? Yeah, I drank more.  Groovy.

    NOT!
    Tearing down offensive monuments doesn't eradicate their past at all. History is history. It's the commemoration of those represented in the monuments that would be gone, not the history itself. I also don't think it's about changing the minds of racists at all. People aren't that naive. It's simply about trying to get rid of what they symbolize. As for your "what if" question... IF I valued offensive monuments that are symbols of racism and the perpetuation of Jim Crow, then anyone would be right in looking at me and saying "shame on you!" This is the exact same thing as the Confederate flag goons. Just because some wrong-minded people who have been brainwashed into this bizarre Confederate idolization like it, it doesn't mean it's okay or that others should tolerate it forever. It is a piece of the racist, Jim Crow puzzle, and I personally see no problem with pushing to do something about it, whether these Confederation fans like it or not. It's not about changing their minds, it's about changing things for future generations, one puzzle piece at a time. It's about time this Confederacy nonsense started getting phased out. I'm surprised it took so long.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,121
    I grew up associating the confederate flag with the most bad ass car ever produced
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,596
    mrussel1 said:
    brianlux said:
    tbergs said:
    PJPOWER said:
    PJPOWER said:
    CM189191 said:
    brianlux said:
    Why were these considered OK?

    I'm thinking someone was just trolling.  I doubt these people even knew that it was a Russian flag.
    The irony is thick this morning.
    This is kind of an old story, right?
    Irony never gets old but it's sometimes lost.
    Why are we diverting to Trump and Russia flags? Brian asked a pertinent question with confederate flags and past Dems campaigns. Those complaining of irony and pointing at the other side are partaking in the deflect or "whataboutism" stategy often used in their favor when it's a Trump or Antifa statement.

    I think Brian is spot on. It's like the Trump eclipse story. If that was anyone else, and I mean political leader, no one would care, but because Trump is a bumbling doofus, it's a national story. Make fun and move on.

    Remember how you felt when the right made fun or criticized everything Obama did. Didn't change your mind I'm guessing so don't expect it to for him either. Everything has become a childish game of trying to point who does what wrong constantly, and I mean by all sides. 
    Diverting and deflecting.  Well said, T.    They are difficult questions and the answers to the solutions are difficult.  I don't have all the answers, but I think it's worth pursuing them- that is, finding solutions that work better than creating more division.

    mrussel1 said:
    tbergs said:
    PJPOWER said:
    PJPOWER said:
    CM189191 said:
    brianlux said:
    Why were these considered OK?

    I'm thinking someone was just trolling.  I doubt these people even knew that it was a Russian flag.
    The irony is thick this morning.
    This is kind of an old story, right?
    Irony never gets old but it's sometimes lost.
    Why are we diverting to Trump and Russia flags? Brian asked a pertinent question with confederate flags and past Dems campaigns. Those complaining of irony and pointing at the other side are partaking in the deflect or "whataboutism" stategy often used in their favor when it's a Trump or Antifa statement.

    I think Brian is spot on. It's like the Trump eclipse story. If that was anyone else, and I mean political leader, no one would care, but because Trump is a bumbling doofus, it's a national story. Make fun and move on.

    Remember how you felt when the right made fun or criticized everything Obama did. Didn't change your mind I'm guessing so don't expect it to for him either. Everything has become a childish game of trying to point who does what wrong constantly, and I mean by all sides. 
    I'm arguing that those aren't real.  There's no way in God's green earth that the HRC campaign produced stars and bars pins.  They are trolls or photoshop.  So the whole premise is bullshit.  
    More deflection.  I notice you seem to not want to answer the more pertinent question which was basically can we really expect to end racism by going at it with an attaching attitude, telling people they are bad and wrong and telling people them what to do.

    No one said it will be the end of racism.  Does sending $1 a day to unicef end world hunger?  No, of course not, but it helps.  Removing symbols that are meant to glorify a movement that left the Union in order to preserve slavery would be a good move as well.  
     
    And no one is deflecting.  You started this part of the discussion with those idiotic troll buttons.  
    The buttons are not the issue.  Let's get past that.

    You still didn't answer the question.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,596
    Apparently, some of you are not listening to what I've said.  It's not what most of you want to do, it's how you want to do it.  If you bully, attack, ridicule, tell people they are bad/wrong, make demands etc. you will make far less progress than if you lead by example, educate, work out differences.  Several of you must have issues with those strategies.  That is your right.

