Jesus, Johnny and Jews

hailhailkchailhailkc Posts: 582
edited July 2006 in A Moving Train
I'm getting so sick of it. It seems like every debate around here, and within our media laden world, focuses on forcing the audience member to make a choice between being on one side of the debate or another. Has anyone else noticed this trend within the last...oh, I don't know...TWENTY FREAKIN' YEARS OR SO?!?! It's like every opinion we have has to be justified, proven, tested and given a stamped seal of approval. All of this stuff is SUCH bullshit. There is so much middle ground on these issues, yet, we're all forced to choose a side for some reason instead of talking about the issue. And yes, I contribute to the rhetoric too, I know that, but I just needed to get this off my chest.

(All of these examples apply to both liberals and conservatives...so feel free to flip the statement around to fit your desired idealogy. And I'm not saying any of these examples are right or wrong, I'm just using them as good examples of what I'm talking about.)

Here's what I mean if you're not following me...

Jesus was DEFINATELY a liberal.

Eddie hates conservatives because he said "Fuck 'em".

How can conservatives listen to Pearl Jam?

Gay people shouldn't have the right to get married.

Capitalism is the vehicle of greed.

Social programs are for lazy people.

How did Ed and Johnny Ramone ever get along?!

The Jews are terrorists.

The Palestenians are terrorists.






You get my drift...

I think people like mammasan, Kenny Olav, and El Kabong...amongst many others...will really understand what I'm getting at.
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Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Purple HawkPurple Hawk Posts: 1,300
    hailhailkc wrote:
    forcing the audience member

    this assumes the audience member is passive, objective and independent. This is rare, politically inclined people seek out sources they tend to agree with.
    And you ask me what I want this year
    And I try to make this kind and clear
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
    Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
    And desire and love and empty things
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,219
    The "Media" doesn't give you opinions.. unless you lack opinions and parrot the opinions of people in that box of fear in your living room. You base your opinions upon your experiences in the real world and the perception you have while sorting through the mountains of information and mis-information that's out there.
    Like, I base my opinions on the local environment from my years of seeing acres upon acres of rolling hills, shaved and terraced into ugly boxes that none of my family or friends can afford... watching Mother Nature consume them with the natural cycle of brush fires and have the owners tap the local resources to put them back up.
    And you don't convince anyone that your opinion is right... you express your opinion and the reasoning used to come up with them.
    ...
    And from what I saw... the year 2000 was the culmination of the division of America into two, seperate and distinct camps... or Teams. On the Right... in the Red Uniforms... The Republican Conservatives (and their Mascot, Gop The Elephant). And on the Left side of your screen... wearing the visitors Blue Uniforms... The Democrat Liberals (and thier mascot, Bleeding Heart he Donkey).
    This is the dumbing down of Americans, who are prtty fucking inept when it comes to government and politics, but knows a hell of a lot about sports. You pick teams and you NEVER switch sides... no matter how poorly your team's game plan is... all that matters is that you win the coin toss that puts the ball in your court.
    While we're busy trying to butt fuck the other Americans on the other team.. the fucking Europeans and Chinese are taking over.
    We live in the times of the American Nero and the place is going up in flames and we are too stupid to see that because we are too focused of fucking over fellow Americans or have lapsed into a hypnotic trance by the false 'reality' that is broadcast into our living rooms.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    this assumes the audience member is passive, objective and independent. This is rare, politically inclined people seek out sources they tend to agree with.
    I don't think that's necessarily true. Many politically inclined people seek out sources they disagree with, sometimes to try and see things from a different point of view, and sometimes to provide themselves with debate ammunition.

    As to hhkc's post, I agree it's tiresome to read over and over again about baby-killers, and how all Muslims are terrorists, and Ed hates conservatives, and all capitalists are greedy fucks, and the Jews are saintly, and the Jews are evil, and on and on. It seems to me there's been an increase in this sort of thing around here lately.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • Purple HawkPurple Hawk Posts: 1,300
    hippiemom wrote:
    I don't think that's necessarily true. Many politically inclined people seek out sources they disagree with, sometimes to try and see things from a different point of view, and sometimes to provide themselves with debate ammunition.

