Obamacare is a mess

2456718

Comments

  • ^^^
    I agree with you once again often :smirk:
    EdsonNascimento up here we all agree that no matter what if you need healthcare you will receive the best no matter your situation.
    We are all human.

    I'm not sure where up here is, but if it's Canada (maybe you meant heaven?), then you are wrong. Why can people buy supplemental plans that get them better access to care? If everyone got the best, that would be unnecessary. No?
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 5,318

    It's a mess because republicans have sabotaged it. From day one. They even opposed pieces that they previously supported. All to "see this president fail." And they still don't have a solution other than, "let the market decide." Which isn't a solution.

    How,did they sabotage it? By not writing a blank check? Good for them.
    Republicans in congress, rather than work with Obama, fought it tooth and nail, the idea of universal care. Rather than be part of the process, they screamed death panels and opposed compromise they previously supported. Then republican states barred the expansion of Medicare as an alternative option. And still they have no plan. None.

    Prior to Obamacare, my premiums and copays increased by double digit %'s year after year after year. The only times they didn't is when I was a union member and collectively we spoke up and since passage, my premiums increased in single % digits and have stayed flat for the past two years. But then again, I work in a state that embraced romneycare from day one and it's what?, only been a decade? And yes, I get excellent care.

    So, what's Trump's solution? Here's a clue, he doesn't have one.
    Well, if you look at HealthyIndiana you start to get an idea. Ryan has put forth some ideas too. It's not necessarily trumps job to come up with a solution. Oh for the days when congress was the legislature.

    Is your plan on the exchanges?

    I've done union employee benefits. You guys were giving up other stuff to maintain those things, it's a choice, which is fine. You made that collectively. Wish we had that for Obamacare.

    And not disagreeing with the rhetoric you sited, but it's just that rhetoric. Cut through that. How were the republicans given a chance? Obama and Pelosi rammed a 2,000 page bill through without allowing anyone to read it. Nice revisionist history in your part.
    Because during negotiations the repubs failed to offer alternatives, support or anything that would result in a final product or victory for Obama. Even after he agreed to address their concerns. They failed. Because all they were concerned about was seeing him fail.

    Why is it that all of our allies have universal health care? Is it really that bad of a concept? It is the 21st century afterall.
    We do have universal health care. I guess it's how you define that. When other countries have our diversity, they can start comparing problems. Did you know there's a small area in Queens NY that has more ethnicities than anywhere in the world? Does Canada have as many ethnicities as Queens NY in its entire country?
    It doesn't matter what ethnicity you are, you still deserve health care. That's a ridiculous non sequitur.

    And the US has universal health care? By what measure?
    I think you missed the point. It wasn't about the ethnicities but the diversity. Sure, I could have picked a better word.

    But, feel free to interpret however you want. The point is, we have far more diversity and all that means both in terms of socioeconomic status, health issues, genetics and everything else that goes into both healthcare considerations and financing. So, I do apologize if my choice of words threw you off.

    American diversity would inhibit a single-payer system? Sorry, but this seems like a huge reach.
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 5,318
    The healthcare debate brings up interesting aspects of our American culture. As a result of our economic system, there's an significant element of struggle and desparation for a lot of people, and the threat of desparation for just about everyone. Our culture has taken this struggle and reframed it into a cultural value: work hard and you'll be rewarded, the individual is greater than the collective. Insurance became a money making business as an extension of this when it became an employer benefit. Get a good job and you can have good insurance. If you can't do that, then the individual is flawed someway. Adopting a what about the freeloader argument essentially perpetuates these negatives. The concept of insurance is in itself socialist in nature. People may draw out of the bucket more than they put in, and others will put in more than they take out. Unless you're the highest earner, we all freeload to some degree at some point in our life.

