my mom quit work when my brother was born. she went back to work when we were old enough to come home from school without supervision.
that said, the dad-goes-to-work and mom-stays-at-home is an antiquated notion based on nothing but the oppression of women by the patriarchal state and was allowed because you simply did not need two incomes to survive back then.
individual circumstances and upbringings are irrelevant to this discussion. that's not objective.
there are no natural "roles" based on gender. that is society-induced. in my world, men and women are equal and whatever works for their family is what works for their family.
let's reverse that billboard and state what it's really saying:
Real Women submit to her husband's every whim Real Men take advantage of that
how the hell is that not offensive?
You don't think women are more naturally caring an nurturing that men? I'm not saying every one fits that mold, but by and large that's true in my experience. My daughters took to being a mother with baby dolls and animals right from the start. My son never practiced being a dad. He couldn't give a shit about anything but violence. Maybe there's some nurture there, but we never encouraged or discouraged certain behaviors. Don't we see certain roles play out in mammals across the animal spectrum?
My wife was thrilled to stay home with our kids for several years and then she wanted to go back to work. Now she'd like to quit working again, frankly. But at the end of the day, women's liberation is the right, freedom and opportunity to work OR stay home without being judged. It's just as wrong to judge a woman who wants to be a homemaker as it is one who doesn't.
my mom quit work when my brother was born. she went back to work when we were old enough to come home from school without supervision.
that said, the dad-goes-to-work and mom-stays-at-home is an antiquated notion based on nothing but the oppression of women by the patriarchal state and was allowed because you simply did not need two incomes to survive back then.
individual circumstances and upbringings are irrelevant to this discussion. that's not objective.
there are no natural "roles" based on gender. that is society-induced. in my world, men and women are equal and whatever works for their family is what works for their family.
let's reverse that billboard and state what it's really saying:
Real Women submit to her husband's every whim Real Men take advantage of that
how the hell is that not offensive?
You don't think women are more naturally caring an nurturing that men? I'm not saying every one fits that mold, but by and large that's true in my experience. My daughters took to being a mother with baby dolls and animals right from the start. My son never practiced being a dad. He couldn't give a shit about anything but violence. Maybe there's some nurture there, but we never encouraged or discouraged certain behaviors. Don't we see certain roles play out in mammals across the animal spectrum?
My wife was thrilled to stay home with our kids for several years and then she wanted to go back to work. Now she'd like to quit working again, frankly. But at the end of the day, women's liberation is the right, freedom and opportunity to work OR stay home without being judged. It's just as wrong to judge a woman who wants to be a homemaker as it is one who doesn't.
You may think you never encouraged or discouraged those behaviours, but that's incredibly hard not to do. Inadvertently, even subconsciously, we reinforce or discourage behaviours in children by what we pay attention to, what we ignore, what we choose to discourage, what we actively punish. And setting aside the influence of parents, there is the influence of society, which we have no control over. Even how grandparents, for instance, interact with our kids. I guarantee you that if you have a baby girl you will have no shortage of people telling her how cute and pretty she is, or even (gag) what a "flirt" she is. If you have a baby boy, people will ooh and aah over how strong he is and be delighted if he even so much as picks up a toy hammer.
There are certainly some broad differences in brain development and behaviour, but not as much as most would believe.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
my mom quit work when my brother was born. she went back to work when we were old enough to come home from school without supervision.
that said, the dad-goes-to-work and mom-stays-at-home is an antiquated notion based on nothing but the oppression of women by the patriarchal state and was allowed because you simply did not need two incomes to survive back then.
individual circumstances and upbringings are irrelevant to this discussion. that's not objective.
there are no natural "roles" based on gender. that is society-induced. in my world, men and women are equal and whatever works for their family is what works for their family.
let's reverse that billboard and state what it's really saying:
Real Women submit to her husband's every whim Real Men take advantage of that
how the hell is that not offensive?
You don't think women are more naturally caring an nurturing that men? I'm not saying every one fits that mold, but by and large that's true in my experience. My daughters took to being a mother with baby dolls and animals right from the start. My son never practiced being a dad. He couldn't give a shit about anything but violence. Maybe there's some nurture there, but we never encouraged or discouraged certain behaviors. Don't we see certain roles play out in mammals across the animal spectrum?
