but aren't some of nationalist beleifs stemed from religion?
Yeah, and relifgion is responsible for some pretty terrible things...but nationalism by itself is a dangerous idea. Europeans used it for centuries to kill eachother off, then they turned their attention to India and Africa and so on. Before that it was the Romans expanding, and so on. Today its the US spreading an empire...and millions are killed ever year thanks to this idea someone had to divide the world up into arbitrary little sections and fight over them.
There's plenty of resources on this planet to feed and clothe everybody...its when nationalist ideas come in that the few have much and the many have little.
And remember Hitler and Pol Pot and every US president since WWII, not to mention the world wars themsleves. All of these were done with nationlist ideology driving the instigators and players.
If you follow religion you are strictly told not to kill anyone but if you follow your country you are asked to kill people.Yet people call religion evil...
It may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.
If you follow religion you are strictly told not to kill anyone but if you follow your country you are asked to kill people.Yet people call religion evil...
yeah but people have killed in the name of religion for centuries, the crusades, mulsim wars, the genocide against the native americans of this country, etc
yeah but people have killed in the name of religion for centuries, the crusades, mulsim wars, the genocide against the native americans of this country, etc
people also freed slaves and marched for civil rights in the name of religion... don't forget that.
Religion has certainly caused more damage than music. Some things the religious groups trying to censor music fail to see.
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
any concept that humanity chooses to adopt that is devisive...be it naotionalism, religion, etc....has caused death. it is the idea of there only being 'one right way'...that oftentimes has caused ruination. also, humans simply being greedy fuckers, deciding they like this land over here...and if you're on it...well, we'll push you out of the way anyway....not even based on any grand 'concept' at all.......but more base, animalistic nature...brute force of taking over the more desirable territory. nature has done a fine job of elimating our #s too...plagues and disease.......so while it's terrible that humans have chosen time and again to extinguish others for selfish reasons....i would not lay blame soley at the feet of religion.
I'd say ownership is a concept that has caused the most death throughout history. But religion and nationalism are up there on the list as well.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
GREED has caused more death than anything else in human history. It can take many forms (religious, nationalistic, political, etc) but at the core it's all about the Green Disease...
Whenever I watch TV and see those poor starving kids all over the world, I can't help but cry. I mean I'd love to be skinny like that but not with all those flies and death and stuff."
Mariah Carey.
even mariah carey gets it
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
If religion is "a set of beliefs concerning the nature and purpose of the universe" (random house dictionary) then yes it has caused more deaths. More people died in the 20th Century than any previous one as a result of some people's "set of beliefs..."
I think the following people's (Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Pol Pot and the other luminaries.) set of beliefs caused quite a bit of deaths.
Secondly, here's a unique concept for you - EVERYONE DIES. Religion did not cause them to die. They were going to die anyway.
which dont make it justified to cause them to die sooner than they otherwise would have. by your logic 9/11 is all cool, cos the people would have died in a few decades in any case.
the bigest cause for deaths are
1) colonisation (the only good native is a dead native and all that)
2) wars between nations
3) religion based killings, fights and genocides
I have faced it, A life wasted...
Take my hand, my child of love
Come step inside my tears
Swim the magic ocean,
I've been crying all these years
Religion is too easy of a scapegoat. It's a numbers game. Most people who fought wars were religious, so it must be religion's fault, right? I don't think so. I think you have to look deeper at the true cause of evil, which is simply greed, whether for power, money, whatever. In most cases, religion was along for the ride while people perpetrated these evils.
true. the most destructive thing in human history,.. but it's ironic that's it's also yielded some of the most amazing things in history (architecture, art, armies - doubly ironic )
Religion is too easy of a scapegoat. It's a numbers game. Most people who fought wars were religious, so it must be religion's fault, right? I don't think so. I think you have to look deeper at the true cause of evil, which is simply greed, whether for power, money, whatever. In most cases, religion was along for the ride while people perpetrated these evils.
Religion isn't always just 'along for the ride'. People already mentioned the Crusades. And a lot of colonization involves spreading Christianity.
Anyway, I'd like to give a shout to the bubonic plague, most notably Black Death.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
Look, this is all bullshit. Religion is not responsible for all of the atrocities people say it is responsible for. I'll use an analogy, and hopefully people will see my point, and shut the hell up about this "religion is the source of all evil" bullshit. Some obviously unstable guy kills a bunch of people and says he did it becaus of some lyrics he heard in a Pearl Jam song. Somebody says Pearl Jam is responsible for the carnage. Stupid right? Very. The guy obviously misinterpreted something, twisted it and used it to justify HIS actions. Its like Saying PJ is responsible for columbine because I'm sure somewhere along the line those two sick fucks heard "Jeremy" once or twice. Don't say its not the same thing. It is.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
religions has divided, and provided excuses for killing, since the beginning of time. What a shame that we cannot learn from history...
On the other hand, do you think we would have a hard time making up other excuses? Killing has been done for a lot of things, including religion.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
exactly.
you can slap whatever label/cause/belief you want on it, doesn't matter. we may not agree on the particular issue of why people choose to kill, just that they do choose to kill, in staggering #s, throughout history, for as many causes/beliefs that exist..and just for the sake of killing too.
which dont make it justified to cause them to die sooner than they otherwise would have. by your logic 9/11 is all cool, cos the people would have died in a few decades in any case.
the bigest cause for deaths are
1) colonisation (the only good native is a dead native and all that)
2) wars between nations
3) religion based killings, fights and genocides
I didn't say that it justified anything. I guess what I mean is don't blame the religion or the organization or the country, etc. - just blame the people who did the killing.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Religion isn't always just 'along for the ride'. People already mentioned the Crusades. And a lot of colonization involves spreading Christianity.
