Obamacare is a mess

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  • Illegal immigrants = approximately 3.5% of the US population, down from 4%.

    According to my aunt, who gets all of her info from Fox, they are closer to 10-20% of the population and are simultaneously stealing our jobs and living on welfare.

    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/03/5-facts-about-illegal-immigration-in-the-u-s/
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 945
    PP193448 said:

    mace1229 said:

    why cant america get health care right??? seriously its not that difficult to provide all your people with healthcare.. other nations do it.

    Other nations don't have the immigration problem we have. With that many people here illegally, getting paid illegally and avoiding taxes and many of them sending their money outside of the country to families, it becomes more difficult to provide care to everyone.
    How quickly would Trump, or anyone else, be called a racist if they required citizenship to get healthcare, that these other countries do you are talking about?
    I cant get coverage in Canada, but you know riots, literally riots and violence, would break out if we had a system that provided care to citizens and not illegals.
    That's too bad.

    I can't be sure, but if some person such as yourself was hurt in, say, a car accident here. We'd give you the best care we could offer and wouldn't worry about the costs.

    I believe we offer limited coverage to all- so, in short... life and death or health and limb.

    If you came across a car wreck and saw a Mexican family in need of first aid... would you stop and try to assist? If so, why would your level of care stop at the roadside? Wouldn't you want these people to receive medical attention?
    There are way too many visits to the ER that are not appropriate in the US. Way to much gaming of the system for immediate response. Family docs tell patients to go to the ER for anything after hours. Patients go to the ER because they don't want to wait 2 weeks to see their FP doc for the common cold, and want an antibiotic for every time they sneeze or cough. It's ridiculous. Compound that by the fact that some illegal immigrants utilize fake IDs and fake social security numbers when registering at hospitals to get treatment. No one can be denied emergency treatment in hospitals. The problem is that at least 50% of visits are probably not true emergencies. Healthcare in the US is fucked. No one has a right to free medical care in general. True emergency treatment should be covered for everyone regardless of citizen status. But there are too many lawyers and too many businessmen to not allow appropriate health care in this country.
    That is 100% accurate too.
    People who don't give a crap about their credit go to the ER instead of a normal doctor, because they have to be seen (even for a common cold) and then never pay the bill. Normal doctor office can refuse service, ER can't. They see it as a free service to just abuse the ER.
    I never personally experience long appointments for a family doc, if I call within an hour or 2 of them opening I almost always get a same-day appointment. I think the 2-week thing is exaggerated. But it is true if you call at 2 in the afternoon it is too late to fit you in for the day, or want to get seen on weekends they tell you to go to urgent care or the ER.
  • And for the record... stop blaming people in need of health care for costs associated with their need. Start blaming hospitals and insurance companies for gouging the 'consumers'. Essential services should not fleece the consumer.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 945
    edited February 17

    And for the record... stop blaming people in need of health care for costs associated with their need. Start blaming hospitals and insurance companies for gouging the 'consumers'. Essential services should not fleece the consumer.

    I agree, all my previous posts were blaming the insurance, a billion dollar industry. My comments about people in need was just stating taking someone else's system and applying it here would not work.
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 945

    Illegal immigrants = approximately 3.5% of the US population, down from 4%.

    According to my aunt, who gets all of her info from Fox, they are closer to 10-20% of the population and are simultaneously stealing our jobs and living on welfare.

    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/03/5-facts-about-illegal-immigration-in-the-u-s/

    Like I said, you can find quotes that put it at anywhere from 8 - 40 million. For every source that puts it at 10-12 million, you can find one that puts it at 30-40. But none are really accurate, as they are here illegally and there is no paperwork, documentation or anything to track them. 8 million is on the low end often based on data of how many were caught, escaped or imprisoned and 40 is on the high end. Reality is, if someone sneaks into this country, lives without committing a crime and or using fake ID, no one would know they are here.
    What none of those numbers include are the children who are citizens, which are estimated to be even higher. That matters because you have parents who are working illegally so they are not participating in a healthcare system, but the children would qualify.
    Again, I'm not trying to blame them, I'm just saying the solution isn't as easy as "other countries do it."
    We do need a new unique system for our culture.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 9,106
    mace1229 said:

    Illegal immigrants = approximately 3.5% of the US population, down from 4%.

    According to my aunt, who gets all of her info from Fox, they are closer to 10-20% of the population and are simultaneously stealing our jobs and living on welfare.

    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/03/5-facts-about-illegal-immigration-in-the-u-s/

    Like I said, you can find quotes that put it at anywhere from 8 - 40 million. For every source that puts it at 10-12 million, you can find one that puts it at 30-40. But none are really accurate, as they are here illegally and there is no paperwork, documentation or anything to track them. 8 million is on the low end often based on data of how many were caught, escaped or imprisoned and 40 is on the high end. Reality is, if someone sneaks into this country, lives without committing a crime and or using fake ID, no one would know they are here.
    What none of those numbers include are the children who are citizens, which are estimated to be even higher. That matters because you have parents who are working illegally so they are not participating in a healthcare system, but the children would qualify.
    Again, I'm not trying to blame them, I'm just saying the solution isn't as easy as "other countries do it."
    We do need a new unique system for our culture.
    so would you include coverage for illegals, or do you think it should be denied to them? I don't know what I'd answer, to be honest.
    "and on the 7th day, they played a show"
    Jamesis 10:10
  • PP193448PP193448 Springboro, OHPosts: 2,916

    And for the record... stop blaming people in need of health care for costs associated with their need. Start blaming hospitals and insurance companies for gouging the 'consumers'. Essential services should not fleece the consumer.

