The Concept of God

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  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 11,598
    PJ_Soul said:
    and there you have it. 
    And there you have what? Seriously, what in the fuck am I allowed to say so that you and Foxy don't chastise me for MY beliefs?? You defend those with religious beliefs, but then I express my own you are all snide about it. It's bullshit, and completely biased and hypocritical. I can't even believe I am now actually having to defend myself for being against CREATIONISTS of all things. Gimme a break. I'm not going to feel guilty about not humouring religious fanatics.
    because anyone who holds a different opinion than yours is "absurd" and "illogical". I have no issue with disagreement. I sometimes have issue with how it's presented.  

    the debate has nothing to do with the creationist agenda. you brought that in, no one else. I never even mentioned creationists. someone else did. all we were talking about was different people's ability to appreciate the physical world. 

    I think people of all beliefs have the same ability to appreciate their world.

    you (and some others) don't.

    end of story. 
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 37,148
    edited August 10
    PJ_Soul said:
    and there you have it. 
    And there you have what? Seriously, what in the fuck am I allowed to say so that you and Foxy don't chastise me for MY beliefs?? You defend those with religious beliefs, but then I express my own you are all snide about it. It's bullshit, and completely biased and hypocritical. I can't even believe I am now actually having to defend myself for being against CREATIONISTS of all things. Gimme a break. I'm not going to feel guilty about not humouring religious fanatics.
    because anyone who holds a different opinion than yours is "absurd" and "illogical". I have no issue with disagreement. I sometimes have issue with how it's presented.  

    the debate has nothing to do with the creationist agenda. you brought that in, no one else. I never even mentioned creationists. someone else did. all we were talking about was different people's ability to appreciate the physical world. 

    I think people of all beliefs have the same ability to appreciate their world.

    you (and some others) don't.

    end of story. 
    I actually did NOT bring up the creationist conversation. Someone else did, as you said. Yes, I think your opinion is illogical because it just isn't possible. So what??? A LOT of things said on these boards are believed to be illogical by others, including yourself, and in many cases it's just plain true - so what?? I'm not allowed to point it out anymore? You're just being a hypocrite man.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • AnnafalkAnnafalk SwedenPosts: 3,266
    edited August 10
    rgambs said:
    Annafalk said:
    PJ_Soul said:

    I disagree. I think one can have a different belief on how something works yet still have an equal appreciation for it. 
    I don't understand how one can figure that a person who literally refuses to accept the essence, nature, complexity, reality and truth of something can possibly be said to have an equal appreciation of it compared to someone who does accept those things. That seems like an illogical statement to me.
    who is refusing the essence, nature and complexity of something?

    we don't know who/what created everything. we just try to explain how it works. how is it that someone who thinks they CAN explain who/what created everything must have a lesser appreciation of it?


    Yeah, I don't understand either. It's like a really good dessert or beer can't be fully appreciated if one doesn't know how they are made??
    I think that's obvious and people just don't want to accept their ignorance with humility.
    If you tell me you replaced the tie rod on your truck I can't appreciate your mechanical skills because I don't know shit about mechanics.  I don't know if you rebuilt the whole car or just snapped a piece into place.
    If I've never swung a golf club, can I truly appreciate a 300 yard hole in one?
    Anyway we "humans" didn't build the world.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 11,598
    edited August 10
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    and there you have it. 
    And there you have what? Seriously, what in the fuck am I allowed to say so that you and Foxy don't chastise me for MY beliefs?? You defend those with religious beliefs, but then I express my own you are all snide about it. It's bullshit, and completely biased and hypocritical. I can't even believe I am now actually having to defend myself for being against CREATIONISTS of all things. Gimme a break. I'm not going to feel guilty about not humouring religious fanatics.
    because anyone who holds a different opinion than yours is "absurd" and "illogical". I have no issue with disagreement. I sometimes have issue with how it's presented.  

    the debate has nothing to do with the creationist agenda. you brought that in, no one else. I never even mentioned creationists. someone else did. all we were talking about was different people's ability to appreciate the physical world. 