My wife was thrilled to stay home with our kids for several years and then she wanted to go back to work. Now she'd like to quit working again, frankly. But at the end of the day, women's liberation is the right, freedom and opportunity to work OR stay home without being judged. It's just as wrong to judge a woman who wants to be a homemaker as it is one who doesn't.
You may think you never encouraged or discouraged those behaviours, but that's incredibly hard not to do. Inadvertently, even subconsciously, we reinforce or discourage behaviours in children by what we pay attention to, what we ignore, what we choose to discourage, what we actively punish. And setting aside the influence of parents, there is the influence of society, which we have no control over. Even how grandparents, for instance, interact with our kids. I guarantee you that if you have a baby girl you will have no shortage of people telling her how cute and pretty she is, or even (gag) what a "flirt" she is. If you have a baby boy, people will ooh and aah over how strong he is and be delighted if he even so much as picks up a toy hammer.
There are certainly some broad differences in brain development and behaviour, but not as much as most would believe.
What about the roles that occur in nature for different mammals? I'm sure you are right that there are subtle encouragement or discouragement that may be inadvertent and they do reinforce roles. Part of me asks "is that so bad?" or like I said above, isn't that playing out all over nature? I guess for me it's only bad when you force someone to do something that they are uncomfortable with doing or is going against their personal nature.
I'm all for post traditional families. Two men raising a kid, two women raising a child, a half human cyborg raising two children, a man who used to be a woman raising a dog, a cat raising a snake, and only robots in the kitchen.
my mom quit work when my brother was born. she went back to work when we were old enough to come home from school without supervision.
that said, the dad-goes-to-work and mom-stays-at-home is an antiquated notion based on nothing but the oppression of women by the patriarchal state and was allowed because you simply did not need two incomes to survive back then.
individual circumstances and upbringings are irrelevant to this discussion. that's not objective.
there are no natural "roles" based on gender. that is society-induced. in my world, men and women are equal and whatever works for their family is what works for their family.
let's reverse that billboard and state what it's really saying:
Real Women submit to her husband's every whim Real Men take advantage of that
how the hell is that not offensive?
You don't think women are more naturally caring an nurturing that men? I'm not saying every one fits that mold, but by and large that's true in my experience. My daughters took to being a mother with baby dolls and animals right from the start. My son never practiced being a dad. He couldn't give a shit about anything but violence. Maybe there's some nurture there, but we never encouraged or discouraged certain behaviors. Don't we see certain roles play out in mammals across the animal spectrum?
My wife was thrilled to stay home with our kids for several years and then she wanted to go back to work. Now she'd like to quit working again, frankly. But at the end of the day, women's liberation is the right, freedom and opportunity to work OR stay home without being judged. It's just as wrong to judge a woman who wants to be a homemaker as it is one who doesn't.
I think we've been bred to be that way over the centuries. I can't say one way or the other which gender "should" be more nurturing. It is probably the female, as by and large, in nature, MOST females are the nurturing ones, with some exceptions.
If you give a baby a doll or a spiderman action figure, it won't know the difference. My daughters, especially my older one after the young one was born, learned to copy what she was doing with the baby. it was adorable. But I don't know how a young girl would act towards a baby doll had she had zero prior experience or visuals of any of that stuff. But that's obviously an experiment that would be impossible and immoral to undertake.
My point is, those rules no longer apply. Humans, as a species, don't need to fall into their naturally ocurring tendencies like other animals do. They have instinctual roles. So do we, but we also have choice.
The discussion here, I believe, is not what is natural to our genders, but what societal norms of the "traditional sect" are still trying to influence us with.
my mom quit work when my brother was born. she went back to work when we were old enough to come home from school without supervision.
that said, the dad-goes-to-work and mom-stays-at-home is an antiquated notion based on nothing but the oppression of women by the patriarchal state and was allowed because you simply did not need two incomes to survive back then.
individual circumstances and upbringings are irrelevant to this discussion. that's not objective.
there are no natural "roles" based on gender. that is society-induced. in my world, men and women are equal and whatever works for their family is what works for their family.
let's reverse that billboard and state what it's really saying:
Real Women submit to her husband's every whim Real Men take advantage of that
how the hell is that not offensive?