    There is some blame to the consumer who abuses the product. Most of blame is to hospitals and insurance companies. The only thing that should be free and isn't is water. Funny how you absolutely need water to survive, yet you pay for it and it is not free to your home. Otherwise we should have free water, free septic to remove unhealthy waste and free power to run our needed home electricity like heating/cooling, refrigerator, etc. The idea of free healthcare does not exist. Someone has to pay for it. There should be some responsibility by the consumer, especially for healthcare that is not life threatening and emergency.
    2006 Clev,Pitt; 2008 NY MSGx2; 2010 Columbus; 2012 Missoula; 2013 Phoenix,Vancouver,Seattle; 2014 Cincy; 2016 Lex, Wrigley 1&2
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 9,106
    PP193448 said:

    And for the record... stop blaming people in need of health care for costs associated with their need. Start blaming hospitals and insurance companies for gouging the 'consumers'. Essential services should not fleece the consumer.

    There is some blame to the consumer who abuses the product. Most of blame is to hospitals and insurance companies. The only thing that should be free and isn't is water. Funny how you absolutely need water to survive, yet you pay for it and it is not free to your home. Otherwise we should have free water, free septic to remove unhealthy waste and free power to run our needed home electricity like heating/cooling, refrigerator, etc. The idea of free healthcare does not exist. Someone has to pay for it. There should be some responsibility by the consumer, especially for healthcare that is not life threatening and emergency.
    water to your home (for washing and laundry, etc) shouldn't be free. if it was, people would take 30 minute showers without giving a fuck. water to drink should be. and honestly, it is, if you are willing to go looking for it. plus, it falls from the fucking sky. you can't get much freer than that. I have about 3 tonnes of it in my front yard right now.

    why should get free power and not free healthcare? power to your home is worthless if you are dead.
    "and on the 7th day, they played a show"
    Jamesis 10:10
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 945

    PP193448 said:

    And for the record... stop blaming people in need of health care for costs associated with their need. Start blaming hospitals and insurance companies for gouging the 'consumers'. Essential services should not fleece the consumer.

    There is some blame to the consumer who abuses the product. Most of blame is to hospitals and insurance companies. The only thing that should be free and isn't is water. Funny how you absolutely need water to survive, yet you pay for it and it is not free to your home. Otherwise we should have free water, free septic to remove unhealthy waste and free power to run our needed home electricity like heating/cooling, refrigerator, etc. The idea of free healthcare does not exist. Someone has to pay for it. There should be some responsibility by the consumer, especially for healthcare that is not life threatening and emergency.
    water to your home (for washing and laundry, etc) shouldn't be free. if it was, people would take 30 minute showers without giving a fuck. water to drink should be. and honestly, it is, if you are willing to go looking for it. plus, it falls from the fucking sky. you can't get much freer than that. I have about 3 tonnes of it in my front yard right now.

    why should get free power and not free healthcare? power to your home is worthless if you are dead.
    I like that analogy, completely free healthcare I can see some abuse without strict regulations.
    But you get free power?!
  • There is abuse to health care in Canada. And more people access the system than they might necessarily need to do. Many people do not take care of their personal health and unnecessarily need medical attention as well.

    It's frustrating, but what are you going to do? People's health is paramount.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 9,106
    mace1229 said:

    PP193448 said:

    And for the record... stop blaming people in need of health care for costs associated with their need. Start blaming hospitals and insurance companies for gouging the 'consumers'. Essential services should not fleece the consumer.

    There is some blame to the consumer who abuses the product. Most of blame is to hospitals and insurance companies. The only thing that should be free and isn't is water. Funny how you absolutely need water to survive, yet you pay for it and it is not free to your home. Otherwise we should have free water, free septic to remove unhealthy waste and free power to run our needed home electricity like heating/cooling, refrigerator, etc. The idea of free healthcare does not exist. Someone has to pay for it. There should be some responsibility by the consumer, especially for healthcare that is not life threatening and emergency.
    water to your home (for washing and laundry, etc) shouldn't be free. if it was, people would take 30 minute showers without giving a fuck. water to drink should be. and honestly, it is, if you are willing to go looking for it. plus, it falls from the fucking sky. you can't get much freer than that. I have about 3 tonnes of it in my front yard right now.

    why should get free power and not free healthcare? power to your home is worthless if you are dead.
    I like that analogy, completely free healthcare I can see some abuse without strict regulations.
    But you get free power?!
    no, PP said power to your home should be free. I disagree.
    "and on the 7th day, they played a show"
    Jamesis 10:10
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 4,799
    mace1229 said:

    why cant america get health care right??? seriously its not that difficult to provide all your people with healthcare.. other nations do it.

