Tax Reform

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  • what dreamswhat dreams Posts: 939
    rgambs said:
    rgambs said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    rgambs said:
    Why can't we just do the only thing that makes sense and implement single payer. :anguished:
    Because I have zero interest in "Medicare for All." Dealing with my mother's Medicare provided health care -- it's a bullshit nightmare trying to get her what she needs. The only reason she's still alive at this point is her Kaiser Advantage Plan. To get any help from Medicare, you have to be practically dead.
    Then that system sucks too. So why not have a single payer system that isn't a pain in the ass?? Those exist in a lot of other places.
    There's another thread for health care, so I don't want to get too deep into it. But to answer your question, I personally am not interested in any kind of "managed care" system where other people decide what services I am eligible for depending on their matrix and protocols. I'm super satisfied with my preferred provider plan where I get my health care on demand. I decide which doctors, which treatments, and when. It would be wonderful if we could make what I have available and affordable to everybody. But I don't trust my government one bit to figure out how to do that. I don't trust my government to get anything right anymore. And that's a sad state of affairs.
    Being totally realistic. I have fantastic private insurance and I'm not interested diminishing my private health care for government issue.  It's the one damn thing I have going for me financially -- and I suppose I feel the same way about my health care as parents and home owners feel about their tax breaks. Hands off.


    Oh, how nice for you!  You get the holy grail of health coverage so you aren't concerned for everyone else.  
    Medicare and Medicaid are far less complicated and half the nightmare of private sector insurance.  I don't know what your experience is, but I bill insurance, both public and private, and it's a literal no-brainer.

    My experience is that I'm a caregiver for my very ill mother. Every time I turn around, Medicare is rejecting payment for basic things that old, sick people need because of some rule or another. Social workers give me wrong, conflicting answers at every turn, with the most recent example unexpectedly costing my family a whopping 10,000 bucks. 

    I do care very much about people. It's a lazy, tired argument to accuse people of being greedy and selfish just because they have faith in private enterprise. I would never say the private system is perfect. It is a tangled web. But when I compare how easy and simple my own cancer treatment was (paid by a private PPO) compared to my mother's end-of-life care through Medicare/Kaiser Advantage -- it's a fucking no-brainer to me as to which I prefer. I hope to hell when I'm old and dying that I do not have to depend on the federal government to help me. 
    Yeah, I just don't understand this at all.
    It is universally accepted to be the opposite within healthcare industries.
    I never expect you to understand anyone's point of view except your own.

    Now, back to thread integrity. About those children of yours that you expect me to subsidize--maybe if you paid your "fair share" of taxes, we'd all be better off.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 37,932
    You call that integrity? Christ.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 6,442
    rgambs said:
    rgambs said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    rgambs said:
    Why can't we just do the only thing that makes sense and implement single payer. :anguished:
    Because I have zero interest in "Medicare for All." Dealing with my mother's Medicare provided health care -- it's a bullshit nightmare trying to get her what she needs. The only reason she's still alive at this point is her Kaiser Advantage Plan. To get any help from Medicare, you have to be practically dead.
    Then that system sucks too. So why not have a single payer system that isn't a pain in the ass?? Those exist in a lot of other places.
    There's another thread for health care, so I don't want to get too deep into it. But to answer your question, I personally am not interested in any kind of "managed care" system where other people decide what services I am eligible for depending on their matrix and protocols. I'm super satisfied with my preferred provider plan where I get my health care on demand. I decide which doctors, which treatments, and when. It would be wonderful if we could make what I have available and affordable to everybody. But I don't trust my government one bit to figure out how to do that. I don't trust my government to get anything right anymore. And that's a sad state of affairs.
    Being totally realistic. I have fantastic private insurance and I'm not interested diminishing my private health care for government issue.  It's the one damn thing I have going for me financially -- and I suppose I feel the same way about my health care as parents and home owners feel about their tax breaks. Hands off.


    Oh, how nice for you!  You get the holy grail of health coverage so you aren't concerned for everyone else.  
    Medicare and Medicaid are far less complicated and half the nightmare of private sector insurance.  I don't know what your experience is, but I bill insurance, both public and private, and it's a literal no-brainer.

