A timeline of the genesis of the Confederate sites shows two notable spikes. One comes around the turn of the 20th century, just after Plessy v. Ferguson, and just as many Southern states were establishing repressive race laws. The second runs from the mid-1950s to the mid-1960s—the peak of the civil-rights movement. In other words, the erection of Confederate monuments has been a way to perform cultural resistance to black equality.
So you're telling me it's different than a statue of Lenin in Seattle?
Yes, one Lenin statue in Seattle is different than 1,500 monuments scattered throughout our nation.
Also, one apple is different than 1,500 oranges.
WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020AT 07/07/2020
(Wasn't sure if the article belonged on this thread or the Idiot Thread)
With my own two eyes I have seen "the south will rise again" banners and shirts from people whom think there is another war coming.
I have witnessed people talk just like the man in that interview and they really do believe that a civil war is going to happen.
This has been getting worse within the last couple of years.
It's not as uncommon as you'd think unfortunately.
My dad (from new jersey) went to school in the south. when he heard the phrase "the south will rise again" he would reply with, "yes because shit floats." lol
Why would cities put up statues of losing, treasonous, traitors anyway? I'm not from the South, and have no family in the South, so the concept is completely foreign to me. A hostile group took up arms against my country and got their asses kicked, and yet they still are allowed to memorialize their heroes in public places? Stick them in a private museum where others can go see them if they'd like, but honor them in town squares and city centers? Nope. I'm content to have them relegated to history books and Hollywood movies.
I'm telling you, it's the only time in history that the losers were able to put up statues and fly their battle flag lol. I seriously can't think of another example. When I lived in spain I don't recall seeing any statues of the moors.
Why would cities put up statues of losing, treasonous, traitors anyway? I'm not from the South, and have no family in the South, so the concept is completely foreign to me. A hostile group took up arms against my country and got their asses kicked, and yet they still are allowed to memorialize their heroes in public places? Stick them in a private museum where others can go see them if they'd like, but honor them in town squares and city centers? Nope. I'm content to have them relegated to history books and Hollywood movies.
I'm telling you, it's the only time in history that the losers were able to put up statues and fly their battle flag lol. I seriously can't think of another example. When I lived in spain I don't recall seeing any statues of the moors.
I meant within the country lol. It s not like this is in Vietnam.
you meant wars within the country? well no wonder you couldn't think of any more!
I"m saying that there are no monuments (that I can think of) from a losing country within the victorious country except for the confederate states of america. (did i explain that right?) no arvn monuments in vietnam no german monuments in russia no moorish monuments (moops lol) in spain etc imagine seeing a nazi flag on top of a government building in mosow just like we had confederate flags flying above government buildings in the south? craziness. you would never see that statue you pointed out from the vietnam veterans memorial in downtown hanoi.
A timeline of the genesis of the Confederate sites shows two notable spikes. One comes around the turn of the 20th century, just after Plessy v. Ferguson, and just as many Southern states were establishing repressive race laws. The second runs from the mid-1950s to the mid-1960s—the peak of the civil-rights movement. In other words, the erection of Confederate monuments has been a way to perform cultural resistance to black equality.
So you're telling me it's different than a statue of Lenin in Seattle?
Yes, one Lenin statue in Seattle is different than 1,500 monuments scattered throughout our nation.
Also, one apple is different than 1,500 oranges.
I know. My comment was sarcasm referencing back to someone else's comment suggesting the Lenin statue was similar.
A timeline of the genesis of the Confederate sites shows two notable spikes. One comes around the turn of the 20th century, just after Plessy v. Ferguson, and just as many Southern states were establishing repressive race laws. The second runs from the mid-1950s to the mid-1960s—the peak of the civil-rights movement. In other words, the erection of Confederate monuments has been a way to perform cultural resistance to black equality.
So you're telling me it's different than a statue of Lenin in Seattle?
Yes, one Lenin statue in Seattle is different than 1,500 monuments scattered throughout our nation.
Also, one apple is different than 1,500 oranges.
I know. My comment was sarcasm referencing back to someone else's comment suggesting the Lenin statue was similar.
WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020AT 07/07/2020
Are there any other southerners here? I'm almost afraid to post. I was born and raised in VA - my family's been in VA since the 1600s. There is a lot of pride in VA history and family - there's a lot of stuff that sucks though. The fact that there was a white high school (yes, Robert E. Lee) and a black high school (yes, Booker T. Washington) into the 1960s. A black and a white cemetery. A black and a white funeral home. I was very lucky to be raised by a liberal family who pointed out that those things were bad.