    Healthcare is something we all use and access. Eventually we'll have to use our common sense, along with a cultural shift, to decide health insurance is 'right'. We have plenty of other countries as our test kitchen.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 10,290

    what ever happened to earning what you have ? this country has been carrying freeloaders for waaayyyy to long now, watch them scatter like rats when it's time to support themselves.
    just in case....I'm not talking about disabled people, although there are many who play the system as disabled.

    as benjs stated very well, you simply cannot tell someone they shouldn't get the same access to health care because of their social or economic status.

    are there "freeloaders"? yes, and that won't change. people in Canada who don't work/refuse to work and milk the system have a right to be healthy and get the same treatment at the hospital as I do. It's just a question of attitude in Canada vs the US. it's not even brought up, "that guy shouldn't get an operation on his leg-he doesn't even work!". never heard anything like that said in my entire life. and I know a lot of people who dislike "freeloaders".

    should the 10 year old girl with cancer be denied treatment because her father is "a freeloader"? or would you consider that incredibly selfish and cruel?
    www.headstonesband.com
    www.the-watchmen.com
    www.thehip.com
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 10,290

    what ever happened to earning what you have ? this country has been carrying freeloaders for waaayyyy to long now, watch them scatter like rats when it's time to support themselves.
    just in case....I'm not talking about disabled people, although there are many who play the system as disabled.

    and "earning what you have" only makes sense/is fair if we all started at zero. we don't. inequality starts at conception.
    www.headstonesband.com
    www.the-watchmen.com
    www.thehip.com
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 10,290

    It's a mess because republicans have sabotaged it. From day one. They even opposed pieces that they previously supported. All to "see this president fail." And they still don't have a solution other than, "let the market decide." Which isn't a solution.

    How,did they sabotage it? By not writing a blank check? Good for them.
    Republicans in congress, rather than work with Obama, fought it tooth and nail, the idea of universal care. Rather than be part of the process, they screamed death panels and opposed compromise they previously supported. Then republican states barred the expansion of Medicare as an alternative option. And still they have no plan. None.

    Prior to Obamacare, my premiums and copays increased by double digit %'s year after year after year. The only times they didn't is when I was a union member and collectively we spoke up and since passage, my premiums increased in single % digits and have stayed flat for the past two years. But then again, I work in a state that embraced romneycare from day one and it's what?, only been a decade? And yes, I get excellent care.

    So, what's Trump's solution? Here's a clue, he doesn't have one.
    Well, if you look at HealthyIndiana you start to get an idea. Ryan has put forth some ideas too. It's not necessarily trumps job to come up with a solution. Oh for the days when congress was the legislature.

    Is your plan on the exchanges?

    I've done union employee benefits. You guys were giving up other stuff to maintain those things, it's a choice, which is fine. You made that collectively. Wish we had that for Obamacare.

    And not disagreeing with the rhetoric you sited, but it's just that rhetoric. Cut through that. How were the republicans given a chance? Obama and Pelosi rammed a 2,000 page bill through without allowing anyone to read it. Nice revisionist history in your part.
    Because during negotiations the repubs failed to offer alternatives, support or anything that would result in a final product or victory for Obama. Even after he agreed to address their concerns. They failed. Because all they were concerned about was seeing him fail.

    Why is it that all of our allies have universal health care? Is it really that bad of a concept? It is the 21st century afterall.
    We do have universal health care. I guess it's how you define that. When other countries have our diversity, they can start comparing problems. Did you know there's a small area in Queens NY that has more ethnicities than anywhere in the world? Does Canada have as many ethnicities as Queens NY in its entire country?
    It doesn't matter what ethnicity you are, you still deserve health care. That's a ridiculous non sequitur.

    And the US has universal health care? By what measure?
    I think you missed the point. It wasn't about the ethnicities but the diversity. Sure, I could have picked a better word.

