I don't believe in God

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  • AnnafalkAnnafalk SwedenPosts: 3,401
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    So a sincere question for non believers, if you could choose, would you want there to be a God or not?
    Absolutely not, if that God operates in this reality.
    Why would I want a wantonly malicious and supremely vain deity sitting in the sky like a child with a magnifier over an ant hill.
    Why would anyone want to believe that there is an omnipotent being that sits back and watches the Holocaust unfold? 
    Fuck that!

    It often comes back to this question about how god can allow suffering. If we would say that there is no god, wouldn’t there still be suffering? It would probably still be suffering but there would be no one to turn to, no comfort to get.  I prefer believing in god  just because it feels better. 
    I'm with Pj_Soul, if I believed there was a God who could stop children from starving and being raped, but chose not to for no good reason, I would hate that God for being such a dick.
    Yeah that's where I'm at.

    If god is all powerful and does nothing to end suffering then that isn't a god I'm interested in paying much attention to.
    Believe me I hate that too, evil humans.
    right....humans that are more powerful than god. 
    We humans are the ones that have to do something it’s our responsibility.
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 9,859
    PJ_Soul said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    So a sincere question for non believers, if you could choose, would you want there to be a God or not?
    Absolutely not, if that God operates in this reality.
    Why would I want a wantonly malicious and supremely vain deity sitting in the sky like a child with a magnifier over an ant hill.
    Why would anyone want to believe that there is an omnipotent being that sits back and watches the Holocaust unfold? 
    Fuck that!

    It often comes back to this question about how god can allow suffering. If we would say that there is no god, wouldn’t there still be suffering? It would probably still be suffering but there would be no one to turn to, no comfort to get.  I prefer believing in god  just because it feels better. 
    I'm with Pj_Soul, if I believed there was a God who could stop children from starving and being raped, but chose not to for no good reason, I would hate that God for being such a dick.
    Yeah that's where I'm at.

    If god is all powerful and does nothing to end suffering then that isn't a god I'm interested in paying much attention to.
    Believe me I hate that too, evil humans.
    right....humans that are more powerful than god. 
    Religion beats your very logical argument with the whole free will argument. God won't stop people from harming others because he prefers to sit back and let them choose to do that, because humans have to choose to be good. It is a clever argument, because it will always and forever "explain" the problem of the horrors brought on people even though God has the power to stop it, and it actually sets God up as the giver of our own ability to make decisions (not matter how much it hurts others), which apparently we're supposed to really, really appreciate.
    Except that if God was a little smarter He would give us free will and then punish us directly and immediately for our sins.
    Rape a kid? 
    Straight to hell.  None of this bullshit hanging around raping more kids.
    Start a war? 
    Straight to hell.

    Easy tweak, damn, I must be smarter than God.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • dankinddankind I am not your foot. Posts: 10,411
    PJ_Soul said:
    Annafalk said:
    Annafalk said:
    So a sincere question for non believers, if you could choose, would you want there to be a God or not?
    It would have to be a better one than the one I don't think we have currently - a less suffering based one would be cool.

    But I am cool with my mistakes being mine I don't need any pre-determinism.
    I agree about less suffering, but I think we humans are the ones making most of the suffering...we should do more to lessen it.
    Tell that to the victims of the Tsunami in 2004 or the kids who starve to death in Africa because of drought or the Haitians who died of hydration while trapped under a building after the earthquake. Or to all the people who die of all the many deadly diseases. Or to all the people who die a slow, miserable death just because of old age. I totally disagree that humans make most of the suffering in this world. Yes, of course humans do create their own horrors way too much, but Nature (or God, if you believe in that kind of thing) still causes by far the most suffering in this world.
    It could be argued that your first couple of examples were/are caused by humans.
    I SAW PEARL JAM
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 9,859
    Annafalk said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    So a sincere question for non believers, if you could choose, would you want there to be a God or not?
    Absolutely not, if that God operates in this reality.
    Why would I want a wantonly malicious and supremely vain deity sitting in the sky like a child with a magnifier over an ant hill.
    Why would anyone want to believe that there is an omnipotent being that sits back and watches the Holocaust unfold? 
    Fuck that!

    It often comes back to this question about how god can allow suffering. If we would say that there is no god, wouldn’t there still be suffering? It would probably still be suffering but there would be no one to turn to, no comfort to get.  I prefer believing in god  just because it feels better. 
    I'm with Pj_Soul, if I believed there was a God who could stop children from starving and being raped, but chose not to for no good reason, I would hate that God for being such a dick.
    Yeah that's where I'm at.

    If god is all powerful and does nothing to end suffering then that isn't a god I'm interested in paying much attention to.
    Believe me I hate that too, evil humans.
    right....humans that are more powerful than god. 
    We humans are the ones that have to do something it’s our responsibility.
    That is baloney in the first degree for a host of reasons.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • HesCalledDyerHesCalledDyer MarylandPosts: 9,823
    WHEREAS, the universe exists and,
    WHEREAS, the creator of the universe is "God" and,
    WHEREAS, everything must have a creator,
    THEREIN, what created "God"?
  • tbergstbergs Posts: 3,150
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    So a sincere question for non believers, if you could choose, would you want there to be a God or not?
    Absolutely not, if that God operates in this reality.
    Why would I want a wantonly malicious and supremely vain deity sitting in the sky like a child with a magnifier over an ant hill.
    Why would anyone want to believe that there is an omnipotent being that sits back and watches the Holocaust unfold? 
    Fuck that!

    It often comes back to this question about how god can allow suffering. If we would say that there is no god, wouldn’t there still be suffering? It would probably still be suffering but there would be no one to turn to, no comfort to get.  I prefer believing in god  just because it feels better. 
    I'm with Pj_Soul, if I believed there was a God who could stop children from starving and being raped, but chose not to for no good reason, I would hate that God for being such a dick.
    Yeah that's where I'm at.

    If god is all powerful and does nothing to end suffering then that isn't a god I'm interested in paying much attention to.
    Believe me I hate that too, evil humans.
    right....humans that are more powerful than god. 
    But how could a God take away our every way of evil? We have free will. What would we even be able to do freely if a God intervened? I don't think it's so easy to say that if there is a God they are spiteful to allow suffering. If you take the God concept as truth, then you recognize that the ability to create and control are different pieces of the puzzle. I guess we shouldn't procreate because our children may be the next mass murderer. We know the risks, but do so anyway.
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 38,408
    edited January 10
    dankind said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Annafalk said:
    Annafalk said:
    So a sincere question for non believers, if you could choose, would you want there to be a God or not?
    It would have to be a better one than the one I don't think we have currently - a less suffering based one would be cool.

    But I am cool with my mistakes being mine I don't need any pre-determinism.
    I agree about less suffering, but I think we humans are the ones making most of the suffering...we should do more to lessen it.
    Tell that to the victims of the Tsunami in 2004 or the kids who starve to death in Africa because of drought or the Haitians who died of hydration while trapped under a building after the earthquake. Or to all the people who die of all the many deadly diseases. Or to all the people who die a slow, miserable death just because of old age. I totally disagree that humans make most of the suffering in this world. Yes, of course humans do create their own horrors way too much, but Nature (or God, if you believe in that kind of thing) still causes by far the most suffering in this world.
    It could be argued that your first couple of examples were/are caused by humans.
    How so? I mean, drought maybe from climate change, but drought has acted as a natural population control since the beginning of time, so maybe not. But I'm pretty sure humans couldn't have stopped the earthquake that caused that Tsunami. Or maybe you're saying it's humans' faults because they chose to build things that couldn't withstand the Tsunami and Earthquake, or it's their fault because they didn't migrate out of the place with the drought? Well hell, in that case, our very existence and just trying to survive is our fault and is what makes us deserve all the suffering, so screw God anyway. :lol: Plus, what kind of God worthy of love would allow the free will of one man destroy the life of another? Why should one person's free will supersede another's? That makes no sense and I don't know why believers aren't pissed right off.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • tbergstbergs Posts: 3,150
    PJ_Soul said:
    dankind said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Annafalk said:
    Annafalk said:
    So a sincere question for non believers, if you could choose, would you want there to be a God or not?
    It would have to be a better one than the one I don't think we have currently - a less suffering based one would be cool.