I don't think tearing down statues does anything. It seems like a slippery slope to me. If you tear down a Robert E. Lee statue, do you tear down a statue of Jefferson? (Yep, I went to UVa, too.)
I'd like to hear from other southerners about how they feel. I'm fascinated by history and I don't think erasing it is the answer. Put a statue of Robert E. Lee in a museum and explain what he did. Teach the true story of Jefferson at UVa - how he did great things, but he also raped his slaves. But erasing things shouldn't make them disappear. We need to learn from past mistakes, don't we?
In case it's not clear, I don't think the south should have won the Civil War and I hate the Alt-Right and it makes me puke to think that Richard Spencer and Jason Kessler (the guy who organized the C'ville rally) both went to UVa.
Are there any other southerners here? I'm almost afraid to post. I was born and raised in VA - my family's been in VA since the 1600s. There is a lot of pride in VA history and family - there's a lot of stuff that sucks though. The fact that there was a white high school (yes, Robert E. Lee) and a black high school (yes, Booker T. Washington) into the 1960s. A black and a white cemetery. A black and a white funeral home. I was very lucky to be raised by a liberal family who pointed out that those things were bad.
I don't think tearing down statues does anything. It seems like a slippery slope to me. If you tear down a Robert E. Lee statue, do you tear down a statue of Jefferson? (Yep, I went to UVa, too.)
I'd like to hear from other southerners about how they feel. I'm fascinated by history and I don't think erasing it is the answer. Put a statue of Robert E. Lee in a museum and explain what he did. Teach the true story of Jefferson at UVa - how he did great things, but he also raped his slaves. But erasing things shouldn't make them disappear. We need to learn from past mistakes, don't we?
In case it's not clear, I don't think the south should have won the Civil War and I hate the Alt-Right and it makes me puke to think that Richard Spencer and Jason Kessler (the guy who organized the C'ville rally) both went to UVa.
speak your peace, new perspectives are welcome
I'm not a southerner but I know that 260,000 people died, 110,000 were civilians, most Southern statues were erected by 1920 and I'm guessing that some if not most were to honor and memorialize those lost.
Are there any other southerners here? I'm almost afraid to post. I was born and raised in VA - my family's been in VA since the 1600s. There is a lot of pride in VA history and family - there's a lot of stuff that sucks though. The fact that there was a white high school (yes, Robert E. Lee) and a black high school (yes, Booker T. Washington) into the 1960s. A black and a white cemetery. A black and a white funeral home. I was very lucky to be raised by a liberal family who pointed out that those things were bad.
I don't think tearing down statues does anything. It seems like a slippery slope to me. If you tear down a Robert E. Lee statue, do you tear down a statue of Jefferson? (Yep, I went to UVa, too.)
I'd like to hear from other southerners about how they feel. I'm fascinated by history and I don't think erasing it is the answer. Put a statue of Robert E. Lee in a museum and explain what he did. Teach the true story of Jefferson at UVa - how he did great things, but he also raped his slaves. But erasing things shouldn't make them disappear. We need to learn from past mistakes, don't we?
In case it's not clear, I don't think the south should have won the Civil War and I hate the Alt-Right and it makes me puke to think that Richard Spencer and Jason Kessler (the guy who organized the C'ville rally) both went to UVa.
Putting up statues to honor traitors is a past mistake, and now is a time to acknowledge those past mistakes. Jefferson wasn't a traitor. (these false equivalencies are starting to feel like a way to maintain status quo). This isn't exclusive to the south, either. I'm born and raised Indiana, a hot bed of Klan activity and still was when I was growing up. This is definitely not a Southern problem but a national one.
Last year I read the Ron Chernow bio of Hamilton and then I read his bio of Washington. I remember reading about the American Revolution in middle school and it was so boring. But reading these books as an adult was amazing (and not boring). I don't think I realized how much of a divide there always was b't the North and South. The southern states always wanted to be separate and didn't want to be part of the union. I'd love to read a good book on what happened in the years leading to the Civil War.
There's a confederate section in the cemetery that was near my house growing up and we used to play on the cannons. (In high school we'd go to the cemetery and get high.) (Oh, there's a separate cemetery in my hometown for the "Yankees," called the National Cemetery.)