    Now I must go and be tortured by sitting in a chair with sharp instruments and drills in my mouth.  Oh goodie.  :lol:

    Later, all.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 49,474
    Jason P said:
    I grew up associating the confederate flag with the most bad ass car ever produced
    I grew up knowing how inappropriate that car was. ;)
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom's Posts: 17,937
    brianlux said:
    Apparently, some of you are not listening to what I've said.  It's not what most of you want to do, it's how you want to do it.  If you bully, attack, ridicule, tell people they are bad/wrong, make demands etc. you will make far less progress than if you lead by example, educate, work out differences.  Several of you must have issues with those strategies.  That is your right.

    Now I must go and be tortured by sitting in a chair with sharp instruments and drills in my mouth.  Oh goodie.  :lol:

    Later, all.
    Leading by example would include removing statues of racist individuals that declared war against the United States.
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 49,474
    edited August 2017
    brianlux said:
    Apparently, some of you are not listening to what I've said.  It's not what most of you want to do, it's how you want to do it.  If you bully, attack, ridicule, tell people they are bad/wrong, make demands etc. you will make far less progress than if you lead by example, educate, work out differences.  Several of you must have issues with those strategies.  That is your right.

    Now I must go and be tortured by sitting in a chair with sharp instruments and drills in my mouth.  Oh goodie.  :lol:

    Later, all.
    I don't think anyone's missing your point or not hearing you Brian. I for one just don't believe that at this point being gentle is going to work at all. It certainly hasn't so far - things are just getting worse. I simply think 'going to battle' has become the only viable option at this point in America's journey.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 28,602
    brianlux said:
    Apparently, some of you are not listening to what I've said.  It's not what most of you want to do, it's how you want to do it.  If you bully, attack, ridicule, tell people they are bad/wrong, make demands etc. you will make far less progress than if you lead by example, educate, work out differences.  Several of you must have issues with those strategies.  That is your right.

    Now I must go and be tortured by sitting in a chair with sharp instruments and drills in my mouth.  Oh goodie.  :lol:

    Later, all.
    Apparently you are not articulating yourself clearly.  If you're for the removal of statues, but in a deliberate way that preserves history, then I'm with you.  If you're against the removal period, then I'm not.  No one is in her arguing for bullying, ridiculing, "making demands", whatever that means.  
    The question as to whether they should be removed from public squares as a reverential monument?  Yes, absolutely.  

    Should they be moved to a museum type area so they can be understood and put in context?  Yes, absolutely.

    Will it eradicate racism?  No, of course not.  Banning the swastika in Germany obviously didn't eliminate its glorification, but it made clear where the new German gov't stood.

    Should people be bullied and ridiculed?  Uh..maybe.  If they are wearing khaki and white while carrying a shield and Confederate flag, then yeah...ridicule away.  

  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 49,474
    mrussel1 said:
    brianlux said:
    Apparently, some of you are not listening to what I've said.  It's not what most of you want to do, it's how you want to do it.  If you bully, attack, ridicule, tell people they are bad/wrong, make demands etc. you will make far less progress than if you lead by example, educate, work out differences.  Several of you must have issues with those strategies.  That is your right.

    Now I must go and be tortured by sitting in a chair with sharp instruments and drills in my mouth.  Oh goodie.  :lol:

    Later, all.
    Apparently you are not articulating yourself clearly.  If you're for the removal of statues, but in a deliberate way that preserves history, then I'm with you.  If you're against the removal period, then I'm not.  No one is in her arguing for bullying, ridiculing, "making demands", whatever that means.  
    The question as to whether they should be removed from public squares as a reverential monument?  Yes, absolutely.  

    Should they be moved to a museum type area so they can be understood and put in context?  Yes, absolutely.

    Will it eradicate racism?  No, of course not.  Banning the swastika in Germany obviously didn't eliminate its glorification, but it made clear where the new German gov't stood.

    Should people be bullied and ridiculed?  Uh..maybe.  If they are wearing khaki and white while carrying a shield and Confederate flag, then yeah...ridicule away.  

    What he said.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 38,853
    PJPOWER said:
    PJPOWER said:
    PJPOWER said:
    CM189191 said:
    brianlux said:
    Why were these considered OK?