    But, feel free to interpret however you want. The point is, we have far more diversity and all that means both in terms of socioeconomic status, health issues, genetics and everything else that goes into both healthcare considerations and financing. So, I do apologize if my choice of words threw you off.

    what does diversity have to do with access to health care?
    www.headstonesband.com
    www.the-watchmen.com
    www.thehip.com
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504

    what ever happened to earning what you have ? this country has been carrying freeloaders for waaayyyy to long now, watch them scatter like rats when it's time to support themselves.
    just in case....I'm not talking about disabled people, although there are many who play the system as disabled.

    and "earning what you have" only makes sense/is fair if we all started at zero. we don't. inequality starts at conception.
    some people work hard enough to leave something for their kid's...is that a problem ?

    it dosen't matter to me what a man dose for a living you understand..
    as long as his interest's don't conflict with mine.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 10,290

    what ever happened to earning what you have ? this country has been carrying freeloaders for waaayyyy to long now, watch them scatter like rats when it's time to support themselves.
    just in case....I'm not talking about disabled people, although there are many who play the system as disabled.

    and "earning what you have" only makes sense/is fair if we all started at zero. we don't. inequality starts at conception.
    some people work hard enough to leave something for their kid's...is that a problem ?

    ugh. obviously not. not even close.

    let's say you were born into a family of poverty, STILL A US CITIZEN, and no matter how hard you worked, how hard you sacrificed, how many jobs you had to maintain so your kids could merely eat......you think you deserve LESS healthcare than someone who was born into a middle class family who wants for nothing?
    www.headstonesband.com
    www.the-watchmen.com
    www.thehip.com
  • It's a mess because republicans have sabotaged it. From day one. They even opposed pieces that they previously supported. All to "see this president fail." And they still don't have a solution other than, "let the market decide." Which isn't a solution.

    How,did they sabotage it? By not writing a blank check? Good for them.
    Republicans in congress, rather than work with Obama, fought it tooth and nail, the idea of universal care. Rather than be part of the process, they screamed death panels and opposed compromise they previously supported. Then republican states barred the expansion of Medicare as an alternative option. And still they have no plan. None.

    Prior to Obamacare, my premiums and copays increased by double digit %'s year after year after year. The only times they didn't is when I was a union member and collectively we spoke up and since passage, my premiums increased in single % digits and have stayed flat for the past two years. But then again, I work in a state that embraced romneycare from day one and it's what?, only been a decade? And yes, I get excellent care.

    So, what's Trump's solution? Here's a clue, he doesn't have one.
    Well, if you look at HealthyIndiana you start to get an idea. Ryan has put forth some ideas too. It's not necessarily trumps job to come up with a solution. Oh for the days when congress was the legislature.

    Is your plan on the exchanges?

    I've done union employee benefits. You guys were giving up other stuff to maintain those things, it's a choice, which is fine. You made that collectively. Wish we had that for Obamacare.

    And not disagreeing with the rhetoric you sited, but it's just that rhetoric. Cut through that. How were the republicans given a chance? Obama and Pelosi rammed a 2,000 page bill through without allowing anyone to read it. Nice revisionist history in your part.
    Because during negotiations the repubs failed to offer alternatives, support or anything that would result in a final product or victory for Obama. Even after he agreed to address their concerns. They failed. Because all they were concerned about was seeing him fail.

    Why is it that all of our allies have universal health care? Is it really that bad of a concept? It is the 21st century afterall.
    We do have universal health care. I guess it's how you define that. When other countries have our diversity, they can start comparing problems. Did you know there's a small area in Queens NY that has more ethnicities than anywhere in the world? Does Canada have as many ethnicities as Queens NY in its entire country?
    It doesn't matter what ethnicity you are, you still deserve health care. That's a ridiculous non sequitur.

    And the US has universal health care? By what measure?
    I think you missed the point. It wasn't about the ethnicities but the diversity. Sure, I could have picked a better word.

    But, feel free to interpret however you want. The point is, we have far more diversity and all that means both in terms of socioeconomic status, health issues, genetics and everything else that goes into both healthcare considerations and financing. So, I do apologize if my choice of words threw you off.

    American diversity would inhibit a single-payer system? Sorry, but this seems like a huge reach.
    Who said that? I was making a general statement at first then applied it to healthcare.

