Off the deep end... (U.S. pulls out of Paris Agreement)

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Comments

  • EdsonNascimentoEdsonNascimento Posts: 5,003
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Embarrassing. Trump is screwing America over with this one. Just in terms of foreign relations, this is idiotic, but it's also a huge mistake economically and socially, long term. Trump has essentially declared that America is no longer interested in moving forward with the rest of the world, let alone interested in being an international leader. This decision is incredibly isolating for the US.


    How has he screwed over the US? 

    If the US is isolated and not an international leader anymore by doing this, then shouldn't it not matter?   You guys need to focus on the issue and not the person. 

    I am focusing on the issue and not the person, and said what the issues are. I'm not sure how you figured from that post that I was focusing on the person and not the issue.... Anyway, it matters that the US is becoming isolated and is not an international leader anymore. That is the whole point. America has a HUGE impact on the world's economy and its politics, so it becoming isolated is kind of a big deal. I would think that most Americans wouldn't be interested in America becoming isolationist while it basically rejects the next major global industry in favour of oil and coal. Also, it matters because the USA is the second biggest polluter on the face of the planet, so it not being on board with this is troubling on an environmental level that effects everyone on the planet. Yeah, it matters. You seem to think that Trump and friends will actually start doing some environmentally responsible stuff whether they are a part of this agreement or not.... where'd you get that idea?? I haven't seen anything suggesting that. There is meaning behind the rejection of the agreement. More actions will follow this one. Finally, just on a political/foreign relations level, it matter for America economically. This will almost certainly reduce investment in America.

    How is this isolating the US?
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • EdsonNascimentoEdsonNascimento Posts: 5,003
    brianlux said:
    The other thing to remember in all this is that the Paris Agreement itself is not enough to stem anthropogenic global warming.  This gets into a long and elaborate scientific discussion but there's still plenty of good information to back this on NOAA, ucsusa.org, 350.org and realclimate.org, all solidly science based sites.


    I will go a step further and say the Agreement did NOTHING, Zero, Nada. Any country could do whatever it wanted at any time and not be in violation of the Agreement. An Agreement with no substance, as with most things Obama did.  High on style. Low on substance.

    The rest of what you say is the key to getting things done. And when folks like Musk, et. al figure out a way to make non-coal based energies financially efficient, we will have the first major step in our solution.  A bunch of Diplomats patting themselves on the back, but doing nothing does exactly that - nothing.

    Be worried about how much investment countries make in research of real, efficient solutions. Not how good their leaders think they look shaking hands. 

    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 37,855
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Embarrassing. Trump is screwing America over with this one. Just in terms of foreign relations, this is idiotic, but it's also a huge mistake economically and socially, long term. Trump has essentially declared that America is no longer interested in moving forward with the rest of the world, let alone interested in being an international leader. This decision is incredibly isolating for the US.


    How has he screwed over the US? 

    If the US is isolated and not an international leader anymore by doing this, then shouldn't it not matter?   You guys need to focus on the issue and not the person. 

    I am focusing on the issue and not the person, and said what the issues are. I'm not sure how you figured from that post that I was focusing on the person and not the issue.... Anyway, it matters that the US is becoming isolated and is not an international leader anymore. That is the whole point. America has a HUGE impact on the world's economy and its politics, so it becoming isolated is kind of a big deal. I would think that most Americans wouldn't be interested in America becoming isolationist while it basically rejects the next major global industry in favour of oil and coal. Also, it matters because the USA is the second biggest polluter on the face of the planet, so it not being on board with this is troubling on an environmental level that effects everyone on the planet. Yeah, it matters. You seem to think that Trump and friends will actually start doing some environmentally responsible stuff whether they are a part of this agreement or not.... where'd you get that idea?? I haven't seen anything suggesting that. There is meaning behind the rejection of the agreement. More actions will follow this one. Finally, just on a political/foreign relations level, it matter for America economically. This will almost certainly reduce investment in America.

    How is this isolating the US?
    By being the only nation in the world besides Syria and Nicaragua to join in on this global agreement that entails international cooperation, which leads to international collaboration, and clear paths to mutually beneficial investing and trade. Also, it is a massive symbol in general for Trump's unwillingness to work with the rest of the world in good faith. This on top of all his NATO stuff, bitching out Germany for its cars, and the list goes on and on. This refusal to get on board with what every other country in the world knows is a good idea is like icing on the uncooperative cake. And I think we all know that it's not a matter of Trump and friends knowing better than every other government on the face of the planet besides Syria and Nicaragua. It's not like Trump and Friends have wonderful, enlightened ideas that will outsmart everyone else who signed the agreement. I dunno, sometimes I get the impression that there is a group of people who actually think that Trump is on to something brilliant or smart or something .... but to me and, it seems, most of the planet, that seems patently ridiculous. America has literally become a dangerous laughing stock to the world because of its new government. I don't see how one can't see just that as isolating, let alone the refusal to sign the Paris agreement.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • EdsonNascimentoEdsonNascimento Posts: 5,003
    brianlux said:

    There was no requirements of this agreement. He could have accomplished the same exact thing by not doing anything with regard to the actual agreement. At least he is up front about what he is doing. But, you folks should all learn the actual facts of what's going on rather than using red herrings. You are actually playing right into what Trump is trying to do (and it is not to divert from Russia - the media is adept at handling multiple things when they have axes to grind). However, you're focused on an agreement that had no real effect.