    Other nations don't have the immigration problem we have. With that many people here illegally, getting paid illegally and avoiding taxes and many of them sending their money outside of the country to families, it becomes more difficult to provide care to everyone.
    How quickly would Trump, or anyone else, be called a racist if they required citizenship to get healthcare, that these other countries do you are talking about?
    I cant get coverage in Canada, but you know riots, literally riots and violence, would break out if we had a system that provided care to citizens and not illegals.
    This is probably one of the worst arguments against a single payer system that I've seen. You know the only healthcare illegals receive is emergency room treatment. They don't get Medicais currently and no one is claiming racism for that.
  • PP193448PP193448 Springboro, OHPosts: 2,916

    PP193448 said:

    And for the record... stop blaming people in need of health care for costs associated with their need. Start blaming hospitals and insurance companies for gouging the 'consumers'. Essential services should not fleece the consumer.

    There is some blame to the consumer who abuses the product. Most of blame is to hospitals and insurance companies. The only thing that should be free and isn't is water. Funny how you absolutely need water to survive, yet you pay for it and it is not free to your home. Otherwise we should have free water, free septic to remove unhealthy waste and free power to run our needed home electricity like heating/cooling, refrigerator, etc. The idea of free healthcare does not exist. Someone has to pay for it. There should be some responsibility by the consumer, especially for healthcare that is not life threatening and emergency.
    water to your home (for washing and laundry, etc) shouldn't be free. if it was, people would take 30 minute showers without giving a fuck. water to drink should be. and honestly, it is, if you are willing to go looking for it. plus, it falls from the fucking sky. you can't get much freer than that. I have about 3 tonnes of it in my front yard right now.

    why should get free power and not free healthcare? power to your home is worthless if you are dead.
    You are missing the point. I'm giving expamples of other items that are necessary for survival and health. And I continue to say that emergent healthcare should be available to everyone. The major fucking problem is that soooooo much treatment is not life threatening and detrimental to the patient. Healthcare is abused in the US. It's a problem that will not get any better if healthcare was free.
    2006 Clev,Pitt; 2008 NY MSGx2; 2010 Columbus; 2012 Missoula; 2013 Phoenix,Vancouver,Seattle; 2014 Cincy; 2016 Lex, Wrigley 1&2
  • PP193448PP193448 Springboro, OHPosts: 2,916
    PP193448 said:

    PP193448 said:

    And for the record... stop blaming people in need of health care for costs associated with their need. Start blaming hospitals and insurance companies for gouging the 'consumers'. Essential services should not fleece the consumer.

    There is some blame to the consumer who abuses the product. Most of blame is to hospitals and insurance companies. The only thing that should be free and isn't is water. Funny how you absolutely need water to survive, yet you pay for it and it is not free to your home. Otherwise we should have free water, free septic to remove unhealthy waste and free power to run our needed home electricity like heating/cooling, refrigerator, etc. The idea of free healthcare does not exist. Someone has to pay for it. There should be some responsibility by the consumer, especially for healthcare that is not life threatening and emergency.
    water to your home (for washing and laundry, etc) shouldn't be free. if it was, people would take 30 minute showers without giving a fuck. water to drink should be. and honestly, it is, if you are willing to go looking for it. plus, it falls from the fucking sky. you can't get much freer than that. I have about 3 tonnes of it in my front yard right now.

    why should get free power and not free healthcare? power to your home is worthless if you are dead.
    You are missing the point. I'm giving expamples of other items that are necessary for survival and health. And I continue to say that emergent healthcare should be available to everyone. The major fucking problem is that soooooo much treatment is not life threatening and detrimental to the patient. Healthcare is abused in the US. It's a problem that will not get any better if healthcare was free.
    The sense of entitlement continues to get worse. People are entitled to free health care and free college tuition??? What's next free cell phone service??
    2006 Clev,Pitt; 2008 NY MSGx2; 2010 Columbus; 2012 Missoula; 2013 Phoenix,Vancouver,Seattle; 2014 Cincy; 2016 Lex, Wrigley 1&2
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 945

    mace1229 said:

    Illegal immigrants = approximately 3.5% of the US population, down from 4%.

    According to my aunt, who gets all of her info from Fox, they are closer to 10-20% of the population and are simultaneously stealing our jobs and living on welfare.

    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/03/5-facts-about-illegal-immigration-in-the-u-s/

    Like I said, you can find quotes that put it at anywhere from 8 - 40 million. For every source that puts it at 10-12 million, you can find one that puts it at 30-40. But none are really accurate, as they are here illegally and there is no paperwork, documentation or anything to track them. 8 million is on the low end often based on data of how many were caught, escaped or imprisoned and 40 is on the high end. Reality is, if someone sneaks into this country, lives without committing a crime and or using fake ID, no one would know they are here.
    What none of those numbers include are the children who are citizens, which are estimated to be even higher. That matters because you have parents who are working illegally so they are not participating in a healthcare system, but the children would qualify.
    Again, I'm not trying to blame them, I'm just saying the solution isn't as easy as "other countries do it."
    We do need a new unique system for our culture.
    so would you include coverage for illegals, or do you think it should be denied to them? I don't know what I'd answer, to be honest.
    That is tough.
    The right human thing to do is help those in need. I don't know how to do that without collapsing the system.
    Healthcare in Canada, or anywhere, is not free. You pay for it through your taxes. Anyone accepting healthcare and illegally not paying taxes is stealing. In those cases they should be helped, but there should be a consequence or a method to return payment.

    Children are the hardest to consider. No child should go without proper care because their parents did something wrong. Universal free healthcare for anyone under 18 I would be more open to, but then again parents should still be responsible for their children.

