There ain't gonna be any middle anymore...

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Comments

  • know1know1 Posts: 6,762
    ryan198 wrote:
    what if it's actually the rich who are taking from the poor in the first place? given the fact that min wage hasn't risen in years while CEO pay has gone up to 431:1 or something like that is not cool. also part of getting out of poverty in a capitalist system is to have the resources (capital) to be able to afford those things that the very rich have (food/housing/clothing/school/etc.). It's not as if the poor aren't working 67% of all families on welfare have at least one parent working full time.

    What if it's the rich who are already keeping more people from being poor by providing jobs and buying products?
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    know1 wrote:
    What if it's the rich who are already keeping more people from being poor by providing jobs and buying products?


    what if the poverty gap is spreading like wildfire...oh...it is!!

    sure, some do...but overall they become rich by exploiting their labor.
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • I would suggest that if you graph the disparity of wealth vs income per capita, the trend both contemporary and throughout all of history would find the less disparate the wealth the wealthier the national entity.
  • ryan198ryan198 Posts: 1,025
    El_Kabong wrote:
    what if the poverty gap is spreading like wildfire...oh...it is!!

    sure, some do...but overall they become rich by exploiting their labor.

    i think he ignored the fact that 67% of families on welfare (nearly all of which are under the poverty line) have at least one person working full time at one of those jobs your rich people provide. I believe that number comes from a study cited in:
    Grossberg, L. (2005). Caught in the Crossfire.
  • ryan198ryan198 Posts: 1,025
    I would suggest that if you graph the disparity of wealth vs income per capita, the trend both contemporary and throughout all of history would find the less disparate the wealth the wealthier the national entity.
    and? are you saying it's a good thing to have more and more poor people for a richer country? maybe it speaks to the greed of those in power and the power of the greedy.
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    ryan198 wrote:
    i think he ignored the fact that 67% of families on welfare (nearly all of which are under the poverty line) have at least one person working full time at one of those jobs your rich people provide. I believe that number comes from a study cited in:
    Grossberg, L. (2005). Caught in the Crossfire.


    i know, i've posted those numbers along w/ the number of children living in poverty before...they don't care...they'll give you some theoires that don't work across the board (in reality anyway)

    sad how cold and callous some can be. personally, i'd sacrifice if it meant everyone would have what they need...not others, they'll hold onto it and cry about having to pay for public education!
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • ryan198 wrote:
    and? are you saying it's a good thing to have more and more poor people for a richer country? maybe it speaks to the greed of those in power and the power of the greedy.

    Not at all.

    Economies with a more disparate distribution (wider income gap) are poorer overall (per capita) The Latin American countries have large disparities of income. The liberal Western democracies do have large disparities but not so large. Authoritarian countries and Communist ones effectively have higher disparity of incomes than do nonauthoritarian countries because a smaller segment is in control of all wealth.
  • ryan198ryan198 Posts: 1,025
    gotcha ... i misunderstood, blame pot.
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,762
    El_Kabong wrote:
    i know, i've posted those numbers along w/ the number of children living in poverty before...they don't care...they'll give you some theoires that don't work across the board (in reality anyway)

    sad how cold and callous some can be. personally, i'd sacrifice if it meant everyone would have what they need...not others, they'll hold onto it and cry about having to pay for public education!

    So how much time or money do you give to the poor? Before you start criticising some people, you might be surprised to find out they give and do more than you.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,762
    El_Kabong wrote:
    what if the poverty gap is spreading like wildfire...oh...it is!!

    sure, some do...but overall they become rich by exploiting their labor.

    The gap is not the problem. The number of people living in poverty is the problem. We need to focus on that and not on the other end.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • AbuskedtiAbuskedti Posts: 1,917
    know1 wrote:
    The gap is not the problem. The number of people living in poverty is the problem. We need to focus on that and not on the other end.

