"The mind's eye"/Mental Visualization - Do you have Aphantasia??

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Comments

  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 12,120
    god I can't stand one of my coworkers sometimes. Just went to him to ask him how he visualizes things, and he and I are the same, and he went on this rant about how every hypochondriac is now going to take this survey (on BBC's website) and think they have a condition. He thinks we all just perceive things in different ways, and there's no way to quantify it. all by me just telling him about PJSoul's comments. Yeah, because he's cornered the market on brain research. Fuck. 
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 37,932
    edited December 5
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    I wonder if this is more like a continuum than merely you can or can't picture things in your head?  I can think of things and then see them in my head, mostly still images but to some degree, movement, like maybe a particularly great excerpt from live musical footage or a scene in a movie.  I don't see these things with my eyes (be they open or closed), but I can see them in my head. 

    But some people can see much more.  Temple Grandin, for example, who has a difficult time with abstract subjects, can look at a page in a book about something abstract (say, philosophy) and then walk around all day looking at that page in her head and studying it until it makes more sense. 
    Yes Brian, it comes in degrees. Some, like me, can literally not visualize anything at all. Others report it is more vague, or fuzzy, or even cartoonish in some way, while others say they can visualize everything as clearly as if it were real and in front of them (be it true representation or not - it's not like visualizations are always accurate... clearly they are not, and people's memories are not always accurate), and they are seeing in their mind's eye all the time like a running movie.People like that are classified as "hyperphantasic". Sounds like chadwick may be one of those. My mother is too I think. And yeah, I understand this is not seeing with the eyes. It is seeing in the "mind's eye". I think I only understand the difference because I thankfully still dream visually, so I get the different between seeing with your eyes and seeing in your head.... I just can't see in my head while I'm conscious. It's just blackness. I replace this visualization with language I guess - an inner monologue only, describing everything I guess, and then by just... knowing it without seeing it. I thought this was normal.
    maybe it is normal. maybe no one could really quantify it until now. maybe it's like being blind, where in the absence of one sense,  your other senses are heightened. maybe you are a superhero! (sorry, not trying to make light of it, but it honestly could be more normal than you think, or an evolutionary thing-I think people discount the latter way too often when things like this are discovered). 
    Well, after speaking with one friend who has his PhD in educational psychology, and yes, he thinks that I've actually been working double-time to compensate for my lack of a mind's eye, and he was nice enough to tell me that he was impressed by how well I've done, considering that I'm basically totally lacking a sense that is connected to memory and deciphering all stimuli. Yes, it is indeed kind of like a blind person adjusting to the lack of vision by sharpening other senses, according to him (and he is fucking brilliant and insightful, so it was really interesting to hear his take). He is the one of the people who suggested this could have real implications in the educational field.
    I am very interested what the cause might be... nobody knows yet. I know I was born like this though. Brain defect?? I'm less and less thinking of this as a disability though. It's just different. But there are differences even between those without a mind's eye, I'm finding, especially when it comes to language and imagination. I brought this up specifically with the Doctor who is leading the research on this, and he told me that this is one of his main focuses too. I am officially a participant in his research now, so I'll definitely be keeping up with whatever is going on with that. :)
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • HesCalledDyerHesCalledDyer MarylandPosts: 9,589
    I dunno, I don't think it means you see the images with your eyes onto the back of your eyelids or whatever object appears in front of you, like you're projecting a hologram in front of yourself.  But that you can think about them and conjure up in your brain what it would look like. 

    Like, when reading a book and the author describes the character's appearance and you can imagine what a little boy with red hair, freckles, a corduroy jacket, and tattered brown shoes looks like.  Like, I can "picture" that boy in my mind right now, and I can "picture" the brown lunch bag he might be carrying in his right hand, and the rock he just kicked with his right foot skipping down the sidewalk.  But I don't see a literal image of him with my actual eyes, I can conjure it up in my mind. 

    I can think of my morning routine and I can envision myself in front of my bathroom sink, with the glass shelf and mirror in front of me, deodorant and medicine bottles, my toothbrush cup to the right, the water spots on the faucet, and my reflection in the mirror as I brush my teeth.  I can imagine myself driving home from work this evening, my right hand on the gear shifter, the Ford logo in the center of the steering wheel, the dials on the dashboard console, and the lines on the road home. I can imagine myself in a baseball uniform hitting a home run and rounding the bases while the crowd cheers me on and low-fiving the third base coach as I head for home, my cleats stepping on the plate before I head back to the dugout - even though that has never happened, I can picture the routine. 

    I don't see any of this with my eyes as if it were right in front of me, or as if my eyelids are a movie screen.  And I don't even have to close my eyes to imagine what those things look like, either.  But I can "see" them subconsciously. Maybe some actually do "see" these things with their eyes as if they're right in front of them, which is probably just a more vivid, advanced version of the perception I'm capable of, and perhaps just as rare as not being able to perceive anything whatsoever.

    Now, when I close my eyes what I literally "see" on the back of my eyelids is just the reddish green fuzziness from having your eyes closed.  But I can still "picture in my mind" all the things I just described.  Maybe I'm totally wrong but, from what I've read, I'm understanding it the same way Hugh is.  And, I, too, have always thought that's what was meant by "visualizing" and "mental pictures."  And that people affected by this can't do the things I described. 
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 37,932
    edited December 5
    Right, I know it doesn't mean you see anything with your actual eyes. It's your mind's eye. I get the concept completely. I understand the difference. I do not see anything with my mind's eye at all. Like when I read about that boy with the freckles, no, I can't picture anything in my mind. It's just blackness in my mind's eye. Blackness I guess is the best way I can describe it. I would say it's nothingness... Maybe more accurate because it doesn't feel like my mind's eye isn't functioning properly. It's like I don't have one at all, and in its place is an internal monologue (not auditory) without picturing a thing. I can't fucking believe that you folks are able to actually picture stuff in your mind, lol.
    One of my colleagues told me to "picture a triangle". Well, I can't. So he asked, well, what are you thinking about?? I just said that I was thinking about a triangle, what do you mean?? He asked me how big is it, and what colour is it? ... I don't fucking know. Whatever size or colour I feel like saying? I'd just be making it up, like just choosing how big it is and what colour it is randomly and just saying that? The question actually feels like a logical absurdity to me. :confused:

    .... This is weird. I am getting the impression it must be pretty hard to understand how my mind is working for those who have a mind's eye. I think I can only better understand what you all mean by having one because I am fortunately still able to dream visually. I can't imagine what it's like for people with aphantasia who can't even dream visually. The mind's eye must be a bigger mystery to them.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 9,539
    The question that is interesting to me is how a person would learn to write without visualisation.
    Are you sitting there thinking, OK I need to write an M, so start at bottom, straight up, stop, down and right at less than 45 degrees, stop, up and right, stop, down?