    If anything, it has brought more attention to the topic. However, the US can still do what it wants to do (As it could within the agreement), Companies can still do what they want to do (Aside from what the US gov't regulates them to do).  And BTW, the formal exit coincides with the next election. So, he's done you a favor.  He's removed us from an agreement that has no requirements to do anything, thus bringing the issue into the light for a time now, and then if the candidates of the time see fit could be a central component of a Presidential campaign.  What's not to like about that if this is your issue?

    So, the removal from the agreement has no real impact.  The actions related to it do, but as I said - he could have done that with the agreement still in place. 

    I mean - how stupid that Elon Musk leaves his advisory board b/c of this - so, now he will have more to say in the Trump Administration?   The fact is Musk didn't need to be on that committee anyway, so this was probably just a convenient out for him. But, folks have gone completely nuts reacting to stuff that has no meaning.

    I'm sure most of you still believe your Queen when she says her loss had everything to do with everyone and everything else except her.....

    An impressive argument, Edison.  If you're correct (and your logic seems solid to me) this could turn into an unintentional plus for environmental concerns and we'd do well to take a plus in that regard just about any way we can get it.


    And, BTW, what makes you think this wasn't Trump's intention? Everyone keeps forgetting that he is a Democrat at heart - other than the political correctness.  If you start looking at things he's doing through a Machiavellian prism, you might have a different view on what he's been doing.

    You can focus on the surface.  Hey, Obama perfected and lulled us into that.  But, when you begin to think of the ACTUAL ends certain things have vs. the means by which they are being done, your view on things changes a bit.

    (And, for the record, I'm not saying it is his intention. I have no idea. I haven't spoken to him, so would have no idea unlike apparently everyone else.  But, somehow he's gotten by ok in life.  That doesn't happen by accident. - But think - when he exited the Agreement, you don't think someone told him - you know, the actual exit doesn't happen until 2020 in time for the next election cycle?)

    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • EdsonNascimentoEdsonNascimento Posts: 5,003
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Embarrassing. Trump is screwing America over with this one. Just in terms of foreign relations, this is idiotic, but it's also a huge mistake economically and socially, long term. Trump has essentially declared that America is no longer interested in moving forward with the rest of the world, let alone interested in being an international leader. This decision is incredibly isolating for the US.


    How has he screwed over the US? 

    If the US is isolated and not an international leader anymore by doing this, then shouldn't it not matter?   You guys need to focus on the issue and not the person. 

    I am focusing on the issue and not the person, and said what the issues are. I'm not sure how you figured from that post that I was focusing on the person and not the issue.... Anyway, it matters that the US is becoming isolated and is not an international leader anymore. That is the whole point. America has a HUGE impact on the world's economy and its politics, so it becoming isolated is kind of a big deal. I would think that most Americans wouldn't be interested in America becoming isolationist while it basically rejects the next major global industry in favour of oil and coal. Also, it matters because the USA is the second biggest polluter on the face of the planet, so it not being on board with this is troubling on an environmental level that effects everyone on the planet. Yeah, it matters. You seem to think that Trump and friends will actually start doing some environmentally responsible stuff whether they are a part of this agreement or not.... where'd you get that idea?? I haven't seen anything suggesting that. There is meaning behind the rejection of the agreement. More actions will follow this one. Finally, just on a political/foreign relations level, it matter for America economically. This will almost certainly reduce investment in America.

    How is this isolating the US?
    By being the only nation in the world besides Syria and Nicaragua to join in on this global agreement that entails international cooperation, which leads to international collaboration, and clear paths to mutually beneficial investing and trade. Also, it is a massive symbol in general for Trump's unwillingness to work with the rest of the world in good faith. This on top of all his NATO stuff, bitching out Germany for its cars, and the list goes on and on. This refusal to get on board with what every other country in the world knows is a good idea is like icing on the uncooperative cake. And I think we all know that it's not a matter of Trump and friends knowing better than every other government on the face of the planet besides Syria and Nicaragua. It's not like Trump and Friends have wonderful, enlightened ideas that will outsmart everyone else who signed the agreement. I dunno, sometimes I get the impression that there is a group of people who actually think that Trump is on to something brilliant or smart or something .... but to me and, it seems, most of the planet, that seems patently ridiculous. America has literally become a dangerous laughing stock to the world because of its new government. I don't see how one can't see just that as isolating, let alone the refusal to sign the Paris agreement.

    So, your theory is the US will no longer be an important part of the International community?

    If yes, my follow up question is - Is that a theory you really want to stick with?

    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 37,855
    edited June 2
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Embarrassing. Trump is screwing America over with this one. Just in terms of foreign relations, this is idiotic, but it's also a huge mistake economically and socially, long term. Trump has essentially declared that America is no longer interested in moving forward with the rest of the world, let alone interested in being an international leader. This decision is incredibly isolating for the US.


    How has he screwed over the US? 

    If the US is isolated and not an international leader anymore by doing this, then shouldn't it not matter?   You guys need to focus on the issue and not the person. 