    My experience is that I'm a caregiver for my very ill mother. Every time I turn around, Medicare is rejecting payment for basic things that old, sick people need because of some rule or another. Social workers give me wrong, conflicting answers at every turn, with the most recent example unexpectedly costing my family a whopping 10,000 bucks. 

    I do care very much about people. It's a lazy, tired argument to accuse people of being greedy and selfish just because they have faith in private enterprise. I would never say the private system is perfect. It is a tangled web. But when I compare how easy and simple my own cancer treatment was (paid by a private PPO) compared to my mother's end-of-life care through Medicare/Kaiser Advantage -- it's a fucking no-brainer to me as to which I prefer. I hope to hell when I'm old and dying that I do not have to depend on the federal government to help me. 
    Yeah, I just don't understand this at all.
    It is universally accepted to be the opposite within healthcare industries.
    I never expect you to understand anyone's point of view except your own.

    Now, back to thread integrity. About those children of yours that you expect me to subsidize--maybe if you paid your "fair share" of taxes, we'd all be better off.
    There are lots of things that would make us all better off. Your post is not one of them. 
     
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 6,101
    rgambs said:
    rgambs said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    rgambs said:
    Why can't we just do the only thing that makes sense and implement single payer. :anguished:
    Because I have zero interest in "Medicare for All." Dealing with my mother's Medicare provided health care -- it's a bullshit nightmare trying to get her what she needs. The only reason she's still alive at this point is her Kaiser Advantage Plan. To get any help from Medicare, you have to be practically dead.
    Then that system sucks too. So why not have a single payer system that isn't a pain in the ass?? Those exist in a lot of other places.
    There's another thread for health care, so I don't want to get too deep into it. But to answer your question, I personally am not interested in any kind of "managed care" system where other people decide what services I am eligible for depending on their matrix and protocols. I'm super satisfied with my preferred provider plan where I get my health care on demand. I decide which doctors, which treatments, and when. It would be wonderful if we could make what I have available and affordable to everybody. But I don't trust my government one bit to figure out how to do that. I don't trust my government to get anything right anymore. And that's a sad state of affairs.
    Being totally realistic. I have fantastic private insurance and I'm not interested diminishing my private health care for government issue.  It's the one damn thing I have going for me financially -- and I suppose I feel the same way about my health care as parents and home owners feel about their tax breaks. Hands off.


    Oh, how nice for you!  You get the holy grail of health coverage so you aren't concerned for everyone else.  
    Medicare and Medicaid are far less complicated and half the nightmare of private sector insurance.  I don't know what your experience is, but I bill insurance, both public and private, and it's a literal no-brainer.

    My experience is that I'm a caregiver for my very ill mother. Every time I turn around, Medicare is rejecting payment for basic things that old, sick people need because of some rule or another. Social workers give me wrong, conflicting answers at every turn, with the most recent example unexpectedly costing my family a whopping 10,000 bucks. 

    I do care very much about people. It's a lazy, tired argument to accuse people of being greedy and selfish just because they have faith in private enterprise. I would never say the private system is perfect. It is a tangled web. But when I compare how easy and simple my own cancer treatment was (paid by a private PPO) compared to my mother's end-of-life care through Medicare/Kaiser Advantage -- it's a fucking no-brainer to me as to which I prefer. I hope to hell when I'm old and dying that I do not have to depend on the federal government to help me. 
    Yeah, I just don't understand this at all.
    It is universally accepted to be the opposite within healthcare industries.
    I never expect you to understand anyone's point of view except your own.

    Now, back to thread integrity. About those children of yours that you expect me to subsidize--maybe if you paid your "fair share" of taxes, we'd all be better off.
    Since a lot of people pay more in taxes than we do, your logic says we’re all being subsidized.
     