    I think back to unemployment and other forms of public assistance. You can get unemployment for 2 years now. It is ridiculous. I know several people who turned down jobs because they could live off unemployment so why work for 40 hours a week to make a little more? I know people who couldn't get a job filled for the same reason. That assistance is designed to keep you afloat when the storm comes, it doesn't mean you get a free ride. When something is free it gets abused. In order to pick up your unemployment check you should show proof of 15 hours of community service that week, still gives you 25 hours of job searching and interviews during the normal work hours. How many would suddenly find work if that was the case?

    For healthcare, treat everyone. If you're paying into a system then it isn't free, you've paid for it. If you are illegally avoiding paying into the system by any means, then you are stealing from the government and healthcare providers. Set up some documentation so they can be tracked and the cost recovered (the government has given anyone here legally a number to track us, illegals should not be exempt from that), contact any employer, garnish 10% of the wages to cover the cost of the care that was stolen. If they refuse or attempt to avoid payment send them to jail or community service if they are here legally, send them back if they aren't - they got a fair chance to make it right and didn't.
    Probably a terrible idea, just what I came up with in less than a minute. Imagine what intelligent officials can do when they work on a plan for a year.
  • PP193448PP193448 Springboro, OHPosts: 2,916

    There is abuse to health care in Canada. And more people access the system than they might necessarily need to do. Many people do not take care of their personal health and unnecessarily need medical attention as well.

    It's frustrating, but what are you going to do? People's health is paramount.

    This continues to be a huge problem in the US. But I would agree that record profits each year by insurance companies and hospitals is ridiculous. Why should a CEO of a hospital make 3 million a year??
    2006 Clev,Pitt; 2008 NY MSGx2; 2010 Columbus; 2012 Missoula; 2013 Phoenix,Vancouver,Seattle; 2014 Cincy; 2016 Lex, Wrigley 1&2
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 9,106
    PP193448 said:

    PP193448 said:

    And for the record... stop blaming people in need of health care for costs associated with their need. Start blaming hospitals and insurance companies for gouging the 'consumers'. Essential services should not fleece the consumer.

    There is some blame to the consumer who abuses the product. Most of blame is to hospitals and insurance companies. The only thing that should be free and isn't is water. Funny how you absolutely need water to survive, yet you pay for it and it is not free to your home. Otherwise we should have free water, free septic to remove unhealthy waste and free power to run our needed home electricity like heating/cooling, refrigerator, etc. The idea of free healthcare does not exist. Someone has to pay for it. There should be some responsibility by the consumer, especially for healthcare that is not life threatening and emergency.
    water to your home (for washing and laundry, etc) shouldn't be free. if it was, people would take 30 minute showers without giving a fuck. water to drink should be. and honestly, it is, if you are willing to go looking for it. plus, it falls from the fucking sky. you can't get much freer than that. I have about 3 tonnes of it in my front yard right now.

    why should get free power and not free healthcare? power to your home is worthless if you are dead.
    You are missing the point. I'm giving expamples of other items that are necessary for survival and health. And I continue to say that emergent healthcare should be available to everyone. The major fucking problem is that soooooo much treatment is not life threatening and detrimental to the patient. Healthcare is abused in the US. It's a problem that will not get any better if healthcare was free.
    that part is also a problem in Canada. too many people go to the ER when it isn't needed. But most walk in clinics aren't open on off hours or on holidays. so the ER gets jammed with people with anxiety attacks they think are heart attacks. I wouldn't necessarily call it abuse, more than I would call it misuse. people get scared they are about to die, so they go to the ER. we have a phone service in Winnipeg, I'm sure other places have it, called Healthlinks. You can call and ask what your symptoms mean, but more often than not, they'd be liable if they said "don't worry about it, just stay home and get some rest" and that person died. I've called a few times in the past (I don't bother anymore), and they always say "well, it's probably (this), but it could be (that), and (that) could be life threatening, so you should probably go to the ER just to get checked". it honestly seems like a waste of resources to me, with obvious good intentions. maybe it does calm people into not going, maybe it doesn't. I don't know if they keep stats, or if they could even track how useful it is since when you call they don't take your personal info.
    "and on the 7th day, they played a show"
    Jamesis 10:10
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 7,416
    edited February 17
    mace1229 said:

    mace1229 said:


    Your statistics are way off. While even I tried to make an argument based on dread disease, to think that's the only thing eating up the healthcare dollar is silly. 1 hospital stay is $10K. A pregnancy is $15K for the mom assuming no complications. It's easy to rack up half of the base price you're talking about without even considering maintenance situations like Diabetes, etc.

    But, forget all that. If your fuzzy math were right on the total cost of healthcare, there would be no debate. It would all be easily coverable.