    I am focusing on the issue and not the person, and said what the issues are. I'm not sure how you figured from that post that I was focusing on the person and not the issue.... Anyway, it matters that the US is becoming isolated and is not an international leader anymore. That is the whole point. America has a HUGE impact on the world's economy and its politics, so it becoming isolated is kind of a big deal. I would think that most Americans wouldn't be interested in America becoming isolationist while it basically rejects the next major global industry in favour of oil and coal. Also, it matters because the USA is the second biggest polluter on the face of the planet, so it not being on board with this is troubling on an environmental level that effects everyone on the planet. Yeah, it matters. You seem to think that Trump and friends will actually start doing some environmentally responsible stuff whether they are a part of this agreement or not.... where'd you get that idea?? I haven't seen anything suggesting that. There is meaning behind the rejection of the agreement. More actions will follow this one. Finally, just on a political/foreign relations level, it matter for America economically. This will almost certainly reduce investment in America.

    How is this isolating the US?
    By being the only nation in the world besides Syria and Nicaragua to join in on this global agreement that entails international cooperation, which leads to international collaboration, and clear paths to mutually beneficial investing and trade. Also, it is a massive symbol in general for Trump's unwillingness to work with the rest of the world in good faith. This on top of all his NATO stuff, bitching out Germany for its cars, and the list goes on and on. This refusal to get on board with what every other country in the world knows is a good idea is like icing on the uncooperative cake. And I think we all know that it's not a matter of Trump and friends knowing better than every other government on the face of the planet besides Syria and Nicaragua. It's not like Trump and Friends have wonderful, enlightened ideas that will outsmart everyone else who signed the agreement. I dunno, sometimes I get the impression that there is a group of people who actually think that Trump is on to something brilliant or smart or something .... but to me and, it seems, most of the planet, that seems patently ridiculous. America has literally become a dangerous laughing stock to the world because of its new government. I don't see how one can't see just that as isolating, let alone the refusal to sign the Paris agreement.

    So, your theory is the US will no longer be an important part of the International community?

    If yes, my follow up question is - Is that a theory you really want to stick with?

    No, that's not my theory at all. My theory is that the US is more and more an important negative and harmful part of the international community as Trump engages in isolationist measures, while I assume most would prefer for America to be a positive force that inspires other nations to collaborate with it and to invest in it. I'm under the impression that American culture and politics and its economy are at least partially built on the idea that the nation is "the leader of the free world". That label has actually had real implications inside and outside of America, in many ways. I think that Trump is doing a fairly good job of ensuring that that is no longer the case. Of course, that could work out for the best for other countries, in the long run. But I don't see any way it could work out well for America.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 9,843
    brianlux said:
    Kat said:
    He's doing it so you won't be talking about Russia. 
    It has far-reaching consequences for sure but it has a purpose for him and he couldn't care less what it does to the country. I firmly believe this. :(


    I agree, he couldn't care less what this does to the country or the whole world for that matter. 

    But regarding Russia, here is where I have been having some difficulty.  I haven't read anything that looks like solid proof that Russia interfered with the presidential election.  I wish I could say I have because a lot of people I very much respect believe it to be true.  In saying all this, some of you will assume I'm reading too much right wing propaganda.  Actually, no, my doubts come from reading multiple sources including some that are left leaning, i.e. Kunstler, NY Times, even Obama.  I think it is harmful to talk with dead certainty about this yet with no sure proof to back it up.

    OK, so now I've made some of you angry.  Discuss with me, even argue if you have to, but don't hate me!  I'm sorry!  :frowning:


    No anger directed at you Brian but 17 of our nation's intelligence agencies are in agreement that Russia was involved in influencing our election. Read the link, its brief and informative. They don't issue stuff like this because some Obama hold overs are out to get Trump. Congress doesn't form investigative committees because a percentage of the electorate can't accept Trump. But most importantly, you don't have recusals, resignations and the level of coincidences unless there's a there, there.

    https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf

    As for the Paris Climate Agreement, read the actual agreement. If no stick and no consequence of not complying, why the big show of withdrawing? What's the harm in "trying" to comply or to say we'll voluntarily "try" to comply? Why not lead the world? 4% of the earth's population and close to producing 30% of CO2. So much for our moral authority and so called leadership. I guess we'll just call the Saudis when we need help with something, like Russian or Chinese aggression? Or the Syrians.

    https://unfccc.int/files/essential_background/convention/application/pdf/english_paris_agreement.pdf

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  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 6,076
    brianlux said:

    There was no requirements of this agreement. He could have accomplished the same exact thing by not doing anything with regard to the actual agreement. At least he is up front about what he is doing. But, you folks should all learn the actual facts of what's going on rather than using red herrings. You are actually playing right into what Trump is trying to do (and it is not to divert from Russia - the media is adept at handling multiple things when they have axes to grind). However, you're focused on an agreement that had no real effect.

    If anything, it has brought more attention to the topic. However, the US can still do what it wants to do (As it could within the agreement), Companies can still do what they want to do (Aside from what the US gov't regulates them to do).  And BTW, the formal exit coincides with the next election. So, he's done you a favor.  He's removed us from an agreement that has no requirements to do anything, thus bringing the issue into the light for a time now, and then if the candidates of the time see fit could be a central component of a Presidential campaign.  What's not to like about that if this is your issue?

    So, the removal from the agreement has no real impact.  The actions related to it do, but as I said - he could have done that with the agreement still in place. 

    I mean - how stupid that Elon Musk leaves his advisory board b/c of this - so, now he will have more to say in the Trump Administration?   The fact is Musk didn't need to be on that committee anyway, so this was probably just a convenient out for him. But, folks have gone completely nuts reacting to stuff that has no meaning.

    I'm sure most of you still believe your Queen when she says her loss had everything to do with everyone and everything else except her.....