    How do you go about learning a new letter?
    How on Earth could you learn a logographic language like Mandarin?

    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 12,120
    I'm not at all trying to be argumentative, I'm trying to understand this. I just can't picture (pun NOT intended) not being able to picture something in my mind. the concept doesn't compute. when you say you are thinking of a triangle, what is in your head, exactly?
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 9,539
    PJ_Soul said:
    Right, I know it doesn't mean you see anything with your actual eyes. It's your mind's eye. I get the concept completely. I understand the difference. I do not see anything with my mind's eye at all. Like when I read about that boy with the freckles, no, I can't picture anything in my mind. It's just blackness in my mind's eye. Blackness I guess is the best way I can describe it. I would say it's nothingness... Maybe more accurate because it doesn't feel like my mind's eye isn't functioning properly. It's like I don't have one at all, and in its place is an internal monologue (not auditory) without picturing a thing. I can't fucking believe that you folks are able to actually picture stuff in your mind, lol.
    One of my colleagues told me to "picture a triangle". Well, I can't. So he asked, well, what are you thinking about?? I just said that I was thinking about a triangle, what do you mean?? He asked me how big is it, and what colour is it? ... I don't fucking know. Whatever size or colour I feel like saying? I'd just be making it up, like just choosing how big it is and what colour it is randomly and just saying that? The question actually feels like a logical absurdity to me. :confused:

    .... This is weird. I am getting the impression it must be pretty hard to understand how my mind is working for those who have a mind's eye. I think I can only better understand what you all mean by having one because I am fortunately still able to dream visually. I can't imagine what it's like for people with aphantasia who can't even dream visually. The mind's eye must be a bigger mystery to them.
    If someone asks you to draw a triangle, how do you proceed?
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 37,932
    edited December 5
    rgambs said:
    The question that is interesting to me is how a person would learn to write without visualisation.
    Are you sitting there thinking, OK I need to write an M, so start at bottom, straight up, stop, down and right at less than 45 degrees, stop, up and right, stop, down?

    How do you go about learning a new letter?
    How on Earth could you learn a logographic language like Mandarin?

    Yes rgambs, you seem to understand exactly, because that is absolutely what the process of writing letters is for me, although it's easy, not as tedious as it looks when it's typed out like that. How do most people do it?? While I get the concept of the mind's eye, I'm not sure I understand how people are translating it in this context I guess. So when you write, you actually picture what the letters look like and then essentially copy it onto the paper????
    How do I learn a new letter or shape? ... I dunno, I just remember and.... then I know it? I'm clearly still struggling to put such things into words. Until 2 days ago, I thought this was the only way it could be done, so I've never thought to try and describe it before.

    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 9,539
    PJ_Soul said:
    rgambs said:
    The question that is interesting to me is how a person would learn to write without visualisation.
    Are you sitting there thinking, OK I need to write an M, so start at bottom, straight up, stop, down and right at less than 45 degrees, stop, up and right, stop, down?

    How do you go about learning a new letter?
    How on Earth could you learn a logographic language like Mandarin?

    Yes rgambs, you seem to understand exactly, because that is absolutely what the process of writing letters is for me, although it's easy, not as tedious as it looks when it's put into words like that. How do most people do it?? While I get the concept of the mind's eye, I'm not sure I understand how people are translating it in this context I guess. So when you write, you actually picture what the letters look like and then essentially copy it onto the paper????
    How do I learn a new letter or shape? ... I dunno, I just remember and.... then I know it? I'm clearly still struggling to put such things into words. Until 2 days ago, I thought this was the only way it could be done, so I've never thought to try and describe it before.

    I/we don't picture the letters explicitly in most cases, rote muscle memory renders that unnecessary, but for more complicated symbols, I would picture the symbol, pick a starting point, and try to recreate it from the image in my head.
    Say I wanted to draw Homer Simpson, I would picture him for as long as it took until I thought I had the image accurate, which may take minutes, and then try to recreate from there. 
    I absolutely do not understand how someone could create realist art and reproduce an image like a cartoon character without visualising it.  Unfathomable to me.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 37,932
    edited December 5
    god I can't stand one of my coworkers sometimes. Just went to him to ask him how he visualizes things, and he and I are the same, and he went on this rant about how every hypochondriac is now going to take this survey (on BBC's website) and think they have a condition. He thinks we all just perceive things in different ways, and there's no way to quantify it. all by me just telling him about PJSoul's comments. Yeah, because he's cornered the market on brain research. Fuck. 
    :lol: This is definitely not a case of hypochondria, lol. This is very specific and identifiable thing IMO. I mean, people can either visualize things in their minds to one degree or another, or they can't. Seems pretty black and white to me TBH. I don't think your co-worker has considered the ramifications of the difference between being able to and not being able to though. That part is complicated as fuck I think. I feel like I've barely scratched the surface... the questions rgambs is asking are helpful to me though. Those kinds of things are starting to bring it home a little bit more.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 12,120
    PJ_Soul said:
    god I can't stand one of my coworkers sometimes. Just went to him to ask him how he visualizes things, and he and I are the same, and he went on this rant about how every hypochondriac is now going to take this survey (on BBC's website) and think they have a condition. He thinks we all just perceive things in different ways, and there's no way to quantify it. all by me just telling him about PJSoul's comments. Yeah, because he's cornered the market on brain research. Fuck. 
    :lol: This is definitely not a case of hypochondria, lol. This is very specific and identifiable thing IMO. I mean, people can either visualize things in their minds to one degree or another, or they can't. Seems pretty black and white to me TBH. I don't think your co-worker has considered the ramifications of the difference between being able to and not being able to though. That part is complicated as fuck I think. I feel like I've barely scratched the surface... the questions rgambs is asking are helpful to me though. Those kinds of things are starting to bring it home a little bit more.
    i was thinking along the same lines as gambs (although in much less intellectual terms, lol), actually. the thought occurred to me that "how could someone draw even a stick figure withougt being able to visualize it?". that doesn't make sense to me. 

    my coworker is just always suspicious of anything that doesn't happen to him, and he's right, 100% of the time. you try to have a discussion and all of a sudden he's "teaching" me something. He claims it his is "opinion", but when presented as fact while he shakes his head with a "you're an idiot" smirk on his face, that's not an opinion. that's a dick sandwich. 

    you should hear him during NFL season with the pool her runs. Fuck if he doesn't apply for a head coaching position. he knows it all! 
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 37,932
    edited December 5
    rgambs said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    rgambs said:
    The question that is interesting to me is how a person would learn to write without visualisation.
    Are you sitting there thinking, OK I need to write an M, so start at bottom, straight up, stop, down and right at less than 45 degrees, stop, up and right, stop, down?

    How do you go about learning a new letter?
    How on Earth could you learn a logographic language like Mandarin?