You don't think women are more naturally caring an nurturing that men? I'm not saying every one fits that mold, but by and large that's true in my experience. My daughters took to being a mother with baby dolls and animals right from the start. My son never practiced being a dad. He couldn't give a shit about anything but violence. Maybe there's some nurture there, but we never encouraged or discouraged certain behaviors. Don't we see certain roles play out in mammals across the animal spectrum?
My wife was thrilled to stay home with our kids for several years and then she wanted to go back to work. Now she'd like to quit working again, frankly. But at the end of the day, women's liberation is the right, freedom and opportunity to work OR stay home without being judged. It's just as wrong to judge a woman who wants to be a homemaker as it is one who doesn't.
You may think you never encouraged or discouraged those behaviours, but that's incredibly hard not to do. Inadvertently, even subconsciously, we reinforce or discourage behaviours in children by what we pay attention to, what we ignore, what we choose to discourage, what we actively punish. And setting aside the influence of parents, there is the influence of society, which we have no control over. Even how grandparents, for instance, interact with our kids. I guarantee you that if you have a baby girl you will have no shortage of people telling her how cute and pretty she is, or even (gag) what a "flirt" she is. If you have a baby boy, people will ooh and aah over how strong he is and be delighted if he even so much as picks up a toy hammer.
There are certainly some broad differences in brain development and behaviour, but not as much as most would believe.
What about the roles that occur in nature for different mammals? I'm sure you are right that there are subtle encouragement or discouragement that may be inadvertent and they do reinforce roles. Part of me asks "is that so bad?" or like I said above, isn't that playing out all over nature? I guess for me it's only bad when you force someone to do something that they are uncomfortable with doing or is going against their personal nature.
Every time my four-year-old son whines, fusses, cries or sobs, I grab my nuts and growl at him.
What is "natural" for mammals in terms of nurturing young is completely confounded by the fact that female mammals provide milk to their young. It's part of the definition of mammals. Sometimes there is really no nurturing beyond that, and sometimes there is. Mammalian young are often kicked out when they are done nursing, but not always. If you argue that providing milk is more nurturing, then yes, you're correct. That doesn't speak to any other aspect of nurturing young, though.
Within birds, who of course don't provide milk, it's almost always the males doing the feeding and nurturing.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
my mom quit work when my brother was born. she went back to work when we were old enough to come home from school without supervision.
that said, the dad-goes-to-work and mom-stays-at-home is an antiquated notion based on nothing but the oppression of women by the patriarchal state and was allowed because you simply did not need two incomes to survive back then.
individual circumstances and upbringings are irrelevant to this discussion. that's not objective.
there are no natural "roles" based on gender. that is society-induced. in my world, men and women are equal and whatever works for their family is what works for their family.
let's reverse that billboard and state what it's really saying:
Real Women submit to her husband's every whim Real Men take advantage of that
how the hell is that not offensive?
You don't think women are more naturally caring an nurturing that men? I'm not saying every one fits that mold, but by and large that's true in my experience. My daughters took to being a mother with baby dolls and animals right from the start. My son never practiced being a dad. He couldn't give a shit about anything but violence. Maybe there's some nurture there, but we never encouraged or discouraged certain behaviors. Don't we see certain roles play out in mammals across the animal spectrum?
My wife was thrilled to stay home with our kids for several years and then she wanted to go back to work. Now she'd like to quit working again, frankly. But at the end of the day, women's liberation is the right, freedom and opportunity to work OR stay home without being judged. It's just as wrong to judge a woman who wants to be a homemaker as it is one who doesn't.
You may think you never encouraged or discouraged those behaviours, but that's incredibly hard not to do. Inadvertently, even subconsciously, we reinforce or discourage behaviours in children by what we pay attention to, what we ignore, what we choose to discourage, what we actively punish. And setting aside the influence of parents, there is the influence of society, which we have no control over. Even how grandparents, for instance, interact with our kids. I guarantee you that if you have a baby girl you will have no shortage of people telling her how cute and pretty she is, or even (gag) what a "flirt" she is. If you have a baby boy, people will ooh and aah over how strong he is and be delighted if he even so much as picks up a toy hammer.