    This is true, I listen to Air America for this very reason. My point is, is that the two opposing views that you see on 24 news segments aren't forcing anybody to do anything. People that watch those programs (as opposed to reruns of "I love the 80's") generally understand politics have have an opinion before watching.
    And you ask me what I want this year
    And I try to make this kind and clear
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
    Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
    And desire and love and empty things
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    This is true, I listen to Air America for this very reason. My point is, is that the two opposing views that you see on 24 news segments aren't forcing anybody to do anything. People that watch those programs (as opposed to reruns of "I love the 80's") generally understand politics have have an opinion before watching.


    do any news channels really give both views? i think the majority of ppl want their news summed up for them in 30 second sound bites and take it as holy truth b/c they 'saw it on tv'

    there's been plenty of times someone would say 'if that were true it would be all over the news!' the 'news' networks aren't interested at all in giving you factual information or both sides. they're there to push their agenda (like Faux Op/Ed, the highest rated cable news network and also proven liars) and/or are sensationalistic and worried about advertising space (like numerous articles were written linking cigarettes and cancer since at least the 70's...but no magazine would print them b/c cigarettes were big advertisors)
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • kenny olavkenny olav Posts: 3,322
    hailhailkc wrote:
    I think people like mammasan, Kenny Olav, and El Kabong...amongst many others...will really understand what I'm getting at.

    It is difficult to decide whether or not I really understand. If I agree with you, it must mean I'm taking the conservative side and I therefore must accept Bush as my fuhrer. I don't agree with you, it must mean I'm an America-hating terrorist. But I will try to answer, being as nuanced as possible: I agree with whatever El Kabong thinks, but only if mammasan doesn't think it is "out of the mainstream".
  • hailhailkchailhailkc Posts: 582
    This is true, I listen to Air America for this very reason. My point is, is that the two opposing views that you see on 24 news segments aren't forcing anybody to do anything. People that watch those programs (as opposed to reruns of "I love the 80's") generally understand politics have have an opinion before watching.

    I didn't say the news or media was forcing anyone to do anything. I was trying to point out that many of the current ISSUES themselves are of a highly volatile nature...thus the issue itself is forcing the audience to seemingly choose a side. This "volatility" is nutured and fostered BY the media.

    I'm not saying the TV makes me think or do certain things just because Ann Coulter or Al Franken say so. What I'm saying is that we seem to have a rash of stupid issues that crop up daily that everyone seems to have to be on one side of, or another.

    Like...

    Smoking in a bar.

    Talking on a cell phone in the car.

    How you discipline your kids in public.

    Etc...

    It's more than just having an opinion nowadays. Every little topic is for some reason being turned into an abortion-esque tirade.
    MOSSAD NATO Alphabet Stations (E10)
    High Traffic ART EZI FTJ JSR KPA PCD SYN ULX VLB YHF
    Low Traffic CIO MIW
    Non Traffic ABC BAY FDU GBZ HNC NDP OEM ROV TMS ZWL
  • Divide and Conquer...worked wonders for centuries.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    hailhailkc wrote:
    What I'm saying is that we seem to have a rash of stupid issues that crop up daily that everyone seems to have to be on one side of, or another.

    Like...

    Smoking in a bar.

    this one is easy. i shouldn't have to be subjected to cigarette smoke. easy.
    you want to kill yourself, go right ahead, just don't try and take me with you.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,219
    hailhailkc wrote:
    I didn't say the news or media was forcing anyone to do anything. I was trying to point out that many of the current ISSUES themselves are of a highly volatile nature...thus the issue itself is forcing the audience to seemingly choose a side. This "volatility" is nutured and fostered BY the media.

    I'm not saying the TV makes me think or do certain things just because Ann Coulter or Al Franken say so. What I'm saying is that we seem to have a rash of stupid issues that crop up daily that everyone seems to have to be on one side of, or another.

    Like...

    Smoking in a bar.

    Talking on a cell phone in the car.

    How you discipline your kids in public.

    Etc...