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 9,539
    rgambs said:
    rgambs said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    rgambs said:
    Why can't we just do the only thing that makes sense and implement single payer. :anguished:
    Because I have zero interest in "Medicare for All." Dealing with my mother's Medicare provided health care -- it's a bullshit nightmare trying to get her what she needs. The only reason she's still alive at this point is her Kaiser Advantage Plan. To get any help from Medicare, you have to be practically dead.
    Then that system sucks too. So why not have a single payer system that isn't a pain in the ass?? Those exist in a lot of other places.
    There's another thread for health care, so I don't want to get too deep into it. But to answer your question, I personally am not interested in any kind of "managed care" system where other people decide what services I am eligible for depending on their matrix and protocols. I'm super satisfied with my preferred provider plan where I get my health care on demand. I decide which doctors, which treatments, and when. It would be wonderful if we could make what I have available and affordable to everybody. But I don't trust my government one bit to figure out how to do that. I don't trust my government to get anything right anymore. And that's a sad state of affairs.
    Being totally realistic. I have fantastic private insurance and I'm not interested diminishing my private health care for government issue.  It's the one damn thing I have going for me financially -- and I suppose I feel the same way about my health care as parents and home owners feel about their tax breaks. Hands off.


    Oh, how nice for you!  You get the holy grail of health coverage so you aren't concerned for everyone else.  
    Medicare and Medicaid are far less complicated and half the nightmare of private sector insurance.  I don't know what your experience is, but I bill insurance, both public and private, and it's a literal no-brainer.

    My experience is that I'm a caregiver for my very ill mother. Every time I turn around, Medicare is rejecting payment for basic things that old, sick people need because of some rule or another. Social workers give me wrong, conflicting answers at every turn, with the most recent example unexpectedly costing my family a whopping 10,000 bucks. 

    I do care very much about people. It's a lazy, tired argument to accuse people of being greedy and selfish just because they have faith in private enterprise. I would never say the private system is perfect. It is a tangled web. But when I compare how easy and simple my own cancer treatment was (paid by a private PPO) compared to my mother's end-of-life care through Medicare/Kaiser Advantage -- it's a fucking no-brainer to me as to which I prefer. I hope to hell when I'm old and dying that I do not have to depend on the federal government to help me. 
    Yeah, I just don't understand this at all.
    It is universally accepted to be the opposite within healthcare industries.
    I never expect you to understand anyone's point of view except your own.

    Now, back to thread integrity. About those children of yours that you expect me to subsidize--maybe if you paid your "fair share" of taxes, we'd all be better off.
    Ha!  
    Isn't your freaking job subsidized? 

    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 7,814
    Fascinating thread... went off in lots of different directions, with liberals arguing with liberals.  I like it.  
    For me, my issue is that this is being sold as a tax break for the middle class.  It's not.  There are plenty of people, like me, who will end up paying more in taxes than before.  But I wouldn't mind losing some of the deductions that I have today, but just dont' BS by using "averages" when marketing it.  
    My bigger problem is the corp tax rate which is what's going to blow a hold in the deficit..a bigger whole.  There's just no evidence that reducing the rates by 15 percentage points is going to lead to higher wages or more jobs.  
    There's an entire generation of business people (again, like me) who were always taught that your number one obligation is to maximize the value of your shareholder...not your employees.  This money is going up, not down.  Never does.  
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 9,539
    Very true Matt.
    Employers employ more people when they have demand for more employees, not surplus of capital.
    It's one of the simplest pieces of the ideology that THEY hold so dear, and yet they conveniently forget it when tax bills roll around and they start with a socialist type thought process that if only we give them more money, they will spread it around for the good of society.
    What a load of bull.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 37,932
    edited December 1
    Said it before a zillion times: Trickle down economics doesn't fucking work. It is essentially just a crazy lie fed to masses so that politicians who get paid off by corporations can win votes.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • HesCalledDyerHesCalledDyer MarylandPosts: 9,589
    PJ_Soul said:
    Said it before a zillion times: Trickle down economics doesn't fucking work. It is essentially just a crazy lie fed to masses so that politicians who get paid off by corporations can win votes.
    Trickle down economics is what got these United States into the mess we're in today.  I hope Ronald Reagan's corpse has been eaten alive by worms, and those worms carry bacteria that infects the water that every single one of his voters drinks.  Worst economic President in modern history.  And the Republicants act like he's the second coming of Christ.  Fucker has an airport named after him.  One that I will never fly out of or into.  Fuck him, fuck trickle down, and fuck all the deregulation that got us into this mess of corporate greed and rich, old, white men.
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 7,814
    PJ_Soul said:
    Said it before a zillion times: Trickle down economics doesn't fucking work. It is essentially just a crazy lie fed to masses so that politicians who get paid off by corporations can win votes.
    Trickle down economics is what got these United States into the mess we're in today.  I hope Ronald Reagan's corpse has been eaten alive by worms, and those worms carry bacteria that infects the water that every single one of his voters drinks.  Worst economic President in modern history.  And the Republicants act like he's the second coming of Christ.  Fucker has an airport named after him.  One that I will never fly out of or into.  Fuck him, fuck trickle down, and fuck all the deregulation that got us into this mess of corporate greed and rich, old, white men.
    It's much nicer and convenient than BWI or Dulles...
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 37,932
    PJ_Soul said:
    Said it before a zillion times: Trickle down economics doesn't fucking work. It is essentially just a crazy lie fed to masses so that politicians who get paid off by corporations can win votes.
    Trickle down economics is what got these United States into the mess we're in today.  I hope Ronald Reagan's corpse has been eaten alive by worms, and those worms carry bacteria that infects the water that every single one of his voters drinks.  Worst economic President in modern history.  And the Republicants act like he's the second coming of Christ.  Fucker has an airport named after him.  One that I will never fly out of or into.  Fuck him, fuck trickle down, and fuck all the deregulation that got us into this mess of corporate greed and rich, old, white men.