    But, back to the main point - how does single payer solve the problem? Why would we eliminate a viable, willing participant in funding the system? It baffles me that you want total control in the gov't. Not to get Trump involved, but I'm guessing you are on the other threads saying how he is becoming all powerful. Well, why is that even plausible? Because we've created a system where the great over controlling gov't takes care of everything.

    I prefer to focus on creating conditions that can help bend the cost curve THEN apply financing to that. Rather than giving money away, and figuring out the rest later which is the current Obamacare condition.
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • It's a mess because republicans have sabotaged it. From day one. They even opposed pieces that they previously supported. All to "see this president fail." And they still don't have a solution other than, "let the market decide." Which isn't a solution.

    How,did they sabotage it? By not writing a blank check? Good for them.
    Republicans in congress, rather than work with Obama, fought it tooth and nail, the idea of universal care. Rather than be part of the process, they screamed death panels and opposed compromise they previously supported. Then republican states barred the expansion of Medicare as an alternative option. And still they have no plan. None.

    Prior to Obamacare, my premiums and copays increased by double digit %'s year after year after year. The only times they didn't is when I was a union member and collectively we spoke up and since passage, my premiums increased in single % digits and have stayed flat for the past two years. But then again, I work in a state that embraced romneycare from day one and it's what?, only been a decade? And yes, I get excellent care.

    So, what's Trump's solution? Here's a clue, he doesn't have one.
    Well, if you look at HealthyIndiana you start to get an idea. Ryan has put forth some ideas too. It's not necessarily trumps job to come up with a solution. Oh for the days when congress was the legislature.

    Is your plan on the exchanges?

    I've done union employee benefits. You guys were giving up other stuff to maintain those things, it's a choice, which is fine. You made that collectively. Wish we had that for Obamacare.

    And not disagreeing with the rhetoric you sited, but it's just that rhetoric. Cut through that. How were the republicans given a chance? Obama and Pelosi rammed a 2,000 page bill through without allowing anyone to read it. Nice revisionist history in your part.
    Because during negotiations the repubs failed to offer alternatives, support or anything that would result in a final product or victory for Obama. Even after he agreed to address their concerns. They failed. Because all they were concerned about was seeing him fail.

    Why is it that all of our allies have universal health care? Is it really that bad of a concept? It is the 21st century afterall.
    We do have universal health care. I guess it's how you define that. When other countries have our diversity, they can start comparing problems. Did you know there's a small area in Queens NY that has more ethnicities than anywhere in the world? Does Canada have as many ethnicities as Queens NY in its entire country?
    It doesn't matter what ethnicity you are, you still deserve health care. That's a ridiculous non sequitur.

    And the US has universal health care? By what measure?
    I think you missed the point. It wasn't about the ethnicities but the diversity. Sure, I could have picked a better word.

    But, feel free to interpret however you want. The point is, we have far more diversity and all that means both in terms of socioeconomic status, health issues, genetics and everything else that goes into both healthcare considerations and financing. So, I do apologize if my choice of words threw you off.

    what does diversity have to do with access to health care?
    I got sidetracked trying to address another point. Where it does impact is in general when the US tries to solve its problems there are many more layers to the issues than any other country in the world encounters.

    In terms of accessing health care - it can. You walk through Brooklyn and one square block accesses healthcare different than the next block. Hasidic Jews access it differently than the Chinese who access it differently than Hispanic who access it differently than Muslims. These are obviously general statements, but hopefully, we'll stay away from sensationalizing the point and admit that different ethnicities act very differently because of hereditary mores' (mor-ays). The way of family models, diet, care, etc. They are all good. They are all valid. But, the way they access care is very different.
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 5,318

    It's a mess because republicans have sabotaged it. From day one. They even opposed pieces that they previously supported. All to "see this president fail." And they still don't have a solution other than, "let the market decide." Which isn't a solution.

    How,did they sabotage it? By not writing a blank check? Good for them.
    Republicans in congress, rather than work with Obama, fought it tooth and nail, the idea of universal care. Rather than be part of the process, they screamed death panels and opposed compromise they previously supported. Then republican states barred the expansion of Medicare as an alternative option. And still they have no plan. None.