    Yes rgambs, you seem to understand exactly, because that is absolutely what the process of writing letters is for me, although it's easy, not as tedious as it looks when it's put into words like that. How do most people do it?? While I get the concept of the mind's eye, I'm not sure I understand how people are translating it in this context I guess. So when you write, you actually picture what the letters look like and then essentially copy it onto the paper????
    How do I learn a new letter or shape? ... I dunno, I just remember and.... then I know it? I'm clearly still struggling to put such things into words. Until 2 days ago, I thought this was the only way it could be done, so I've never thought to try and describe it before.

    I/we don't picture the letters explicitly in most cases, rote muscle memory renders that unnecessary, but for more complicated symbols, I would picture the symbol, pick a starting point, and try to recreate it from the image in my head.
    Say I wanted to draw Homer Simpson, I would picture him for as long as it took until I thought I had the image accurate, which may take minutes, and then try to recreate from there. 
    I absolutely do not understand how someone could create realist art and reproduce an image like a cartoon character without visualising it.  Unfathomable to me.
    Wow. Yeah, I understand how it must be unfathomable to you.... It is equally crazy to me that you can actually conjure an honest to god image in your head before you put it on paper. I mean, I can do it. I just kind of think about it and... do it.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 37,932
    edited December 5
    PJ_Soul said:
    god I can't stand one of my coworkers sometimes. Just went to him to ask him how he visualizes things, and he and I are the same, and he went on this rant about how every hypochondriac is now going to take this survey (on BBC's website) and think they have a condition. He thinks we all just perceive things in different ways, and there's no way to quantify it. all by me just telling him about PJSoul's comments. Yeah, because he's cornered the market on brain research. Fuck. 
    :lol: This is definitely not a case of hypochondria, lol. This is very specific and identifiable thing IMO. I mean, people can either visualize things in their minds to one degree or another, or they can't. Seems pretty black and white to me TBH. I don't think your co-worker has considered the ramifications of the difference between being able to and not being able to though. That part is complicated as fuck I think. I feel like I've barely scratched the surface... the questions rgambs is asking are helpful to me though. Those kinds of things are starting to bring it home a little bit more.
    i was thinking along the same lines as gambs (although in much less intellectual terms, lol), actually. the thought occurred to me that "how could someone draw even a stick figure withougt being able to visualize it?". that doesn't make sense to me. 

    my coworker is just always suspicious of anything that doesn't happen to him, and he's right, 100% of the time. you try to have a discussion and all of a sudden he's "teaching" me something. He claims it his is "opinion", but when presented as fact while he shakes his head with a "you're an idiot" smirk on his face, that's not an opinion. that's a dick sandwich. 

    you should hear him during NFL season with the pool her runs. Fuck if he doesn't apply for a head coaching position. he knows it all! 
    :rofl: Oh man, I love a good co-worker rant... there should be a thread for that!

    Well anyway... I have to admit, I do wish I was able to visualize like this.... especially for reading. I think that is the most shocking revelation. I am a really avid reader of fiction. I love it. But apparently most people can actually "see" what they're reading?! Doesn't that make the book kind of like a movie playing in your head??? And if people are reading like that, why in the fuck aren't a LOT more people obsessed with reading????? If I suddenly gained this ability, I don't know if I'd even leave my house again if I could actually visualize what I'm reading in novels!
    And that makes me wonder... how in the world does one watch a movie if they've got images going through their heads?? Doesn't one thing kind of interrupt the other? Like, you're watching a movie, and then you think about your friend or whatever and that person's face is now being pictured in your mind... what, do you just picture shit in your mind's eye and watch something with your actual eyes simultaneously? Do you re-visualize what you're watching?? I feel like it must be overwhelming.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 12,120
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    god I can't stand one of my coworkers sometimes. Just went to him to ask him how he visualizes things, and he and I are the same, and he went on this rant about how every hypochondriac is now going to take this survey (on BBC's website) and think they have a condition. He thinks we all just perceive things in different ways, and there's no way to quantify it. all by me just telling him about PJSoul's comments. Yeah, because he's cornered the market on brain research. Fuck. 
    :lol: This is definitely not a case of hypochondria, lol. This is very specific and identifiable thing IMO. I mean, people can either visualize things in their minds to one degree or another, or they can't. Seems pretty black and white to me TBH. I don't think your co-worker has considered the ramifications of the difference between being able to and not being able to though. That part is complicated as fuck I think. I feel like I've barely scratched the surface... the questions rgambs is asking are helpful to me though. Those kinds of things are starting to bring it home a little bit more.
    i was thinking along the same lines as gambs (although in much less intellectual terms, lol), actually. the thought occurred to me that "how could someone draw even a stick figure withougt being able to visualize it?". that doesn't make sense to me. 

    my coworker is just always suspicious of anything that doesn't happen to him, and he's right, 100% of the time. you try to have a discussion and all of a sudden he's "teaching" me something. He claims it his is "opinion", but when presented as fact while he shakes his head with a "you're an idiot" smirk on his face, that's not an opinion. that's a dick sandwich. 

    you should hear him during NFL season with the pool her runs. Fuck if he doesn't apply for a head coaching position. he knows it all! 
    :rofl: Oh man, I love a good co-worker rant... there should be a thread for that!

    Well anyway... I have to admit, I do wish I was able to visualize like this.... especially for reading. I think that is the most shocking revelation. I am a really avid reader of fiction. I love it. But apparently most people can actually "see" what they're reading?! Doesn't that make the book kind of like a movie??? And if people are reading like that, why in the fuck aren't a LOT more people obsessed with reading????? If I suddenly gained this ability, I don't know if I'd even leave my house again if I could actually visualize what I'm reading in novels!
    And that makes me wonder... how in the world does one watch a movie if they've got images going through their heads?? Doesn't one thing kind of interrupt the other? Like, you're watching a movie, and then you think about your friend or whatever and that person's face is now being pictured in your mind... what, do you just picture shit in your mind's eye and watch something with your actual eyes simultaneously? Do you re-visualize what you're watching?? I feel like it must be overwhelming.
    oh, but there is, PJ, there is:

    http://community.pearljam.com/discussion/242859/irritating-office-behavior#latest

    what I think you are doing here is conflating what it is we see. or maybe I'm just taking it for granted, or maybe a bit of both. at least for me, the images aren't vivid. it's like having a dream and then waking up and trying to remember when your dream was about; more vague like that. 

    and you don't have images running through your head when watching a movie, or even in everyday life, unless something triggers a memory. you aren't concentrating on both at the same time getting all boggled with images. it's not like that. it would be the same as reading a book, and then getting distracted by your favourite song; you are still looking at the words, but you aren't taking in the information, so you aren't be inundated with information. 
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 9,539
    Sometime you should draw a triangle and be as conscious of your thought process and the result as you can, I'd be very interested to hear how it works.
    For instance, I know already that at any given moment if I'm randomly asked to draw a triangle, it will be equilateral and not right or isoceles because that's what I automatically picture.  How would you decide which to draw?  I'm guessing it's so innate you can't even describe it.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 9,539
    Ok, I don't want to freak you out, but I'm gonna lol

    You realize now that the phrase "picture you naked" is literal?