    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 17,211
    Just take a look at Kansas they passed similar bill the state is in ruin because of it , these politicians don’t give a hoot about anyone’s welfare except their rich donations...
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 8,780
    (And these questions can be re-phrased and asked about 90% of what you asked)
  • bootlegger10bootlegger10 Posts: 9,767
    And boom goes the dynamite.  

    Our Congress sucks
  • igotid88igotid88 Posts: 14,034
    please vote next year and kick these republicans out. 
    I miss igotid88
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 10,082
    igotid88 said:
    please vote next year and kick these republicans out. 
    Untenable 
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

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  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 8,780

    It's almost wrong to call this legislative monstrosity a tax bill at all. It is more a top-to-bottom restructuring of American society — one which is a sharp attack on several bedrock American values: education, homeownership, and entrepreneurship.

    The biggest single goal of this bill is a huge tax cut for the top 1 percent. The bill slashes taxes on corporations, increases tax benefits for foreign dividends, and cuts taxes for "pass-through" corporations (which will immediately become the new hotness in tax shelter legal chicanery). Ultra-wealthy heirs get a particular bonus through the abolishment of the inheritance tax. All that will be partially paid for by jacking up taxes on graduate students by up to 400 percent, limiting homeownership tax benefits, repealing the ObamaCare individual mandate, changing inflation calculations to increase taxes more broadly, and by cutting the deduction for state and local taxes (though Susan Collins got some of it restored). Future deficits created by these cuts will almost certainly require large cuts to Medicare and Medicaid.

    http://theweek.com/articles/740768/republican-tax-bill-assault-american-values
    (And these questions can be re-phrased and asked about 90% of what you asked)
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 12,970
    igotid88 said:
    please vote next year and kick these republicans out. 
    Too late... 
  • HesCalledDyerHesCalledDyer MarylandPosts: 9,589
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Said it before a zillion times: Trickle down economics doesn't fucking work. It is essentially just a crazy lie fed to masses so that politicians who get paid off by corporations can win votes.
    Trickle down economics is what got these United States into the mess we're in today.  I hope Ronald Reagan's corpse has been eaten alive by worms, and those worms carry bacteria that infects the water that every single one of his voters drinks.  Worst economic President in modern history.  And the Republicants act like he's the second coming of Christ.  Fucker has an airport named after him.  One that I will never fly out of or into.  Fuck him, fuck trickle down, and fuck all the deregulation that got us into this mess of corporate greed and rich, old, white men.
    It's much nicer and convenient than BWI or Dulles...
    It could be the lost city of Babylon, I won’t use it as long as it has that bastards name on it. 
  • CM189191CM189191 Minneapolis via ChicagoPosts: 3,265
    Elections have consequences. 

    If you voted for tRump, didn't for because you just weren't inspired enough, or voted for anyone other than Hillary, please politely fuck right off. 