    An impressive argument, Edison.  If you're correct (and your logic seems solid to me) this could turn into an unintentional plus for environmental concerns and we'd do well to take a plus in that regard just about any way we can get it.


    And, BTW, what makes you think this wasn't Trump's intention? Everyone keeps forgetting that he is a Democrat at heart - other than the political correctness.  If you start looking at things he's doing through a Machiavellian prism, you might have a different view on what he's been doing.

    You can focus on the surface.  Hey, Obama perfected and lulled us into that.  But, when you begin to think of the ACTUAL ends certain things have vs. the means by which they are being done, your view on things changes a bit.

    (And, for the record, I'm not saying it is his intention. I have no idea. I haven't spoken to him, so would have no idea unlike apparently everyone else.  But, somehow he's gotten by ok in life.  That doesn't happen by accident. - But think - when he exited the Agreement, you don't think someone told him - you know, the actual exit doesn't happen until 2020 in time for the next election cycle?)

    Gotten by okay in life? You honestly think that? If not for the wealth he was was given, he would be labelled a failure by consensus definition, not to mention his repulsive personality and treatment of others. Saying he's done okay shows our infatuation with money and attributes we adhere to a person who has it. Oh, and saying the press has an ax to grind in relation to the Russia coverage is also pretty funny. 
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 21,296
    Edison:  I agree with PJ_Soul and the Guardian article I posted suggesting that this action will lead to isolating the U.S from much of the world.  And to verify that, all I need to do is ask anyone  of the people I know living in Europe of South America.  They already think we're bat-shit crazy for electing Trump.  We are one of only three countries who refuse to take even this small step in moving toward atmospheric carbon reduction.  It's a rather lame trio that way, IMHO.

    As far as the agreement doing, "NOTHING, Zero, Nada" (sound like meditation, lol) I would argue that it at least started the ball rolling.  Yes, it is a rather weak agreement but it's a starting place.  Do we really want the runner on first to step off the bag toward home plate rather than second base?

    And as far as Trumps intentions go, I'm guessing he is more focused on grabbing kitties (you catch my drift) or heading out to the links for a few rounds of golf.  And, of course, party time.  I don't take any of his political intentions seriously.  Do you? Does anyone?

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    H2M: Thanks for the links, I'll check them out.  I know you wouldn't hate on me.  :smile:



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  • EdsonNascimentoEdsonNascimento Posts: 5,003
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Embarrassing. Trump is screwing America over with this one. Just in terms of foreign relations, this is idiotic, but it's also a huge mistake economically and socially, long term. Trump has essentially declared that America is no longer interested in moving forward with the rest of the world, let alone interested in being an international leader. This decision is incredibly isolating for the US.


    How has he screwed over the US? 

    If the US is isolated and not an international leader anymore by doing this, then shouldn't it not matter?   You guys need to focus on the issue and not the person. 

    I am focusing on the issue and not the person, and said what the issues are. I'm not sure how you figured from that post that I was focusing on the person and not the issue.... Anyway, it matters that the US is becoming isolated and is not an international leader anymore. That is the whole point. America has a HUGE impact on the world's economy and its politics, so it becoming isolated is kind of a big deal. I would think that most Americans wouldn't be interested in America becoming isolationist while it basically rejects the next major global industry in favour of oil and coal. Also, it matters because the USA is the second biggest polluter on the face of the planet, so it not being on board with this is troubling on an environmental level that effects everyone on the planet. Yeah, it matters. You seem to think that Trump and friends will actually start doing some environmentally responsible stuff whether they are a part of this agreement or not.... where'd you get that idea?? I haven't seen anything suggesting that. There is meaning behind the rejection of the agreement. More actions will follow this one. Finally, just on a political/foreign relations level, it matter for America economically. This will almost certainly reduce investment in America.

    How is this isolating the US?
    By being the only nation in the world besides Syria and Nicaragua to join in on this global agreement that entails international cooperation, which leads to international collaboration, and clear paths to mutually beneficial investing and trade. Also, it is a massive symbol in general for Trump's unwillingness to work with the rest of the world in good faith. This on top of all his NATO stuff, bitching out Germany for its cars, and the list goes on and on. This refusal to get on board with what every other country in the world knows is a good idea is like icing on the uncooperative cake. And I think we all know that it's not a matter of Trump and friends knowing better than every other government on the face of the planet besides Syria and Nicaragua. It's not like Trump and Friends have wonderful, enlightened ideas that will outsmart everyone else who signed the agreement. I dunno, sometimes I get the impression that there is a group of people who actually think that Trump is on to something brilliant or smart or something .... but to me and, it seems, most of the planet, that seems patently ridiculous. America has literally become a dangerous laughing stock to the world because of its new government. I don't see how one can't see just that as isolating, let alone the refusal to sign the Paris agreement.

    So, your theory is the US will no longer be an important part of the International community?

    If yes, my follow up question is - Is that a theory you really want to stick with?

    No, that's not my theory at all. My theory is that the US is more and more an important negative and harmful part of the international community as Trump engages in isolationist measures, while I assume most would prefer for America to be a positive force that inspires other nations to collaborate with it and to invest in it. I'm under the impression that American culture and politics and its economy are at least partially built on the idea that the nation is "the leader of the free world". That label has actually had real implications inside and outside of America, in many ways. I think that Trump is doing a fairly good job of ensuring that that is no longer the case. Of course, that could work out for the best for other countries, in the long run. But I don't see any way it could work out well for America.