    I'm thinking someone was just trolling.  I doubt these people even knew that it was a Russian flag.
    The irony is thick this morning.
    This is kind of an old story, right?
    Irony never gets old but it's sometimes lost.
    Speaking of irony, did you see this?
    https://mobile.twitter.com/UncleChangNYC/status/899373007621246976?ref_src=twsrc^tfw&ref_url=https://www.youngcons.com/blm-protesters-confront-antifa-at-rally-for-wearing-masks-watch-how-guy-responds/
    This is "new" irony!
    I love it that everyone films it and never really participates.

    "yeah man I was there, got great footage of the people jumping a guy"
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER In Yo Face Posts: 6,499
    edited August 2017
    PJPOWER said:
    PJPOWER said:
    PJPOWER said:
    CM189191 said:
    brianlux said:
    Why were these considered OK?

    I'm thinking someone was just trolling.  I doubt these people even knew that it was a Russian flag.
    The irony is thick this morning.
    This is kind of an old story, right?
    Irony never gets old but it's sometimes lost.
    Speaking of irony, did you see this?
    https://mobile.twitter.com/UncleChangNYC/status/899373007621246976?ref_src=twsrc^tfw&ref_url=https://www.youngcons.com/blm-protesters-confront-antifa-at-rally-for-wearing-masks-watch-how-guy-responds/
    This is "new" irony!
    I love it that everyone films it and never really participates.

    "yeah man I was there, got great footage of the people jumping a guy"
    What a narcissistic society it has become.  Some people only see the world through their iPhone camera.
    Post edited by PJPOWER on
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 28,602
    What the hell were they arguing about?
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 8,588
    PJPOWER said:
    PJPOWER said:
    PJPOWER said:
    PJPOWER said:
    CM189191 said:
    brianlux said:
    Why were these considered OK?

    I'm thinking someone was just trolling.  I doubt these people even knew that it was a Russian flag.
    The irony is thick this morning.
    This is kind of an old story, right?
    Irony never gets old but it's sometimes lost.
    Speaking of irony, did you see this?
    https://mobile.twitter.com/UncleChangNYC/status/899373007621246976?ref_src=twsrc^tfw&ref_url=https://www.youngcons.com/blm-protesters-confront-antifa-at-rally-for-wearing-masks-watch-how-guy-responds/
    This is "new" irony!
    I love it that everyone films it and never really participates.

    "yeah man I was there, got great footage of the people jumping a guy"
    What a narcissistic society it has become.  Some people only see the world through their iPhone camera.
    "Let's not get involved" was always something I heard from old people. 

  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 8,588

    It's amazing to me how the GOP (which is supposed to be this patriotic, pro-military, wrapped in the flag party) wants to endorse the confederate movement which took up arms AGAINST the United States.


    It's amazing to me how the GOP (which is supposed to be this patriotic, pro-military, wrapped in the flag party) wants to endorse the confederate movement which took up arms AGAINST the United States.


    Attempting to slow dwindling white privilege is pretty much central to the GOP agenda now. 
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 35,808
    brianlux said:
    OK, let's try this again.  Here's the problem I have with this whole tearing down monuments and statues things.  What I'm hearing is that a bunch of people from another culture (yes, us Yankees and Westerners and Canadians and whatnot are of another culture) want to go in and tell Southerners what they should do to eradicate their past.  Now that might not be a bad thing if the intention is to eradicate the seething evil of racism that lies underneath what those monuments and statues stand for but does anyone think for one minute that going down there and saying, "Fuck you, we're tearing your shit down," is going to change anyone's mind about the underlying illness of racism?  Come on, really?

    What if someone came up to you and took something you value and replace it with what you think is right- is that going to go down well with you?  No, seriously, think about it.  And yeah, OK, erroneously you think this thing is cool but it's not but is some outsider beating down your door and telling you you're full of shit going to change your mind about JACK? 

    Let's use some sense here.  This is not how you change shit.  It never works.  It's like many years ago when I was pissing my life away on alcohol and bad living habits and my folks were giving me shit for it.  Hey, guess what, did that set me straight?  How do you suppose I reacted to that? Yeah, I drank more.  Groovy.