    But I am cool with my mistakes being mine I don't need any pre-determinism.
    I agree about less suffering, but I think we humans are the ones making most of the suffering...we should do more to lessen it.
    Tell that to the victims of the Tsunami in 2004 or the kids who starve to death in Africa because of drought or the Haitians who died of hydration while trapped under a building after the earthquake. Or to all the people who die of all the many deadly diseases. Or to all the people who die a slow, miserable death just because of old age. I totally disagree that humans make most of the suffering in this world. Yes, of course humans do create their own horrors way too much, but Nature (or God, if you believe in that kind of thing) still causes by far the most suffering in this world.
    It could be argued that your first couple of examples were/are caused by humans.
    How so? I mean, drought maybe from climate change, but drought has acted as a natural population control since the beginning of time, so maybe not. But I'm pretty sure humans couldn't have stopped the earthquake that caused that Tsunami. Or maybe you're saying it's humans' faults because they chose to build things that couldn't withstand the Tsunami and Earthquake, or it's their fault because they didn't migrate out of the place with the drought? Well hell, in that case, our very existence and just trying to survive is our fault and is what makes us deserve all the suffering, so screw God anyway. :lol: Plus, what kind of God worthy of love would allow the free will of one man destroy the life of another? Why should one person's free will supersede another's? That makes no sense and I don't know why believers aren't pissed right off.
    To your last question because humans control their own fate. It is our problem to figure out.
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • AnnafalkAnnafalk SwedenPosts: 3,401
    edited January 10
    rgambs said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    So a sincere question for non believers, if you could choose, would you want there to be a God or not?
    Absolutely not, if that God operates in this reality.
    Why would I want a wantonly malicious and supremely vain deity sitting in the sky like a child with a magnifier over an ant hill.
    Why would anyone want to believe that there is an omnipotent being that sits back and watches the Holocaust unfold? 
    Fuck that!

    It often comes back to this question about how god can allow suffering. If we would say that there is no god, wouldn’t there still be suffering? It would probably still be suffering but there would be no one to turn to, no comfort to get.  I prefer believing in god  just because it feels better. 
    I'm with Pj_Soul, if I believed there was a God who could stop children from starving and being raped, but chose not to for no good reason, I would hate that God for being such a dick.
    Yeah that's where I'm at.

    If god is all powerful and does nothing to end suffering then that isn't a god I'm interested in paying much attention to.
    Believe me I hate that too, evil humans.
    right....humans that are more powerful than god. 
    Religion beats your very logical argument with the whole free will argument. God won't stop people from harming others because he prefers to sit back and let them choose to do that, because humans have to choose to be good. It is a clever argument, because it will always and forever "explain" the problem of the horrors brought on people even though God has the power to stop it, and it actually sets God up as the giver of our own ability to make decisions (not matter how much it hurts others), which apparently we're supposed to really, really appreciate.
    Except that if God was a little smarter He would give us free will and then punish us directly and immediately for our sins.
    Rape a kid? 
    Straight to hell.  None of this bullshit hanging around raping more kids.
    Start a war? 
    Straight to hell.

    Easy tweak, damn, I must be smarter than God.
    This sounds like a smart idea but if people knew for sure they are being watched on by a higher power, with the risk of getting sucked up if they do wrong. Wouldn’t all people live with a great fear of taking a step wrong? (I off course like the thought about bad people getting punished though.)
    Post edited by Annafalk on
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 9,859
    tbergs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    So a sincere question for non believers, if you could choose, would you want there to be a God or not?
    Absolutely not, if that God operates in this reality.
    Why would I want a wantonly malicious and supremely vain deity sitting in the sky like a child with a magnifier over an ant hill.
    Why would anyone want to believe that there is an omnipotent being that sits back and watches the Holocaust unfold? 
    Fuck that!

    It often comes back to this question about how god can allow suffering. If we would say that there is no god, wouldn’t there still be suffering? It would probably still be suffering but there would be no one to turn to, no comfort to get.  I prefer believing in god  just because it feels better. 
    I'm with Pj_Soul, if I believed there was a God who could stop children from starving and being raped, but chose not to for no good reason, I would hate that God for being such a dick.
    Yeah that's where I'm at.

    If god is all powerful and does nothing to end suffering then that isn't a god I'm interested in paying much attention to.
    Believe me I hate that too, evil humans.
    right....humans that are more powerful than god. 
    But how could a God take away our every way of evil? We have free will. What would we even be able to do freely if a God intervened? I don't think it's so easy to say that if there is a God they are spiteful to allow suffering. If you take the God concept as truth, then you recognize that the ability to create and control are different pieces of the puzzle. I guess we shouldn't procreate because our children may be the next mass murderer. We know the risks, but do so anyway.
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    So a sincere question for non believers, if you could choose, would you want there to be a God or not?
    Absolutely not, if that God operates in this reality.
    Why would I want a wantonly malicious and supremely vain deity sitting in the sky like a child with a magnifier over an ant hill.
    Why would anyone want to believe that there is an omnipotent being that sits back and watches the Holocaust unfold? 
    Fuck that!

    It often comes back to this question about how god can allow suffering. If we would say that there is no god, wouldn’t there still be suffering? It would probably still be suffering but there would be no one to turn to, no comfort to get.  I prefer believing in god  just because it feels better. 
    I'm with Pj_Soul, if I believed there was a God who could stop children from starving and being raped, but chose not to for no good reason, I would hate that God for being such a dick.
    Yeah that's where I'm at.

    If god is all powerful and does nothing to end suffering then that isn't a god I'm interested in paying much attention to.
    Believe me I hate that too, evil humans.
    right....humans that are more powerful than god. 
    Religion beats your very logical argument with the whole free will argument. God won't stop people from harming others because he prefers to sit back and let them choose to do that, because humans have to choose to be good. It is a clever argument, because it will always and forever "explain" the problem of the horrors brought on people even though God has the power to stop it, and it actually sets God up as the giver of our own ability to make decisions (not matter how much it hurts others), which apparently we're supposed to really, really appreciate.
    Except that if God was a little smarter He would give us free will and then punish us directly and immediately for our sins.
    Rape a kid? 
    Straight to hell.  None of this bullshit hanging around raping more kids.
    Start a war? 
    Straight to hell.

    Easy tweak, damn, I must be smarter than God.
    This sounds like a smart idea but if people knew for sure they are being watched on by a higher power, with the risk of getting sucked up if they do wrong. Wouldn’t all people live with a great fear of taking a step wrong? (I off course like the thought about bad people getting punished though.)
    God could do the responsible thing and come out of hiding.
    Show Himself and definitively lay out the rules and punishments and be there for counsel, actually answer prayers.
    Basically, God could be a decent parent and not a deadbeat Dad who created us and left us a note that says what we should or shouldn't do.  
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom'sPosts: 6,675
    tbergs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    So a sincere question for non believers, if you could choose, would you want there to be a God or not?
    Absolutely not, if that God operates in this reality.
    Why would I want a wantonly malicious and supremely vain deity sitting in the sky like a child with a magnifier over an ant hill.
    Why would anyone want to believe that there is an omnipotent being that sits back and watches the Holocaust unfold? 
    Fuck that!

    It often comes back to this question about how god can allow suffering. If we would say that there is no god, wouldn’t there still be suffering? It would probably still be suffering but there would be no one to turn to, no comfort to get.  I prefer believing in god  just because it feels better. 
    I'm with Pj_Soul, if I believed there was a God who could stop children from starving and being raped, but chose not to for no good reason, I would hate that God for being such a dick.
    Yeah that's where I'm at.

