Ok, fess up, which of you goes to college in Madison?

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Comments

  • unsungunsung Posts: 7,315
    edited March 13

    rgambs said:

    PJPOWER said:

    For the record... the baker that didn't want to bake a wedding cake for the gay couple... the photographer that turns down employment taking pictures at a same sex wedding... that's their choice.

    But with that choice comes consequences: as a heterosexual man... I wouldn't spend a dollar at a bigot's place of business given the choice. I think many others would be the same.

    Totally agree. You should be able to choose to do or not do business with anyone you please for whatever reason, but every action has its consequences.
    It isn't that simple though, what happens when an entire region, perhaps the south, decides it won't do business with a certain group, perhaps black people.
    So now American citizens can't buy food or fuel or housing in their own home, because, freedom.
    It's happened before, and if libertarian types had their way, it would happen again.
    I see it as they are cutting their own throats.

    In British Columbia, if an openly bigoted shop owner denied his services or products to a gay couple or minority... they would be shamed and placed out of business- not by law, but by social standards.

    There is some legitimacy to your point though. It is becoming obvious that many regions still exist in the dark ages and as such... some groups need protection from such ignorance.
    Then all you are doing is making personal choice of association mandatory and not voluntary.

    Someday I wouldn't put it past people to judge others on their quota of friends from different backgrounds. Well, wait they already do.

    But I do agree with the first part.
  • unsungunsung Posts: 7,315
    rgambs said:

    mace1229 said:

    I think a small business absolutely should have the right to determine who they do business with. I have a friend who owns a salon, and they keep track of info on their customers. If they no-show twice, they stop taking reservations for them, which virtually means they cant get their hair done there anymore. Seems totally reasonable. But where would you draw the line? Should a Jewish owned bakery be forced to make an Easter cake and write "Jesus is Lord" on it? They should have the right to say no to that too.
    I agree that no one should be turned down for race, but how to you enforce that and give the freedom to make decisions to run the business?
    And I'd rather have a Costco cake at my wedding than a cake from some bakery I had to take to court.

    A big part of the problem is that businesses can't just quietly refuse customers and use legitimate excuses, they have to vocalize their discrimination. That's where the rationalisations break down.
    So it comes down to hurt feelings then.
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 7,802

    If a jehova witness comes to your place of business to make a purchase and peddle their word at the same time, would you refuse their entry as you would when they come to your home?

    They don't come to my home because I live in the country, and the family business is a medical practice, so no, they wouldn't be refused based on a kooky worldview.

    If I owned a hotdog stand...
    I would concern myself with selling hotdogs.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • unsungunsung Posts: 7,315

    If a jehova witness comes to your place of business to make a purchase and peddle their word at the same time, would you refuse their entry as you would when they come to your home?

    Are they making a purchase or just there to preach?
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 5,008
    mace1229 said:

    I think a small business absolutely should have the right to determine who they do business with. I have a friend who owns a salon, and they keep track of info on their customers. If they no-show twice, they stop taking reservations for them, which virtually means they cant get their hair done there anymore. Seems totally reasonable. But where would you draw the line? Should a Jewish owned bakery be forced to make an Easter cake and write "Jesus is Lord" on it? They should have the right to say no to that too.
    I agree that no one should be turned down for race, but how to you enforce that and give the freedom to make decisions to run the business?
    And I'd rather have a Costco cake at my wedding than a cake from some bakery I had to take to court.

    The line's already drawn legally. A business owner can deny services to someone who no-shows. They can't deny services to someone based on their religion. They can decide they won't write something on the cake, because that's not denying services. A tattoo artist doesn't have to do swastikas, and a landscape photographer doesn't have to do weddings.
  • unsungunsung Posts: 7,315
    Depends on the business license. A real estate agent, a doctor, and such can't. A baker? Well, I suppose it depends on the laws or the area.