    :lol:
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 12,120
    rgambs said:
    Ok, I don't want to freak you out, but I'm gonna lol

    You realize now that the phrase "picture you naked" is literal?

    :lol:
    :rofl:

    oh, is it ever!
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 37,932
    edited December 5
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    god I can't stand one of my coworkers sometimes. Just went to him to ask him how he visualizes things, and he and I are the same, and he went on this rant about how every hypochondriac is now going to take this survey (on BBC's website) and think they have a condition. He thinks we all just perceive things in different ways, and there's no way to quantify it. all by me just telling him about PJSoul's comments. Yeah, because he's cornered the market on brain research. Fuck. 
    :lol: This is definitely not a case of hypochondria, lol. This is very specific and identifiable thing IMO. I mean, people can either visualize things in their minds to one degree or another, or they can't. Seems pretty black and white to me TBH. I don't think your co-worker has considered the ramifications of the difference between being able to and not being able to though. That part is complicated as fuck I think. I feel like I've barely scratched the surface... the questions rgambs is asking are helpful to me though. Those kinds of things are starting to bring it home a little bit more.
    i was thinking along the same lines as gambs (although in much less intellectual terms, lol), actually. the thought occurred to me that "how could someone draw even a stick figure withougt being able to visualize it?". that doesn't make sense to me. 

    my coworker is just always suspicious of anything that doesn't happen to him, and he's right, 100% of the time. you try to have a discussion and all of a sudden he's "teaching" me something. He claims it his is "opinion", but when presented as fact while he shakes his head with a "you're an idiot" smirk on his face, that's not an opinion. that's a dick sandwich. 

    you should hear him during NFL season with the pool her runs. Fuck if he doesn't apply for a head coaching position. he knows it all! 
    :rofl: Oh man, I love a good co-worker rant... there should be a thread for that!

    Well anyway... I have to admit, I do wish I was able to visualize like this.... especially for reading. I think that is the most shocking revelation. I am a really avid reader of fiction. I love it. But apparently most people can actually "see" what they're reading?! Doesn't that make the book kind of like a movie??? And if people are reading like that, why in the fuck aren't a LOT more people obsessed with reading????? If I suddenly gained this ability, I don't know if I'd even leave my house again if I could actually visualize what I'm reading in novels!
    And that makes me wonder... how in the world does one watch a movie if they've got images going through their heads?? Doesn't one thing kind of interrupt the other? Like, you're watching a movie, and then you think about your friend or whatever and that person's face is now being pictured in your mind... what, do you just picture shit in your mind's eye and watch something with your actual eyes simultaneously? Do you re-visualize what you're watching?? I feel like it must be overwhelming.
    oh, but there is, PJ, there is:

    http://community.pearljam.com/discussion/242859/irritating-office-behavior#latest

    what I think you are doing here is conflating what it is we see. or maybe I'm just taking it for granted, or maybe a bit of both. at least for me, the images aren't vivid. it's like having a dream and then waking up and trying to remember when your dream was about; more vague like that. 

    and you don't have images running through your head when watching a movie, or even in everyday life, unless something triggers a memory. you aren't concentrating on both at the same time getting all boggled with images. it's not like that. it would be the same as reading a book, and then getting distracted by your favourite song; you are still looking at the words, but you aren't taking in the information, so you aren't be inundated with information. 
    HA! I forgot about that thread!

    I do get that the pictures aren't vivid for everyone, but I have learned that they are extremely vivid for some. It is very much on a sliding scale. Like Chadwick said, it can be for some people like a constant movie running through your head. That is bananas! I guess people just learn to deal with whatever is going on in their heads, eh? My mom actually said she has to deliberately try to not focus on the images going through her head all the time just to focus on other things, like conversations, or when she is talking; sometimes she talks too slowly, and I only just learned it is because she is trying to speak while she's got really vivid images to contend with in her mind's eye, so it slows her down verbally - she said it even gave her some trouble in school when she was younger. Others have said it's more like it is for you - definitely present, but vague (some call it blurry). That is a good analogy about the book and music at the same time... I do that all the time - put on an awesome record while I'm reading a book, and then end up reading the same damn page 5 times over. :lol:
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 9,539
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    god I can't stand one of my coworkers sometimes. Just went to him to ask him how he visualizes things, and he and I are the same, and he went on this rant about how every hypochondriac is now going to take this survey (on BBC's website) and think they have a condition. He thinks we all just perceive things in different ways, and there's no way to quantify it. all by me just telling him about PJSoul's comments. Yeah, because he's cornered the market on brain research. Fuck. 
    :lol: This is definitely not a case of hypochondria, lol. This is very specific and identifiable thing IMO. I mean, people can either visualize things in their minds to one degree or another, or they can't. Seems pretty black and white to me TBH. I don't think your co-worker has considered the ramifications of the difference between being able to and not being able to though. That part is complicated as fuck I think. I feel like I've barely scratched the surface... the questions rgambs is asking are helpful to me though. Those kinds of things are starting to bring it home a little bit more.
    i was thinking along the same lines as gambs (although in much less intellectual terms, lol), actually. the thought occurred to me that "how could someone draw even a stick figure withougt being able to visualize it?". that doesn't make sense to me. 

    my coworker is just always suspicious of anything that doesn't happen to him, and he's right, 100% of the time. you try to have a discussion and all of a sudden he's "teaching" me something. He claims it his is "opinion", but when presented as fact while he shakes his head with a "you're an idiot" smirk on his face, that's not an opinion. that's a dick sandwich. 

    you should hear him during NFL season with the pool her runs. Fuck if he doesn't apply for a head coaching position. he knows it all! 
    :rofl: Oh man, I love a good co-worker rant... there should be a thread for that!

    Well anyway... I have to admit, I do wish I was able to visualize like this.... especially for reading. I think that is the most shocking revelation. I am a really avid reader of fiction. I love it. But apparently most people can actually "see" what they're reading?! Doesn't that make the book kind of like a movie??? And if people are reading like that, why in the fuck aren't a LOT more people obsessed with reading????? If I suddenly gained this ability, I don't know if I'd even leave my house again if I could actually visualize what I'm reading in novels!
    And that makes me wonder... how in the world does one watch a movie if they've got images going through their heads?? Doesn't one thing kind of interrupt the other? Like, you're watching a movie, and then you think about your friend or whatever and that person's face is now being pictured in your mind... what, do you just picture shit in your mind's eye and watch something with your actual eyes simultaneously? Do you re-visualize what you're watching?? I feel like it must be overwhelming.
    oh, but there is, PJ, there is:

    http://community.pearljam.com/discussion/242859/irritating-office-behavior#latest

    what I think you are doing here is conflating what it is we see. or maybe I'm just taking it for granted, or maybe a bit of both. at least for me, the images aren't vivid. it's like having a dream and then waking up and trying to remember when your dream was about; more vague like that. 

    and you don't have images running through your head when watching a movie, or even in everyday life, unless something triggers a memory. you aren't concentrating on both at the same time getting all boggled with images. it's not like that. it would be the same as reading a book, and then getting distracted by your favourite song; you are still looking at the words, but you aren't taking in the information, so you aren't be inundated with information. 
    Excellent verbalisation of how it is.