    If god is all powerful and does nothing to end suffering then that isn't a god I'm interested in paying much attention to.
    Believe me I hate that too, evil humans.
    right....humans that are more powerful than god. 
    But how could a God take away our every way of evil? We have free will. What would we even be able to do freely if a God intervened? I don't think it's so easy to say that if there is a God they are spiteful to allow suffering. If you take the God concept as truth, then you recognize that the ability to create and control are different pieces of the puzzle. I guess we shouldn't procreate because our children may be the next mass murderer. We know the risks, but do so anyway.
    Excuse me....if you knew that god would immediately smite you if you fucked up, would you fuck up?
    Former BernieBro, turned Hillary rotten Clinton #1 Fanboy

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  • AnnafalkAnnafalk SwedenPosts: 3,401
    rgambs said:
    tbergs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    So a sincere question for non believers, if you could choose, would you want there to be a God or not?
    Absolutely not, if that God operates in this reality.
    Why would I want a wantonly malicious and supremely vain deity sitting in the sky like a child with a magnifier over an ant hill.
    Why would anyone want to believe that there is an omnipotent being that sits back and watches the Holocaust unfold? 
    Fuck that!

    It often comes back to this question about how god can allow suffering. If we would say that there is no god, wouldn’t there still be suffering? It would probably still be suffering but there would be no one to turn to, no comfort to get.  I prefer believing in god  just because it feels better. 
    I'm with Pj_Soul, if I believed there was a God who could stop children from starving and being raped, but chose not to for no good reason, I would hate that God for being such a dick.
    Yeah that's where I'm at.

    If god is all powerful and does nothing to end suffering then that isn't a god I'm interested in paying much attention to.
    Believe me I hate that too, evil humans.
    right....humans that are more powerful than god. 
    But how could a God take away our every way of evil? We have free will. What would we even be able to do freely if a God intervened? I don't think it's so easy to say that if there is a God they are spiteful to allow suffering. If you take the God concept as truth, then you recognize that the ability to create and control are different pieces of the puzzle. I guess we shouldn't procreate because our children may be the next mass murderer. We know the risks, but do so anyway.
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    So a sincere question for non believers, if you could choose, would you want there to be a God or not?
    Absolutely not, if that God operates in this reality.
    Why would I want a wantonly malicious and supremely vain deity sitting in the sky like a child with a magnifier over an ant hill.
    Why would anyone want to believe that there is an omnipotent being that sits back and watches the Holocaust unfold? 
    Fuck that!

    It often comes back to this question about how god can allow suffering. If we would say that there is no god, wouldn’t there still be suffering? It would probably still be suffering but there would be no one to turn to, no comfort to get.  I prefer believing in god  just because it feels better. 
    I'm with Pj_Soul, if I believed there was a God who could stop children from starving and being raped, but chose not to for no good reason, I would hate that God for being such a dick.
    Yeah that's where I'm at.

    If god is all powerful and does nothing to end suffering then that isn't a god I'm interested in paying much attention to.
    Believe me I hate that too, evil humans.
    right....humans that are more powerful than god. 
    Religion beats your very logical argument with the whole free will argument. God won't stop people from harming others because he prefers to sit back and let them choose to do that, because humans have to choose to be good. It is a clever argument, because it will always and forever "explain" the problem of the horrors brought on people even though God has the power to stop it, and it actually sets God up as the giver of our own ability to make decisions (not matter how much it hurts others), which apparently we're supposed to really, really appreciate.
    Except that if God was a little smarter He would give us free will and then punish us directly and immediately for our sins.
    Rape a kid? 
    Straight to hell.  None of this bullshit hanging around raping more kids.
    Start a war? 
    Straight to hell.

    Easy tweak, damn, I must be smarter than God.
    This sounds like a smart idea but if people knew for sure they are being watched on by a higher power, with the risk of getting sucked up if they do wrong. Wouldn’t all people live with a great fear of taking a step wrong? (I off course like the thought about bad people getting punished though.)
    God could do the responsible thing and come out of hiding.
    Show Himself and definitively lay out the rules and punishments and be there for counsel, actually answer prayers.
    Basically, God could be a decent parent and not a deadbeat Dad who created us and left us a note that says what we should or shouldn't do.  
    Lol, well I believe that prayers are heard and answered.
  • DegeneratefkDegeneratefk Posts: 2,937
    I'm not opposed to the idea of god. As I said before, God could be in all of us in forms of energy. 

    I do not believe the idea of an omnipresent being watching all of us. And the ENTIRE idea of religion is garbage. It was created for mind and population control. 
    will myself to find a home, a home within myself
    we will find a way, we will find our place
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 9,859
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    tbergs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    So a sincere question for non believers, if you could choose, would you want there to be a God or not?
    Absolutely not, if that God operates in this reality.
    Why would I want a wantonly malicious and supremely vain deity sitting in the sky like a child with a magnifier over an ant hill.
    Why would anyone want to believe that there is an omnipotent being that sits back and watches the Holocaust unfold? 
    Fuck that!

    It often comes back to this question about how god can allow suffering. If we would say that there is no god, wouldn’t there still be suffering? It would probably still be suffering but there would be no one to turn to, no comfort to get.  I prefer believing in god  just because it feels better. 
    I'm with Pj_Soul, if I believed there was a God who could stop children from starving and being raped, but chose not to for no good reason, I would hate that God for being such a dick.
    Yeah that's where I'm at.

    If god is all powerful and does nothing to end suffering then that isn't a god I'm interested in paying much attention to.
    Believe me I hate that too, evil humans.
    right....humans that are more powerful than god. 
    But how could a God take away our every way of evil? We have free will. What would we even be able to do freely if a God intervened? I don't think it's so easy to say that if there is a God they are spiteful to allow suffering. If you take the God concept as truth, then you recognize that the ability to create and control are different pieces of the puzzle. I guess we shouldn't procreate because our children may be the next mass murderer. We know the risks, but do so anyway.
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    So a sincere question for non believers, if you could choose, would you want there to be a God or not?
    Absolutely not, if that God operates in this reality.
    Why would I want a wantonly malicious and supremely vain deity sitting in the sky like a child with a magnifier over an ant hill.
    Why would anyone want to believe that there is an omnipotent being that sits back and watches the Holocaust unfold? 
    Fuck that!

    It often comes back to this question about how god can allow suffering. If we would say that there is no god, wouldn’t there still be suffering? It would probably still be suffering but there would be no one to turn to, no comfort to get.  I prefer believing in god  just because it feels better. 
    I'm with Pj_Soul, if I believed there was a God who could stop children from starving and being raped, but chose not to for no good reason, I would hate that God for being such a dick.
    Yeah that's where I'm at.

    If god is all powerful and does nothing to end suffering then that isn't a god I'm interested in paying much attention to.
    Believe me I hate that too, evil humans.
    right....humans that are more powerful than god. 
    Religion beats your very logical argument with the whole free will argument. God won't stop people from harming others because he prefers to sit back and let them choose to do that, because humans have to choose to be good. It is a clever argument, because it will always and forever "explain" the problem of the horrors brought on people even though God has the power to stop it, and it actually sets God up as the giver of our own ability to make decisions (not matter how much it hurts others), which apparently we're supposed to really, really appreciate.
    Except that if God was a little smarter He would give us free will and then punish us directly and immediately for our sins.
    Rape a kid? 
    Straight to hell.  None of this bullshit hanging around raping more kids.
    Start a war? 
    Straight to hell.

    Easy tweak, damn, I must be smarter than God.
    This sounds like a smart idea but if people knew for sure they are being watched on by a higher power, with the risk of getting sucked up if they do wrong. Wouldn’t all people live with a great fear of taking a step wrong? (I off course like the thought about bad people getting punished though.)
    God could do the responsible thing and come out of hiding.
    Show Himself and definitively lay out the rules and punishments and be there for counsel, actually answer prayers.
    Basically, God could be a decent parent and not a deadbeat Dad who created us and left us a note that says what we should or shouldn't do.  
    Lol, well I believe that prayers are heard and answered.
    And now we circle back to the questions of sanity lol
    Silence is not an answer.
    Inaction is not an answer.