Are there any other southerners here? I'm almost afraid to post. I was born and raised in VA - my family's been in VA since the 1600s. There is a lot of pride in VA history and family - there's a lot of stuff that sucks though. The fact that there was a white high school (yes, Robert E. Lee) and a black high school (yes, Booker T. Washington) into the 1960s. A black and a white cemetery. A black and a white funeral home. I was very lucky to be raised by a liberal family who pointed out that those things were bad.
I don't think tearing down statues does anything. It seems like a slippery slope to me. If you tear down a Robert E. Lee statue, do you tear down a statue of Jefferson? (Yep, I went to UVa, too.)
I'd like to hear from other southerners about how they feel. I'm fascinated by history and I don't think erasing it is the answer. Put a statue of Robert E. Lee in a museum and explain what he did. Teach the true story of Jefferson at UVa - how he did great things, but he also raped his slaves. But erasing things shouldn't make them disappear. We need to learn from past mistakes, don't we?
In case it's not clear, I don't think the south should have won the Civil War and I hate the Alt-Right and it makes me puke to think that Richard Spencer and Jason Kessler (the guy who organized the C'ville rally) both went to UVa.
speak your peace, new perspectives are welcome
I'm not a southerner but I know that 260,000 people died, 110,000 were civilians, most Southern statues were erected by 1920 and I'm guessing that some if not most were to honor and memorialize those lost.
over 600,000 american soldiers died in the american civil war.
Are there any other southerners here? I'm almost afraid to post. I was born and raised in VA - my family's been in VA since the 1600s. There is a lot of pride in VA history and family - there's a lot of stuff that sucks though. The fact that there was a white high school (yes, Robert E. Lee) and a black high school (yes, Booker T. Washington) into the 1960s. A black and a white cemetery. A black and a white funeral home. I was very lucky to be raised by a liberal family who pointed out that those things were bad.
I don't think tearing down statues does anything. It seems like a slippery slope to me. If you tear down a Robert E. Lee statue, do you tear down a statue of Jefferson? (Yep, I went to UVa, too.)
I'd like to hear from other southerners about how they feel. I'm fascinated by history and I don't think erasing it is the answer. Put a statue of Robert E. Lee in a museum and explain what he did. Teach the true story of Jefferson at UVa - how he did great things, but he also raped his slaves. But erasing things shouldn't make them disappear. We need to learn from past mistakes, don't we?
In case it's not clear, I don't think the south should have won the Civil War and I hate the Alt-Right and it makes me puke to think that Richard Spencer and Jason Kessler (the guy who organized the C'ville rally) both went to UVa.
Are there any other southerners here? I'm almost afraid to post. I was born and raised in VA - my family's been in VA since the 1600s. There is a lot of pride in VA history and family - there's a lot of stuff that sucks though. The fact that there was a white high school (yes, Robert E. Lee) and a black high school (yes, Booker T. Washington) into the 1960s. A black and a white cemetery. A black and a white funeral home. I was very lucky to be raised by a liberal family who pointed out that those things were bad.
I don't think tearing down statues does anything. It seems like a slippery slope to me. If you tear down a Robert E. Lee statue, do you tear down a statue of Jefferson? (Yep, I went to UVa, too.)
I'd like to hear from other southerners about how they feel. I'm fascinated by history and I don't think erasing it is the answer. Put a statue of Robert E. Lee in a museum and explain what he did. Teach the true story of Jefferson at UVa - how he did great things, but he also raped his slaves. But erasing things shouldn't make them disappear. We need to learn from past mistakes, don't we?
In case it's not clear, I don't think the south should have won the Civil War and I hate the Alt-Right and it makes me puke to think that Richard Spencer and Jason Kessler (the guy who organized the C'ville rally) both went to UVa.
speak your peace, new perspectives are welcome
I'm not a southerner but I know that 260,000 people died, 110,000 were civilians, most Southern statues were erected by 1920 and I'm guessing that some if not most were to honor and memorialize those lost.
over 600,000 american soldiers died in the american civil war.
Are there any other southerners here? I'm almost afraid to post. I was born and raised in VA - my family's been in VA since the 1600s. There is a lot of pride in VA history and family - there's a lot of stuff that sucks though. The fact that there was a white high school (yes, Robert E. Lee) and a black high school (yes, Booker T. Washington) into the 1960s. A black and a white cemetery. A black and a white funeral home. I was very lucky to be raised by a liberal family who pointed out that those things were bad.