    NOT!
    again, Brian, no one is saying "eradicate your past". Keep the statues as historical reminders in a museum or something of the like. we're saying it's not cool to have statues of men that fought a war, among other things, to preserve their right to ENSLAVE AND OWN BLACK PEOPLE. statues are there to celebrate these people. should they be celebrated? imagine being a black person in the south and having to walk past that statue every single day on your way to work. how do you think that would feel?

    as a WHITE CANADIAN it would disgust me. it still blows my mind that the Dukes of Hazzard had a car with the rebel flag and it was called the General Lee. Back when I watched it, I had zero idea what that meant. Friends of mine had rebel flag back patches on their jean jackets. None of us knew. It's quite surprising no adults seemed to have any issue with it back then. 

    no one truly believes that tearing down statues is going to eradicate racism, or even put a dent in it. but it does show future generations that past mistakes are not to be celebrated, but learned from. 

    Darwinspeed, all. 

    Cheers,

    HFD




  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 28,602
    ^Amen
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,596
    brianlux said:
    OK, let's try this again.  Here's the problem I have with this whole tearing down monuments and statues things.  What I'm hearing is that a bunch of people from another culture (yes, us Yankees and Westerners and Canadians and whatnot are of another culture) want to go in and tell Southerners what they should do to eradicate their past.  Now that might not be a bad thing if the intention is to eradicate the seething evil of racism that lies underneath what those monuments and statues stand for but does anyone think for one minute that going down there and saying, "Fuck you, we're tearing your shit down," is going to change anyone's mind about the underlying illness of racism?  Come on, really?

    What if someone came up to you and took something you value and replace it with what you think is right- is that going to go down well with you?  No, seriously, think about it.  And yeah, OK, erroneously you think this thing is cool but it's not but is some outsider beating down your door and telling you you're full of shit going to change your mind about JACK? 

    Let's use some sense here.  This is not how you change shit.  It never works.  It's like many years ago when I was pissing my life away on alcohol and bad living habits and my folks were giving me shit for it.  Hey, guess what, did that set me straight?  How do you suppose I reacted to that? Yeah, I drank more.  Groovy.

    NOT!
    again, Brian, no one is saying "eradicate your past". Keep the statues as historical reminders in a museum or something of the like. we're saying it's not cool to have statues of men that fought a war, among other things, to preserve their right to ENSLAVE AND OWN BLACK PEOPLE. statues are there to celebrate these people. should they be celebrated? imagine being a black person in the south and having to walk past that statue every single day on your way to work. how do you think that would feel?

    as a WHITE CANADIAN it would disgust me. it still blows my mind that the Dukes of Hazzard had a car with the rebel flag and it was called the General Lee. Back when I watched it, I had zero idea what that meant. Friends of mine had rebel flag back patches on their jean jackets. None of us knew. It's quite surprising no adults seemed to have any issue with it back then. 

    no one truly believes that tearing down statues is going to eradicate racism, or even put a dent in it. but it does show future generations that past mistakes are not to be celebrated, but learned from. 

    I agree!  If I were black dude and had to walk past a Gen. Lee statue I would hate it.  Yes, let's put them in museums.

    OK, now to try again to explain my argument (and at this point I have to plead ineptness and stupidity because apparently I totally suck at explaining myself.  Hey, I'm my own worst critic.  I can deal!) 

    Here's an example of what I mean:    I walk by an effigy of a hanged outlaw on Main Street in Placverville, California every time I go to work.  The nickname for Placerville is "Hangtown".  I hate that.  It offends me.  I would rather we had the nickname that my daughter-in-law came up with: "Heart of the Gold Country".  Sweet! 

    So what should I do?  Demand that the fuckers that like having a representation of a man dying a gruesome death by choking with a rope around his neck (barbaric!) as something that represents who we are as a town?  That won't fly.  Sneak in at night and cut him down?  I would get caught and end up in jail.  Can't do any good there.  Tell the people who like having the hanged man up there that they are stupid ignorant fools?  Not going to help! 

    No, here's what I do.  EVERY single time I walk by that dude and see a tourist taking a picture of him I look up, point to him and say, "Someday, Hanged Man, you will be free!"  You should see the look on peoples faces.  They stop.  They think. 

    This may not be everybody's  way and I'm not suggesting all of you or any one of you in particular says nasty things to Southerners, but I do get a lot of hateful vibe here at times (I'm not looking at anyone) and I'm suggesting an alternative to going in and telling people what to do.