    I doubt very many African slaves felt their prayers were being heard and answered when they were under the lash and their wives and children were sold away. 

    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 38,408
    edited January 10
    tbergs said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    dankind said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Annafalk said:
    Annafalk said:
    So a sincere question for non believers, if you could choose, would you want there to be a God or not?
    It would have to be a better one than the one I don't think we have currently - a less suffering based one would be cool.

    But I am cool with my mistakes being mine I don't need any pre-determinism.
    I agree about less suffering, but I think we humans are the ones making most of the suffering...we should do more to lessen it.
    Tell that to the victims of the Tsunami in 2004 or the kids who starve to death in Africa because of drought or the Haitians who died of hydration while trapped under a building after the earthquake. Or to all the people who die of all the many deadly diseases. Or to all the people who die a slow, miserable death just because of old age. I totally disagree that humans make most of the suffering in this world. Yes, of course humans do create their own horrors way too much, but Nature (or God, if you believe in that kind of thing) still causes by far the most suffering in this world.
    It could be argued that your first couple of examples were/are caused by humans.
    How so? I mean, drought maybe from climate change, but drought has acted as a natural population control since the beginning of time, so maybe not. But I'm pretty sure humans couldn't have stopped the earthquake that caused that Tsunami. Or maybe you're saying it's humans' faults because they chose to build things that couldn't withstand the Tsunami and Earthquake, or it's their fault because they didn't migrate out of the place with the drought? Well hell, in that case, our very existence and just trying to survive is our fault and is what makes us deserve all the suffering, so screw God anyway. :lol: Plus, what kind of God worthy of love would allow the free will of one man destroy the life of another? Why should one person's free will supersede another's? That makes no sense and I don't know why believers aren't pissed right off.
    To your last question because humans control their own fate. It is our problem to figure out.
    Well that is what I would expect an Atheist to say, but as I just said, many, many humans do NOT control their fate at all, so I just don't get how religious folks reconcile that with their love of God or that whole free will theory, nor with the fact that God gets thanked for every good thing but not blamed for every bad thing. If humans staunchly control their fates then why is everyone always praising God when good shit happens?? If the bad stuff is in the hands of humans, then the good stuff is too. And that means God is a good for nothin' layabout, lol.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • tbergs said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    dankind said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Annafalk said:
    Annafalk said:
    So a sincere question for non believers, if you could choose, would you want there to be a God or not?
    It would have to be a better one than the one I don't think we have currently - a less suffering based one would be cool.

    But I am cool with my mistakes being mine I don't need any pre-determinism.
    I agree about less suffering, but I think we humans are the ones making most of the suffering...we should do more to lessen it.
    Tell that to the victims of the Tsunami in 2004 or the kids who starve to death in Africa because of drought or the Haitians who died of hydration while trapped under a building after the earthquake. Or to all the people who die of all the many deadly diseases. Or to all the people who die a slow, miserable death just because of old age. I totally disagree that humans make most of the suffering in this world. Yes, of course humans do create their own horrors way too much, but Nature (or God, if you believe in that kind of thing) still causes by far the most suffering in this world.
    It could be argued that your first couple of examples were/are caused by humans.
    How so? I mean, drought maybe from climate change, but drought has acted as a natural population control since the beginning of time, so maybe not. But I'm pretty sure humans couldn't have stopped the earthquake that caused that Tsunami. Or maybe you're saying it's humans' faults because they chose to build things that couldn't withstand the Tsunami and Earthquake, or it's their fault because they didn't migrate out of the place with the drought? Well hell, in that case, our very existence and just trying to survive is our fault and is what makes us deserve all the suffering, so screw God anyway. :lol: Plus, what kind of God worthy of love would allow the free will of one man destroy the life of another? Why should one person's free will supersede another's? That makes no sense and I don't know why believers aren't pissed right off.
    To your last question because humans control their own fate. It is our problem to figure out.

    So then God sits around waiting for centuries for us to figure it out... and we haven't even come remotely close to doing so with our extreme limitations.

    That's another of the unexplainable questions that is answered with the fall back lines that discourages questioning like: 'you must have faith' and 'God gave us free will'.

    In the meantime, wars are waged, little kids in Pakistan get raped, murdered and tossed into the garbage, rare and beautiful animals get killed and mutilated for parts, and on... and on... and...

    There is no God. Come on, people. Come to terms with your existence.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • dignindignin Posts: 5,433

    There’s No Such Thing as Free Will

    But we’re better off believing in it anyway.


    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/06/theres-no-such-thing-as-free-will/480750/
  • tbergstbergs Posts: 3,150
    tbergs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    So a sincere question for non believers, if you could choose, would you want there to be a God or not?
    Absolutely not, if that God operates in this reality.
    Why would I want a wantonly malicious and supremely vain deity sitting in the sky like a child with a magnifier over an ant hill.
    Why would anyone want to believe that there is an omnipotent being that sits back and watches the Holocaust unfold? 
    Fuck that!

    It often comes back to this question about how god can allow suffering. If we would say that there is no god, wouldn’t there still be suffering? It would probably still be suffering but there would be no one to turn to, no comfort to get.  I prefer believing in god  just because it feels better. 
    I'm with Pj_Soul, if I believed there was a God who could stop children from starving and being raped, but chose not to for no good reason, I would hate that God for being such a dick.
    Yeah that's where I'm at.

    If god is all powerful and does nothing to end suffering then that isn't a god I'm interested in paying much attention to.
    Believe me I hate that too, evil humans.
    right....humans that are more powerful than god. 
    But how could a God take away our every way of evil? We have free will. What would we even be able to do freely if a God intervened? I don't think it's so easy to say that if there is a God they are spiteful to allow suffering. If you take the God concept as truth, then you recognize that the ability to create and control are different pieces of the puzzle. I guess we shouldn't procreate because our children may be the next mass murderer. We know the risks, but do so anyway.
    Excuse me....if you knew that god would immediately smite you if you fucked up, would you fuck up?
    What does it mean to "fuck up"? Is it reserved for rapists and murderers or does swindling $1,000 qualify? Much like the criminal justice system, people often know there will be a consequence, but due to either emotion or lack there of, we do it anyway. I don't see that changing under any circumstances. Sure, it may have a slight impact, but to err is human. We are a flawed creation.
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • dignindignin Posts: 5,433
    tbergs said:
    tbergs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    So a sincere question for non believers, if you could choose, would you want there to be a God or not?
    Absolutely not, if that God operates in this reality.
    Why would I want a wantonly malicious and supremely vain deity sitting in the sky like a child with a magnifier over an ant hill.
    Why would anyone want to believe that there is an omnipotent being that sits back and watches the Holocaust unfold? 
    Fuck that!

    It often comes back to this question about how god can allow suffering. If we would say that there is no god, wouldn’t there still be suffering? It would probably still be suffering but there would be no one to turn to, no comfort to get.  I prefer believing in god  just because it feels better. 
    I'm with Pj_Soul, if I believed there was a God who could stop children from starving and being raped, but chose not to for no good reason, I would hate that God for being such a dick.
    Yeah that's where I'm at.