    I think people of all beliefs have the same ability to appreciate their world.

    you (and some others) don't.

    end of story. 
    I actually did NOT bring up the creationist conversation. Someone else did, as you said. Yes, I think your opinion is illogical. So what??? A LOT of things said on these boards are believe to be illogical by others, including yourself - so what? We're not allowed to point it out anymore? You're just being a hypocrite man.
    I didn't say you brought in the creationist conversation. but you did start with the ramblings of the evils of creationism, which had nothing to do with the topic. IN MY OPINION. 

    not sure how this makes me a hypocrite.

    have a lovely day. 
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 37,148
    edited August 10
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    and there you have it. 
    And there you have what? Seriously, what in the fuck am I allowed to say so that you and Foxy don't chastise me for MY beliefs?? You defend those with religious beliefs, but then I express my own you are all snide about it. It's bullshit, and completely biased and hypocritical. I can't even believe I am now actually having to defend myself for being against CREATIONISTS of all things. Gimme a break. I'm not going to feel guilty about not humouring religious fanatics.
    because anyone who holds a different opinion than yours is "absurd" and "illogical". I have no issue with disagreement. I sometimes have issue with how it's presented.  

    the debate has nothing to do with the creationist agenda. you brought that in, no one else. I never even mentioned creationists. someone else did. all we were talking about was different people's ability to appreciate the physical world. 

    I think people of all beliefs have the same ability to appreciate their world.

    you (and some others) don't.

    end of story. 
    I actually did NOT bring up the creationist conversation. Someone else did, as you said. Yes, I think your opinion is illogical. So what??? A LOT of things said on these boards are believe to be illogical by others, including yourself - so what? We're not allowed to point it out anymore? You're just being a hypocrite man.
    read. I didn't say you brought in the creationist comment. but you did start with the ramblings of the evils of creationism, which had nothing to do with the topic. IN MY OPINION. 

    not sure how this makes me a hypocrite.

    have a lovely day. 
    Uh huh. So now one or two sentences that I mentioned because it was in context is "ramblings". Right. Get a grip dude.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 11,598
    I'm well gripped. but thanks. 
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 6,186
    rgambs said:
    I disagree. I think one can have a different belief on how something works yet still have an equal appreciation for it. 
    I disagree.
    Are you telling me that any old Joe can have an equal appreciation for a masterpiece symphony to a composer or performer?
    Can someone who doesn't know how to make Kraft Mac and cheese have an equal appreciation for the finest gourmet meal?
    You have to truly know something to truly appreciate it.
    so because I'm a musician means I'm a bigger fan of Pearl Jam than a non-musician? I don't agree with that at all. 
    Being a "fan" is not the same thing as having a deep appreciation for something. 

    Part of the definition of "appreciate" deals with having an understanding. 
    I knew semantics were going to come into play here. let me rephrase:

    so because I'm a musician means I have a deeper appreciation of Pearl Jam than a non-musician?
    In what world is "semantics" a bad thing? 

    https://www.google.ca/search?client=safari&channel=iphone_bm&site=&source=hp&ei=16CMWZXeLMiH0wLFkLXIBA&q=semantics&oq=aemantics&gs_l=mobile-gws-hp.1.0.0i10i70k1j0i10k1l4.1722.7506.0.8849.26.18.6.4.4.0.242.2300.4j13j1.18.0....0...1.1.64.mobile-gws-hp..0.26.2293.3..0j5j41j0i131k1j0i13k1.Zr8RZgLxImo

    If I choose a particular word it's often because it has a particular meaning that conveys what I want to say. 
     
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 11,598
    edited August 10
    I mean I knew someone would nitpick the word "fan" and I should have said "appreciation" instead for consistency. 

    edit: and semantics can be a bad thing because it causes someone to focus on literal meanings instead of the intent of the content. 
    Post edited by HughFreakingDillon on
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 6,186
    I mean I knew someone would nitpick the word "fan" and I should have said "appreciation" instead for consistency. 

    edit: and semantics can be a bad thing because it causes someone to focus on literal meanings instead of the intent of the content. 
    No. Now you're shifting goal posts. This whole discussion started with a point specifically pertaining to how one "appreciates " things and what that really means, as opposed to just enjoying them. It's not beside the point, it is the point. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 11,598
    I mean I knew someone would nitpick the word "fan" and I should have said "appreciation" instead for consistency. 

    edit: and semantics can be a bad thing because it causes someone to focus on literal meanings instead of the intent of the content. 
    No. Now you're shifting goal posts. This whole discussion started with a point specifically pertaining to how one "appreciates " things and what that really means, as opposed to just enjoying them. It's not beside the point, it is the point. 
    did you or did you not know what I meant?