I mean, you are right if you say that religion has been associated with much killing and evil in the history of mankind. I'm just saying that association does not equal causation. Bad people used religion to accomplish a hell of a lot of evil, sure. But it's those people and their twisted, selfish motives that are to blame.
I really believe that the idea that seems to be subscribed to on here of if we could go back in time, take religion completely out of human history, that would result in a much better human experience, is bull crap. I think things would actually turn out much worse given that alternate course of human existance, without all those religious rules and principles "reigning in" those natural selfish human tendancies . I think in the final sum, religion prevents more evil than it creates or encourages. Does that make sense? I hope I explained it decently.
I mean, you are right if you say that religion has been associated with much killing and evil in the history of mankind. I'm just saying that association does not equal causation. Bad people used religion to accomplish a hell of a lot of evil, sure. But it's those people and their twisted, selfish motives that are to blame.
I really believe that the idea that seems to be subscribed to on here of if we could go back in time, take religion completely out of human history, that would result in a much better human experience, is bull crap. I think things would actually turn out much worse given that alternate course of human existance, without all those religious rules and principles "reigning in" those natural selfish human tendancies . I think in the final sum, religion prevents more evil than it creates or encourages. Does that make sense? I hope I explained it decently.
people throughout human history have quite literally killed and colonized "in the name of god". Lately it's been Christianity and Islam (lately in terms of thousands of years).
Relgion causes much more evil than it prevents, but i think it's a nessecary step in our (if you'll pardon the phrase ) evolution.
Before we're able to collectively live decently by the standards that all religions seem to agree on i think it was nessecary for it to be brought together through religion. We've modernized and it's due time we evolve further.
people throughout human history have quite literally killed and colonized "in the name of god". Lately it's been Christianity and Islam (lately in terms of thousands of years).
I just can't believe you think all those people actually cared about the "name of god." I think it's almost always about power, greed, money/land/resources, etc. etc. I personally think "in the name of god" just gave them a nice excuse to justify their behavior and feel like what they were doing wasn't so bad. "I didn't choose to do this, God wants me to!" kind of a thing.
PJfanFORlife
Posts: 138
Comments
I think nationalism has religion beat by quite a bit.
ccfa.org
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There's plenty of resources on this planet to feed and clothe everybody...its when nationalist ideas come in that the few have much and the many have little.
And remember Hitler and Pol Pot and every US president since WWII, not to mention the world wars themsleves. All of these were done with nationlist ideology driving the instigators and players.
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.
www.bebo.com/pearljam06
ccfa.org
http://organicconsumers.com/
people also freed slaves and marched for civil rights in the name of religion... don't forget that.
I think it's a crock for several reasons.
First of all, religion never caused anything. People cause things. If there weren't religion, they would have found something else to fight over.
Secondly, here's a unique concept for you - EVERYONE DIES. Religion did not cause them to die. They were going to die anyway.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
http://www.myspace.com/brain_of_c
my thoughts exactly.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Have to make sure the safety is on.
Mariah Carey.
even mariah carey gets it
I think the following people's (Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Pol Pot and the other luminaries.) set of beliefs caused quite a bit of deaths.
the bigest cause for deaths are
1) colonisation (the only good native is a dead native and all that)
2) wars between nations
3) religion based killings, fights and genocides
Take my hand, my child of love
Come step inside my tears
Swim the magic ocean,
I've been crying all these years
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
Religion isn't always just 'along for the ride'. People already mentioned the Crusades. And a lot of colonization involves spreading Christianity.
Anyway, I'd like to give a shout to the bubonic plague, most notably Black Death.
cross the river to the eastside
killah priest
religions has divided, and provided excuses for killing, since the beginning of time. What a shame that we cannot learn from history...
trying to shake the cancer off...us stupid human beings.
we haven't learned a thing in 10,000 years.
On the other hand, do you think we would have a hard time making up other excuses? Killing has been done for a lot of things, including religion.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
exactly.
you can slap whatever label/cause/belief you want on it, doesn't matter. we may not agree on the particular issue of why people choose to kill, just that they do choose to kill, in staggering #s, throughout history, for as many causes/beliefs that exist..and just for the sake of killing too.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
I didn't say that it justified anything. I guess what I mean is don't blame the religion or the organization or the country, etc. - just blame the people who did the killing.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I mean, you are right if you say that religion has been associated with much killing and evil in the history of mankind. I'm just saying that association does not equal causation. Bad people used religion to accomplish a hell of a lot of evil, sure. But it's those people and their twisted, selfish motives that are to blame.
I really believe that the idea that seems to be subscribed to on here of if we could go back in time, take religion completely out of human history, that would result in a much better human experience, is bull crap. I think things would actually turn out much worse given that alternate course of human existance, without all those religious rules and principles "reigning in" those natural selfish human tendancies . I think in the final sum, religion prevents more evil than it creates or encourages. Does that make sense? I hope I explained it decently.
Relgion causes much more evil than it prevents, but i think it's a nessecary step in our (if you'll pardon the phrase
Before we're able to collectively live decently by the standards that all religions seem to agree on i think it was nessecary for it to be brought together through religion. We've modernized and it's due time we evolve further.
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
I just can't believe you think all those people actually cared about the "name of god." I think it's almost always about power, greed, money/land/resources, etc. etc. I personally think "in the name of god" just gave them a nice excuse to justify their behavior and feel like what they were doing wasn't so bad. "I didn't choose to do this, God wants me to!" kind of a thing.