    But, if we are isolating ourselves, how can we have ANY part in the International Community?   I guess I don't understand what isolate means.


    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • jeffbrjeffbr SeattlePosts: 5,565
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Embarrassing. Trump is screwing America over with this one. Just in terms of foreign relations, this is idiotic, but it's also a huge mistake economically and socially, long term. Trump has essentially declared that America is no longer interested in moving forward with the rest of the world, let alone interested in being an international leader. This decision is incredibly isolating for the US.


    How has he screwed over the US? 

    If the US is isolated and not an international leader anymore by doing this, then shouldn't it not matter?   You guys need to focus on the issue and not the person. 

    I am focusing on the issue and not the person, and said what the issues are. I'm not sure how you figured from that post that I was focusing on the person and not the issue.... Anyway, it matters that the US is becoming isolated and is not an international leader anymore. That is the whole point. America has a HUGE impact on the world's economy and its politics, so it becoming isolated is kind of a big deal. I would think that most Americans wouldn't be interested in America becoming isolationist while it basically rejects the next major global industry in favour of oil and coal. Also, it matters because the USA is the second biggest polluter on the face of the planet, so it not being on board with this is troubling on an environmental level that effects everyone on the planet. Yeah, it matters. You seem to think that Trump and friends will actually start doing some environmentally responsible stuff whether they are a part of this agreement or not.... where'd you get that idea?? I haven't seen anything suggesting that. There is meaning behind the rejection of the agreement. More actions will follow this one. Finally, just on a political/foreign relations level, it matter for America economically. This will almost certainly reduce investment in America.
    Lots of good points, PJSoul. This move by Trump certainly doesn't do anything positive in terms of the U.S.'s standing in the international community. The one positive that seems to be coming out of this is that states and cities are paying more attention now. Since we don't have any national leadership on this issue, it will be up to the states to have an impact, and those states which rely heavily on trade will certainly be compelled to work on improving their own images with various trading partners. Washington Sate, Oregon and New York State have now united to rebel against this withdrawal, so we're starting to see what I think will be the beginning of states asserting more influence than they have in the past. A few states were able to give the finger to the Travel Ban and get the courts to block it. States are legalizing a federally illegal substance. States are now joining together to support these environmental regulations. Trump is going to make his office redundant at some point. He certainly isn't a leader, and blue states are moving forward without him and the detritus in D.C.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 37,855
    edited June 2
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Embarrassing. Trump is screwing America over with this one. Just in terms of foreign relations, this is idiotic, but it's also a huge mistake economically and socially, long term. Trump has essentially declared that America is no longer interested in moving forward with the rest of the world, let alone interested in being an international leader. This decision is incredibly isolating for the US.


    How has he screwed over the US? 

    If the US is isolated and not an international leader anymore by doing this, then shouldn't it not matter?   You guys need to focus on the issue and not the person. 

    I am focusing on the issue and not the person, and said what the issues are. I'm not sure how you figured from that post that I was focusing on the person and not the issue.... Anyway, it matters that the US is becoming isolated and is not an international leader anymore. That is the whole point. America has a HUGE impact on the world's economy and its politics, so it becoming isolated is kind of a big deal. I would think that most Americans wouldn't be interested in America becoming isolationist while it basically rejects the next major global industry in favour of oil and coal. Also, it matters because the USA is the second biggest polluter on the face of the planet, so it not being on board with this is troubling on an environmental level that effects everyone on the planet. Yeah, it matters. You seem to think that Trump and friends will actually start doing some environmentally responsible stuff whether they are a part of this agreement or not.... where'd you get that idea?? I haven't seen anything suggesting that. There is meaning behind the rejection of the agreement. More actions will follow this one. Finally, just on a political/foreign relations level, it matter for America economically. This will almost certainly reduce investment in America.

    How is this isolating the US?
    By being the only nation in the world besides Syria and Nicaragua to join in on this global agreement that entails international cooperation, which leads to international collaboration, and clear paths to mutually beneficial investing and trade. Also, it is a massive symbol in general for Trump's unwillingness to work with the rest of the world in good faith. This on top of all his NATO stuff, bitching out Germany for its cars, and the list goes on and on. This refusal to get on board with what every other country in the world knows is a good idea is like icing on the uncooperative cake. And I think we all know that it's not a matter of Trump and friends knowing better than every other government on the face of the planet besides Syria and Nicaragua. It's not like Trump and Friends have wonderful, enlightened ideas that will outsmart everyone else who signed the agreement. I dunno, sometimes I get the impression that there is a group of people who actually think that Trump is on to something brilliant or smart or something .... but to me and, it seems, most of the planet, that seems patently ridiculous. America has literally become a dangerous laughing stock to the world because of its new government. I don't see how one can't see just that as isolating, let alone the refusal to sign the Paris agreement.

    So, your theory is the US will no longer be an important part of the International community?

    If yes, my follow up question is - Is that a theory you really want to stick with?

    No, that's not my theory at all. My theory is that the US is more and more an important negative and harmful part of the international community as Trump engages in isolationist measures, while I assume most would prefer for America to be a positive force that inspires other nations to collaborate with it and to invest in it. I'm under the impression that American culture and politics and its economy are at least partially built on the idea that the nation is "the leader of the free world". That label has actually had real implications inside and outside of America, in many ways. I think that Trump is doing a fairly good job of ensuring that that is no longer the case. Of course, that could work out for the best for other countries, in the long run. But I don't see any way it could work out well for America.