    THAT is the point. 
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 6,186
    I mean I knew someone would nitpick the word "fan" and I should have said "appreciation" instead for consistency. 

    edit: and semantics can be a bad thing because it causes someone to focus on literal meanings instead of the intent of the content. 
    No. Now you're shifting goal posts. This whole discussion started with a point specifically pertaining to how one "appreciates " things and what that really means, as opposed to just enjoying them. It's not beside the point, it is the point. 
    did you or did you not know what I meant?

    THAT is the point. 
    My point is that we seem to be talking about two different things. I'm trying to be precise in how I'm expressing my opinion. 

    And to answer your earlier question, you probably do appreciate Pearl Jam's music more than a non-musician. 
     
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 11,598
    I mean I knew someone would nitpick the word "fan" and I should have said "appreciation" instead for consistency. 

    edit: and semantics can be a bad thing because it causes someone to focus on literal meanings instead of the intent of the content. 
    No. Now you're shifting goal posts. This whole discussion started with a point specifically pertaining to how one "appreciates " things and what that really means, as opposed to just enjoying them. It's not beside the point, it is the point. 
    did you or did you not know what I meant?

    THAT is the point. 
    My point is that we seem to be talking about two different things. I'm trying to be precise in how I'm expressing my opinion. 

    And to answer your earlier question, you probably do appreciate Pearl Jam's music more than a non-musician. 
     
    so am I, but sometimes I fuck up. 
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 9,254
    I watched a documentary once about ham and terrorism and the comedy of war.
    In it, John Candy led me to believe that Canadians don't argue like this.

    Honor John Candy's memory and Rhea Pearlman's continued greatness.
    Please.
    I beg of you.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 37,148
    edited August 10
    FWIW, I do think that a musician is likely to have a deeper appreciation for a band's music than a non-musician. Musicians would necessarily have a deeper, wider understanding of what is going into making that music what it is. There is, however, a difference between appreciation in this context, and loving something. A musician probably can have a deeper appreciation for the music but not love or enjoy the music as much at the same time.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • I agree that people w/ different beliefs have the same ability to appreciate their world.  As for the musician context I played a recorder once in grade school and still to this day can't appreciate it's music.  I certainly can't stand country music either no matter how well the guy plays the geetar.
    Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not. Both ideas are overwhelming. AE
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 11,598
    now I'm second guessing my position. 
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • HesCalledDyerHesCalledDyer MarylandPosts: 9,234
    I agree that people w/ different beliefs have the same ability to appreciate their world.  As for the musician context I played a recorder once in grade school and still to this day can't appreciate it's music.  I certainly can't stand country music either no matter how well the guy plays the geetar.
    :rofl: @ "geetar!" 
  • AnnafalkAnnafalk SwedenPosts: 3,266
    I agree that people w/ different beliefs have the same ability to appreciate their world.  As for the musician context I played a recorder once in grade school and still to this day can't appreciate it's music.  I certainly can't stand country music either no matter how well the guy plays the geetar.
    :rofl: @ "geetar!" 
    Haven't you heard of a geetar?
    https://www.google.se/imgres?imgurl=https://image.redbull.com/rbcom/010/2017-03-02/1331847493656_2/0012/0/0/345/2282/3770/1600/1/a-pikasso-guitar.jpg&imgrefurl=https://www.redbull.com/se-en/the-strangest-instruments-made-by-musicians&docid=mcUovBfgBNmjQM&tbnid=HvUFiZIDu5oz5M:&vet=10ahUKEwj5sZCetM3VAhUPPFAKHfaJDBoQMwg6KAcwBw..i&w=1600&h=1066&bih=460&biw=320&q=instruments&ved=0ahUKEwj5sZCetM3VAhUPPFAKHfaJDBoQMwg6KAcwBw&iact=mrc&uact=8
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 6,186
    No one appreciates the recorder. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 6,186
    rgambs said:
    I watched a documentary once about ham and terrorism and the comedy of war.
    In it, John Candy led me to believe that Canadians don't argue like this.