    It's more than just having an opinion nowadays. Every little topic is for some reason being turned into an abortion-esque tirade.
    ...
    It's the age we live in. Everyone has always had a fucking opinion... but, with today's technology, we all get to express our fucking opinions to a global audience.
    And in America, it ALWAYS revolve around the political divide. The campaign strategists are looking for hot topic issues to fire up the speech writers and get something to distract the collective A.D.D. voters to punch the correct hole, thinking that they are making a difference. Why do you think that Gay Marriage was dragged out again? Now, it's Illegal Aliens, violent content in computer/video games, MySpace Pedophiles, Flag Burning, Church and State debates... they are probes to find out what issues will make for good campaign propaganda.
    If you buy into all of that crap, you really have no one else to blame but yourself. These so-called issues are not issues at all... they are cigar parlor topics that spur heated debate.
    The BIG issues remain... IRAQ, IRAQ and IRAQ... where Americans are getting fucking shot and and blown up. We are caught in the middle of a religious civil war where both sides are threats. And this is a vital strategic region... both economically and militarily. Forget about Gays trapsing off to get married or Jose taking away all the good busboy jobs... the issue is IRAQ. When our guys stop coming home in boxes or wheelchair... then, go after Adam and Steve's Wedding or Jose's job.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    hailhailkc wrote:
    I didn't say the news or media was forcing anyone to do anything. I was trying to point out that many of the current ISSUES themselves are of a highly volatile nature...thus the issue itself is forcing the audience to seemingly choose a side. This "volatility" is nutured and fostered BY the media.

    I'm not saying the TV makes me think or do certain things just because Ann Coulter or Al Franken say so. What I'm saying is that we seem to have a rash of stupid issues that crop up daily that everyone seems to have to be on one side of, or another.

    Like...

    Smoking in a bar.

    Talking on a cell phone in the car.

    How you discipline your kids in public.

    Etc...

    It's more than just having an opinion nowadays. Every little topic is for some reason being turned into an abortion-esque tirade.


    The main attraction - distraction
    got ya number than number than numb
    Empty ya pockets son; they got you thinkin that
    What ya need is what they sellin
    Make you think that buyin is rebellin
    From the theaters to malls on every shore
    Tha thin line between entertainment and war
    The frontline is everywhere, there'll be no shelter here
    Speilberg the nightmare works so push it far
    Amistad was a whip, the truth was feathered and tarred
    Memory erased, burned and scarred
    Trade in ya history for a VCR

    Cinema, simulated life, ill drama
    Fourth Reich culture - Americana
    Chained to the dream they got ya searchin for
    Tha thin line between entertainment and war

    There'll be no shelter here
    Tha frontline is everywhere

    Hospitals not profitable
    Yet market bulls got pockets full
    To advertise some hip disguise
    View tha world from American eyes
    Tha poor adore keep fiendin for more
    Tha thin line between entertainment and war
    They fix the need, develop the taste
    Buy their products or get laid to waste
    Coca-Cola is back in the veins of Saigon
    And Rambo too, he got a dope pair of Nikes on
    And Godzilla pure muthafuckin filler
    To keep ya eyes off the real killer

    Cinema, simulated life, ill drama
    Fourth Reich culture - Americana
    Chained to the dream they got ya searchin for
    Tha thin line between entertainment and war

    American eyes, American eyes....
    View the world from American eyes
    Bury the past, rob us blind
    And leave nothin behind

    Just stare
    Relive the nightmare.
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • even flow?even flow? Posts: 8,066
    Did you state in an earlier post that you were dating a Canadian lass with an open mind and she was getting the best of you? ;)

    Or are you slowly coming around? :)


    Glad to see things in the main stream are finally starting to get to you too.
    You've changed your place in this world!
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    El_Kabong wrote:
    The main attraction - distraction
    got ya number than number than numb
    Empty ya pockets son; they got you thinkin that
    What ya need is what they sellin
    Make you think that buyin is rebellin
    From the theaters to malls on every shore
    Tha thin line between entertainment and war
    The frontline is everywhere, there'll be no shelter here
    Speilberg the nightmare works so push it far
    Amistad was a whip, the truth was feathered and tarred
    Memory erased, burned and scarred
    Trade in ya history for a VCR