    But, if we are isolating ourselves, how can we have ANY part in the International Community?   I guess I don't understand what isolate means.


    I think you are just taking the term too literally maybe, considering the context?
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 9,843

    This is what real leadership reads like:

    To the members of the MIT community, Yesterday, the White House took the position that the Paris climate agreement — a landmark effort to combat global warming by reducing greenhouse gas emissions — was a bad deal for America. Other nations have made clear that the deal is not open to renegotiation. And unfortunately, there is no negotiating with the scientific facts. I believe all of us have a responsibility to stand up for concerted global action to combat and adapt to climate change. At MIT, we take great care to get the science right. The scientific consensus is overwhelming: As human activity emits more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, the global average surface temperature will continue to rise, driving rising sea levels and extreme weather. Global warming is not a distant problem — not distant in time or space. Communities across the United States and around the world are already experiencing the impacts. Without immediate and concerted action, the damaging consequences will grow worse. As the Pentagon describes it, climate change is a “threat multiplier,” because its direct effects intensify other challenges, including mass migrations and zero-sum conflicts over existential resources like water and food. In short, global warming and its consequences present risks too grave to gamble with. A global problem demands a global solution. With the Paris agreement, for the first time in history, 190+ nations agreed to work together to do something about it. In signing it, the U.S. was acting in concert with other nations, with the U.S. setting its own level of carbon reductions. The truth is that unless every nation joins in the solution, every nation will join in the suffering. To solve this global problem, we must transform the global energy status quo. The Paris agreement is an important beginning: a mechanism that drives progress on emissions right away and speeds up progress over time. (Incidentally, MIT announced its own greenhouse gas reduction goal in October 2015, a month before the Paris conference, with our Plan for Action on Climate Change, which commits us to reducing our campus emissions at least 32 percent by 2030.) With this running start, humanity has time to prevent the worst impacts of climate change. But the longer we hesitate, the lower the odds of success; the carbon dioxide our cars and power plants emit today will linger in the atmosphere for a thousand years. Climate change arguably represents the greatest threat of this generation. Fortunately, it also represents a tremendous opportunity. Already, hundreds of thousands of Americans work in the clean energy sector, and growth in clean energy jobs is rising fast: In 2016 alone, solar industry employment grew by 25 percent, while wind jobs grew 32 percent. As a nation, if we choose to invest in the relevant research, we have the opportunity to continue to lead, developing new energy technologies that will generate high-value exports and high-quality American jobs — the jobs of the future. That is in no way to minimize the disruption that the changing energy economy will cause to some workers and regions. But the solution to that problem is not to deny scientific facts and give away economic opportunity. If we don’t seize this chance, other nations certainly will. By withdrawing from the Paris accord, the U.S. is surrendering leadership in a priceless global market. I am encouraged, however, to see so much leadership at the state and city level, in industry and at universities — here in Massachusetts and nationwide. Time and again, this country has risen to civilizational challenges with a sense of optimism, creativity and drive. I hope that the people of the United States will — as a matter of service to the nation and the world — continue to take the lead in pursuing a carbon-free future. In this work, the people of MIT have a special role to play. I look forward to working with you as we step up to the challenge. Sincerely, L. Rafael Reif

    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

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  • dignindignin Posts: 5,343
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Embarrassing. Trump is screwing America over with this one. Just in terms of foreign relations, this is idiotic, but it's also a huge mistake economically and socially, long term. Trump has essentially declared that America is no longer interested in moving forward with the rest of the world, let alone interested in being an international leader. This decision is incredibly isolating for the US.
    Exactly.  It's not just an environmental issue, it affects so much more than that in the long run.  In fact, economic experts are even saying this is actually worse for the economy of the US than it is the global climate.
    It's almost like he's just doing it out of spite.
    I think he did.

    If he needed a nudge, though, one came from France over the weekend. Macron was quoted in a French journal talking about his white-knuckled handshake with Trump at their first meeting in Brussels, where the newly elected French president gripped Trump’s hand tightly and would not let go for six long seconds in a show of alpha-male fortitude.

    “My handshake was not innocent,” Macron said. He likened Trump to a pair of authoritarian strongmen — Russian President Vladimir Putin and Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan — and said that he was purposefully forceful because he believed his encounter with Trump was “a moment of truth.”

    Hearing smack-talk from the Frenchman 31 years his junior irritated and bewildered Trump, aides said.

    A few days later, Trump got his revenge. He proclaimed from the Rose Garden, “I was elected to represent the citizens of Pittsburgh, not Paris.”

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/inside-trumps-climate-decision-after-fiery-debate-he-stayed-where-hes-always-been/2017/06/01/e4acb27e-46db-11e7-bcde-624ad94170ab_story.html
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 12,552
    Too bad trump didn't win Pittsburgh lol.  
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 21,296

    This is what real leadership reads like:

    To the members of the MIT community,

    Yesterday, the White House took the position that the Paris climate agreement — a landmark effort to combat global warming by reducing greenhouse gas emissions — was a bad deal for America. Other nations have made clear that the deal is not open to renegotiation. And unfortunately, there is no negotiating with the scientific facts.

    I believe all of us have a responsibility to stand up for concerted global action to combat and adapt to climate change.

    At MIT, we take great care to get the science right. The scientific consensus is overwhelming: As human activity emits more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, the global average surface temperature will continue to rise, driving rising sea levels and extreme weather.