    I still stand behind my statement though. Someone who refused to bake a cake is not causing harm to a customer.
  • unsung said:

    rgambs said:

    PJPOWER said:

    For the record... the baker that didn't want to bake a wedding cake for the gay couple... the photographer that turns down employment taking pictures at a same sex wedding... that's their choice.

    But with that choice comes consequences: as a heterosexual man... I wouldn't spend a dollar at a bigot's place of business given the choice. I think many others would be the same.

    Totally agree. You should be able to choose to do or not do business with anyone you please for whatever reason, but every action has its consequences.
    It isn't that simple though, what happens when an entire region, perhaps the south, decides it won't do business with a certain group, perhaps black people.
    So now American citizens can't buy food or fuel or housing in their own home, because, freedom.
    It's happened before, and if libertarian types had their way, it would happen again.
    I see it as they are cutting their own throats.

    In British Columbia, if an openly bigoted shop owner denied his services or products to a gay couple or minority... they would be shamed and placed out of business- not by law, but by social standards.

    There is some legitimacy to your point though. It is becoming obvious that many regions still exist in the dark ages and as such... some groups need protection from such ignorance.
    Then all you are doing is making personal choice of association mandatory and not voluntary.

    Someday I wouldn't put it past people to judge others on their quota of friends from different backgrounds. Well, wait they already do.

    But I do agree with the first part.
    Hang on.

    I haven't weighed in on the 'necessity' for governing as much as I have the 'need' for governing in this scenario.

    It is fair to say, though, that left unchecked... some areas would become grotesquely intolerant. I think it's reasonable to question whether or those areas would eventually evolve from external pressure... or those areas' hatred would radiate and develop as a larger sphere of intolerance.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • PJfanwillneverleave1PJfanwillneverleave1 Posts: 11,196
    edited March 13
    unsung said:

    If a jehova witness comes to your place of business to make a purchase and peddle their word at the same time, would you refuse their entry as you would when they come to your home?

    Are they making a purchase or just there to preach?
    Both, bible in hand and everything.
    Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not. Both ideas are overwhelming.
    AE
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 5,008
    unsung said:

    Depends on the business license. A real estate agent, a doctor, and such can't. A baker? Well, I suppose it depends on the laws or the area.

    I still stand behind my statement though. Someone who refused to bake a cake is not causing harm to a customer.

    Just because an outsider thinks there's no harm, doesn't mean the law shouldn't apply. That's not the best logic to apply to laws.
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 7,802
    unsung said:

    rgambs said:

    mace1229 said:

    I think a small business absolutely should have the right to determine who they do business with. I have a friend who owns a salon, and they keep track of info on their customers. If they no-show twice, they stop taking reservations for them, which virtually means they cant get their hair done there anymore. Seems totally reasonable. But where would you draw the line? Should a Jewish owned bakery be forced to make an Easter cake and write "Jesus is Lord" on it? They should have the right to say no to that too.
    I agree that no one should be turned down for race, but how to you enforce that and give the freedom to make decisions to run the business?
    And I'd rather have a Costco cake at my wedding than a cake from some bakery I had to take to court.

    A big part of the problem is that businesses can't just quietly refuse customers and use legitimate excuses, they have to vocalize their discrimination. That's where the rationalisations break down.
    So it comes down to hurt feelings then.
    Why not, that's what your side comes down to.
    Business owners whose feelings will be hurt if they have to provide services to people they disagree with.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • unsungunsung Posts: 7,315

    unsung said:

    Depends on the business license. A real estate agent, a doctor, and such can't. A baker? Well, I suppose it depends on the laws or the area.

    I still stand behind my statement though. Someone who refused to bake a cake is not causing harm to a customer.