    "The other end" is the cause. They make the laws, they impose their will, they create the maze, they build the walls, they make the rules, they build and nurture the gap - it is their best interest to do so, and our infatuation with their freedom empowers them.

    many have said that racism come from ignorance.. that the racist doesn't really see himself as bad or a racist - but its a result of their upbringing, and some education - opportunity for enlightenment - and they can change

    the very same things holds true for the poor. They don't know that they are being duped, they don't understand that their habits are their barrier - they need a little education and opportunity for enlightenment and they can change..

    but people like you like to call their ignorance - lazy and lay the blame on them that they don't understand the social maze created by those in power - and the fact that the maze is complex enough to change to beat down those that beging to recover.

    The fact is, "the other end" will suffer at better distribution of resources - and increases numbers capable of competing.

    The poor are oppressed and it is a deliberate, though sub conscious (for the most part) punishment imposed upon those that are down - by the middle and upper class.

    The poor are the Indians, the Jews, the slaves.. and we are the oppressors.
  • ryan198ryan198 Posts: 1,025
    Abuskedti wrote:
    "The other end" is the cause. They make the laws, they impose their will, they create the maze, they build the walls, they make the rules, they build and nurture the gap - it is their best interest to do so, and our infatuation with their freedom empowers them.

    many have said that racism come from ignorance.. that the racist doesn't really see himself as bad or a racist - but its a result of their upbringing, and some education - opportunity for enlightenment - and they can change

    the very same things holds true for the poor. They don't know that they are being duped, they don't understand that their habits are their barrier - they need a little education and opportunity for enlightenment and they can change..

    but people like you like to call their ignorance - lazy and lay the blame on them that they don't understand the social maze created by those in power - and the fact that the maze is complex enough to change to beat down those that beging to recover.

    The fact is, "the other end" will suffer at better distribution of resources - and increases numbers capable of competing.

    The poor are oppressed and it is a deliberate, though sub conscious (for the most part) punishment imposed upon those that are down - by the middle and upper class.

    The poor are the Indians, the Jews, the slaves.. and we are the oppressors.

    The key thing here is that the poor aren't stupid unthinking dupes, they do the necessary things to survive. So tell me this if you have a choice to work at Wal-Mart for 5.15/hr with no bennies, or no work, take welfare, and take care of your family at home what do you do? The crazy thing is that this laziness of the poor is so powerful that many people choose the former! Yet when they choose the later, a choice that you'd think that if conservatives who were for family values would support, they get called lazy!?!? How, then do you want to help those in poeverty (working or not) take care of their families?
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,762
    I didn't call anyone lazy in this forum. I'm saying that focusing on the gap, or unfairly taking from the rich isn't the problem or the answer.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • ryan198ryan198 Posts: 1,025
    know1 wrote:
    I didn't call anyone lazy in this forum. I'm saying that focusing on the gap, or unfairly taking from the rich isn't the problem or the answer.
    how can you not say that right now in this world the rich are unfairly taking from the poor?
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,762
    ryan198 wrote:
    how can you not say that right now in this world the rich are unfairly taking from the poor?

    In some cases, I'm sure they are, but you can't just make a blanket statement like that.

    Also, "unfairly" is highly subjective and also a matter of opinion and perspective.

    Furthermore, you, I and everyone else on this board are very much included in that rich class when you look at it in terms of the world. Does that mean you and I are unfairly taking from the poor?