    I'm not sure where those numbers came from. We did just have a baby 6 months ago, and we saw all the bills before they were paid. And there were some minor complications, mom stayed 3 nights and the baby stayed 4. Total paid to the hospital was less than 6k. Now maybe your numbers are the jacked up rates they present insurance, because on our bill it has a "regular fee" and a "negotiated fee" Yeah, the "regular fee" was listed at like 20k or something ridiculous, but when looking at what the hospital was actually paid through our copay and insurance, the "negotiated fee" was less than 6k. And people without insurance don't get billed that ridiculous first amount, that is just what they send insurance hoping the pay it, and what insurance wants you to see so you think you have these great savings through them. That was part of my point as well, going through the insurance jacks the rates way up. My sister in law was not on health insurance when she had 3 of her 4 kids, paid cash for all of them. And it was in the 4-5k range she ended up paying in cash. If you tell a doctor or hospital that you are uninsured and want the cash price, it is a fraction of what they bill insurance. At least that was the case before having insurance became law.
    There is more to having a baby than the hospital stay. That's why your fuzzy math is so far off.
    yes, and the 10-12 or so doctor visits we had in those 9 months are not going to total the other 10k you are quoting. A cash, out of pocket doctor visit will usually run $100-$200. I know, I've been there and have friends who are there right now. Not every doctor does not but a lot do. Schedule ahead, tell them you are uninsured, or will be paying out of pocket but want to be seen. They give you the cash price, which is a fraction of what they bill insurance. But if you walk in, pretend you have insurance and just forgot your card, they'll send you a bill for $800 and tell you to forward it to your insurance.
    Not to mention those uninsured paying out of pocket probably wont be going 10-12 times, we don't really need biweekly ultrasounds in the third trimester. I survived without my mom getting a single one.
    That isn't the way it works, that would be illegal.
    Providers can't charge an insurance company more than they charge a self-pay patient. That would be an illegal, fraudulent action.
    The adjusted amounts are due to contracts that are required for being a provider for an insurance, they state that they will pay a set amount for a particular procedure, whether it be a flat rate or a percentage.

    If my wife sets an exam fee of 100$ for a typical exam, she bills it at 100$ to VSP (for instance) and they pay out $60. The out of pocket payer owes $100, by law, but the contract with VSP forbids her from collecting the additional $40, so a self-pay patient is definitely "getting screwed" on that one. There is a same day pay discount of 20 percent or less that is applicable IF they pay on the spot.

    If she were to set her exam fee at $60 to avoid screwing out of pocket payers, then some providers (Davis Vision perhaps) are contracted to pay a percentage of her fee as opposed to a flat rate. So they will pay out at, say, 80 percent of $60, and she "gets screwed" on that one.

    It's a no-win situation for everybody but the insurance providers.
    Post edited by rgambs on
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 945

    mace1229 said:

    why cant america get health care right??? seriously its not that difficult to provide all your people with healthcare.. other nations do it.

    Other nations don't have the immigration problem we have. With that many people here illegally, getting paid illegally and avoiding taxes and many of them sending their money outside of the country to families, it becomes more difficult to provide care to everyone.
    How quickly would Trump, or anyone else, be called a racist if they required citizenship to get healthcare, that these other countries do you are talking about?
    I cant get coverage in Canada, but you know riots, literally riots and violence, would break out if we had a system that provided care to citizens and not illegals.
    This is probably one of the worst arguments against a single payer system that I've seen. You know the only healthcare illegals receive is emergency room treatment. They don't get Medicais currently and no one is claiming racism for that.
    You know for a fact if Trump were to announce today free healthcare for all citizens, many would protest it is racially motivated against illegal Hispanics. If you don't know that, you haven't been paying attention to the world.
    And how is the argument that covering people who don't pay into a system will bleed it a bad argument? That's like saying we should give social security benefits to everyone, even if they never paid into SS. That's not even the case and SS is still expected to collapse. If we give out more healthcare coverage than we take it in will collapse, unless we grossly overcharge those paying into it. ER visits are 100 times more expensive than a family practice doctor visit anyway, so I'm not sure where you are going with that argument if that's all they use.
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 4,799
    mace1229 said:

    mace1229 said:

    why cant america get health care right??? seriously its not that difficult to provide all your people with healthcare.. other nations do it.

    Other nations don't have the immigration problem we have. With that many people here illegally, getting paid illegally and avoiding taxes and many of them sending their money outside of the country to families, it becomes more difficult to provide care to everyone.
    How quickly would Trump, or anyone else, be called a racist if they required citizenship to get healthcare, that these other countries do you are talking about?
    I cant get coverage in Canada, but you know riots, literally riots and violence, would break out if we had a system that provided care to citizens and not illegals.
    This is probably one of the worst arguments against a single payer system that I've seen. You know the only healthcare illegals receive is emergency room treatment. They don't get Medicais currently and no one is claiming racism for that.
    You know for a fact if Trump were to announce today free healthcare for all citizens, many would protest it is racially motivated against illegal Hispanics. If you don't know that, you haven't been paying attention to the world.
    And how is the argument that covering people who don't pay into a system will bleed it a bad argument? That's like saying we should give social security benefits to everyone, even if they never paid into SS. That's not even the case and SS is still expected to collapse. If we give out more healthcare coverage than we take it in will collapse, unless we grossly overcharge those paying into it. ER visits are 100 times more expensive than a family practice doctor visit anyway, so I'm not sure where you are going with that argument if that's all they use.
    I'm going with that argument because illegals don't get Medicaid, and there's no cry of racism, which makes your hypothesis false. We could have a single payer system for citizens and green card holders only. If a few people want to fuss about that requirement, who cares?
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 945

    mace1229 said:

    mace1229 said:

    why cant america get health care right??? seriously its not that difficult to provide all your people with healthcare.. other nations do it.