    I'll note too, that reading a book isn't exactly like watching a movie, it's more like watching a movie that is composed of still shots, motion scenes, and nonvisual description all intermingled.

    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 37,932
    rgambs said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    god I can't stand one of my coworkers sometimes. Just went to him to ask him how he visualizes things, and he and I are the same, and he went on this rant about how every hypochondriac is now going to take this survey (on BBC's website) and think they have a condition. He thinks we all just perceive things in different ways, and there's no way to quantify it. all by me just telling him about PJSoul's comments. Yeah, because he's cornered the market on brain research. Fuck. 
    :lol: This is definitely not a case of hypochondria, lol. This is very specific and identifiable thing IMO. I mean, people can either visualize things in their minds to one degree or another, or they can't. Seems pretty black and white to me TBH. I don't think your co-worker has considered the ramifications of the difference between being able to and not being able to though. That part is complicated as fuck I think. I feel like I've barely scratched the surface... the questions rgambs is asking are helpful to me though. Those kinds of things are starting to bring it home a little bit more.
    i was thinking along the same lines as gambs (although in much less intellectual terms, lol), actually. the thought occurred to me that "how could someone draw even a stick figure withougt being able to visualize it?". that doesn't make sense to me. 

    my coworker is just always suspicious of anything that doesn't happen to him, and he's right, 100% of the time. you try to have a discussion and all of a sudden he's "teaching" me something. He claims it his is "opinion", but when presented as fact while he shakes his head with a "you're an idiot" smirk on his face, that's not an opinion. that's a dick sandwich. 

    you should hear him during NFL season with the pool her runs. Fuck if he doesn't apply for a head coaching position. he knows it all! 
    :rofl: Oh man, I love a good co-worker rant... there should be a thread for that!

    Well anyway... I have to admit, I do wish I was able to visualize like this.... especially for reading. I think that is the most shocking revelation. I am a really avid reader of fiction. I love it. But apparently most people can actually "see" what they're reading?! Doesn't that make the book kind of like a movie??? And if people are reading like that, why in the fuck aren't a LOT more people obsessed with reading????? If I suddenly gained this ability, I don't know if I'd even leave my house again if I could actually visualize what I'm reading in novels!
    And that makes me wonder... how in the world does one watch a movie if they've got images going through their heads?? Doesn't one thing kind of interrupt the other? Like, you're watching a movie, and then you think about your friend or whatever and that person's face is now being pictured in your mind... what, do you just picture shit in your mind's eye and watch something with your actual eyes simultaneously? Do you re-visualize what you're watching?? I feel like it must be overwhelming.
    oh, but there is, PJ, there is:

    http://community.pearljam.com/discussion/242859/irritating-office-behavior#latest

    what I think you are doing here is conflating what it is we see. or maybe I'm just taking it for granted, or maybe a bit of both. at least for me, the images aren't vivid. it's like having a dream and then waking up and trying to remember when your dream was about; more vague like that. 

    and you don't have images running through your head when watching a movie, or even in everyday life, unless something triggers a memory. you aren't concentrating on both at the same time getting all boggled with images. it's not like that. it would be the same as reading a book, and then getting distracted by your favourite song; you are still looking at the words, but you aren't taking in the information, so you aren't be inundated with information. 
    Excellent verbalisation of how it is.

    I'll note too, that reading a book isn't exactly like watching a movie, it's more like watching a movie that is composed of still shots, motion scenes, and nonvisual description all intermingled.

    That is incredible.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 9,539
    PJ_Soul said:
    rgambs said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    god I can't stand one of my coworkers sometimes. Just went to him to ask him how he visualizes things, and he and I are the same, and he went on this rant about how every hypochondriac is now going to take this survey (on BBC's website) and think they have a condition. He thinks we all just perceive things in different ways, and there's no way to quantify it. all by me just telling him about PJSoul's comments. Yeah, because he's cornered the market on brain research. Fuck. 
    :lol: This is definitely not a case of hypochondria, lol. This is very specific and identifiable thing IMO. I mean, people can either visualize things in their minds to one degree or another, or they can't. Seems pretty black and white to me TBH. I don't think your co-worker has considered the ramifications of the difference between being able to and not being able to though. That part is complicated as fuck I think. I feel like I've barely scratched the surface... the questions rgambs is asking are helpful to me though. Those kinds of things are starting to bring it home a little bit more.
    i was thinking along the same lines as gambs (although in much less intellectual terms, lol), actually. the thought occurred to me that "how could someone draw even a stick figure withougt being able to visualize it?". that doesn't make sense to me. 

    my coworker is just always suspicious of anything that doesn't happen to him, and he's right, 100% of the time. you try to have a discussion and all of a sudden he's "teaching" me something. He claims it his is "opinion", but when presented as fact while he shakes his head with a "you're an idiot" smirk on his face, that's not an opinion. that's a dick sandwich. 

    you should hear him during NFL season with the pool her runs. Fuck if he doesn't apply for a head coaching position. he knows it all! 
    :rofl: Oh man, I love a good co-worker rant... there should be a thread for that!

    Well anyway... I have to admit, I do wish I was able to visualize like this.... especially for reading. I think that is the most shocking revelation. I am a really avid reader of fiction. I love it. But apparently most people can actually "see" what they're reading?! Doesn't that make the book kind of like a movie??? And if people are reading like that, why in the fuck aren't a LOT more people obsessed with reading????? If I suddenly gained this ability, I don't know if I'd even leave my house again if I could actually visualize what I'm reading in novels!
    And that makes me wonder... how in the world does one watch a movie if they've got images going through their heads?? Doesn't one thing kind of interrupt the other? Like, you're watching a movie, and then you think about your friend or whatever and that person's face is now being pictured in your mind... what, do you just picture shit in your mind's eye and watch something with your actual eyes simultaneously? Do you re-visualize what you're watching?? I feel like it must be overwhelming.
    oh, but there is, PJ, there is:

    http://community.pearljam.com/discussion/242859/irritating-office-behavior#latest

    what I think you are doing here is conflating what it is we see. or maybe I'm just taking it for granted, or maybe a bit of both. at least for me, the images aren't vivid. it's like having a dream and then waking up and trying to remember when your dream was about; more vague like that. 

    and you don't have images running through your head when watching a movie, or even in everyday life, unless something triggers a memory. you aren't concentrating on both at the same time getting all boggled with images. it's not like that. it would be the same as reading a book, and then getting distracted by your favourite song; you are still looking at the words, but you aren't taking in the information, so you aren't be inundated with information. 
    Excellent verbalisation of how it is.