I don't think tearing down statues does anything. It seems like a slippery slope to me. If you tear down a Robert E. Lee statue, do you tear down a statue of Jefferson? (Yep, I went to UVa, too.)
I'd like to hear from other southerners about how they feel. I'm fascinated by history and I don't think erasing it is the answer. Put a statue of Robert E. Lee in a museum and explain what he did. Teach the true story of Jefferson at UVa - how he did great things, but he also raped his slaves. But erasing things shouldn't make them disappear. We need to learn from past mistakes, don't we?
In case it's not clear, I don't think the south should have won the Civil War and I hate the Alt-Right and it makes me puke to think that Richard Spencer and Jason Kessler (the guy who organized the C'ville rally) both went to UVa.
Taking down statues DOES NOT EQUAL erasing.
Statues of generals and colonels DOES NOT EQUAL celebratinh stealing owning raping and murdering people, LEGALLY
Post edited by JC29856 on
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,751
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,751
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
without getting into federal land federal funding and upkeep, what I and the article are suggesting is a national monument similar to the Vietnam war memorial as an example.
There's two arguments that keep coming up that I don't agree with. 1. The argument that what losing country has statues displayed about the war in another country. That might be true with most wars, but this is different. The civil war was all America, on both sides. History writes it as 600,000 Americans dead. They can divide it into which side they fought on, but still over half a million Americans died. So it isn't a foreign country. What country would you propose a memorial to those fallen soldiers be if not in the southern US?
2. They were traitors/lost the war so why have memorials. Winning or losing has nothing to do with the sacrifice many made. The average soldier wasn't a traitor. They didn't car about slavery and were forced to fight for a cause and war they didn't care about. I even saw someone say the only heroes of the south were the conscientious objectors. Really? That probably wasn't even a phrase back then. You'd get shot or hung for treason or desertion if you didn't fight. Some compared the confederate soldier statue to Germany putting up statues of Hitler. Not even close. I'm not sure if they exist, but I would have zero issue with Germany putting up memorials and statues of fallen German soldiers of WWII who were forced to fight and give up their lives for someone else's cause.
Lastly, if you're so against the South and shame anyone for remembering their fallen, who do you support, the North? You mean, the part that still didn't declare blacks a full human and paid them much less? The side that holds the deadly a huge success, you know the march that went from Atlanta to Savannah that raped and killed everyone in their path. So we need to remember that side, and forget the South?
It was a horrible time for our country, and lots of horrible things happened. But we can still remember the fallen, on both sides.
There's two arguments that keep coming up that I don't agree with. 1. The argument that what losing country has statues displayed about the war in another country. That might be true with most wars, but this is different. The civil war was all America, on both sides. History writes it as 600,000 Americans dead. They can divide it into which side they fought on, but still over half a million Americans died. So it isn't a foreign country. What country would you propose a memorial to those fallen soldiers be if not in the southern US?
2. They were traitors/lost the war so why have memorials. Winning or losing has nothing to do with the sacrifice many made. The average soldier wasn't a traitor. They didn't car about slavery and were forced to fight for a cause and war they didn't care about. I even saw someone say the only heroes of the south were the conscientious objectors. Really? That probably wasn't even a phrase back then. You'd get shot or hung for treason or desertion if you didn't fight. Some compared the confederate soldier statue to Germany putting up statues of Hitler. Not even close. I'm not sure if they exist, but I would have zero issue with Germany putting up memorials and statues of fallen German soldiers of WWII who were forced to fight and give up their lives for someone else's cause.
Lastly, if you're so against the South and shame anyone for remembering their fallen, who do you support, the North? You mean, the part that still didn't declare blacks a full human and paid them much less? The side that holds the deadly a huge success, you know the march that went from Atlanta to Savannah that raped and killed everyone in their path. So we need to remember that side, and forget the South?
It was a horrible time for our country, and lots of horrible things happened. But we can still remember the fallen, on both sides.
Most of the statues in the South are of people that did not fall during the civil war.
will myself to find a home, a home within myself we will find a way, we will find our place
There's two arguments that keep coming up that I don't agree with. 1. The argument that what losing country has statues displayed about the war in another country. That might be true with most wars, but this is different. The civil war was all America, on both sides. History writes it as 600,000 Americans dead. They can divide it into which side they fought on, but still over half a million Americans died. So it isn't a foreign country. What country would you propose a memorial to those fallen soldiers be if not in the southern US?