    If god is all powerful and does nothing to end suffering then that isn't a god I'm interested in paying much attention to.
    Believe me I hate that too, evil humans.
    right....humans that are more powerful than god. 
    But how could a God take away our every way of evil? We have free will. What would we even be able to do freely if a God intervened? I don't think it's so easy to say that if there is a God they are spiteful to allow suffering. If you take the God concept as truth, then you recognize that the ability to create and control are different pieces of the puzzle. I guess we shouldn't procreate because our children may be the next mass murderer. We know the risks, but do so anyway.
    Excuse me....if you knew that god would immediately smite you if you fucked up, would you fuck up?
    What does it mean to "fuck up"? Is it reserved for rapists and murderers or does swindling $1,000 qualify? Much like the criminal justice system, people often know there will be a consequence, but due to either emotion or lack there of, we do it anyway. I don't see that changing under any circumstances. Sure, it may have a slight impact, but to err is human. We are a flawed creation.
    We are not a creation.
  • AnnafalkAnnafalk SwedenPosts: 3,401
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    tbergs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    So a sincere question for non believers, if you could choose, would you want there to be a God or not?
    Absolutely not, if that God operates in this reality.
    Why would I want a wantonly malicious and supremely vain deity sitting in the sky like a child with a magnifier over an ant hill.
    Why would anyone want to believe that there is an omnipotent being that sits back and watches the Holocaust unfold? 
    Fuck that!

    It often comes back to this question about how god can allow suffering. If we would say that there is no god, wouldn’t there still be suffering? It would probably still be suffering but there would be no one to turn to, no comfort to get.  I prefer believing in god  just because it feels better. 
    I'm with Pj_Soul, if I believed there was a God who could stop children from starving and being raped, but chose not to for no good reason, I would hate that God for being such a dick.
    Yeah that's where I'm at.

    If god is all powerful and does nothing to end suffering then that isn't a god I'm interested in paying much attention to.
    Believe me I hate that too, evil humans.
    right....humans that are more powerful than god. 
    But how could a God take away our every way of evil? We have free will. What would we even be able to do freely if a God intervened? I don't think it's so easy to say that if there is a God they are spiteful to allow suffering. If you take the God concept as truth, then you recognize that the ability to create and control are different pieces of the puzzle. I guess we shouldn't procreate because our children may be the next mass murderer. We know the risks, but do so anyway.
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    So a sincere question for non believers, if you could choose, would you want there to be a God or not?
    Absolutely not, if that God operates in this reality.
    Why would I want a wantonly malicious and supremely vain deity sitting in the sky like a child with a magnifier over an ant hill.
    Why would anyone want to believe that there is an omnipotent being that sits back and watches the Holocaust unfold? 
    Fuck that!

    It often comes back to this question about how god can allow suffering. If we would say that there is no god, wouldn’t there still be suffering? It would probably still be suffering but there would be no one to turn to, no comfort to get.  I prefer believing in god  just because it feels better. 
    I'm with Pj_Soul, if I believed there was a God who could stop children from starving and being raped, but chose not to for no good reason, I would hate that God for being such a dick.
    Yeah that's where I'm at.

    If god is all powerful and does nothing to end suffering then that isn't a god I'm interested in paying much attention to.
    Believe me I hate that too, evil humans.
    right....humans that are more powerful than god. 
    Religion beats your very logical argument with the whole free will argument. God won't stop people from harming others because he prefers to sit back and let them choose to do that, because humans have to choose to be good. It is a clever argument, because it will always and forever "explain" the problem of the horrors brought on people even though God has the power to stop it, and it actually sets God up as the giver of our own ability to make decisions (not matter how much it hurts others), which apparently we're supposed to really, really appreciate.
    Except that if God was a little smarter He would give us free will and then punish us directly and immediately for our sins.
    Rape a kid? 
    Straight to hell.  None of this bullshit hanging around raping more kids.
    Start a war? 
    Straight to hell.

    Easy tweak, damn, I must be smarter than God.
    This sounds like a smart idea but if people knew for sure they are being watched on by a higher power, with the risk of getting sucked up if they do wrong. Wouldn’t all people live with a great fear of taking a step wrong? (I off course like the thought about bad people getting punished though.)
    God could do the responsible thing and come out of hiding.
    Show Himself and definitively lay out the rules and punishments and be there for counsel, actually answer prayers.
    Basically, God could be a decent parent and not a deadbeat Dad who created us and left us a note that says what we should or shouldn't do.  
    Lol, well I believe that prayers are heard and answered.
    And now we circle back to the questions of sanity lol
    Silence is not an answer.
    Inaction is not an answer.

    I doubt very many African slaves felt their prayers were being heard and answered when they were under the lash and their wives and children were sold away. 

    It wasn’t god’s fault this happened. At least it could give comfort, where does for example gospel come from?
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 9,859
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    tbergs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    So a sincere question for non believers, if you could choose, would you want there to be a God or not?
    Absolutely not, if that God operates in this reality.
    Why would I want a wantonly malicious and supremely vain deity sitting in the sky like a child with a magnifier over an ant hill.
    Why would anyone want to believe that there is an omnipotent being that sits back and watches the Holocaust unfold? 
    Fuck that!

    It often comes back to this question about how god can allow suffering. If we would say that there is no god, wouldn’t there still be suffering? It would probably still be suffering but there would be no one to turn to, no comfort to get.  I prefer believing in god  just because it feels better. 
    I'm with Pj_Soul, if I believed there was a God who could stop children from starving and being raped, but chose not to for no good reason, I would hate that God for being such a dick.
    Yeah that's where I'm at.

    If god is all powerful and does nothing to end suffering then that isn't a god I'm interested in paying much attention to.
    Believe me I hate that too, evil humans.
    right....humans that are more powerful than god. 
    But how could a God take away our every way of evil? We have free will. What would we even be able to do freely if a God intervened? I don't think it's so easy to say that if there is a God they are spiteful to allow suffering. If you take the God concept as truth, then you recognize that the ability to create and control are different pieces of the puzzle. I guess we shouldn't procreate because our children may be the next mass murderer. We know the risks, but do so anyway.
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    So a sincere question for non believers, if you could choose, would you want there to be a God or not?
    Absolutely not, if that God operates in this reality.
    Why would I want a wantonly malicious and supremely vain deity sitting in the sky like a child with a magnifier over an ant hill.
    Why would anyone want to believe that there is an omnipotent being that sits back and watches the Holocaust unfold? 
    Fuck that!

    It often comes back to this question about how god can allow suffering. If we would say that there is no god, wouldn’t there still be suffering? It would probably still be suffering but there would be no one to turn to, no comfort to get.  I prefer believing in god  just because it feels better. 
    I'm with Pj_Soul, if I believed there was a God who could stop children from starving and being raped, but chose not to for no good reason, I would hate that God for being such a dick.
    Yeah that's where I'm at.

    If god is all powerful and does nothing to end suffering then that isn't a god I'm interested in paying much attention to.
    Believe me I hate that too, evil humans.
    right....humans that are more powerful than god. 
    Religion beats your very logical argument with the whole free will argument. God won't stop people from harming others because he prefers to sit back and let them choose to do that, because humans have to choose to be good. It is a clever argument, because it will always and forever "explain" the problem of the horrors brought on people even though God has the power to stop it, and it actually sets God up as the giver of our own ability to make decisions (not matter how much it hurts others), which apparently we're supposed to really, really appreciate.
    Except that if God was a little smarter He would give us free will and then punish us directly and immediately for our sins.
    Rape a kid? 
    Straight to hell.  None of this bullshit hanging around raping more kids.
    Start a war? 
    Straight to hell.

    Easy tweak, damn, I must be smarter than God.
    This sounds like a smart idea but if people knew for sure they are being watched on by a higher power, with the risk of getting sucked up if they do wrong. Wouldn’t all people live with a great fear of taking a step wrong? (I off course like the thought about bad people getting punished though.)
    God could do the responsible thing and come out of hiding.
    Show Himself and definitively lay out the rules and punishments and be there for counsel, actually answer prayers.
    Basically, God could be a decent parent and not a deadbeat Dad who created us and left us a note that says what we should or shouldn't do.  
    Lol, well I believe that prayers are heard and answered.
    And now we circle back to the questions of sanity lol
    Silence is not an answer.
    Inaction is not an answer.

    I doubt very many African slaves felt their prayers were being heard and answered when they were under the lash and their wives and children were sold away. 