    Is it a weak solution?  Maybe.  Is it worth at least considering?  I don't know.  Maybe no one sees what I'm getting at.  
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ON Posts: 8,931
    brianlux said:
    brianlux said:
    OK, let's try this again.  Here's the problem I have with this whole tearing down monuments and statues things.  What I'm hearing is that a bunch of people from another culture (yes, us Yankees and Westerners and Canadians and whatnot are of another culture) want to go in and tell Southerners what they should do to eradicate their past.  Now that might not be a bad thing if the intention is to eradicate the seething evil of racism that lies underneath what those monuments and statues stand for but does anyone think for one minute that going down there and saying, "Fuck you, we're tearing your shit down," is going to change anyone's mind about the underlying illness of racism?  Come on, really?

    What if someone came up to you and took something you value and replace it with what you think is right- is that going to go down well with you?  No, seriously, think about it.  And yeah, OK, erroneously you think this thing is cool but it's not but is some outsider beating down your door and telling you you're full of shit going to change your mind about JACK? 

    Let's use some sense here.  This is not how you change shit.  It never works.  It's like many years ago when I was pissing my life away on alcohol and bad living habits and my folks were giving me shit for it.  Hey, guess what, did that set me straight?  How do you suppose I reacted to that? Yeah, I drank more.  Groovy.

    NOT!
    again, Brian, no one is saying "eradicate your past". Keep the statues as historical reminders in a museum or something of the like. we're saying it's not cool to have statues of men that fought a war, among other things, to preserve their right to ENSLAVE AND OWN BLACK PEOPLE. statues are there to celebrate these people. should they be celebrated? imagine being a black person in the south and having to walk past that statue every single day on your way to work. how do you think that would feel?

    as a WHITE CANADIAN it would disgust me. it still blows my mind that the Dukes of Hazzard had a car with the rebel flag and it was called the General Lee. Back when I watched it, I had zero idea what that meant. Friends of mine had rebel flag back patches on their jean jackets. None of us knew. It's quite surprising no adults seemed to have any issue with it back then. 

    no one truly believes that tearing down statues is going to eradicate racism, or even put a dent in it. but it does show future generations that past mistakes are not to be celebrated, but learned from. 

    I agree!  If I were black dude and had to walk past a Gen. Lee statue I would hate it.  Yes, let's put them in museums.

    OK, now to try again to explain my argument (and at this point I have to plead ineptness and stupidity because apparently I totally suck at explaining myself.  Hey, I'm my own worst critic.  I can deal!) 

    Here's an example of what I mean:    I walk by an effigy of a hanged outlaw on Main Street in Placverville, California every time I go to work.  The nickname for Placerville is "Hangtown".  I hate that.  It offends me.  I would rather we had the nickname that my daughter-in-law came up with: "Heart of the Gold Country".  Sweet! 

    So what should I do?  Demand that the fuckers that like having a representation of a man dying a gruesome death by choking with a rope around his neck (barbaric!) as something that represents who we are as a town?  That won't fly.  Sneak in at night and cut him down?  I would get caught and end up in jail.  Can't do any good there.  Tell the people who like having the hanged man up there that they are stupid ignorant fools?  Not going to help! 

    No, here's what I do.  EVERY single time I walk by that dude and see a tourist taking a picture of him I look up, point to him and say, "Someday, Hanged Man, you will be free!"  You should see the look on peoples faces.  They stop.  They think. 

    This may not be everybody's  way and I'm not suggesting all of you or any one of you in particular says nasty things to Southerners, but I do get a lot of hateful vibe here at times (I'm not looking at anyone) and I'm suggesting an alternative to going in and telling people what to do.

    Is it a weak solution?  Maybe.  Is it worth at least considering?  I don't know.  Maybe no one sees what I'm getting at.  
    I like this a lot, Brian. I believe in wearing your scars, and telling the stories of how you got them. I do understand both sides (removal and not), though.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,596
    benjs said:
    brianlux said:
    brianlux said:
    OK, let's try this again.  Here's the problem I have with this whole tearing down monuments and statues things.  What I'm hearing is that a bunch of people from another culture (yes, us Yankees and Westerners and Canadians and whatnot are of another culture) want to go in and tell Southerners what they should do to eradicate their past.  Now that might not be a bad thing if the intention is to eradicate the seething evil of racism that lies underneath what those monuments and statues stand for but does anyone think for one minute that going down there and saying, "Fuck you, we're tearing your shit down," is going to change anyone's mind about the underlying illness of racism?  Come on, really?