2. They were traitors/lost the war so why have memorials. Winning or losing has nothing to do with the sacrifice many made. The average soldier wasn't a traitor. They didn't car about slavery and were forced to fight for a cause and war they didn't care about. I even saw someone say the only heroes of the south were the conscientious objectors. Really? That probably wasn't even a phrase back then. You'd get shot or hung for treason or desertion if you didn't fight. Some compared the confederate soldier statue to Germany putting up statues of Hitler. Not even close. I'm not sure if they exist, but I would have zero issue with Germany putting up memorials and statues of fallen German soldiers of WWII who were forced to fight and give up their lives for someone else's cause.
Lastly, if you're so against the South and shame anyone for remembering their fallen, who do you support, the North? You mean, the part that still didn't declare blacks a full human and paid them much less? The side that holds the deadly a huge success, you know the march that went from Atlanta to Savannah that raped and killed everyone in their path. So we need to remember that side, and forget the South?
It was a horrible time for our country, and lots of horrible things happened. But we can still remember the fallen, on both sides.
Most of the statues in the South are of people that did not fall during the civil war.
True, but the video and news story that started this thread was just a random/average confederate soldier. So many of the comments that followed were about not memorializing the everyday soldier if they fought on the loosing side.
There's two arguments that keep coming up that I don't agree with. 1. The argument that what losing country has statues displayed about the war in another country. That might be true with most wars, but this is different. The civil war was all America, on both sides. History writes it as 600,000 Americans dead. They can divide it into which side they fought on, but still over half a million Americans died. So it isn't a foreign country. What country would you propose a memorial to those fallen soldiers be if not in the southern US?
How about Russia? I honestly don't care. As I've said, memorialize them in a private museum. Build a wall of remembrance on a private structure. But don't build statues and monuments to them in public places, especially town squares.
2. They were traitors/lost the war so why have memorials. Winning or losing has nothing to do with the sacrifice many made. The average soldier wasn't a traitor. They didn't car about slavery and were forced to fight for a cause and war they didn't care about. I even saw someone say the only heroes of the south were the conscientious objectors. Really? That probably wasn't even a phrase back then. You'd get shot or hung for treason or desertion if you didn't fight. Some compared the confederate soldier statue to Germany putting up statues of Hitler. Not even close. I'm not sure if they exist, but I would have zero issue with Germany putting up memorials and statues of fallen German soldiers of WWII who were forced to fight and give up their lives for someone else's cause.
Lastly, if you're so against the South and shame anyone for remembering their fallen, who do you support, the North? You mean, the part that still didn't declare blacks a full human and paid them much less? The side that holds the deadly a huge success, you know the march that went from Atlanta to Savannah that raped and killed everyone in their path. So we need to remember that side, and forget the South?
It was a horrible time for our country, and lots of horrible things happened. But we can still remember the fallen, on both sides.
They were traitors and committed treason as soon as they took up arms and fought under a different flag. The minute they did that, they were no longer fellow citizens. The side that fought under the Stars and Stripes was the side that was fighting for my country. The other side were enemies of the state. I support the side that represented my country and flag.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
They were traitors and committed treason as soon as they took up arms and fought under a different flag. The minute they did that, they were no longer fellow citizens. The side that fought under the Stars and Stripes was the side that was fighting for my country. The other side were enemies of the state. I support the side that represented my country and flag.
But they had no choice. The vast majority of the confederate army didn't own slaves and didn't care to fight in this war. Okay, they fit the legal definition of treason by taking up arms and fighting under another flag. But what other choice was there? Be hung by the south for refusing to fight? They were mostly poor farmers. The large wealthy families who didn't have to fight were the ones who benefited from slavery and wanted the war, and forced the poor citizens to do their fighting for them. All I'm trying to say is much of that army didn't want to be there or believe in what they were fighting for. I agree, I also support the side with the stars and stripes and those who fought against it were enemies of the state. But that doesn't mean we can't recognize the sacrifice of the worst time in our history and memorialize those who fell on both sides. As with many wars, the only difference between two opposing soldiers is where they were born.
There's two arguments that keep coming up that I don't agree with. 1. The argument that what losing country has statues displayed about the war in another country. That might be true with most wars, but this is different. The civil war was all America, on both sides. History writes it as 600,000 Americans dead. They can divide it into which side they fought on, but still over half a million Americans died. So it isn't a foreign country. What country would you propose a memorial to those fallen soldiers be if not in the southern US?