There are certainly some broad differences in brain development and behaviour, but not as much as most would believe.
What about the roles that occur in nature for different mammals? I'm sure you are right that there are subtle encouragement or discouragement that may be inadvertent and they do reinforce roles. Part of me asks "is that so bad?" or like I said above, isn't that playing out all over nature? I guess for me it's only bad when you force someone to do something that they are uncomfortable with doing or is going against their personal nature.
Every time my four-year-old son whines, fusses, cries or sobs, I grab my nuts and growl at him.
You're obviously not doing it enough since it's clear he keeps doing it.
What is "natural" for mammals in terms of nurturing young is completely confounded by the fact that female mammals provide milk to their young. It's part of the definition of mammals. Sometimes there is really no nurturing beyond that, and sometimes there is. Mammalian young are often kicked out when they are done nursing, but not always. If you argue that providing milk is more nurturing, then yes, you're correct. That doesn't speak to any other aspect of nurturing young, though.
Within birds, who of course don't provide milk, it's almost always the males doing the feeding and nurturing.
Which is the same for human mothers.. the milk piece. And that's why I was very specific about mammals. I'm not arguing that there's isn't a societal influence, but perhaps the nature led to that 'nurture' piece.
My wife took some personality test at work, and she scored laughably low on all the empathy stuff.
And on the opposite side of the spectrum, when I took an assessment at an engineering firm I worked at a few years back, I showed up in the 99th percentile for empathy. General trends are still just trends, and outliers still exist!
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
My wife took some personality test at work, and she scored laughably low on all the empathy stuff.
And on the opposite side of the spectrum, when I took an assessment at an engineering firm I worked at a few years back, I showed up in the 99th percentile for empathy. General trends are still just trends, and outliers still exist!
I'm probably right there with you benjs. I tear up at facebook cute-puppy videos. LOL
I obviously was messing around above. This issue isn't an issue to me, I take the live and let live approach and don't feel the need to tell others how to live their family life. Do what works for eachother and in the end just give our kids the best home you can.
I obviously was messing around above. This issue isn't an issue to me, I take the live and let live approach and don't feel the need to tell others how to live their family life. Do what works for eachother and in the end just give our kids the best home you can.
Can I still get the robot in the kitchen?
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
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buck502000
Birthplace of GIBSON guitar Posts: 8,951
I guess women who are single and childless are just shit out of luck.
Yup Can't be housewives..... the world's greatest profession
Its a blessing to be able to have my wife stay home, take care of the kids, teach them, be with them, keep the house beautiful, etc. So vital at those young ages. Obviously it has to fit your situation but a housewife/stay at home mom is a super hard job and way more important IMO than any career that the wife (or husband) is not partaking in. Again, it depends on the situation. Being a good parent is hard work no matter how you have to pull it off. I just have a ton of respect for what she does.
I guess women who are single and childless are just shit out of luck.
Yup Can't be housewives..... the world's greatest profession
Its a blessing to be able to have my wife stay home, take care of the kids, teach them, be with them, keep the house beautiful, etc. So vital at those young ages. Obviously it has to fit your situation but a housewife/stay at home mom is a super hard job and way more important IMO than any career that the wife (or husband) is not partaking in. Again, it depends on the situation. Being a good parent is hard work no matter how you have to pull it off. I just have a ton of respect for what she does.
anyone who knows, has a tonne of respect for any stay at home mom. if my wife and I could have afforded it, she or I would have stayed home. but that isn't what the billboard is about.
As one myself, I gotta say, there are far too many parents out there crying out for credit and attention for being a parent. And those memes about what a stay at home parent should make if they were compensated, RIDICULOUS!
People who think raising children is a really hard job have never really worked. They haven't dealt with the stresses of a difficult office or medical profession, and they sure as shit never busted their muscles and bones to bits in a difficult manual labor job!
As one myself, I gotta say, there are far too many parents out there crying out for credit and attention for being a parent. And those memes about what a stay at home parent should make if they were compensated, RIDICULOUS!