    Here's a different way of looking at the subjectiveness of "unfair": How can you say that the government in the U.S. is not taking unfairly from the rich. After all, taxing someone at a higher rate than someone else is unfair, no?
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • sonicreducersonicreducer Posts: 713
    know1 wrote:

    Here's a different way of looking at the subjectiveness of "unfair": How can you say that the government in the U.S. is not taking unfairly from the rich. After all, taxing someone at a higher rate than someone else is unfair, no?


    well, according to aaron russo and many other researchers none of us should have to pay an income tax.
    you're a real hooker. im gonna slap you in public.
    ~Ron Burgundy
  • ryan198ryan198 Posts: 1,025
    i don't necessarily think that taxing higher is unfair...when all the rules of society are set up to benefit the rich then their should be some reparations.
  • AbuskedtiAbuskedti Posts: 1,917
    ryan198 wrote:
    The key thing here is that the poor aren't stupid unthinking dupes, they do the necessary things to survive. So tell me this if you have a choice to work at Wal-Mart for 5.15/hr with no bennies, or no work, take welfare, and take care of your family at home what do you do? The crazy thing is that this laziness of the poor is so powerful that many people choose the former! Yet when they choose the later, a choice that you'd think that if conservatives who were for family values would support, they get called lazy!?!? How, then do you want to help those in poeverty (working or not) take care of their families?

    Well, its not as simple as a choice. Many people don't know how to "fit in" a working enviornment... and don't understand how to manage their money.. and how to manage a life... they fail and believe themselves incapable. When I say they need education - for the most part that consists of some mentoring - some explaing of how things work - and how people exist toghether in a workplace and what is necessary to survive on $5.25 per hour and how to improve and advance.. That is a skill - and requires quite a bit of knowledge - and those skills are needed every step of the way.. without that mentoring and understanding - they fail and fall deeper.

    We need to educate the poor - for free - and feed them - teach them the importance of self reliance and the benefits and the tools needed to get there. It wouldn't be all that expensive or hard... it can easily be part of the school system - but people need to reach out to them - but instead the teachers and councelors - sit back and blame and call them lazy and fill their squares to keep their own jobs.. there in no incentives for educators to reach out and help these communities - its easier to demonize them, call them names, and leave them in the place we so inacurately tell ourselves they created - when it those that are sliding along in the mainstream that created it
  • ryan198ryan198 Posts: 1,025
    Abuskedti wrote:
    Well, its not as simple as a choice. Many people don't know how to "fit in" a working enviornment... and don't understand how to manage their money.. and how to manage a life... they fail and believe themselves incapable. When I say they need education - for the most part that consists of some mentoring - some explaing of how things work - and how people exist toghether in a workplace and what is necessary to survive on $5.25 per hour and how to improve and advance.. That is a skill - and requires quite a bit of knowledge - and those skills are needed every step of the way.. without that mentoring and understanding - they fail and fall deeper.

    We need to educate the poor - for free - and feed them - teach them the importance of self reliance and the benefits and the tools needed to get there. It wouldn't be all that expensive or hard... it can easily be part of the school system - but people need to reach out to them - but instead the teachers and councelors - sit back and blame and call them lazy and fill their squares to keep their own jobs.. there in no incentives for educators to reach out and help these communities - its easier to demonize them, call them names, and leave them in the place we so inacurately tell ourselves they created - when it those that are sliding along in the mainstream that created it
    point taken...as of now there is incentive for teachers...it's called No Child Left Behind, and the incentive is to teach to the Standardized Tests which have always been shown to benefit/reify the needs, and knowledge sets of white upper-middle class children. Further by teaching to the tests it serves to stifle any critical language a student could possible learn in school in return for positivist assumptions about Truth (with a capital t) rather than many truths or angles with which to understand a situation.
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,762
    ryan198 wrote:
    i don't necessarily think that taxing higher is unfair...when all the rules of society are set up to benefit the rich then their should be some reparations.

    How are "all the rules of society" set up to benefit the rich?
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,762
    well, according to aaron russo and many other researchers none of us should have to pay an income tax.

    I don't think we should either. I think we should pay consumption taxes instead - but just enough to pay for the basic necessities of government.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • ryan198ryan198 Posts: 1,025
    know1 wrote:
    How are "all the rules of society" set up to benefit the rich?