    It wasn’t god’s fault this happened. At least it could give comfort, where does for example gospel come from?
    If you see a child getting raped, are you going to sit back and say, "it wasn't my fault this happened", or are you going to kick and punch and claw and do whatever you can to save that child? I know the answer.
    Congratulations, you are better than God.  More moral, and with more guts because you'd be putting yourself at risk where God wouldn't.

    Where does great poetry come from?  Great music?  That same place as the gospels, which contradict each other and give conflicting stories.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 9,859
    tbergs said:
    tbergs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    So a sincere question for non believers, if you could choose, would you want there to be a God or not?
    Absolutely not, if that God operates in this reality.
    Why would I want a wantonly malicious and supremely vain deity sitting in the sky like a child with a magnifier over an ant hill.
    Why would anyone want to believe that there is an omnipotent being that sits back and watches the Holocaust unfold? 
    Fuck that!

    It often comes back to this question about how god can allow suffering. If we would say that there is no god, wouldn’t there still be suffering? It would probably still be suffering but there would be no one to turn to, no comfort to get.  I prefer believing in god  just because it feels better. 
    I'm with Pj_Soul, if I believed there was a God who could stop children from starving and being raped, but chose not to for no good reason, I would hate that God for being such a dick.
    Yeah that's where I'm at.

    If god is all powerful and does nothing to end suffering then that isn't a god I'm interested in paying much attention to.
    Believe me I hate that too, evil humans.
    right....humans that are more powerful than god. 
    But how could a God take away our every way of evil? We have free will. What would we even be able to do freely if a God intervened? I don't think it's so easy to say that if there is a God they are spiteful to allow suffering. If you take the God concept as truth, then you recognize that the ability to create and control are different pieces of the puzzle. I guess we shouldn't procreate because our children may be the next mass murderer. We know the risks, but do so anyway.
    Excuse me....if you knew that god would immediately smite you if you fucked up, would you fuck up?
    What does it mean to "fuck up"? Is it reserved for rapists and murderers or does swindling $1,000 qualify? Much like the criminal justice system, people often know there will be a consequence, but due to either emotion or lack there of, we do it anyway. I don't see that changing under any circumstances. Sure, it may have a slight impact, but to err is human. We are a flawed creation.
    Just imagine if God actually clearly laid out the rules and punishments and then actually administered them?
    God says, don't steal or you'll get Herpes.
    You steal.  Boom, Herpes.


    Sure seems like a no brainer system to me.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • AnnafalkAnnafalk SwedenPosts: 3,401
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    tbergs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    So a sincere question for non believers, if you could choose, would you want there to be a God or not?
    Absolutely not, if that God operates in this reality.
    Why would I want a wantonly malicious and supremely vain deity sitting in the sky like a child with a magnifier over an ant hill.
    Why would anyone want to believe that there is an omnipotent being that sits back and watches the Holocaust unfold? 
    Fuck that!

    It often comes back to this question about how god can allow suffering. If we would say that there is no god, wouldn’t there still be suffering? It would probably still be suffering but there would be no one to turn to, no comfort to get.  I prefer believing in god  just because it feels better. 
    I'm with Pj_Soul, if I believed there was a God who could stop children from starving and being raped, but chose not to for no good reason, I would hate that God for being such a dick.
    Yeah that's where I'm at.

    If god is all powerful and does nothing to end suffering then that isn't a god I'm interested in paying much attention to.
    Believe me I hate that too, evil humans.
    right....humans that are more powerful than god. 
    But how could a God take away our every way of evil? We have free will. What would we even be able to do freely if a God intervened? I don't think it's so easy to say that if there is a God they are spiteful to allow suffering. If you take the God concept as truth, then you recognize that the ability to create and control are different pieces of the puzzle. I guess we shouldn't procreate because our children may be the next mass murderer. We know the risks, but do so anyway.
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    So a sincere question for non believers, if you could choose, would you want there to be a God or not?
    Absolutely not, if that God operates in this reality.
    Why would I want a wantonly malicious and supremely vain deity sitting in the sky like a child with a magnifier over an ant hill.
    Why would anyone want to believe that there is an omnipotent being that sits back and watches the Holocaust unfold? 
    Fuck that!

    It often comes back to this question about how god can allow suffering. If we would say that there is no god, wouldn’t there still be suffering? It would probably still be suffering but there would be no one to turn to, no comfort to get.  I prefer believing in god  just because it feels better. 
    I'm with Pj_Soul, if I believed there was a God who could stop children from starving and being raped, but chose not to for no good reason, I would hate that God for being such a dick.
    Yeah that's where I'm at.

    If god is all powerful and does nothing to end suffering then that isn't a god I'm interested in paying much attention to.
    Believe me I hate that too, evil humans.
    right....humans that are more powerful than god. 
    Religion beats your very logical argument with the whole free will argument. God won't stop people from harming others because he prefers to sit back and let them choose to do that, because humans have to choose to be good. It is a clever argument, because it will always and forever "explain" the problem of the horrors brought on people even though God has the power to stop it, and it actually sets God up as the giver of our own ability to make decisions (not matter how much it hurts others), which apparently we're supposed to really, really appreciate.
    Except that if God was a little smarter He would give us free will and then punish us directly and immediately for our sins.
    Rape a kid? 
    Straight to hell.  None of this bullshit hanging around raping more kids.
    Start a war? 
    Straight to hell.

    Easy tweak, damn, I must be smarter than God.
    This sounds like a smart idea but if people knew for sure they are being watched on by a higher power, with the risk of getting sucked up if they do wrong. Wouldn’t all people live with a great fear of taking a step wrong? (I off course like the thought about bad people getting punished though.)
    God could do the responsible thing and come out of hiding.
    Show Himself and definitively lay out the rules and punishments and be there for counsel, actually answer prayers.
    Basically, God could be a decent parent and not a deadbeat Dad who created us and left us a note that says what we should or shouldn't do.  
    Lol, well I believe that prayers are heard and answered.
    And now we circle back to the questions of sanity lol
    Silence is not an answer.
    Inaction is not an answer.

    I doubt very many African slaves felt their prayers were being heard and answered when they were under the lash and their wives and children were sold away. 

    It wasn’t god’s fault this happened. At least it could give comfort, where does for example gospel come from?
    If you see a child getting raped, are you going to sit back and say, "it wasn't my fault this happened", or are you going to kick and punch and claw and do whatever you can to save that child? I know the answer.
    Congratulations, you are better than God.  More moral, and with more guts because you'd be putting yourself at risk where God wouldn't.

    Where does great poetry come from?  Great music?  That same place as the gospels, which contradict each other and give conflicting stories.
    I understand your anger and frustration.
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 9,859
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    tbergs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    So a sincere question for non believers, if you could choose, would you want there to be a God or not?
    Absolutely not, if that God operates in this reality.
    Why would I want a wantonly malicious and supremely vain deity sitting in the sky like a child with a magnifier over an ant hill.
    Why would anyone want to believe that there is an omnipotent being that sits back and watches the Holocaust unfold? 
    Fuck that!

    It often comes back to this question about how god can allow suffering. If we would say that there is no god, wouldn’t there still be suffering? It would probably still be suffering but there would be no one to turn to, no comfort to get.  I prefer believing in god  just because it feels better. 
    I'm with Pj_Soul, if I believed there was a God who could stop children from starving and being raped, but chose not to for no good reason, I would hate that God for being such a dick.
    Yeah that's where I'm at.

    If god is all powerful and does nothing to end suffering then that isn't a god I'm interested in paying much attention to.
    Believe me I hate that too, evil humans.
    right....humans that are more powerful than god. 
    But how could a God take away our every way of evil? We have free will. What would we even be able to do freely if a God intervened? I don't think it's so easy to say that if there is a God they are spiteful to allow suffering. If you take the God concept as truth, then you recognize that the ability to create and control are different pieces of the puzzle. I guess we shouldn't procreate because our children may be the next mass murderer. We know the risks, but do so anyway.
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    So a sincere question for non believers, if you could choose, would you want there to be a God or not?
    Absolutely not, if that God operates in this reality.
    Why would I want a wantonly malicious and supremely vain deity sitting in the sky like a child with a magnifier over an ant hill.
    Why would anyone want to believe that there is an omnipotent being that sits back and watches the Holocaust unfold? 
    Fuck that!