People who think raising children is a really hard job have never really worked. They haven't dealt with the stresses of a difficult office or medical profession, and they sure as shit never busted their muscles and bones to bits in a difficult manual labor job!
it's a different type of stress, though. not necessarily grunt work. it can be exhausting when you feel "it's all on the line", since the ramifications of fucking up your kids can be long lasting, as opposed to fucking up in a meeting.
but you get over that hump of the first few years, and yes, there are many professions that are much more difficult and straining. and much less rewarding.
I've done both, as a Surgical Assistant and as a packager in a factory. Staying at home with Simon is the bees fuckin knees lol. Give me 6 kids and it still beats that factory floor, and while I loved surgery, life or death precision on your job actually drains you to the level that parents like to pretend they are at after a day with some kids and house chores.
I've done both, as a Surgical Assistant and as a packager in a factory. Staying at home with Simon is the bees fuckin knees lol. Give me 6 kids and it still beats that factory floor, and while I loved surgery, life or death precision on your job actually drains you to the level that parents like to pretend they are at after a day with some kids and house chores.
Ok, rant over, sorry guys lol
fair enough, but maybe Simon is easier than a lot of other kids. My kids are pretty easy too, but I've seen VERY difficult children.
What is "natural" for mammals in terms of nurturing young is completely confounded by the fact that female mammals provide milk to their young. It's part of the definition of mammals. Sometimes there is really no nurturing beyond that, and sometimes there is. Mammalian young are often kicked out when they are done nursing, but not always. If you argue that providing milk is more nurturing, then yes, you're correct. That doesn't speak to any other aspect of nurturing young, though.
Within birds, who of course don't provide milk, it's almost always the males doing the feeding and nurturing.
Which is the same for human mothers.. the milk piece. And that's why I was very specific about mammals. I'm not arguing that there's isn't a societal influence, but perhaps the nature led to that 'nurture' piece.
The argument that it is "natural" for females to nurture while males provide is completely unsupported in the animal kingdom. Female mammals provide milk but beyond that they often just go about the business of staying alive. Female mammalian predators don't stay back in the den, waiting for the males to bring in a kill; typically they are out hunting and the young stay back on their own or, when old enough, come along to practice hunting. Female mammalian prey species like ungulates don't wait for males to bring back a load of grass; they're just grazing, the young mingling about in the herd, and when predators approach, everyone just runs.
Coming back to humans, this idea that it has been normal and "natural" for mothers to only concern themselves with caring for the children and the home while the fathers work to support them is based only on a brief and completely anomalous span of human history in which there was relative prosperity combined with societal pressures to keep women occupied and out of public life. For thousands of years before that, everyone's labour was essential for survival. Children were not viewed as the precious angels they are now, but rather as potential human capital. That extra mouth to feed had better pretty quickly be attached to a body capable of work, and before they got old enough for that, childcare was often the job of elders, or people who otherwise couldn't contribute as much physical labour. On farms, where most humans have lived, women worked in all areas and the children either helped or basically looked after themselves. If the family was prosperous enough to have something like a store, you can bet the wife worked in that store, too. Those wealthy enough not to have to work themselves were wealthy enough to hire wet nurses and nannies and tutors, because it was widely recognized that children were not particularly fascinating conversationalists and no one really wanted to spend all of their days with them when you could avoid it.
The idea that women should be content with concerning themselves only with managing a home and raising children is what's unnatural.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
I've done both, as a Surgical Assistant and as a packager in a factory. Staying at home with Simon is the bees fuckin knees lol. Give me 6 kids and it still beats that factory floor, and while I loved surgery, life or death precision on your job actually drains you to the level that parents like to pretend they are at after a day with some kids and house chores.
Ok, rant over, sorry guys lol
Easy for you to say: you had spanking as a parental option and the kids fell into line.
I just don't think it's fair to say someone "has never really worked" if they think parenting is hard. I've worked hard jobs. I've worked shitty jobs. I've worked easy jobs. And when I'm home with the kids, especially in the early years, it was fun, but it was tough. not tough, but BUSY. 8 hours feels like 1 hour. not to mention my point above, that all kids are different, and all people have different things they excel at.