    Prior to Obamacare, my premiums and copays increased by double digit %'s year after year after year. The only times they didn't is when I was a union member and collectively we spoke up and since passage, my premiums increased in single % digits and have stayed flat for the past two years. But then again, I work in a state that embraced romneycare from day one and it's what?, only been a decade? And yes, I get excellent care.

    So, what's Trump's solution? Here's a clue, he doesn't have one.
    Well, if you look at HealthyIndiana you start to get an idea. Ryan has put forth some ideas too. It's not necessarily trumps job to come up with a solution. Oh for the days when congress was the legislature.

    Is your plan on the exchanges?

    I've done union employee benefits. You guys were giving up other stuff to maintain those things, it's a choice, which is fine. You made that collectively. Wish we had that for Obamacare.

    And not disagreeing with the rhetoric you sited, but it's just that rhetoric. Cut through that. How were the republicans given a chance? Obama and Pelosi rammed a 2,000 page bill through without allowing anyone to read it. Nice revisionist history in your part.
    Because during negotiations the repubs failed to offer alternatives, support or anything that would result in a final product or victory for Obama. Even after he agreed to address their concerns. They failed. Because all they were concerned about was seeing him fail.

    Why is it that all of our allies have universal health care? Is it really that bad of a concept? It is the 21st century afterall.
    We do have universal health care. I guess it's how you define that. When other countries have our diversity, they can start comparing problems. Did you know there's a small area in Queens NY that has more ethnicities than anywhere in the world? Does Canada have as many ethnicities as Queens NY in its entire country?
    It doesn't matter what ethnicity you are, you still deserve health care. That's a ridiculous non sequitur.

    And the US has universal health care? By what measure?
    I think you missed the point. It wasn't about the ethnicities but the diversity. Sure, I could have picked a better word.

    But, feel free to interpret however you want. The point is, we have far more diversity and all that means both in terms of socioeconomic status, health issues, genetics and everything else that goes into both healthcare considerations and financing. So, I do apologize if my choice of words threw you off.

    what does diversity have to do with access to health care?
    I got sidetracked trying to address another point. Where it does impact is in general when the US tries to solve its problems there are many more layers to the issues than any other country in the world encounters.

    In terms of accessing health care - it can. You walk through Brooklyn and one square block accesses healthcare different than the next block. Hasidic Jews access it differently than the Chinese who access it differently than Hispanic who access it differently than Muslims. These are obviously general statements, but hopefully, we'll stay away from sensationalizing the point and admit that different ethnicities act very differently because of hereditary mores' (mor-ays). The way of family models, diet, care, etc. They are all good. They are all valid. But, the way they access care is very different.
    And it's good tgat we have other countries with diverse populations to learn from.
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 16,485
    Why are you asking us here how about you write McConnell and ask him what is the plan to replace Obama care , your still blaming Obama the GOP had 8 yrs to come up with a plan to put into effect as soon as Bafoon was elected ...
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 5,318

    It's a mess because republicans have sabotaged it. From day one. They even opposed pieces that they previously supported. All to "see this president fail." And they still don't have a solution other than, "let the market decide." Which isn't a solution.

    How,did they sabotage it? By not writing a blank check? Good for them.
    Republicans in congress, rather than work with Obama, fought it tooth and nail, the idea of universal care. Rather than be part of the process, they screamed death panels and opposed compromise they previously supported. Then republican states barred the expansion of Medicare as an alternative option. And still they have no plan. None.

    Prior to Obamacare, my premiums and copays increased by double digit %'s year after year after year. The only times they didn't is when I was a union member and collectively we spoke up and since passage, my premiums increased in single % digits and have stayed flat for the past two years. But then again, I work in a state that embraced romneycare from day one and it's what?, only been a decade? And yes, I get excellent care.

    So, what's Trump's solution? Here's a clue, he doesn't have one.
    Well, if you look at HealthyIndiana you start to get an idea. Ryan has put forth some ideas too. It's not necessarily trumps job to come up with a solution. Oh for the days when congress was the legislature.