    Just because an outsider thinks there's no harm, doesn't mean the law shouldn't apply. That's not the best logic to apply to laws.
    No victim, no crime.
  • unsungunsung Posts: 7,315
    rgambs said:

    unsung said:

    rgambs said:

    mace1229 said:

    I think a small business absolutely should have the right to determine who they do business with. I have a friend who owns a salon, and they keep track of info on their customers. If they no-show twice, they stop taking reservations for them, which virtually means they cant get their hair done there anymore. Seems totally reasonable. But where would you draw the line? Should a Jewish owned bakery be forced to make an Easter cake and write "Jesus is Lord" on it? They should have the right to say no to that too.
    I agree that no one should be turned down for race, but how to you enforce that and give the freedom to make decisions to run the business?
    And I'd rather have a Costco cake at my wedding than a cake from some bakery I had to take to court.

    A big part of the problem is that businesses can't just quietly refuse customers and use legitimate excuses, they have to vocalize their discrimination. That's where the rationalisations break down.
    So it comes down to hurt feelings then.
    Why not, that's what your side comes down to.
    Business owners whose feelings will be hurt if they have to provide services to people they disagree with.
    No it isn't. They have every right not to associate with people that they don't want to.

    And don't tell me discrimination is always bad either.
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 5,008
    unsung said:

    unsung said:

    Depends on the business license. A real estate agent, a doctor, and such can't. A baker? Well, I suppose it depends on the laws or the area.

    I still stand behind my statement though. Someone who refused to bake a cake is not causing harm to a customer.

    Just because an outsider thinks there's no harm, doesn't mean the law shouldn't apply. That's not the best logic to apply to laws.
    No victim, no crime.
    The law says if someone discriminates against you due to you belonging to a protected group, then you're a victim. In the case of the bigoted baker, they had the choice to proceed or not. It would be easier to just say you don't like the law rather then apply bad logic.
  • unsungunsung Posts: 7,315
    Hurt feelings don't constitute a crime.

    Personally I don't demand food, I don't want it to be spit in.
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 7,802
    unsung said:

    rgambs said:

    unsung said:

    rgambs said:

    mace1229 said:

    I think a small business absolutely should have the right to determine who they do business with. I have a friend who owns a salon, and they keep track of info on their customers. If they no-show twice, they stop taking reservations for them, which virtually means they cant get their hair done there anymore. Seems totally reasonable. But where would you draw the line? Should a Jewish owned bakery be forced to make an Easter cake and write "Jesus is Lord" on it? They should have the right to say no to that too.
    I agree that no one should be turned down for race, but how to you enforce that and give the freedom to make decisions to run the business?
    And I'd rather have a Costco cake at my wedding than a cake from some bakery I had to take to court.

    A big part of the problem is that businesses can't just quietly refuse customers and use legitimate excuses, they have to vocalize their discrimination. That's where the rationalisations break down.
    So it comes down to hurt feelings then.
    Why not, that's what your side comes down to.
    Business owners whose feelings will be hurt if they have to provide services to people they disagree with.
    No it isn't. They have every right not to associate with people that they don't want to.

    And don't tell me discrimination is always bad either.
    Why, so they can avoid hurt feelings?
    No victim, no crime.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 5,008
    unsung said:

    rgambs said:

    unsung said:

    rgambs said:

    mace1229 said:

    I think a small business absolutely should have the right to determine who they do business with. I have a friend who owns a salon, and they keep track of info on their customers. If they no-show twice, they stop taking reservations for them, which virtually means they cant get their hair done there anymore. Seems totally reasonable. But where would you draw the line? Should a Jewish owned bakery be forced to make an Easter cake and write "Jesus is Lord" on it? They should have the right to say no to that too.
    I agree that no one should be turned down for race, but how to you enforce that and give the freedom to make decisions to run the business?
    And I'd rather have a Costco cake at my wedding than a cake from some bakery I had to take to court.

    A big part of the problem is that businesses can't just quietly refuse customers and use legitimate excuses, they have to vocalize their discrimination. That's where the rationalisations break down.
    So it comes down to hurt feelings then.
    Why not, that's what your side comes down to.
    Business owners whose feelings will be hurt if they have to provide services to people they disagree with.
    No it isn't. They have every right not to associate with people that they don't want to.