I just don't think it's fair to say someone "has never really worked" if they think parenting is hard. I've worked hard jobs. I've worked shitty jobs. I've worked easy jobs. And when I'm home with the kids, especially in the early years, it was fun, but it was tough. not tough, but BUSY. 8 hours feels like 1 hour. not to mention my point above, that all kids are different, and all people have different things they excel at.
Well I certainly wouldn't call it easy, I guess where my cantankerosity comes from is that it isn't a job. It's not something you do because you have to, it's something you are privileged to be doing. Enjoy it and quit yer bitchin I say!
I just don't think it's fair to say someone "has never really worked" if they think parenting is hard. I've worked hard jobs. I've worked shitty jobs. I've worked easy jobs. And when I'm home with the kids, especially in the early years, it was fun, but it was tough. not tough, but BUSY. 8 hours feels like 1 hour. not to mention my point above, that all kids are different, and all people have different things they excel at.
To be fair, in that situation, you've also got your work week under the belt as you managed the kids and the household. It all adds up.
Comments
Don't we see certain roles play out in mammals across the animal spectrum?
My wife was thrilled to stay home with our kids for several years and then she wanted to go back to work. Now she'd like to quit working again, frankly. But at the end of the day, women's liberation is the right, freedom and opportunity to work OR stay home without being judged. It's just as wrong to judge a woman who wants to be a homemaker as it is one who doesn't.
There are certainly some broad differences in brain development and behaviour, but not as much as most would believe.
I'm sure you are right that there are subtle encouragement or discouragement that may be inadvertent and they do reinforce roles. Part of me asks "is that so bad?" or like I said above, isn't that playing out all over nature? I guess for me it's only bad when you force someone to do something that they are uncomfortable with doing or is going against their personal nature.
If you give a baby a doll or a spiderman action figure, it won't know the difference. My daughters, especially my older one after the young one was born, learned to copy what she was doing with the baby. it was adorable. But I don't know how a young girl would act towards a baby doll had she had zero prior experience or visuals of any of that stuff. But that's obviously an experiment that would be impossible and immoral to undertake.
My point is, those rules no longer apply. Humans, as a species, don't need to fall into their naturally ocurring tendencies like other animals do. They have instinctual roles. So do we, but we also have choice.
The discussion here, I believe, is not what is natural to our genders, but what societal norms of the "traditional sect" are still trying to influence us with.
www.headstonesband.com
Within birds, who of course don't provide milk, it's almost always the males doing the feeding and nurturing.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
www.headstonesband.com
www.headstonesband.com
Can't be housewives..... the world's greatest profession
www.headstonesband.com
As one myself, I gotta say, there are far too many parents out there crying out for credit and attention for being a parent.
And those memes about what a stay at home parent should make if they were compensated, RIDICULOUS!
People who think raising children is a really hard job have never really worked. They haven't dealt with the stresses of a difficult office or medical profession, and they sure as shit never busted their muscles and bones to bits in a difficult manual labor job!
but you get over that hump of the first few years, and yes, there are many professions that are much more difficult and straining. and much less rewarding.
www.headstonesband.com
Ok, rant over, sorry guys lol
www.headstonesband.com
Coming back to humans, this idea that it has been normal and "natural" for mothers to only concern themselves with caring for the children and the home while the fathers work to support them is based only on a brief and completely anomalous span of human history in which there was relative prosperity combined with societal pressures to keep women occupied and out of public life. For thousands of years before that, everyone's labour was essential for survival. Children were not viewed as the precious angels they are now, but rather as potential human capital. That extra mouth to feed had better pretty quickly be attached to a body capable of work, and before they got old enough for that, childcare was often the job of elders, or people who otherwise couldn't contribute as much physical labour. On farms, where most humans have lived, women worked in all areas and the children either helped or basically looked after themselves. If the family was prosperous enough to have something like a store, you can bet the wife worked in that store, too. Those wealthy enough not to have to work themselves were wealthy enough to hire wet nurses and nannies and tutors, because it was widely recognized that children were not particularly fascinating conversationalists and no one really wanted to spend all of their days with them when you could avoid it.
The idea that women should be content with concerning themselves only with managing a home and raising children is what's unnatural.
www.headstonesband.com
Enjoy it and quit yer bitchin I say!
When I've got my pissy pants on anyways