    I'll note too, that reading a book isn't exactly like watching a movie, it's more like watching a movie that is composed of still shots, motion scenes, and nonvisual description all intermingled.

    That is incredible.
    It sure can be!  I have a very strong visual memory, not anything near true photographic, but definitely in the upper portion of the normative range.  It's a definite advantage.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 12,120
    PJ_Soul said:
    rgambs said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    god I can't stand one of my coworkers sometimes. Just went to him to ask him how he visualizes things, and he and I are the same, and he went on this rant about how every hypochondriac is now going to take this survey (on BBC's website) and think they have a condition. He thinks we all just perceive things in different ways, and there's no way to quantify it. all by me just telling him about PJSoul's comments. Yeah, because he's cornered the market on brain research. Fuck. 
    :lol: This is definitely not a case of hypochondria, lol. This is very specific and identifiable thing IMO. I mean, people can either visualize things in their minds to one degree or another, or they can't. Seems pretty black and white to me TBH. I don't think your co-worker has considered the ramifications of the difference between being able to and not being able to though. That part is complicated as fuck I think. I feel like I've barely scratched the surface... the questions rgambs is asking are helpful to me though. Those kinds of things are starting to bring it home a little bit more.
    i was thinking along the same lines as gambs (although in much less intellectual terms, lol), actually. the thought occurred to me that "how could someone draw even a stick figure withougt being able to visualize it?". that doesn't make sense to me. 

    my coworker is just always suspicious of anything that doesn't happen to him, and he's right, 100% of the time. you try to have a discussion and all of a sudden he's "teaching" me something. He claims it his is "opinion", but when presented as fact while he shakes his head with a "you're an idiot" smirk on his face, that's not an opinion. that's a dick sandwich. 

    you should hear him during NFL season with the pool her runs. Fuck if he doesn't apply for a head coaching position. he knows it all! 
    :rofl: Oh man, I love a good co-worker rant... there should be a thread for that!

    Well anyway... I have to admit, I do wish I was able to visualize like this.... especially for reading. I think that is the most shocking revelation. I am a really avid reader of fiction. I love it. But apparently most people can actually "see" what they're reading?! Doesn't that make the book kind of like a movie??? And if people are reading like that, why in the fuck aren't a LOT more people obsessed with reading????? If I suddenly gained this ability, I don't know if I'd even leave my house again if I could actually visualize what I'm reading in novels!
    And that makes me wonder... how in the world does one watch a movie if they've got images going through their heads?? Doesn't one thing kind of interrupt the other? Like, you're watching a movie, and then you think about your friend or whatever and that person's face is now being pictured in your mind... what, do you just picture shit in your mind's eye and watch something with your actual eyes simultaneously? Do you re-visualize what you're watching?? I feel like it must be overwhelming.
    oh, but there is, PJ, there is:

    http://community.pearljam.com/discussion/242859/irritating-office-behavior#latest

    what I think you are doing here is conflating what it is we see. or maybe I'm just taking it for granted, or maybe a bit of both. at least for me, the images aren't vivid. it's like having a dream and then waking up and trying to remember when your dream was about; more vague like that. 

    and you don't have images running through your head when watching a movie, or even in everyday life, unless something triggers a memory. you aren't concentrating on both at the same time getting all boggled with images. it's not like that. it would be the same as reading a book, and then getting distracted by your favourite song; you are still looking at the words, but you aren't taking in the information, so you aren't be inundated with information. 
    Excellent verbalisation of how it is.

    I'll note too, that reading a book isn't exactly like watching a movie, it's more like watching a movie that is composed of still shots, motion scenes, and nonvisual description all intermingled.

    That is incredible.
    I think I have an answer as to why I don't enjoy novels at all. I think maybe my visualization ability is on the low end. I love biographies, but not novels. Just can't get into them. never could. But Ronda Rousey's bio, for example, I read in a day. 
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 12,120
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    god I can't stand one of my coworkers sometimes. Just went to him to ask him how he visualizes things, and he and I are the same, and he went on this rant about how every hypochondriac is now going to take this survey (on BBC's website) and think they have a condition. He thinks we all just perceive things in different ways, and there's no way to quantify it. all by me just telling him about PJSoul's comments. Yeah, because he's cornered the market on brain research. Fuck. 
    :lol: This is definitely not a case of hypochondria, lol. This is very specific and identifiable thing IMO. I mean, people can either visualize things in their minds to one degree or another, or they can't. Seems pretty black and white to me TBH. I don't think your co-worker has considered the ramifications of the difference between being able to and not being able to though. That part is complicated as fuck I think. I feel like I've barely scratched the surface... the questions rgambs is asking are helpful to me though. Those kinds of things are starting to bring it home a little bit more.
    i was thinking along the same lines as gambs (although in much less intellectual terms, lol), actually. the thought occurred to me that "how could someone draw even a stick figure withougt being able to visualize it?". that doesn't make sense to me. 

    my coworker is just always suspicious of anything that doesn't happen to him, and he's right, 100% of the time. you try to have a discussion and all of a sudden he's "teaching" me something. He claims it his is "opinion", but when presented as fact while he shakes his head with a "you're an idiot" smirk on his face, that's not an opinion. that's a dick sandwich. 

    you should hear him during NFL season with the pool her runs. Fuck if he doesn't apply for a head coaching position. he knows it all! 
    :rofl: Oh man, I love a good co-worker rant... there should be a thread for that!

    Well anyway... I have to admit, I do wish I was able to visualize like this.... especially for reading. I think that is the most shocking revelation. I am a really avid reader of fiction. I love it. But apparently most people can actually "see" what they're reading?! Doesn't that make the book kind of like a movie??? And if people are reading like that, why in the fuck aren't a LOT more people obsessed with reading????? If I suddenly gained this ability, I don't know if I'd even leave my house again if I could actually visualize what I'm reading in novels!
    And that makes me wonder... how in the world does one watch a movie if they've got images going through their heads?? Doesn't one thing kind of interrupt the other? Like, you're watching a movie, and then you think about your friend or whatever and that person's face is now being pictured in your mind... what, do you just picture shit in your mind's eye and watch something with your actual eyes simultaneously? Do you re-visualize what you're watching?? I feel like it must be overwhelming.
    oh, but there is, PJ, there is:

    http://community.pearljam.com/discussion/242859/irritating-office-behavior#latest

    what I think you are doing here is conflating what it is we see. or maybe I'm just taking it for granted, or maybe a bit of both. at least for me, the images aren't vivid. it's like having a dream and then waking up and trying to remember when your dream was about; more vague like that. 

    and you don't have images running through your head when watching a movie, or even in everyday life, unless something triggers a memory. you aren't concentrating on both at the same time getting all boggled with images. it's not like that. it would be the same as reading a book, and then getting distracted by your favourite song; you are still looking at the words, but you aren't taking in the information, so you aren't be inundated with information. 
    HA! I forgot about that thread!