    Ok we live in a capitalist society which at its very essence is based upon the exploitation of the labor class by the ruling class. No i am not a marxist (more a post-marxist) but his description of economics still works today. Capitalism is based on gaining profit by receiving more economic value for production than the economic value used for production. So for someone working at 7/11 for $5.15/hr+all the operating costs, that 7/11 owner must make more per/hr than (s)he is paying for it. Thus to be successful in the system of capital the rich necessarily must benefit from the poor.

    Simulataneously, in contemporary America we are rapidly moving towards the privatization of everything, (electricity, health, food, school, etc.). As such those who can afford more receive better stuff, and therefore have a much better standard of living.

    So, for example, here in Baltimore if I were born into an upper-class family living in the suburbs, I would have no worries about paying my 75% higher BGE bill, maintaining my rapidly rising Blue Cross/Blue Shield expenses, purchasing and eating healthy food, and going to Friends, or Notre Dame or whatever getting the best education money can buy. Moreover by going to these schools, eating healthier, etc. I would be able to live longer, get into Harvard, Yale, Duke, etc. and get an upper-class education which is moving towards a state whereby my parents are actually consuming the diploma. In other words, I don't necessarily have to work to get the C b/c mom and dad paid Yale (W, John Kerry) enough money so that I don't have to worry about it. Then with my upper-class education I can chose whatever I want to do to with my life.

    Conversely, if I were born into a poor, inner-city family which is on welfare, cannot afford electricity so that it's only possible to study from the textbooks from the 1950's that my public school can't afford to update during the daytime -the only problem with that is that I can't study during that time b/c I'm working at McDonald's to help ends meet. I can only afford the time (b/c there are few inner-city grocery stores) and money (wholefoods is fucking expensive), to eat what's on the McDonald's menu, and can't afford the police protection, health care, and/or travel expenses to go to that cheap community college which has 1/100th the resources (including great teachers) that I could get at the upper class colleges...how can I move up? How can I get out of poverty?

    On top of all that being poor and from an urban setting in all probability makes me an ethinic minority that the police target for petty theft, meanwhile the stupid rich white kid is running our country, telling me about family values, killing my friends and family members in Iraq b/c we were told that was the only way to a college education, while lining his and his buddies pockets with oil money.

    Now tell me how the rules of society don't benefit the rich.
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,762
    ryan198 wrote:
    Ok we live in a capitalist society which at its very essence is based upon the exploitation of the labor class by the ruling class. No i am not a marxist (more a post-marxist) but his description of economics still works today. Capitalism is based on gaining profit by receiving more economic value for production than the economic value used for production. So for someone working at 7/11 for $5.15/hr+all the operating costs, that 7/11 owner must make more per/hr than (s)he is paying for it. Thus to be successful in the system of capital the rich necessarily must benefit from the poor.

    Simulataneously, in contemporary America we are rapidly moving towards the privatization of everything, (electricity, health, food, school, etc.). As such those who can afford more receive better stuff, and therefore have a much better standard of living.

    So, for example, here in Baltimore if I were born into an upper-class family living in the suburbs, I would have no worries about paying my 75% higher BGE bill, maintaining my rapidly rising Blue Cross/Blue Shield expenses, purchasing and eating healthy food, and going to Friends, or Notre Dame or whatever getting the best education money can buy. Moreover by going to these schools, eating healthier, etc. I would be able to live longer, get into Harvard, Yale, Duke, etc. and get an upper-class education which is moving towards a state whereby my parents are actually consuming the diploma. In other words, I don't necessarily have to work to get the C b/c mom and dad paid Yale (W, John Kerry) enough money so that I don't have to worry about it. Then with my upper-class education I can chose whatever I want to do to with my life.