How about Russia? I honestly don't care. As I've said, memorialize them in a private museum. Build a wall of remembrance on a private structure. But don't build statues and monuments to them in public places, especially town squares.
2. They were traitors/lost the war so why have memorials. Winning or losing has nothing to do with the sacrifice many made. The average soldier wasn't a traitor. They didn't car about slavery and were forced to fight for a cause and war they didn't care about. I even saw someone say the only heroes of the south were the conscientious objectors. Really? That probably wasn't even a phrase back then. You'd get shot or hung for treason or desertion if you didn't fight. Some compared the confederate soldier statue to Germany putting up statues of Hitler. Not even close. I'm not sure if they exist, but I would have zero issue with Germany putting up memorials and statues of fallen German soldiers of WWII who were forced to fight and give up their lives for someone else's cause.
Lastly, if you're so against the South and shame anyone for remembering their fallen, who do you support, the North? You mean, the part that still didn't declare blacks a full human and paid them much less? The side that holds the deadly a huge success, you know the march that went from Atlanta to Savannah that raped and killed everyone in their path. So we need to remember that side, and forget the South?
It was a horrible time for our country, and lots of horrible things happened. But we can still remember the fallen, on both sides. REPLY They were traitors and committed treason as soon as they took up arms
and fought under a different flag. The minute they did that, they were
no longer fellow citizens. The side that fought under the Stars and
Stripes was the side that was fighting for my country. The other side
were enemies of the state. I support the side that represented my
country and flag.
Around 1860 was the "Union of States" voluntary or a requirement? Same time was secession legal or illegal?
There's two arguments that keep coming up that I don't agree with. 1. The argument that what losing country has statues displayed about the war in another country. That might be true with most wars, but this is different. The civil war was all America, on both sides. History writes it as 600,000 Americans dead. They can divide it into which side they fought on, but still over half a million Americans died. So it isn't a foreign country. What country would you propose a memorial to those fallen soldiers be if not in the southern US?
How about Russia? I honestly don't care. As I've said, memorialize them in a private museum. Build a wall of remembrance on a private structure. But don't build statues and monuments to them in public places, especially town squares.
2. They were traitors/lost the war so why have memorials. Winning or losing has nothing to do with the sacrifice many made. The average soldier wasn't a traitor. They didn't car about slavery and were forced to fight for a cause and war they didn't care about. I even saw someone say the only heroes of the south were the conscientious objectors. Really? That probably wasn't even a phrase back then. You'd get shot or hung for treason or desertion if you didn't fight. Some compared the confederate soldier statue to Germany putting up statues of Hitler. Not even close. I'm not sure if they exist, but I would have zero issue with Germany putting up memorials and statues of fallen German soldiers of WWII who were forced to fight and give up their lives for someone else's cause.
Lastly, if you're so against the South and shame anyone for remembering their fallen, who do you support, the North? You mean, the part that still didn't declare blacks a full human and paid them much less? The side that holds the deadly a huge success, you know the march that went from Atlanta to Savannah that raped and killed everyone in their path. So we need to remember that side, and forget the South?
It was a horrible time for our country, and lots of horrible things happened. But we can still remember the fallen, on both sides. REPLY They were traitors and committed treason as soon as they took up arms
and fought under a different flag. The minute they did that, they were
no longer fellow citizens. The side that fought under the Stars and
Stripes was the side that was fighting for my country. The other side
were enemies of the state. I support the side that represented my
country and flag.
Around 1860 was the "Union of States" voluntary or a requirement? Same time was secession legal or illegal?
Of course it was legal. That doesn't mean that it was without consequence. Plenty of legal things have consequences. The consequence of the Confederates doing what they did was that they became traitors to the nation.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
There's two arguments that keep coming up that I don't agree with. 1. The argument that what losing country has statues displayed about the war in another country. That might be true with most wars, but this is different. The civil war was all America, on both sides. History writes it as 600,000 Americans dead. They can divide it into which side they fought on, but still over half a million Americans died. So it isn't a foreign country. What country would you propose a memorial to those fallen soldiers be if not in the southern US?