    It often comes back to this question about how god can allow suffering. If we would say that there is no god, wouldn’t there still be suffering? It would probably still be suffering but there would be no one to turn to, no comfort to get.  I prefer believing in god  just because it feels better. 
    I'm with Pj_Soul, if I believed there was a God who could stop children from starving and being raped, but chose not to for no good reason, I would hate that God for being such a dick.
    Yeah that's where I'm at.

    If god is all powerful and does nothing to end suffering then that isn't a god I'm interested in paying much attention to.
    Believe me I hate that too, evil humans.
    right....humans that are more powerful than god. 
    Religion beats your very logical argument with the whole free will argument. God won't stop people from harming others because he prefers to sit back and let them choose to do that, because humans have to choose to be good. It is a clever argument, because it will always and forever "explain" the problem of the horrors brought on people even though God has the power to stop it, and it actually sets God up as the giver of our own ability to make decisions (not matter how much it hurts others), which apparently we're supposed to really, really appreciate.
    Except that if God was a little smarter He would give us free will and then punish us directly and immediately for our sins.
    Rape a kid? 
    Straight to hell.  None of this bullshit hanging around raping more kids.
    Start a war? 
    Straight to hell.

    Easy tweak, damn, I must be smarter than God.
    This sounds like a smart idea but if people knew for sure they are being watched on by a higher power, with the risk of getting sucked up if they do wrong. Wouldn’t all people live with a great fear of taking a step wrong? (I off course like the thought about bad people getting punished though.)
    God could do the responsible thing and come out of hiding.
    Show Himself and definitively lay out the rules and punishments and be there for counsel, actually answer prayers.
    Basically, God could be a decent parent and not a deadbeat Dad who created us and left us a note that says what we should or shouldn't do.  
    Lol, well I believe that prayers are heard and answered.
    And now we circle back to the questions of sanity lol
    Silence is not an answer.
    Inaction is not an answer.

    I doubt very many African slaves felt their prayers were being heard and answered when they were under the lash and their wives and children were sold away. 

    It wasn’t god’s fault this happened. At least it could give comfort, where does for example gospel come from?
    If you see a child getting raped, are you going to sit back and say, "it wasn't my fault this happened", or are you going to kick and punch and claw and do whatever you can to save that child? I know the answer.
    Congratulations, you are better than God.  More moral, and with more guts because you'd be putting yourself at risk where God wouldn't.

    Where does great poetry come from?  Great music?  That same place as the gospels, which contradict each other and give conflicting stories.
    I understand your anger and frustration.
    Good I'm glad that you do that means that you are thinking deeply. Thank you for night taking any of this personally as it's not intended to be.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • AnnafalkAnnafalk SwedenPosts: 3,401
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    tbergs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    So a sincere question for non believers, if you could choose, would you want there to be a God or not?
    Absolutely not, if that God operates in this reality.
    Why would I want a wantonly malicious and supremely vain deity sitting in the sky like a child with a magnifier over an ant hill.
    Why would anyone want to believe that there is an omnipotent being that sits back and watches the Holocaust unfold? 
    Fuck that!

    It often comes back to this question about how god can allow suffering. If we would say that there is no god, wouldn’t there still be suffering? It would probably still be suffering but there would be no one to turn to, no comfort to get.  I prefer believing in god  just because it feels better. 
    I'm with Pj_Soul, if I believed there was a God who could stop children from starving and being raped, but chose not to for no good reason, I would hate that God for being such a dick.
    Yeah that's where I'm at.

    If god is all powerful and does nothing to end suffering then that isn't a god I'm interested in paying much attention to.
    Believe me I hate that too, evil humans.
    right....humans that are more powerful than god. 
    But how could a God take away our every way of evil? We have free will. What would we even be able to do freely if a God intervened? I don't think it's so easy to say that if there is a God they are spiteful to allow suffering. If you take the God concept as truth, then you recognize that the ability to create and control are different pieces of the puzzle. I guess we shouldn't procreate because our children may be the next mass murderer. We know the risks, but do so anyway.
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    So a sincere question for non believers, if you could choose, would you want there to be a God or not?
    Absolutely not, if that God operates in this reality.
    Why would I want a wantonly malicious and supremely vain deity sitting in the sky like a child with a magnifier over an ant hill.
    Why would anyone want to believe that there is an omnipotent being that sits back and watches the Holocaust unfold? 
    Fuck that!

    It often comes back to this question about how god can allow suffering. If we would say that there is no god, wouldn’t there still be suffering? It would probably still be suffering but there would be no one to turn to, no comfort to get.  I prefer believing in god  just because it feels better. 
    I'm with Pj_Soul, if I believed there was a God who could stop children from starving and being raped, but chose not to for no good reason, I would hate that God for being such a dick.
    Yeah that's where I'm at.

    If god is all powerful and does nothing to end suffering then that isn't a god I'm interested in paying much attention to.
    Believe me I hate that too, evil humans.
    right....humans that are more powerful than god. 
    Religion beats your very logical argument with the whole free will argument. God won't stop people from harming others because he prefers to sit back and let them choose to do that, because humans have to choose to be good. It is a clever argument, because it will always and forever "explain" the problem of the horrors brought on people even though God has the power to stop it, and it actually sets God up as the giver of our own ability to make decisions (not matter how much it hurts others), which apparently we're supposed to really, really appreciate.
    Except that if God was a little smarter He would give us free will and then punish us directly and immediately for our sins.
    Rape a kid? 
    Straight to hell.  None of this bullshit hanging around raping more kids.
    Start a war? 
    Straight to hell.

    Easy tweak, damn, I must be smarter than God.
    This sounds like a smart idea but if people knew for sure they are being watched on by a higher power, with the risk of getting sucked up if they do wrong. Wouldn’t all people live with a great fear of taking a step wrong? (I off course like the thought about bad people getting punished though.)
    God could do the responsible thing and come out of hiding.
    Show Himself and definitively lay out the rules and punishments and be there for counsel, actually answer prayers.
    Basically, God could be a decent parent and not a deadbeat Dad who created us and left us a note that says what we should or shouldn't do.  
    Lol, well I believe that prayers are heard and answered.
    And now we circle back to the questions of sanity lol
    Silence is not an answer.
    Inaction is not an answer.

    I doubt very many African slaves felt their prayers were being heard and answered when they were under the lash and their wives and children were sold away. 

    It wasn’t god’s fault this happened. At least it could give comfort, where does for example gospel come from?
    If you see a child getting raped, are you going to sit back and say, "it wasn't my fault this happened", or are you going to kick and punch and claw and do whatever you can to save that child? I know the answer.
    Congratulations, you are better than God.  More moral, and with more guts because you'd be putting yourself at risk where God wouldn't.

    Where does great poetry come from?  Great music?  That same place as the gospels, which contradict each other and give conflicting stories.
    I understand your anger and frustration.
    Good I'm glad that you do that means that you are thinking deeply. Thank you for night taking any of this personally as it's not intended to be.
    Thanks, same to you :)
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 1,835
    edited January 11
    PJ_Soul said:
    Geez, if I believed in God I'd blame all the suffering on him and hate him, and feel worse, lol. I don't get why God can cause all the suffering (and I mean the kind that has nothing to do with free will, which is a LOT of suffering), but then also be looked to for comfort to relieve the bad emotions attached to that very same suffering. I'm not sure how that is comforting to people.
    I think I've said before that i believe in God. I only mention that now so you know I know from experience when I talk about what "we" believe.
    God didn't create a bunch of robots he controls. He created life, and with that allows us to make our own choices and decisions. Sometimes they are very bad and evil choices, but he still allows us to make them. He doesn't stop suffering because that would be taking our freedom away. Or as some others have said, causes suffering. He doesn't cause suffering,  but he doesn't stop it. If he wanted to create a living being that he completely controls every thought and move then he could have, but we are given the freedom and the consequences that go along with that.
    I know that isn't what you and many others believe, but that is our belief about God and suffering.
    *looks like I was a day behind in responding to these comments. O well....
    Post edited by mace1229 on
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 1,835
    rgambs said:
    tbergs said:
    tbergs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    So a sincere question for non believers, if you could choose, would you want there to be a God or not?
    Absolutely not, if that God operates in this reality.
    Why would I want a wantonly malicious and supremely vain deity sitting in the sky like a child with a magnifier over an ant hill.
    Why would anyone want to believe that there is an omnipotent being that sits back and watches the Holocaust unfold? 
    Fuck that!