    Cinema, simulated life, ill drama
    Fourth Reich culture - Americana
    Chained to the dream they got ya searchin for
    Tha thin line between entertainment and war

    There'll be no shelter here
    Tha frontline is everywhere

    Hospitals not profitable
    Yet market bulls got pockets full
    To advertise some hip disguise
    View tha world from American eyes
    Tha poor adore keep fiendin for more
    Tha thin line between entertainment and war
    They fix the need, develop the taste
    Buy their products or get laid to waste
    Coca-Cola is back in the veins of Saigon
    And Rambo too, he got a dope pair of Nikes on
    And Godzilla pure muthafuckin filler
    To keep ya eyes off the real killer

    Cinema, simulated life, ill drama
    Fourth Reich culture - Americana
    Chained to the dream they got ya searchin for
    Tha thin line between entertainment and war

    American eyes, American eyes....
    View the world from American eyes
    Bury the past, rob us blind
    And leave nothin behind

    Just stare
    Relive the nightmare.

    gotta respect a little rage against the machine.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • Puck78Puck78 Posts: 737
    hailhailkc wrote:
    The Jews are terrorists.

    The Palestenians are terrorists.
    recently "muslims are terrorist" is a very popular sentence, here, sigh...
    www.amnesty.org
    www.amnesty.org.uk
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    hailhailkc wrote:

    It's more than just having an opinion nowadays. Every little topic is for some reason being turned into an abortion-esque tirade.

    i think this is exactly it. Everything now has to be sensationalized.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • soulsingingsoulsinging Posts: 13,208
    yeah, this is definitely getting more and more prevalent. i think john kerry was the epitome of it. i didnt like him and would have preferred jsut about anybody (except george bush) to him, but look at the whole flip-flopper thing. he tries to take a nuanced position on various issues and he's "indecisive" and weak. you'ev got to be bold and firm and unwavering in your black and white convictions these days.

    i've said it's the biggest problem in american politics: cheerleading. it's not about looking at both sides of an issues and trying to hammer out a compromise that works for the citizens, it's about making sure your team wins and looks stronger. do not compromise, do not accept any proposals of the opposition lest you seem weak, pick divisive issues to fire up your base to take the election, and make sure your party is in control. what you do once you're there is irrelevant. as long as you're on top and the donations keep rolling in, you're a "success."
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    hailhailkc wrote:
    I'm getting so sick of it. It seems like every debate around here, and within our media laden world, focuses on forcing the audience member to make a choice between being on one side of the debate or another. Has anyone else noticed this trend within the last...oh, I don't know...TWENTY FREAKIN' YEARS OR SO?!?! It's like every opinion we have has to be justified, proven, tested and given a stamped seal of approval. All of this stuff is SUCH bullshit. There is so much middle ground on these issues, yet, we're all forced to choose a side for some reason instead of talking about the issue. And yes, I contribute to the rhetoric too, I know that, but I just needed to get this off my chest.

    (All of these examples apply to both liberals and conservatives...so feel free to flip the statement around to fit your desired idealogy. And I'm not saying any of these examples are right or wrong, I'm just using them as good examples of what I'm talking about.)

    Here's what I mean if you're not following me...

    Jesus was DEFINATELY a liberal.

    Eddie hates conservatives because he said "Fuck 'em".

    How can conservatives listen to Pearl Jam?

    Gay people shouldn't have the right to get married.

    Capitalism is the vehicle of greed.

    Social programs are for lazy people.

    How did Ed and Johnny Ramone ever get along?!

    The Jews are terrorists.

    The Palestenians are terrorists.






    You get my drift...

    I think people like mammasan, Kenny Olav, and El Kabong...amongst many others...will really understand what I'm getting at.