    Other nations don't have the immigration problem we have. With that many people here illegally, getting paid illegally and avoiding taxes and many of them sending their money outside of the country to families, it becomes more difficult to provide care to everyone.
    How quickly would Trump, or anyone else, be called a racist if they required citizenship to get healthcare, that these other countries do you are talking about?
    I cant get coverage in Canada, but you know riots, literally riots and violence, would break out if we had a system that provided care to citizens and not illegals.
    This is probably one of the worst arguments against a single payer system that I've seen. You know the only healthcare illegals receive is emergency room treatment. They don't get Medicais currently and no one is claiming racism for that.
    You know for a fact if Trump were to announce today free healthcare for all citizens, many would protest it is racially motivated against illegal Hispanics. If you don't know that, you haven't been paying attention to the world.
    And how is the argument that covering people who don't pay into a system will bleed it a bad argument? That's like saying we should give social security benefits to everyone, even if they never paid into SS. That's not even the case and SS is still expected to collapse. If we give out more healthcare coverage than we take it in will collapse, unless we grossly overcharge those paying into it. ER visits are 100 times more expensive than a family practice doctor visit anyway, so I'm not sure where you are going with that argument if that's all they use.
    I'm going with that argument because illegals don't get Medicaid, and there's no cry of racism, which makes your hypothesis false. We could have a single payer system for citizens and green card holders only. If a few people want to fuss about that requirement, who cares?
    What about other rights, like education? Who cares about education too, I mean education is less important that health, so if some want to fuss that we no longer educate illegals, then who cares?
    I worked in a community in South-Central LA, and about 2/3 of the kids I worked with were either illegal, or had illegal parents. That city would burn, literally, if you announced that everyone was getting free healthcare except for them.
    it isn't just a "few people" that you can shrug your shoulders about and say "who cares."
  • mace1229 said:

    mace1229 said:

    mace1229 said:

    why cant america get health care right??? seriously its not that difficult to provide all your people with healthcare.. other nations do it.

    Other nations don't have the immigration problem we have. With that many people here illegally, getting paid illegally and avoiding taxes and many of them sending their money outside of the country to families, it becomes more difficult to provide care to everyone.
    How quickly would Trump, or anyone else, be called a racist if they required citizenship to get healthcare, that these other countries do you are talking about?
    I cant get coverage in Canada, but you know riots, literally riots and violence, would break out if we had a system that provided care to citizens and not illegals.
    I can't get any healthcare without presenting my manitoba health card. you have to be a citizen, as far as I know, to get it. I don't know what they'd do if I was dying, but all I know is I have to present that card every single time. even when I'm checking in for an appointment with my GP.
    Exactly. People would complain ever more about healthcare if we did it the way "other nations do it."
    That comparison doesn't work for us. We have by some estimates 10% or more of our nation here illegally that would expect to be covered, and anyone who tried to deny them coverage would be considered a racist.
    Got a link to your 10% or more of our population are here illegal? Every problem can be traced back to those illegals.

    Illegals have a net benefit to the US economy.
    google.com

    then type in "how many illegals in US."

    you will find estimates from 8 million to 40 million. No one really knows because illegals are kinda here illegally.
    40 million is laughable. And so is 10%. And so is the concept you're floating that because of THEM, the US can't have universal health care in some form.
    08/29/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont;

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  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 4,799
    mace1229 said:

    mace1229 said:

    mace1229 said:

    why cant america get health care right??? seriously its not that difficult to provide all your people with healthcare.. other nations do it.

    Other nations don't have the immigration problem we have. With that many people here illegally, getting paid illegally and avoiding taxes and many of them sending their money outside of the country to families, it becomes more difficult to provide care to everyone.
    How quickly would Trump, or anyone else, be called a racist if they required citizenship to get healthcare, that these other countries do you are talking about?
    I cant get coverage in Canada, but you know riots, literally riots and violence, would break out if we had a system that provided care to citizens and not illegals.
    This is probably one of the worst arguments against a single payer system that I've seen. You know the only healthcare illegals receive is emergency room treatment. They don't get Medicais currently and no one is claiming racism for that.
    You know for a fact if Trump were to announce today free healthcare for all citizens, many would protest it is racially motivated against illegal Hispanics. If you don't know that, you haven't been paying attention to the world.
    And how is the argument that covering people who don't pay into a system will bleed it a bad argument? That's like saying we should give social security benefits to everyone, even if they never paid into SS. That's not even the case and SS is still expected to collapse. If we give out more healthcare coverage than we take it in will collapse, unless we grossly overcharge those paying into it. ER visits are 100 times more expensive than a family practice doctor visit anyway, so I'm not sure where you are going with that argument if that's all they use.
    I'm going with that argument because illegals don't get Medicaid, and there's no cry of racism, which makes your hypothesis false. We could have a single payer system for citizens and green card holders only. If a few people want to fuss about that requirement, who cares?
    What about other rights, like education? Who cares about education too, I mean education is less important that health, so if some want to fuss that we no longer educate illegals, then who cares?
    I worked in a community in South-Central LA, and about 2/3 of the kids I worked with were either illegal, or had illegal parents. That city would burn, literally, if you announced that everyone was getting free healthcare except for them.
    it isn't just a "few people" that you can shrug your shoulders about and say "who cares."
    Your whole stance is based on what you think might happen out of protest. I'm factoring in the current reality.
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 945
    I'd argue Medicaid is irrelevant. Medicaid has requirements and is based off income. They don't get SSN benefits either, which also have specific requirements. It isn't a blanket benefit given to all Americans and denied to illegals.
    My guess is you've never been stuck on the 101 freeway while people march on Cesar Chavez day so they can protest their rights.
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 945
    edited February 17

    mace1229 said:

    mace1229 said:

    mace1229 said:

    why cant america get health care right??? seriously its not that difficult to provide all your people with healthcare.. other nations do it.