    It often comes back to this question about how god can allow suffering. If we would say that there is no god, wouldn’t there still be suffering? It would probably still be suffering but there would be no one to turn to, no comfort to get.  I prefer believing in god  just because it feels better. 
    I'm with Pj_Soul, if I believed there was a God who could stop children from starving and being raped, but chose not to for no good reason, I would hate that God for being such a dick.
    Yeah that's where I'm at.

    If god is all powerful and does nothing to end suffering then that isn't a god I'm interested in paying much attention to.
    Believe me I hate that too, evil humans.
    right....humans that are more powerful than god. 
    But how could a God take away our every way of evil? We have free will. What would we even be able to do freely if a God intervened? I don't think it's so easy to say that if there is a God they are spiteful to allow suffering. If you take the God concept as truth, then you recognize that the ability to create and control are different pieces of the puzzle. I guess we shouldn't procreate because our children may be the next mass murderer. We know the risks, but do so anyway.
    Excuse me....if you knew that god would immediately smite you if you fucked up, would you fuck up?
    What does it mean to "fuck up"? Is it reserved for rapists and murderers or does swindling $1,000 qualify? Much like the criminal justice system, people often know there will be a consequence, but due to either emotion or lack there of, we do it anyway. I don't see that changing under any circumstances. Sure, it may have a slight impact, but to err is human. We are a flawed creation.
    Just imagine if God actually clearly laid out the rules and punishments and then actually administered them?
    God says, don't steal or you'll get Herpes.
    You steal.  Boom, Herpes.


    Sure seems like a no brainer system to me.
    That system requires zero faith.
    If everyone saw God immediate smite down anyone who did anything wrong of course we'd all be perfect. But there would be zero faith, and essentially have taken away or free will to choose to do good or evil through fear.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 38,408
    edited January 11
    tbergs said:
    tbergs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    So a sincere question for non believers, if you could choose, would you want there to be a God or not?
    Absolutely not, if that God operates in this reality.
    Why would I want a wantonly malicious and supremely vain deity sitting in the sky like a child with a magnifier over an ant hill.
    Why would anyone want to believe that there is an omnipotent being that sits back and watches the Holocaust unfold? 
    Fuck that!

    It often comes back to this question about how god can allow suffering. If we would say that there is no god, wouldn’t there still be suffering? It would probably still be suffering but there would be no one to turn to, no comfort to get.  I prefer believing in god  just because it feels better. 
    I'm with Pj_Soul, if I believed there was a God who could stop children from starving and being raped, but chose not to for no good reason, I would hate that God for being such a dick.
    Yeah that's where I'm at.

    If god is all powerful and does nothing to end suffering then that isn't a god I'm interested in paying much attention to.
    Believe me I hate that too, evil humans.
    right....humans that are more powerful than god. 
    But how could a God take away our every way of evil? We have free will. What would we even be able to do freely if a God intervened? I don't think it's so easy to say that if there is a God they are spiteful to allow suffering. If you take the God concept as truth, then you recognize that the ability to create and control are different pieces of the puzzle. I guess we shouldn't procreate because our children may be the next mass murderer. We know the risks, but do so anyway.
    Excuse me....if you knew that god would immediately smite you if you fucked up, would you fuck up?
    What does it mean to "fuck up"? Is it reserved for rapists and murderers or does swindling $1,000 qualify? Much like the criminal justice system, people often know there will be a consequence, but due to either emotion or lack there of, we do it anyway. I don't see that changing under any circumstances. Sure, it may have a slight impact, but to err is human. We are a flawed creation.
    I'm trying to think about if I would change any of my behaviour if proof of God's existence and his position as judge, jury, and executioner was real too, and he was actually horrible enough to be damning people to hell for anything less than heinous shit.... Well, I dunno. On the one hand, I'd obviously not want to rot in hell, and would be inclined to dedicate my life to not ending up there... But I have no clue how I'd reconcile that with the fact that God is a complete asshole for being that way. I'd be mad as hell to find out that everyone's God is such a vengeful dick wad. So I'm not sure if I could get to Heaven no matter how much good I attempted to do on Earth, lol. God supposedly demands that you love him unconditionally. Well, I don't believe in unconditional love unless it's for your children.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 9,859
    mace1229 said:
    rgambs said:
    tbergs said:
    tbergs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    So a sincere question for non believers, if you could choose, would you want there to be a God or not?
    Absolutely not, if that God operates in this reality.
    Why would I want a wantonly malicious and supremely vain deity sitting in the sky like a child with a magnifier over an ant hill.
    Why would anyone want to believe that there is an omnipotent being that sits back and watches the Holocaust unfold? 
    Fuck that!

    It often comes back to this question about how god can allow suffering. If we would say that there is no god, wouldn’t there still be suffering? It would probably still be suffering but there would be no one to turn to, no comfort to get.  I prefer believing in god  just because it feels better. 
    I'm with Pj_Soul, if I believed there was a God who could stop children from starving and being raped, but chose not to for no good reason, I would hate that God for being such a dick.
    Yeah that's where I'm at.

    If god is all powerful and does nothing to end suffering then that isn't a god I'm interested in paying much attention to.
    Believe me I hate that too, evil humans.
    right....humans that are more powerful than god. 
    But how could a God take away our every way of evil? We have free will. What would we even be able to do freely if a God intervened? I don't think it's so easy to say that if there is a God they are spiteful to allow suffering. If you take the God concept as truth, then you recognize that the ability to create and control are different pieces of the puzzle. I guess we shouldn't procreate because our children may be the next mass murderer. We know the risks, but do so anyway.
    Excuse me....if you knew that god would immediately smite you if you fucked up, would you fuck up?
    What does it mean to "fuck up"? Is it reserved for rapists and murderers or does swindling $1,000 qualify? Much like the criminal justice system, people often know there will be a consequence, but due to either emotion or lack there of, we do it anyway. I don't see that changing under any circumstances. Sure, it may have a slight impact, but to err is human. We are a flawed creation.
    Just imagine if God actually clearly laid out the rules and punishments and then actually administered them?
    God says, don't steal or you'll get Herpes.
    You steal.  Boom, Herpes.


    Sure seems like a no brainer system to me.
    That system requires zero faith.
    If everyone saw God immediate smite down anyone who did anything wrong of course we'd all be perfect. But there would be zero faith, and essentially have taken away or free will to choose to do good or evil through fear.
    We see people get out in prison for breaking the law everyday and people still break the law.
    Why does there need to be faith?  Why can't there be confidence?
    The idea that free will must be unrestrained and unpunished is just another platitude devised to defend what obviously doesn't make sense.

    Why must there be evil?  Can't there be discomfort and betrayal and all sorts of problems without the extremes?  I understand and agree with the concept that you can't appreciate good without bad, but come on, the Holocaust?  Can't there be an upward limit to suffering?  Yes.  There could.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom'sPosts: 6,675
    The free will argument is a cop out.  That is the argument you use when you are backed into a corner for believing in an invisible man.
    Former BernieBro, turned Hillary rotten Clinton #1 Fanboy

    1998: Noblesville
    2003: Noblesville
    2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville
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    2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
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