    Global warming is not a distant problem — not distant in time or space. Communities across the United States and around the world are already experiencing the impacts. Without immediate and concerted action, the damaging consequences will grow worse. As the Pentagon describes it, climate change is a “threat multiplier,” because its direct effects intensify other challenges, including mass migrations and zero-sum conflicts over existential resources like water and food. In short, global warming and its consequences present risks too grave to gamble with.

    A global problem demands a global solution. With the Paris agreement, for the first time in history, 190+ nations agreed to work together to do something about it. In signing it, the U.S. was acting in concert with other nations, with the U.S. setting its own level of carbon reductions. The truth is that unless every nation joins in the solution, every nation will join in the suffering.

    To solve this global problem, we must transform the global energy status quo. The Paris agreement is an important beginning: a mechanism that drives progress on emissions right away and speeds up progress over time. (Incidentally, MIT announced its own greenhouse gas reduction goal in October 2015, a month before the Paris conference, with our Plan for Action on Climate Change, which commits us to reducing our campus emissions at least 32 percent by 2030.) With this running start, humanity has time to prevent the worst impacts of climate change. But the longer we hesitate, the lower the odds of success; the carbon dioxide our cars and power plants emit today will linger in the atmosphere for a thousand years.

    Climate change arguably represents the greatest threat of this generation. Fortunately, it also represents a tremendous opportunity. Already, hundreds of thousands of Americans work in the clean energy sector, and growth in clean energy jobs is rising fast: In 2016 alone, solar industry employment grew by 25 percent, while wind jobs grew 32 percent. As a nation, if we choose to invest in the relevant research, we have the opportunity to continue to lead, developing new energy technologies that will generate high-value exports and high-quality American jobs — the jobs of the future. That is in no way to minimize the disruption that the changing energy economy will cause to some workers and regions. But the solution to that problem is not to deny scientific facts and give away economic opportunity. If we don’t seize this chance, other nations certainly will. By withdrawing from the Paris accord, the U.S. is surrendering leadership in a priceless global market.

    I am encouraged, however, to see so much leadership at the state and city level, in industry and at universities — here in Massachusetts and nationwide.

    Time and again, this country has risen to civilizational challenges with a sense of optimism, creativity and drive. I hope that the people of the United States will — as a matter of service to the nation and the world — continue to take the lead in pursuing a carbon-free future.

    In this work, the people of MIT have a special role to play. I look forward to working with you as we step up to the challenge.

    Sincerely,
    L. Rafael Reif

    Good stuf, H2M! 

    This stuck out to me:  "The Paris agreement is an important beginning: a mechanism that drives progress on emissions right away and speeds up progress over time."   The agreement may not be perfect, it may not hit the mark many of us would like to see, but it's the best thing the global community has come up with yet and, like Reif said, it's an important beginning.  Many of us are hoping to keep it going and move forward from there.  In fact, I would guess most of us want that.
    We're living on the edge of something big. It's a fantastic time in history to be alive.
    AMT, 1.25.15, 00:36 hrs.
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.
  • dignindignin Posts: 5,343
    mcgruff10 said:
    Too bad trump didn't win Pittsburgh lol.  
    Oh but he did....if it wasn't for all those illegal voters. ;)
  • justamjustam Posts: 21,242
    edited June 3
    It is just one more action that demonstrates that he's a stupid man.
     I don't even mean that as only an insult. I think his mind is damaged because he can't even make simple, reasonable decisions!
    He can't even seem to grasp the idea that this planet we live on is the only home humans have!!!
    &&&&&&&&&&&&&&
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 21,296
    justam said:
    It is just one more action that demonstrates that he's a stupid man.
     I don't even mean that as only an insult. I think his mind is damaged because he can't even make simple, reasonable decisions!
    He can't even seem to grasp the idea that this planet we live on is the only home humans have!!!
    Sure looks that way, justam.  Sadly, too many others in power (and those who support them) fail to grasp such a simple concept. 

    We're all a little part of the problem (the manufacturing of my making my computer added excess carbon in the atmosphere) but at least most of us care enough to say, "OK, so how do we reduce our impact", not turn a blind eye or pretend there is no problem.

    I hope some good comes out of all this.  More awareness, more self reflection of my own part in it all and maybe, with some luck, better leaders willing to face facts.  2020, come on, baby.
    We're living on the edge of something big. It's a fantastic time in history to be alive.
    AMT, 1.25.15, 00:36 hrs.
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 12,120
    I get the feeling Trump is a direct product of the people he surrounds himself with. no decision is made that goes against what his inner circle tells him. all the while he believes he is the smartest guy in the room. 

    good leadership takes advice. great leadership makes their own call based on that advice. 
  • dignindignin Posts: 5,343

    California and China sign climate deal after Trump pulls U.S. out of Paris accord

    'Nobody can stay on the sidelines,' says California governor Jerry Brown

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/california-china-sign-climate-deal-1.4147759
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 21,296
    dignin said:

    California and China sign climate deal after Trump pulls U.S. out of Paris accord

    'Nobody can stay on the sidelines,' says California governor Jerry Brown

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/california-china-sign-climate-deal-1.4147759
    I have to admit to being a bit skeptical because I have yet to see Governor Brown back off from his pro-fracking stance.  I'll have to watch this further to see where it goes.  Sounds hopeful, but we'll see.
    We're living on the edge of something big. It's a fantastic time in history to be alive.
    AMT, 1.25.15, 00:36 hrs.
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 21,296
    As this article linked below shows, there is still a window of time to lower carbon and keep temps down to a safe level but we need to act fast.