    The adults are talking now, and have to fix what you broke. 

    It's going to take at least a generation. Consider that your time out, try not to procreate. 
    WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16
  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, ColoradoPosts: 4,136
    I say let them pass these bills and let Herr dRumpf sign them and raise the average working persons taxes while lowering their average net income for the next 2-3 years.
    The people will be pissed and those assholes  on capital hill and the white house will be voted out in such a large margin they won't  know what hit them.

    Good riddance to bad rubbish 
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 12,578
    It seems like my taxes will be going down so unless I am reading this wrong this tax bill seems to be a good thing for me and my family.
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 6,101
    mcgruff10 said:
    It seems like my taxes will be going down so unless I am reading this wrong this tax bill seems to be a good thing for me and my family.
    Kids love deficit spending and a wider gap between the rich and poor.
  • NewJPageNewJPage Posts: 2,211
    I say let them pass these bills and let Herr dRumpf sign them and raise the average working persons taxes while lowering their average net income for the next 2-3 years.
    The people will be pissed and those assholes  on capital hill and the white house will be voted out in such a large margin they won't  know what hit them.

    Good riddance to bad rubbish 
    Republicans have been doing this since 1981 and it hasn't seemed to matter to a lot of the dwindling middle class
    6/26/98, 8/17/00, 10/8/00, 12/8/02, 12/9/02, 4/25/03, 5/28/03, 6/1/03, 6/3/03, 6/5/03, 6/6/03, 6/12/03, 6/13/03, 6/15/03, 6/18/03, 6/21/03, 6/22/03, 7/12/03, 7/14/03, 10/3/04, 10/5/04, 9/9/05, 9/11/05, 9/16/05, 5/16/06, 5/17/06, 5/19/06, 6/30/06, 7/23/06, 8/5/07, 6/30/08, 8/23/09, 8/24/09, 5/4/10, 5/7/10, 9/3/11, 9/4/11
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 7,814
    mcgruff10 said:
    It seems like my taxes will be going down so unless I am reading this wrong this tax bill seems to be a good thing for me and my family.
    Do you have kids in college?  I do.  This bill hits me in two places.  Deductions will be reduced for me substantially, but it will be exacerbated next year with the loss of student loss interest being deductible.  Double wammy.  
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 12,578
    mrussel1 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    It seems like my taxes will be going down so unless I am reading this wrong this tax bill seems to be a good thing for me and my family.
    Do you have kids in college?  I do.  This bill hits me in two places.  Deductions will be reduced for me substantially, but it will be exacerbated next year with the loss of student loss interest being deductible.  Double wammy.  
    Aaah I didn't see the college interest deductible being gone. that freaking sucks.  I have five kids who hopefully one day will all go to college.  
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 12,578
    Yeah just viewed Jon tester s video and it shows that are handwritten notes in the margin that will become law. I stand corrected, this bill seems like a complete fuck up. 
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 17,211
    I hope all students who will be affected let their loans lapsed don’t fucking pay them back !
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 7,814
    I hope all students who will be affected let their loans lapsed don’t fucking pay them back !
    Student loans are non "dischargeable" in bankruptcy.  And if they are federal loans, they don't even need to take formal legal action in order to garn or lien you.  It's completely administrative without a hearing.  
  • stuckinlinestuckinline Posts: 1,854
    Seriously, let's vote these idiots out:

    In an astonishing defense of dropping “death taxes” for individual estates worth more than $5.5 million, GOP Iowa Sen. Chuck Grassley implied that people not currently affected by that tax are “spending every darn penny ... on booze or women.”

    “I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing — as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies,” Grassley told the Des Moines Register in an interview published Saturday. Grassley, who serves on the Finance Committee, made the remark when asked about the Senate tax reform measure which would double the exemption for estates to $11 million for an individual and $22 million for a couple. Heirs would inherit the estates tax-free.

    Grassley’s comment triggered a wave of criticism on social media. Many complained that the working class is, in fact, spending “every darn penny” on raising their kids, caring for elderly parents, health care and putting food on the table. One Twitter user complained that the GOP was turning America into a version of “The Hunger Games.”

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/grassley-estate-taxes-booze-women_us_5a247d89e4b03c44072e5a04?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

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