    And don't tell me discrimination is always bad either.
    When is discriminating against someone solely due to their belonging to a group a good thing?
  • unsungunsung Posts: 7,315
    rgambs said:

    unsung said:

    rgambs said:

    unsung said:

    rgambs said:

    mace1229 said:

    I think a small business absolutely should have the right to determine who they do business with. I have a friend who owns a salon, and they keep track of info on their customers. If they no-show twice, they stop taking reservations for them, which virtually means they cant get their hair done there anymore. Seems totally reasonable. But where would you draw the line? Should a Jewish owned bakery be forced to make an Easter cake and write "Jesus is Lord" on it? They should have the right to say no to that too.
    I agree that no one should be turned down for race, but how to you enforce that and give the freedom to make decisions to run the business?
    And I'd rather have a Costco cake at my wedding than a cake from some bakery I had to take to court.

    A big part of the problem is that businesses can't just quietly refuse customers and use legitimate excuses, they have to vocalize their discrimination. That's where the rationalisations break down.
    So it comes down to hurt feelings then.
    Why not, that's what your side comes down to.
    Business owners whose feelings will be hurt if they have to provide services to people they disagree with.
    No it isn't. They have every right not to associate with people that they don't want to.

    And don't tell me discrimination is always bad either.
    Why, so they can avoid hurt feelings?
    No victim, no crime.
    They said that they didn't want the business and to go elsewhere. Doesn't sound like hurt feelings to me, it sounds like it is pretty clear.
  • unsungunsung Posts: 7,315

    unsung said:

    rgambs said:

    unsung said:

    rgambs said:

    mace1229 said:

    I think a small business absolutely should have the right to determine who they do business with. I have a friend who owns a salon, and they keep track of info on their customers. If they no-show twice, they stop taking reservations for them, which virtually means they cant get their hair done there anymore. Seems totally reasonable. But where would you draw the line? Should a Jewish owned bakery be forced to make an Easter cake and write "Jesus is Lord" on it? They should have the right to say no to that too.
    I agree that no one should be turned down for race, but how to you enforce that and give the freedom to make decisions to run the business?
    And I'd rather have a Costco cake at my wedding than a cake from some bakery I had to take to court.

    A big part of the problem is that businesses can't just quietly refuse customers and use legitimate excuses, they have to vocalize their discrimination. That's where the rationalisations break down.
    So it comes down to hurt feelings then.
    Why not, that's what your side comes down to.
    Business owners whose feelings will be hurt if they have to provide services to people they disagree with.
    No it isn't. They have every right not to associate with people that they don't want to.

    And don't tell me discrimination is always bad either.
    When is discriminating against someone solely due to their belonging to a group a good thing?
    See that is the thing, I never said it was good. But, I do support their right to do so. I also support the free market is going to determine their fate.
  • unsungunsung Posts: 7,315
    edited March 13
    It is like when people say that you can't yell "Fire" in a movie theatre or say "Bomb" on an airplane.

    Yes, you can. But you will have consequences for doing so.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 34,828
    I find it "interesting" that reacting as the victim of discrimination and bigotry is now boiled down to "hurt feelings", which is an extremely loaded term in the context of legislation/politics.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 5,008
    unsung said:

    unsung said:

    rgambs said:

    unsung said:

    rgambs said:

    mace1229 said:

    I think a small business absolutely should have the right to determine who they do business with. I have a friend who owns a salon, and they keep track of info on their customers. If they no-show twice, they stop taking reservations for them, which virtually means they cant get their hair done there anymore. Seems totally reasonable. But where would you draw the line? Should a Jewish owned bakery be forced to make an Easter cake and write "Jesus is Lord" on it? They should have the right to say no to that too.
    I agree that no one should be turned down for race, but how to you enforce that and give the freedom to make decisions to run the business?
    And I'd rather have a Costco cake at my wedding than a cake from some bakery I had to take to court.