    http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2017/06/why-global-emissions-must-peak-by-2020/#more-20427

    We're living on the edge of something big. It's a fantastic time in history to be alive.
    AMT, 1.25.15, 00:36 hrs.
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.
  • Cliffy6745Cliffy6745 Posts: 24,483
    edited June 7
    brianlux said:

    There was no requirements of this agreement. He could have accomplished the same exact thing by not doing anything with regard to the actual agreement. At least he is up front about what he is doing. But, you folks should all learn the actual facts of what's going on rather than using red herrings. You are actually playing right into what Trump is trying to do (and it is not to divert from Russia - the media is adept at handling multiple things when they have axes to grind). However, you're focused on an agreement that had no real effect.

    If anything, it has brought more attention to the topic. However, the US can still do what it wants to do (As it could within the agreement), Companies can still do what they want to do (Aside from what the US gov't regulates them to do).  And BTW, the formal exit coincides with the next election. So, he's done you a favor.  He's removed us from an agreement that has no requirements to do anything, thus bringing the issue into the light for a time now, and then if the candidates of the time see fit could be a central component of a Presidential campaign.  What's not to like about that if this is your issue?

    So, the removal from the agreement has no real impact.  The actions related to it do, but as I said - he could have done that with the agreement still in place. 

    I mean - how stupid that Elon Musk leaves his advisory board b/c of this - so, now he will have more to say in the Trump Administration?   The fact is Musk didn't need to be on that committee anyway, so this was probably just a convenient out for him. But, folks have gone completely nuts reacting to stuff that has no meaning.

    I'm sure most of you still believe your Queen when she says her loss had everything to do with everyone and everything else except her.....

    An impressive argument, Edison.  If you're correct (and your logic seems solid to me) this could turn into an unintentional plus for environmental concerns and we'd do well to take a plus in that regard just about any way we can get it.


    And, BTW, what makes you think this wasn't Trump's intention? Everyone keeps forgetting that he is a Democrat at heart - other than the political correctness.  If you start looking at things he's doing through a Machiavellian prism, you might have a different view on what he's been doing.

    You can focus on the surface.  Hey, Obama perfected and lulled us into that.  But, when you begin to think of the ACTUAL ends certain things have vs. the means by which they are being done, your view on things changes a bit.

    (And, for the record, I'm not saying it is his intention. I have no idea. I haven't spoken to him, so would have no idea unlike apparently everyone else.  But, somehow he's gotten by ok in life.  That doesn't happen by accident. - But think - when he exited the Agreement, you don't think someone told him - you know, the actual exit doesn't happen until 2020 in time for the next election cycle?)

     If you start looking at things he's doing through a Machiavellian prism, you might have a different view on what he's been doing.

    You honestly can't be serious, right?  Personal yes, perhaps, but there is nothing behind this aside from impulse.

    You are a smart dude, but you are clearly swept up in the same cult of personality/party you criticized Obama supporters of, if you can type what you wrote with a straight face
    Post edited by Cliffy6745 on
  • unsungunsung Posts: 7,909
    dignin said:

    California and China sign climate deal after Trump pulls U.S. out of Paris accord

    'Nobody can stay on the sidelines,' says California governor Jerry Brown

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/california-china-sign-climate-deal-1.4147759
    Unconstitutional. 
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 6,076
    unsung said:
    dignin said:

    California and China sign climate deal after Trump pulls U.S. out of Paris accord

    'Nobody can stay on the sidelines,' says California governor Jerry Brown

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/california-china-sign-climate-deal-1.4147759
    Unconstitutional. 
    Remind us of what you've said the function of the federal government is?
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 21,296
    unsung said:
    dignin said:

    California and China sign climate deal after Trump pulls U.S. out of Paris accord

    'Nobody can stay on the sidelines,' says California governor Jerry Brown

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/california-china-sign-climate-deal-1.4147759
    Unconstitutional. 
    Remind us of what you've said the function of the federal government is?
    :lol:

    Sorry unsung, had to laugh. 
    We're living on the edge of something big. It's a fantastic time in history to be alive.
    AMT, 1.25.15, 00:36 hrs.
    ***********
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  • unsungunsung Posts: 7,909
    The federal government creates treaties, not States.  

    This wasn't a signed treaty.  California cannot sign a treaty with a foreign nation.
  • CM189191CM189191 Minneapolis via ChicagoPosts: 3,206
    unsung said:
    The federal government creates treaties, not States.  

    This wasn't a signed treaty.  California cannot sign a treaty with a foreign nation.
    The agreement, though nonbinding, aims to expand cooperation between China and California on renewable energy, zero-emission vehicles and low-carbon urban development, Brown’s office said. It will establish a joint working group of Chinese and Californian officials to come up with ways to work together, and to invest in programs that would cut carbon emissions.

    Nothing appears to be unconstitutional about this.  Or do you just throw that word 'unconstitutional' around for things you don't like?

    Once again, progressive states taking the lead and leaving the taker states behind.  Maybe Kansas can turn itself around...
    WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 9,843
    unsung said:
    dignin said:

    California and China sign climate deal after Trump pulls U.S. out of Paris accord

    'Nobody can stay on the sidelines,' says California governor Jerry Brown

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/california-china-sign-climate-deal-1.4147759
    Unconstitutional. 

    So much for states' rights.
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