    The media, politicians, and their lackies like to present the world as black and white and many of us know that that's simply not the case. The world and many of the issues we face today are so complex that this right or wrong approach is useless. It's like trying to fit the square peg in the round hole but they will continue to do this because it is benefial to them if the masses start to believe it. I think abook made a good point when she stated divide and conquer. If we are pointing fingers at each other that leaves no time to point fingers at the government. Unfortunetly I think that many Americans have started to take this approach which is not the healthiest way to a view the world.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    mammasan wrote:
    The media, politicians, and their lackies like to present the world as black and white and many of us know that that's simply not the case. The world and many of the issues we face today are so complex that this right or wrong approach is useless. It's like trying to fit the square peg in the round hole but they will continue to do this because it is benefial to them if the masses start to believe it. I think abook made a good point when she stated divide and conquer. If we are pointing fingers at each other that leaves no time to point fingers at the government. Unfortunetly I think that many Americans have started to take this approach which is not the healthiest way to a view the world.


    it's the same reason these arab countries suddenly cared about the plight of the palestinian AFTER Israel...or the reason ppl like the saudi's don't do anything about the religiouns nuts...having an enemy takes the heat and pressure off of them and their failings. it's not saudi arabia's fault, it's all the great satan america! and yes, i realize we have a lot of blame, but so do they.

    also the focus on these (what are basically) non-issues takes the attention away from other things that DO matter. why do they only care about flag burning and gay ppl getting married when it's election time?

    what's even crazier is how obvious the patterns are and yet so many still decide to play the game/charade of partisan politics. it's far easier for them to continue what they are doing if i say 'shut the fuck up hhkc, you're just a fuckin con!' and when i post he says 'yeah, like i'm gonna believe a crazy, whacko liberal!' it keeps us attacking each other instead of the issues and that's what they count on
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • rightonduderightondude Posts: 745
    hailhailkc wrote:

    Like...

    Smoking in a bar.

    Talking on a cell phone in the car.

    How you discipline your kids in public.

    Etc...

    It's more than just having an opinion nowadays. Every little topic is for some reason being turned into an abortion-esque tirade.

    overpopulation will be the end of us all...
  • cornnifercornnifer Posts: 2,130
    Divide and Conquer...worked wonders for centuries.

    I think this pretty much sums it up. It is, IMO pretty much all government and media generated. Keep the citizens ignorant and fighting amongst themselves, and we can do whatever the heck we want!!!
    "When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
  • Eliot RosewaterEliot Rosewater Posts: 2,684
    Kenny Olav wrote:
    I agree with whatever El Kabong thinks, but only if mammasan doesn't think it is "out of the mainstream".
    I seriously doubt I'll read anything funnier than this today....and it's only just begun.
  • Purple HawkPurple Hawk Posts: 1,300
    hailhailkc wrote:
    I didn't say the news or media was forcing anyone to do anything. I was trying to point out that many of the current ISSUES themselves are of a highly volatile nature...thus the issue itself is forcing the audience to seemingly choose a side. This "volatility" is nutured and fostered BY the media.

    I'm not saying the TV makes me think or do certain things just because Ann Coulter or Al Franken say so. What I'm saying is that we seem to have a rash of stupid issues that crop up daily that everyone seems to have to be on one side of, or another.

    Like...

    Smoking in a bar.

    Talking on a cell phone in the car.

    How you discipline your kids in public.

    Etc...

    It's more than just having an opinion nowadays. Every little topic is for some reason being turned into an abortion-esque tirade.

    I didn't know that's what you were getting at, and I agree. I find the Natalie Hollaway type stories the most offensive...smoking in bars less so.

    But while we would like stories like Iran progressing nuclear technology, we only represent 20% of the population. Unfortunately, I don't think the news airing substantive stories would have an impact because the average person would tune them out. Fortunately, there ARE sources for the 20% of us that are interested.
    And you ask me what I want this year
    And I try to make this kind and clear
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
    Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
    And desire and love and empty things
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
  • VictoryGinVictoryGin Posts: 1,218
    Kenny Olav wrote:
    It is difficult to decide whether or not I really understand. If I agree with you, it must mean I'm taking the conservative side and I therefore must accept Bush as my fuhrer. I don't agree with you, it must mean I'm an America-hating terrorist. But I will try to answer, being as nuanced as possible: I agree with whatever El Kabong thinks, but only if mammasan doesn't think it is "out of the mainstream".

    That is hilarious.

    Now I must return to devising the ultimate final sleater-kinney setlist in my head and figuring out how to get tickets.
    if you wanna be a friend of mine
    cross the river to the eastside
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