    A big part of the problem is that businesses can't just quietly refuse customers and use legitimate excuses, they have to vocalize their discrimination. That's where the rationalisations break down.
    So it comes down to hurt feelings then.
    Why not, that's what your side comes down to.
    Business owners whose feelings will be hurt if they have to provide services to people they disagree with.
    No it isn't. They have every right not to associate with people that they don't want to.

    And don't tell me discrimination is always bad either.
    When is discriminating against someone solely due to their belonging to a group a good thing?
    See that is the thing, I never said it was good. But, I do support their right to do so. I also support the free market is going to determine their fate.
    So when is it 'not always bad'?
  • unsungunsung Posts: 7,315
    edited March 14

    unsung said:

    unsung said:

    rgambs said:

    unsung said:

    rgambs said:

    mace1229 said:

    I think a small business absolutely should have the right to determine who they do business with. I have a friend who owns a salon, and they keep track of info on their customers. If they no-show twice, they stop taking reservations for them, which virtually means they cant get their hair done there anymore. Seems totally reasonable. But where would you draw the line? Should a Jewish owned bakery be forced to make an Easter cake and write "Jesus is Lord" on it? They should have the right to say no to that too.
    I agree that no one should be turned down for race, but how to you enforce that and give the freedom to make decisions to run the business?
    And I'd rather have a Costco cake at my wedding than a cake from some bakery I had to take to court.

    A big part of the problem is that businesses can't just quietly refuse customers and use legitimate excuses, they have to vocalize their discrimination. That's where the rationalisations break down.
    So it comes down to hurt feelings then.
    Why not, that's what your side comes down to.
    Business owners whose feelings will be hurt if they have to provide services to people they disagree with.
    No it isn't. They have every right not to associate with people that they don't want to.

    And don't tell me discrimination is always bad either.
    When is discriminating against someone solely due to their belonging to a group a good thing?
    See that is the thing, I never said it was good. But, I do support their right to do so. I also support the free market is going to determine their fate.
    So when is it 'not always bad'?
    A private business owner should be able to refuse service to any person at any time for any reason.

    The consequences will then be determined, and should be, but by the market not government.
  • unsung said:

    unsung said:

    unsung said:

    rgambs said:

    unsung said:

    rgambs said:

    mace1229 said:

    I think a small business absolutely should have the right to determine who they do business with. I have a friend who owns a salon, and they keep track of info on their customers. If they no-show twice, they stop taking reservations for them, which virtually means they cant get their hair done there anymore. Seems totally reasonable. But where would you draw the line? Should a Jewish owned bakery be forced to make an Easter cake and write "Jesus is Lord" on it? They should have the right to say no to that too.
    I agree that no one should be turned down for race, but how to you enforce that and give the freedom to make decisions to run the business?
    And I'd rather have a Costco cake at my wedding than a cake from some bakery I had to take to court.

    A big part of the problem is that businesses can't just quietly refuse customers and use legitimate excuses, they have to vocalize their discrimination. That's where the rationalisations break down.
    So it comes down to hurt feelings then.
    Why not, that's what your side comes down to.
    Business owners whose feelings will be hurt if they have to provide services to people they disagree with.
    No it isn't. They have every right not to associate with people that they don't want to.

    And don't tell me discrimination is always bad either.
    When is discriminating against someone solely due to their belonging to a group a good thing?
    See that is the thing, I never said it was good. But, I do support their right to do so. I also support the free market is going to determine their fate.
    So when is it 'not always bad'?
    A private business owner should be able to refuse service to any person at any time for any reason.

    The consequences will then be determined, and should be, but by the market not government.
    But when you're fighting a harmful attitude that is large enough to sustain itself... this attitude or practice doesn't advance the cause.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
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