    Other nations don't have the immigration problem we have. With that many people here illegally, getting paid illegally and avoiding taxes and many of them sending their money outside of the country to families, it becomes more difficult to provide care to everyone.
    How quickly would Trump, or anyone else, be called a racist if they required citizenship to get healthcare, that these other countries do you are talking about?
    I cant get coverage in Canada, but you know riots, literally riots and violence, would break out if we had a system that provided care to citizens and not illegals.
    This is probably one of the worst arguments against a single payer system that I've seen. You know the only healthcare illegals receive is emergency room treatment. They don't get Medicais currently and no one is claiming racism for that.
    You know for a fact if Trump were to announce today free healthcare for all citizens, many would protest it is racially motivated against illegal Hispanics. If you don't know that, you haven't been paying attention to the world.
    And how is the argument that covering people who don't pay into a system will bleed it a bad argument? That's like saying we should give social security benefits to everyone, even if they never paid into SS. That's not even the case and SS is still expected to collapse. If we give out more healthcare coverage than we take it in will collapse, unless we grossly overcharge those paying into it. ER visits are 100 times more expensive than a family practice doctor visit anyway, so I'm not sure where you are going with that argument if that's all they use.
    I'm going with that argument because illegals don't get Medicaid, and there's no cry of racism, which makes your hypothesis false. We could have a single payer system for citizens and green card holders only. If a few people want to fuss about that requirement, who cares?
    What about other rights, like education? Who cares about education too, I mean education is less important that health, so if some want to fuss that we no longer educate illegals, then who cares?
    I worked in a community in South-Central LA, and about 2/3 of the kids I worked with were either illegal, or had illegal parents. That city would burn, literally, if you announced that everyone was getting free healthcare except for them.
    it isn't just a "few people" that you can shrug your shoulders about and say "who cares."
    Your whole stance is based on what you think might happen out of protest. I'm factoring in the current reality.
    No, you missed my point then. My stance was a system cannot be supported when more people take from it than put in. Unless you want to grossly overcharge those who do pay in (assuming it would be for all).
    Protests and riots would be the impact of not including them, which I don't think many people would really consider, giving all the other rights they have. So your stance is healthcare for all, as long as you are here legally? And if not, then no soup for you?
    Post edited by mace1229 on
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 945
    I just don't get that argument of not including them. So many claim how much of a vital part of our economy they are, how much costs would rise if they really were deported, how they are the backbone of the produce labor and California would collapse without them.
    So to not include them would be like saying "we need you, but we don't really need you to be healthy."
  • mace1229 said:

    mace1229 said:

    mace1229 said:

    mace1229 said:

    why cant america get health care right??? seriously its not that difficult to provide all your people with healthcare.. other nations do it.

    Other nations don't have the immigration problem we have. With that many people here illegally, getting paid illegally and avoiding taxes and many of them sending their money outside of the country to families, it becomes more difficult to provide care to everyone.
    How quickly would Trump, or anyone else, be called a racist if they required citizenship to get healthcare, that these other countries do you are talking about?
    I cant get coverage in Canada, but you know riots, literally riots and violence, would break out if we had a system that provided care to citizens and not illegals.
    This is probably one of the worst arguments against a single payer system that I've seen. You know the only healthcare illegals receive is emergency room treatment. They don't get Medicais currently and no one is claiming racism for that.
    You know for a fact if Trump were to announce today free healthcare for all citizens, many would protest it is racially motivated against illegal Hispanics. If you don't know that, you haven't been paying attention to the world.
    And how is the argument that covering people who don't pay into a system will bleed it a bad argument? That's like saying we should give social security benefits to everyone, even if they never paid into SS. That's not even the case and SS is still expected to collapse. If we give out more healthcare coverage than we take it in will collapse, unless we grossly overcharge those paying into it. ER visits are 100 times more expensive than a family practice doctor visit anyway, so I'm not sure where you are going with that argument if that's all they use.
    I'm going with that argument because illegals don't get Medicaid, and there's no cry of racism, which makes your hypothesis false. We could have a single payer system for citizens and green card holders only. If a few people want to fuss about that requirement, who cares?
    What about other rights, like education? Who cares about education too, I mean education is less important that health, so if some want to fuss that we no longer educate illegals, then who cares?
    I worked in a community in South-Central LA, and about 2/3 of the kids I worked with were either illegal, or had illegal parents. That city would burn, literally, if you announced that everyone was getting free healthcare except for them.
    it isn't just a "few people" that you can shrug your shoulders about and say "who cares."
    Your whole stance is based on what you think might happen out of protest. I'm factoring in the current reality.
    No, you missed my point then. My stance was a system cannot be supported when more people take from it than put in. Unless you want to grossly overcharge those who do pay in (assuming it would be for all).
    Protests and riots would be the impact of not including them, which I don't think many people would really consider, giving all the other rights they have. So your stance is healthcare for all, as long as you are here legally? And if not, then no soup for you?
    There are more illegals getting free healthcare than people with insurance or paying in? Who knew.
    08/29/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont;

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  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 945
    edited February 17

    mace1229 said:

    mace1229 said:

    mace1229 said:

    mace1229 said:

    why cant america get health care right??? seriously its not that difficult to provide all your people with healthcare.. other nations do it.