    Honor John Candy's memory and Rhea Pearlman's continued greatness.
    Please.
    I beg of you.
    "The Secret Lives of Canadians" 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • rgambs said:
    I disagree. I think one can have a different belief on how something works yet still have an equal appreciation for it. 
    I disagree.
    Are you telling me that any old Joe can have an equal appreciation for a masterpiece symphony to a composer or performer?
    Can someone who doesn't know how to make Kraft Mac and cheese have an equal appreciation for the finest gourmet meal?
    You have to truly know something to truly appreciate it.
    so because I'm a musician means I'm a bigger fan of Pearl Jam than a non-musician? I don't agree with that at all. 
    Being a "fan" is not the same thing as having a deep appreciation for something. 

    Part of the definition of "appreciate" deals with having an understanding. 
    I knew semantics were going to come into play here. let me rephrase:

    so because I'm a musician means I have a deeper appreciation of Pearl Jam than a non-musician?
    Yes.

    Being able to understand the underlying structures of the musical compositions places you in a position to appreciate the music in a way musically illiterate people such as myself cannot do.

    I know what songs sound great, but I can't profess to know much other than that.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 20,957
    Not sure if we have done this before here, but a good read from Mr. Rollins on religion.  You can read the full text of his L.A. Weekly article in his Before the Chop books (volume three was released recent- an excellent read.)

    http://www.laweekly.com/music/henry-rollins-why-im-not-an-atheist-5403137

    By the way, after having conversed a few times in the past, Mr. Rollins has blocked my emails, probably because I criticized him for saying he wouldn't mind going into a dangerous place where his life would be at risk.  Oh, the sin of being a fan.  I still am, despite my banishment.

    We're living on the edge of something big. It's a fantastic time in history to be alive.
    AMT, 1.25.15, 00:36 hrs.
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 37,148
    Out of pure curiosity Brian, why was you saying he wouldn't mind going into a dangerous place where his life would be at risk a criticism at all, let alone one that may have caused him to block your email address?
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 20,957
    PJ_Soul said:
    Out of pure curiosity Brian, why was you saying he wouldn't mind going into a dangerous place where his life would be at risk a criticism at all, let alone one that may have caused him to block your email address?
    I can't find or exactly remember it right now (auuuhh, I hate it that my memory isn't so sharp these days, so don't quote me on any of this) but I was listening to one of Henry and Heidi's podcasts and Rollins said something about how he wouldn't mind going to some dangerous place. I think he even implied something about not minding if he put himself in mortal danger.  So I emailed him and said something about that he must have taken as a criticism.  Shit, I just don't want the man to do himself in before his time but then I guess that's really NOMDB (none of my damn business).  Sorry H.R.! 

    I've gotten some very kind responses in the past from Henry but I guess I crossed a line with whatever I said.  That's OK, I'm still a fan.  I'm reading his latest book, After the Chop III and enjoying it as much as most of his other books. 
    We're living on the edge of something big. It's a fantastic time in history to be alive.
    AMT, 1.25.15, 00:36 hrs.
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.
  • FoxyRedLaFoxyRedLa Lauren / MIPosts: 4,396
    Oh please let it rain today.
    Those that can be trusted can change their mind.
  • FoxyRedLaFoxyRedLa Lauren / MIPosts: 4,396
    PJ_Soul said:
    FoxyRedLa said:
    Are we stating facts or opinions now?? :lol:
    What are you looking for with this question? Am I supposed to say that creationism is a valid belief system now or what?
    A :lol: . That is all.
    Oh please let it rain today.
    Those that can be trusted can change their mind.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 11,598
    FoxyRedLa said:
    I don't know how any religious text can "confirm" anything, regardless if it fits into my own beliefs or not. 
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • ^^^
    That is a very, very good point.


    Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not. Both ideas are overwhelming. AE
  • FoxyRedLaFoxyRedLa Lauren / MIPosts: 4,396
    I'm not even certain the site is reputable. Just thought I'd share.

    I've been taking everyone's opinion/thoughts/views into consideration and have been thinking a lot. Been thinking about my kids. As usual.
    Oh please let it rain today.
    Those that can be trusted can change their mind.
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