    Conversely, if I were born into a poor, inner-city family which is on welfare, cannot afford electricity so that it's only possible to study from the textbooks from the 1950's that my public school can't afford to update during the daytime -the only problem with that is that I can't study during that time b/c I'm working at McDonald's to help ends meet. I can only afford the time (b/c there are few inner-city grocery stores) and money (wholefoods is fucking expensive), to eat what's on the McDonald's menu, and can't afford the police protection, health care, and/or travel expenses to go to that cheap community college which has 1/100th the resources (including great teachers) that I could get at the upper class colleges...how can I move up? How can I get out of poverty?

    On top of all that being poor and from an urban setting in all probability makes me an ethinic minority that the police target for petty theft, meanwhile the stupid rich white kid is running our country, telling me about family values, killing my friends and family members in Iraq b/c we were told that was the only way to a college education, while lining his and his buddies pockets with oil money.

    Now tell me how the rules of society don't benefit the rich.

    I think you rambled all across the board there and brought in many things that have nothing to do with all the rules of society benefitting the rich. The rules are the same, the rich have a competitive advantage, but the rules are the same. Well, actually, if you count taxes, the rules actually go more against the rich than the poor.

    I believe capitalism and privatization of things LOWERS the prices for all. That's the whole point of it. I'm not sure where you get that privatization raises costs. Health insurance and healthcare costs are a great example of how NOT privatizing things has driven the cost up due to no competition. If we are moving toward privatization, that should help the lower class.

    If businesses were set up so that the owners made less money than they paid their employees, how would they function.

    Isn't it easier for minorities and lower class people to be accepted into schools and receive scholarships and financial assistance? There's another advantage for you.

    The fact is, there is incentive and opportunity for all to make progress and improve their situation. It's when you throw up your hands, and complain that it's all not fair and that you weren't told or taught or taken by the hand and lead to what you needed to improve that you have no chance.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • ryan198ryan198 Posts: 1,025
    in no case ever has the privatization of anything worked to cheapen the cost...look at electricity especially in B'more, LA, etc.
  • know1 wrote:
    I believe capitalism and privatization of things LOWERS the prices for all. That's the whole point of it. I'm not sure where you get that privatization raises costs. Health insurance and healthcare costs are a great example of how NOT privatizing things has driven the cost up due to no competition. If we are moving toward privatization, that should help the lower class.
    Yeah. Um. Health Insurance would NOT be a good example there. Most people are painfully aware that premiums are rising way above the inflation rate in this country right now. What you fail to acknowlege is that when privatization spurs competition it does lower costs overall, however, when deregulation allows for unchecked consolidation within an industry (such as healthcare), costs increase because of lack of competition. Healthcare, Banking and the Oil Industry are great examples of this... so are companies such as Ticketmaster and Clearchannel.

    Make your life a mission - not an intermission. - Arnold Gasglow
  • boxwine_in_hellboxwine_in_hell Posts: 1,263
    The real problem I believe is with perception. For some reason in the last 10-20 years, the terms Liberal and Consevative have become extremely pejorative. Shades of gray have been eliminated from our political scene. It's human nature I guess. I happen to lean more toward what most would consider the values of the Democratic party and when I hear the word "Conservative" my hackles immediately and quite irrationally raise. My mind is flooded with the image of a Pro Life, bible thumping, homophobic, NRA member that listens to Rush Limbaugh on his lunch break and comes home to dinner with Fox News playing in the background. Stereotypes of these nature are every bit as dangerous as racial stereotypes and all of us as human beings are obligated to think beyond the knee jerk reaction to each other and focus on the good of our government and our society. Unfortunately the number of altruistic politicians are about as prevalent as the number of altruistic CEO's. Money and power are the real root of the problems my friends and it is a perversion that does not choose political party lines or idealogies. Money and power trump all. (no pun intended toward the Donald!) This is why promotion of grassroot thought and action by websites like this and groups of people like PJ fans are so important. People only can be shit on for so long before they realize it isn't the rain. And when that realization finally becomes collective....look the hell out....it will be explosive.
    one foot in the door
    the other foot in the gutter
    sweet smell that they adore
    I think I'd rather smother
    -The Replacements-
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