    Other nations don't have the immigration problem we have. With that many people here illegally, getting paid illegally and avoiding taxes and many of them sending their money outside of the country to families, it becomes more difficult to provide care to everyone.
    How quickly would Trump, or anyone else, be called a racist if they required citizenship to get healthcare, that these other countries do you are talking about?
    I cant get coverage in Canada, but you know riots, literally riots and violence, would break out if we had a system that provided care to citizens and not illegals.
    This is probably one of the worst arguments against a single payer system that I've seen. You know the only healthcare illegals receive is emergency room treatment. They don't get Medicais currently and no one is claiming racism for that.
    You know for a fact if Trump were to announce today free healthcare for all citizens, many would protest it is racially motivated against illegal Hispanics. If you don't know that, you haven't been paying attention to the world.
    And how is the argument that covering people who don't pay into a system will bleed it a bad argument? That's like saying we should give social security benefits to everyone, even if they never paid into SS. That's not even the case and SS is still expected to collapse. If we give out more healthcare coverage than we take it in will collapse, unless we grossly overcharge those paying into it. ER visits are 100 times more expensive than a family practice doctor visit anyway, so I'm not sure where you are going with that argument if that's all they use.
    I'm going with that argument because illegals don't get Medicaid, and there's no cry of racism, which makes your hypothesis false. We could have a single payer system for citizens and green card holders only. If a few people want to fuss about that requirement, who cares?
    What about other rights, like education? Who cares about education too, I mean education is less important that health, so if some want to fuss that we no longer educate illegals, then who cares?
    I worked in a community in South-Central LA, and about 2/3 of the kids I worked with were either illegal, or had illegal parents. That city would burn, literally, if you announced that everyone was getting free healthcare except for them.
    it isn't just a "few people" that you can shrug your shoulders about and say "who cares."
    Your whole stance is based on what you think might happen out of protest. I'm factoring in the current reality.
    No, you missed my point then. My stance was a system cannot be supported when more people take from it than put in. Unless you want to grossly overcharge those who do pay in (assuming it would be for all).
    Protests and riots would be the impact of not including them, which I don't think many people would really consider, giving all the other rights they have. So your stance is healthcare for all, as long as you are here legally? And if not, then no soup for you?
    There are more illegals getting free healthcare than people with insurance or paying in? Who knew.
    That is not even close to what was said.....
    Let me break it down for you.
    Even from the smallest of estimates, illegals make up 5% of the country.
    So if healthcare was for all, when 100 people seek healthcare, only 95 of them are here legally, and thus paid into the system.
    95 is a smaller number than 100.

    That is using the smallest of estimates out there.
    Post edited by mace1229 on
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 5,974
    edited February 17
    Double post



    Post edited by Halifax2TheMax on
    08/29/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont;

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  • mace1229 said:

    mace1229 said:

    mace1229 said:

    mace1229 said:

    why cant america get health care right??? seriously its not that difficult to provide all your people with healthcare.. other nations do it.

    Other nations don't have the immigration problem we have. With that many people here illegally, getting paid illegally and avoiding taxes and many of them sending their money outside of the country to families, it becomes more difficult to provide care to everyone.
    How quickly would Trump, or anyone else, be called a racist if they required citizenship to get healthcare, that these other countries do you are talking about?
    I cant get coverage in Canada, but you know riots, literally riots and violence, would break out if we had a system that provided care to citizens and not illegals.
    This is probably one of the worst arguments against a single payer system that I've seen. You know the only healthcare illegals receive is emergency room treatment. They don't get Medicais currently and no one is claiming racism for that.
    You know for a fact if Trump were to announce today free healthcare for all citizens, many would protest it is racially motivated against illegal Hispanics. If you don't know that, you haven't been paying attention to the world.
    And how is the argument that covering people who don't pay into a system will bleed it a bad argument? That's like saying we should give social security benefits to everyone, even if they never paid into SS. That's not even the case and SS is still expected to collapse. If we give out more healthcare coverage than we take it in will collapse, unless we grossly overcharge those paying into it. ER visits are 100 times more expensive than a family practice doctor visit anyway, so I'm not sure where you are going with that argument if that's all they use.
    I'm going with that argument because illegals don't get Medicaid, and there's no cry of racism, which makes your hypothesis false. We could have a single payer system for citizens and green card holders only. If a few people want to fuss about that requirement, who cares?
    What about other rights, like education? Who cares about education too, I mean education is less important that health, so if some want to fuss that we no longer educate illegals, then who cares?
    I worked in a community in South-Central LA, and about 2/3 of the kids I worked with were either illegal, or had illegal parents. That city would burn, literally, if you announced that everyone was getting free healthcare except for them.
    it isn't just a "few people" that you can shrug your shoulders about and say "who cares."
    Your whole stance is based on what you think might happen out of protest. I'm factoring in the current reality.
    No, you missed my point then.

    Protests and riots would be the impact of not including them, which I don't think many people would really consider, giving all the other rights they have. So your stance is healthcare for all, as long as you are here legally? And if not, then no soup for you?
    08/29/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont;

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