    What if someone came up to you and took something you value and replace it with what you think is right- is that going to go down well with you?  No, seriously, think about it.  And yeah, OK, erroneously you think this thing is cool but it's not but is some outsider beating down your door and telling you you're full of shit going to change your mind about JACK? 

    Let's use some sense here.  This is not how you change shit.  It never works.  It's like many years ago when I was pissing my life away on alcohol and bad living habits and my folks were giving me shit for it.  Hey, guess what, did that set me straight?  How do you suppose I reacted to that? Yeah, I drank more.  Groovy.

    NOT!
    again, Brian, no one is saying "eradicate your past". Keep the statues as historical reminders in a museum or something of the like. we're saying it's not cool to have statues of men that fought a war, among other things, to preserve their right to ENSLAVE AND OWN BLACK PEOPLE. statues are there to celebrate these people. should they be celebrated? imagine being a black person in the south and having to walk past that statue every single day on your way to work. how do you think that would feel?

    as a WHITE CANADIAN it would disgust me. it still blows my mind that the Dukes of Hazzard had a car with the rebel flag and it was called the General Lee. Back when I watched it, I had zero idea what that meant. Friends of mine had rebel flag back patches on their jean jackets. None of us knew. It's quite surprising no adults seemed to have any issue with it back then. 

    no one truly believes that tearing down statues is going to eradicate racism, or even put a dent in it. but it does show future generations that past mistakes are not to be celebrated, but learned from. 

    I agree!  If I were black dude and had to walk past a Gen. Lee statue I would hate it.  Yes, let's put them in museums.

    OK, now to try again to explain my argument (and at this point I have to plead ineptness and stupidity because apparently I totally suck at explaining myself.  Hey, I'm my own worst critic.  I can deal!) 

    Here's an example of what I mean:    I walk by an effigy of a hanged outlaw on Main Street in Placverville, California every time I go to work.  The nickname for Placerville is "Hangtown".  I hate that.  It offends me.  I would rather we had the nickname that my daughter-in-law came up with: "Heart of the Gold Country".  Sweet! 

    So what should I do?  Demand that the fuckers that like having a representation of a man dying a gruesome death by choking with a rope around his neck (barbaric!) as something that represents who we are as a town?  That won't fly.  Sneak in at night and cut him down?  I would get caught and end up in jail.  Can't do any good there.  Tell the people who like having the hanged man up there that they are stupid ignorant fools?  Not going to help! 

    No, here's what I do.  EVERY single time I walk by that dude and see a tourist taking a picture of him I look up, point to him and say, "Someday, Hanged Man, you will be free!"  You should see the look on peoples faces.  They stop.  They think. 

    This may not be everybody's  way and I'm not suggesting all of you or any one of you in particular says nasty things to Southerners, but I do get a lot of hateful vibe here at times (I'm not looking at anyone) and I'm suggesting an alternative to going in and telling people what to do.

    Is it a weak solution?  Maybe.  Is it worth at least considering?  I don't know.  Maybe no one sees what I'm getting at.  
    I like this a lot, Brian. I believe in wearing your scars, and telling the stories of how you got them. I do understand both sides (removal and not), though.
    Thanks Ben.

    I like hearing all our stories.  Even the ones I disagree with.  I might be naive in thinking this, but I do believe if everybody told their story and were willing to listen the other's story (I have to become better at doing that) we might get it together. 
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • mickeyratmickeyrat up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,429
    did slavery never happen yet? how about that war? did it never happen yet?
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    edited August 2017
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER In Yo Face Posts: 6,499
    JC29856 said:
    slip sliding away

    http://amp.usatoday.com/story/592458001/

    ESPN pulls announcer Robert Lee off Virginia game in reaction to Charlottesville protests


    http://deadspin.com/welp-espn-shot-itself-in-the-dick-1798338890/amp
    Hahaha, truly pathetic if true...
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 35,808
    JC29856 said:
    all he has to do is add his middle initial to his stage name. as long as it's not E. or go by Bobby from now on. 

    this really is stupid though. 
    Darwinspeed, all. 

    Cheers,

    HFD




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