2. They were traitors/lost the war so why have memorials. Winning or losing has nothing to do with the sacrifice many made. The average soldier wasn't a traitor. They didn't car about slavery and were forced to fight for a cause and war they didn't care about. I even saw someone say the only heroes of the south were the conscientious objectors. Really? That probably wasn't even a phrase back then. You'd get shot or hung for treason or desertion if you didn't fight. Some compared the confederate soldier statue to Germany putting up statues of Hitler. Not even close. I'm not sure if they exist, but I would have zero issue with Germany putting up memorials and statues of fallen German soldiers of WWII who were forced to fight and give up their lives for someone else's cause.
Lastly, if you're so against the South and shame anyone for remembering their fallen, who do you support, the North? You mean, the part that still didn't declare blacks a full human and paid them much less? The side that holds the deadly a huge success, you know the march that went from Atlanta to Savannah that raped and killed everyone in their path. So we need to remember that side, and forget the South?
It was a horrible time for our country, and lots of horrible things happened. But we can still remember the fallen, on both sides.
I'm with you that these were Americans who died and there should be memorials to the fallen. After all, history defines it as a civil war. The soldiers did not suddenly become un-American the day of secession. However, I have always found the south's fixation with the war to be strange. I've driven through a lot of North Carolina and there are Civil War memorials everywhere. I mean everywhere. I found this to be true in Virginia as well. While many of the memorials do honor the dead it is clear that a large portion are not there to serve this purpose.
There were several factors that led to the Civil War but it is the slavery issue that will endure as the root cause. This reason alone makes it somewhat controversial to have these monuments. If you visit Berlin there are zero markers above Hitler's bunker. You could walk over it and not know. The government knew that even putting a tiny plaque marking it as Hitler's Bunker would eventually turn into a memorial for neo-nazis.
If someone said there’s a statue of Lenin in the Fremont neighborhood you’d expect it to be of John Lennon, not Vladimir.
But for a neighborhood whose motto is “De Libertas Quirkas,” the freedom to be peculiar, it’s not a surprise.
The path to Seattle from Poprad, Slovakia, for this 8-ton bronze of the Communist revolutionary occurred because Lewis Carpenter of Issaquah saw it, bought it and brought it back after the collapse of the Soviet bloc.
He died in 1994, but the family still owns it, and Jon Hegeman, with the Fremont Arts Council, says it’s still for sale for $250,000 or best offer.
The 16-foot Lenin, striding boldly and backed by flames and firearms, still evokes strong responses, though he died 91 years ago.
Lenin was responsible for untold deaths, and many equate him with Hitler and Stalin. Vandals often paint the statue’s hands blood red.
He joins more than 60 other art installations in Fremont, including the Troll, the Guidepost marking the “center of the universe,” “Waiting for the Interurban” and the Rocket.
Fremontologist and neighborhood expert Kirby Lindsay Lanay says, “I hate it in the sense it upsets people. I understand their pain. I like art that makes you feel good.”
Mike Clark with the Fremont Arts Council says, “It’s perfectly Fremont.” At first he was opposed to the statue and “now, totally indifferent. It’s super popular and part of the (Fremont) shtick.”
Lindsay Laney says, “Love him or hate him, he’s as much a part of Fremont as the rest of our art. We dress him up in a tutu for gay pride.
“Taco del Mar made a giant (tinfoil wrapped) burrito for him to hold, but it looked like a doobie.”
There are few places in America where a statue of Lenin would find a home, and now the Communist revolutionary looks out over a capitalistic commercial business district.
Hegeman says if Lenin sells, he’d like to see another statue in its place.
Imagine John Lennon.
And, today Vlad's statue is back in the local news...
I'm at the Lenin statue counter protesting the protestors if you want to swing by say hi give me the finger etc. Black shirt black jacket, look like typical pj fan
some protestors are beginning to leave, they seem like nice enough people. one guy is filming.
I'm at the Lenin statue counter protesting the protestors if you want to swing by say hi give me the finger etc. Black shirt black jacket, look like typical pj fan
some protestors are beginning to leave, they seem like nice enough people. one guy is filming.
Comments
Also, one apple is different than 1,500 oranges.
I"m saying that there are no monuments (that I can think of) from a losing country within the victorious country except for the confederate states of america. (did i explain that right?)
no arvn monuments in vietnam
no german monuments in russia
no moorish monuments (moops lol) in spain
etc
imagine seeing a nazi flag on top of a government building in mosow just like we had confederate flags flying above government buildings in the south? craziness.
you would never see that statue you pointed out from the vietnam veterans memorial in downtown hanoi.
I don't think tearing down statues does anything. It seems like a slippery slope to me. If you tear down a Robert E. Lee statue, do you tear down a statue of Jefferson? (Yep, I went to UVa, too.)