    I do get that the pictures aren't vivid for everyone, but I have learned that they are extremely vivid for some. It is very much on a sliding scale. Like Chadwick said, it can be for some people like a constant movie running through your head. That is bananas! I guess people just learn to deal with whatever is going on in their heads, eh? My mom actually said she has to deliberately try to not focus on the images going through her head all the time just to focus on other things, like conversations, or when she is talking; sometimes she talks too slowly, and I only just learned it is because she is trying to speak while she's got really vivid images to contend with in her mind's eye, so it slows her down verbally - she said it even gave her some trouble in school when she was younger. Others have said it's more like it is for you - definitely present, but vague (some call it blurry). That is a good analogy about the book and music at the same time... I do that all the time - put on an awesome record while I'm reading a book, and then end up reading the same damn page 5 times over. :lol:
    I can't even read the simplest of magazine articles with music on. people don't get this. being such a music lover. They assume I'd love to have music on 24/7 no matter what I'm doing. But I guess it hinders my ability to visualize when I'm constantly distracted by a good song. This all makes sense now. 
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 37,932
    edited December 5
    rgambs said:
    Ok, I don't want to freak you out, but I'm gonna lol

    You realize now that the phrase "picture you naked" is literal?

    :lol:
    :rofl:

    oh, is it ever!
    Oh my god, I hadn't even thought of that!!! :lol: ... Holy shit.... That is actually a little unsettling, lol. And totally unfair that I can't do the same, lol. I mean, I can think about it, but there's no mental picture. For me it is more like reading about a naked person... with no mental image (I'm not sure you guys know what it is like to read something without an accompanying mental picture though). Well now that trick for people who are afraid of public speaking makes so much more sense. "Just picture everyone naked." I always knew about that "trick" and always thought that it was the dumbest thing I ever heard - how could it be effective to just think about that? It really didn't make sense to me how people were getting anything about of such mental tricks. Huh. Now that I think about it, with terms like that, along with counting sheep, or go to your happy place, etc, I always did sense that maybe I was missing something, since others actually seemed to think it wasn't ludicrous and useless ... I just had no idea what I was missing (or maybe I thought people were, like, more gullible to their own thoughts than I am???). Now I know what I was missing. WOW.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 9,539
    PJ_Soul said:
    rgambs said:
    Ok, I don't want to freak you out, but I'm gonna lol

    You realize now that the phrase "picture you naked" is literal?

    :lol:
    :rofl:

    oh, is it ever!
    Oh my god, I hadn't even thought of that!!! :lol: ... Holy shit.... That is actually a little unsettling, lol. And totally unfair that I can't do the same, lol. Well now that trick for people who are afraid of public speaking makes so much more sense. "Just picture everyone naked." I always knew about that "trick" and always thought that it was the dumbest thing I ever heard - how could it be effective to just think about that? It really didn't make sense to me how people were getting anything about of such mental tricks. Huh. Now that I think about it, with terms like that, along with counting sheep, or go to your happy place, etc, I always did sense that maybe I was missing something, since others actually seemed to think it wasn't ludicrous and useless ... I just had no idea what I was missing (or maybe I thought people were, like, more gullible to their own thoughts than I am???). Now I know what I was missing. WOW.
    I don't know what I would do if I actually had to be in her vicinity to picture my wife's sweet.... face.

    There is definitely a sad side there, when someone dies, you never see them again.  A mental picture is a cold comfort, but it's a blazing fire compared to none at all.  Take photos of everything lol 
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 12,120
    I guess I'll know if someone suffers from this if their eyes never veer off during the conversation. I noticed just now that my aforementioned coworker and I were just having a conversation about taco shells (yeah, who the fuck knows), and I noticed my eyes went to the left to visualize it. I would imagine a non-visualizer's eyes never stray off course. 
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 12,120
    rgambs said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    rgambs said:
    Ok, I don't want to freak you out, but I'm gonna lol

    You realize now that the phrase "picture you naked" is literal?

    :lol:
    :rofl:

    oh, is it ever!
    Oh my god, I hadn't even thought of that!!! :lol: ... Holy shit.... That is actually a little unsettling, lol. And totally unfair that I can't do the same, lol. Well now that trick for people who are afraid of public speaking makes so much more sense. "Just picture everyone naked." I always knew about that "trick" and always thought that it was the dumbest thing I ever heard - how could it be effective to just think about that? It really didn't make sense to me how people were getting anything about of such mental tricks. Huh. Now that I think about it, with terms like that, along with counting sheep, or go to your happy place, etc, I always did sense that maybe I was missing something, since others actually seemed to think it wasn't ludicrous and useless ... I just had no idea what I was missing (or maybe I thought people were, like, more gullible to their own thoughts than I am???). Now I know what I was missing. WOW.
    I don't know what I would do if I actually had to be in her vicinity to picture my wife's sweet.... face.

    There is definitely a sad side there, when someone dies, you never see them again.  A mental picture is a cold comfort, but it's a blazing fire compared to none at all.  Take photos of everything lol 
    no kidding! I already beg my wife for an "adult" picture. she refuses. good thing I have my mind's eye whenever I need it!
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 37,932
    PJ_Soul said:
    rgambs said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    god I can't stand one of my coworkers sometimes. Just went to him to ask him how he visualizes things, and he and I are the same, and he went on this rant about how every hypochondriac is now going to take this survey (on BBC's website) and think they have a condition. He thinks we all just perceive things in different ways, and there's no way to quantify it. all by me just telling him about PJSoul's comments. Yeah, because he's cornered the market on brain research. Fuck. 
    :lol: This is definitely not a case of hypochondria, lol. This is very specific and identifiable thing IMO. I mean, people can either visualize things in their minds to one degree or another, or they can't. Seems pretty black and white to me TBH. I don't think your co-worker has considered the ramifications of the difference between being able to and not being able to though. That part is complicated as fuck I think. I feel like I've barely scratched the surface... the questions rgambs is asking are helpful to me though. Those kinds of things are starting to bring it home a little bit more.
    i was thinking along the same lines as gambs (although in much less intellectual terms, lol), actually. the thought occurred to me that "how could someone draw even a stick figure withougt being able to visualize it?". that doesn't make sense to me. 

    my coworker is just always suspicious of anything that doesn't happen to him, and he's right, 100% of the time. you try to have a discussion and all of a sudden he's "teaching" me something. He claims it his is "opinion", but when presented as fact while he shakes his head with a "you're an idiot" smirk on his face, that's not an opinion. that's a dick sandwich. 

    you should hear him during NFL season with the pool her runs. Fuck if he doesn't apply for a head coaching position. he knows it all! 
    :rofl: Oh man, I love a good co-worker rant... there should be a thread for that!