I'd like to hear from other southerners about how they feel. I'm fascinated by history and I don't think erasing it is the answer. Put a statue of Robert E. Lee in a museum and explain what he did. Teach the true story of Jefferson at UVa - how he did great things, but he also raped his slaves. But erasing things shouldn't make them disappear. We need to learn from past mistakes, don't we?
In case it's not clear, I don't think the south should have won the Civil War and I hate the Alt-Right and it makes me puke to think that Richard Spencer and Jason Kessler (the guy who organized the C'ville rally) both went to UVa.
I'm not a southerner but I know that 260,000 people died, 110,000 were civilians, most Southern statues were erected by 1920 and I'm guessing that some if not most were to honor and memorialize those lost.
There's a confederate section in the cemetery that was near my house growing up and we used to play on the cannons. (In high school we'd go to the cemetery and get high.) (Oh, there's a separate cemetery in my hometown for the "Yankees," called the National Cemetery.)
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/12/06/opinion/sunday/america-needs-a-national-slavery-monument.html
Baltimore Removes Confederate Statues One Day After Voting On Issue http://n.pr/2vIftKz
http://freedomcenter.org/
http://whitneyplantation.com/
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
1. The argument that what losing country has statues displayed about the war in another country.
That might be true with most wars, but this is different. The civil war was all America, on both sides. History writes it as 600,000 Americans dead. They can divide it into which side they fought on, but still over half a million Americans died. So it isn't a foreign country. What country would you propose a memorial to those fallen soldiers be if not in the southern US?
2. They were traitors/lost the war so why have memorials.
Winning or losing has nothing to do with the sacrifice many made. The average soldier wasn't a traitor. They didn't car about slavery and were forced to fight for a cause and war they didn't care about. I even saw someone say the only heroes of the south were the conscientious objectors. Really? That probably wasn't even a phrase back then. You'd get shot or hung for treason or desertion if you didn't fight. Some compared the confederate soldier statue to Germany putting up statues of Hitler. Not even close. I'm not sure if they exist, but I would have zero issue with Germany putting up memorials and statues of fallen German soldiers of WWII who were forced to fight and give up their lives for someone else's cause.
Lastly, if you're so against the South and shame anyone for remembering their fallen, who do you support, the North? You mean, the part that still didn't declare blacks a full human and paid them much less? The side that holds the deadly a huge success, you know the march that went from Atlanta to Savannah that raped and killed everyone in their path. So we need to remember that side, and forget the South?
It was a horrible time for our country, and lots of horrible things happened. But we can still remember the fallen, on both sides.
we will find a way, we will find our place
They were traitors and committed treason as soon as they took up arms and fought under a different flag. The minute they did that, they were no longer fellow citizens. The side that fought under the Stars and Stripes was the side that was fighting for my country. The other side were enemies of the state. I support the side that represented my country and flag.
But they had no choice. The vast majority of the confederate army didn't own slaves and didn't care to fight in this war. Okay, they fit the legal definition of treason by taking up arms and fighting under another flag. But what other choice was there? Be hung by the south for refusing to fight? They were mostly poor farmers. The large wealthy families who didn't have to fight were the ones who benefited from slavery and wanted the war, and forced the poor citizens to do their fighting for them.
All I'm trying to say is much of that army didn't want to be there or believe in what they were fighting for. I agree, I also support the side with the stars and stripes and those who fought against it were enemies of the state. But that doesn't mean we can't recognize the sacrifice of the worst time in our history and memorialize those who fell on both sides.
As with many wars, the only difference between two opposing soldiers is where they were born.
There were several factors that led to the Civil War but it is the slavery issue that will endure as the root cause. This reason alone makes it somewhat controversial to have these monuments. If you visit Berlin there are zero markers above Hitler's bunker. You could walk over it and not know. The government knew that even putting a tiny plaque marking it as Hitler's Bunker would eventually turn into a memorial for neo-nazis.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/14/us/confederate-statue-pulled-down-north-carolina-trnd/index.html
Cooper said he will also urge the Legislature to defeat a bill that grants immunity from liability to motorists who strike protesters.
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
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Fremont's Lenin Statue Is Currently Under Siege By Trump Supporters and An Alt-Right Troll
Black shirt black jacket, look like typical pj fan
some protestors are beginning to leave, they seem like nice enough people. one guy is filming.
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©