    Well anyway... I have to admit, I do wish I was able to visualize like this.... especially for reading. I think that is the most shocking revelation. I am a really avid reader of fiction. I love it. But apparently most people can actually "see" what they're reading?! Doesn't that make the book kind of like a movie??? And if people are reading like that, why in the fuck aren't a LOT more people obsessed with reading????? If I suddenly gained this ability, I don't know if I'd even leave my house again if I could actually visualize what I'm reading in novels!
    And that makes me wonder... how in the world does one watch a movie if they've got images going through their heads?? Doesn't one thing kind of interrupt the other? Like, you're watching a movie, and then you think about your friend or whatever and that person's face is now being pictured in your mind... what, do you just picture shit in your mind's eye and watch something with your actual eyes simultaneously? Do you re-visualize what you're watching?? I feel like it must be overwhelming.
    oh, but there is, PJ, there is:

    http://community.pearljam.com/discussion/242859/irritating-office-behavior#latest

    what I think you are doing here is conflating what it is we see. or maybe I'm just taking it for granted, or maybe a bit of both. at least for me, the images aren't vivid. it's like having a dream and then waking up and trying to remember when your dream was about; more vague like that. 

    and you don't have images running through your head when watching a movie, or even in everyday life, unless something triggers a memory. you aren't concentrating on both at the same time getting all boggled with images. it's not like that. it would be the same as reading a book, and then getting distracted by your favourite song; you are still looking at the words, but you aren't taking in the information, so you aren't be inundated with information. 
    Excellent verbalisation of how it is.

    I'll note too, that reading a book isn't exactly like watching a movie, it's more like watching a movie that is composed of still shots, motion scenes, and nonvisual description all intermingled.

    That is incredible.
    I think I have an answer as to why I don't enjoy novels at all. I think maybe my visualization ability is on the low end. I love biographies, but not novels. Just can't get into them. never could. But Ronda Rousey's bio, for example, I read in a day. 
    Yeah, could be... But I love novels and am not usually a big non-fiction fan, and I don't have any visualization at all... Although I guess I'm just ?conditioned? to live without any visualization 100% of the time anyhow, so simply taking in the words is adequate for my enjoyment?? I dunno. I certainly have a GREAT affinity for the written word (that might be why my posts are so fucking long, actually. Without visualization awareness, perhaps I feel the need to over-explain??). That is strange. I am a very slow reader though. I actually basically read every single word twice in order to kind of absorb the meaning of everything. The book is in words, and that is the way it stays as far as my perception of a novel goes... If I form in idea of what a character in a book looks like, that idea is also in the form of a description in words. Which reminds me, many have mentioned that they HATE book to movie adaptation most of the time because their mental pictures are so different from the movie... Well, I understand that. Movies adaptations often don't match my idea of what everything would look like either. But now I assume the depth of that feeling must be much more strong for those who actually visualize the book compared to whatever the fuck it is that I do.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 37,932
    edited December 5
    rgambs said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    rgambs said:
    Ok, I don't want to freak you out, but I'm gonna lol

    You realize now that the phrase "picture you naked" is literal?

    :lol:
    :rofl:

    oh, is it ever!
    Oh my god, I hadn't even thought of that!!! :lol: ... Holy shit.... That is actually a little unsettling, lol. And totally unfair that I can't do the same, lol. Well now that trick for people who are afraid of public speaking makes so much more sense. "Just picture everyone naked." I always knew about that "trick" and always thought that it was the dumbest thing I ever heard - how could it be effective to just think about that? It really didn't make sense to me how people were getting anything about of such mental tricks. Huh. Now that I think about it, with terms like that, along with counting sheep, or go to your happy place, etc, I always did sense that maybe I was missing something, since others actually seemed to think it wasn't ludicrous and useless ... I just had no idea what I was missing (or maybe I thought people were, like, more gullible to their own thoughts than I am???). Now I know what I was missing. WOW.
    I don't know what I would do if I actually had to be in her vicinity to picture my wife's sweet.... face.

    There is definitely a sad side there, when someone dies, you never see them again.  A mental picture is a cold comfort, but it's a blazing fire compared to none at all.  Take photos of everything lol 
    Yes, I have considered this... That is amazing that people actually do picture the face of their lost loved ones. I thought that was just a metaphorical term - a figurative comfort. From everything I've read in this short time, being able to do this is very important to people. Indeed, my first thought is definitely "that's what photos are for". I do have some issues with facial recognition btw, to the point where I've worried that I wouldn't recognize people I definitely should recognize. For instance, this is kind of a fear for me if I'm on my way to a second date. I start wondering if, when I arrive at the meeting spot, I'll actually recognize the guy I've already been on a date with.... So far I always have recognized him after all, but the concern is still there beforehand. I always thought this was just me being an idiot, lol.
    But no, obviously this is because I can't picture his face in my mind. I also have a great deal of trouble recognizing people I don't know well when they are out of context. Like a store clerk I see regularly, or the vet's assistant, or a new co-worker. If I run into acquaintances like this outside of their usual context (in the store, at the vet's, in the office), sometimes I don't recognize them, or feel very unsure about whether it's them or not. This has actually resulted in me saying hi to strangers because that is better than not saying hi to someone I know I should be able to recognize. This has also resulted in some very awkward moments, when someone I know from somewhere else comes up to me and says hi in a store or mall or wherever, and I have no clue who they are, and I actually have to ask "do I know you??" And they tell me who they are, and I'm all "oooohhhhhh, right. Sorry." :blush: It's very embarrassing. Or sometimes I'm so unsure if I know them or not I'll just be staring at them trying to figure out, and they just stare right back... Huh. Maybe those are the other aphantasiacs i know, and they are thinking the same thing I am. Sometimes I do end up realizing I've just been staring at the new temp or whoever, who I've spoken to many times before. :lol: Eventually I memorize their faces and I recognize them of course... And some people are much more memorable than others for one reason or another.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 37,932
    I guess I'll know if someone suffers from this if their eyes never veer off during the conversation. I noticed just now that my aforementioned coworker and I were just having a conversation about taco shells (yeah, who the fuck knows), and I noticed my eyes went to the left to visualize it. I would imagine a non-visualizer's eyes never stray off course. 
    Maybe sometimes. But I think I do look away like that in conversations to give myself a chance to formulate a thought - it's just that I'm monologuing to myself about it instead of visualizing it. Maybe your coworker is just one of those weirdos who makes way too much eye contact, lol. I think that is actually an intimidation tactic TBH. It's like his version of the Trump handshake. :lol:
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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