    Is your plan on the exchanges?

    I've done union employee benefits. You guys were giving up other stuff to maintain those things, it's a choice, which is fine. You made that collectively. Wish we had that for Obamacare.

    And not disagreeing with the rhetoric you sited, but it's just that rhetoric. Cut through that. How were the republicans given a chance? Obama and Pelosi rammed a 2,000 page bill through without allowing anyone to read it. Nice revisionist history in your part.
    Because during negotiations the repubs failed to offer alternatives, support or anything that would result in a final product or victory for Obama. Even after he agreed to address their concerns. They failed. Because all they were concerned about was seeing him fail.

    Why is it that all of our allies have universal health care? Is it really that bad of a concept? It is the 21st century afterall.
    We do have universal health care. I guess it's how you define that. When other countries have our diversity, they can start comparing problems. Did you know there's a small area in Queens NY that has more ethnicities than anywhere in the world? Does Canada have as many ethnicities as Queens NY in its entire country?
    It doesn't matter what ethnicity you are, you still deserve health care. That's a ridiculous non sequitur.

    And the US has universal health care? By what measure?
    I think you missed the point. It wasn't about the ethnicities but the diversity. Sure, I could have picked a better word.

    But, feel free to interpret however you want. The point is, we have far more diversity and all that means both in terms of socioeconomic status, health issues, genetics and everything else that goes into both healthcare considerations and financing. So, I do apologize if my choice of words threw you off.

    American diversity would inhibit a single-payer system? Sorry, but this seems like a huge reach.
    Who said that? I was making a general statement at first then applied it to healthcare.

    But, back to the main point - how does single payer solve the problem? Why would we eliminate a viable, willing participant in funding the system? It baffles me that you want total control in the gov't. Not to get Trump involved, but I'm guessing you are on the other threads saying how he is becoming all powerful. Well, why is that even plausible? Because we've created a system where the great over controlling gov't takes care of everything.

    I prefer to focus on creating conditions that can help bend the cost curve THEN apply financing to that. Rather than giving money away, and figuring out the rest later which is the current Obamacare condition.
    You're probably better off leaving out the fear based hyperbole in the argument. You trust the private heath insurance sector. That's fine. I believe that's your career if I remember correctly. I prefer focusing on what works in other countries. The private sector had years to keep costs down and failed. You're under the impression that if we went to a single payer system that current employer contributions would be pocketed by the employer. I know that wouldn't be the case at my current,or past employer. They would've flipped that contribution into our salary.
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 1,186

    what ever happened to earning what you have ? this country has been carrying freeloaders for waaayyyy to long now, watch them scatter like rats when it's time to support themselves.
    just in case....I'm not talking about disabled people, although there are many who play the system as disabled.

    and "earning what you have" only makes sense/is fair if we all started at zero. we don't. inequality starts at conception.
    some people work hard enough to leave something for their kid's...is that a problem ?

    ugh. obviously not. not even close.

    let's say you were born into a family of poverty, STILL A US CITIZEN, and no matter how hard you worked, how hard you sacrificed, how many jobs you had to maintain so your kids could merely eat......you think you deserve LESS healthcare than someone who was born into a middle class family who wants for nothing?
    The problem is assigning people things they deserve. Sure, everyone "deserves" healthcare. And the guy with a 500k job probably doesn't deserve that any more than the guy who makes only 50k and in most cases only received those opportunities because he was born into a class that allowed him a good education and better opportunities.
    The problem with the current system is they are forcing healthy people to pay for more than they need, and forcing wealthier people to pay more than their share. If we level the playing field completely then that destroys the American system. Who's going to start the next billion dollar business by working 80 hours a week that eventually employs thousands, if only to have your success taken and given away?
    The biggest benefactors of the new healthcare system are the insurance companies themselves. This system is a total scam. Only very few actually benefit from it, and those would be anyone who has month or even year long treatments for serious illnesses. Even small doctors offices have to hire a full time employee just to manage healthcare stuff, and that cost is passed on to me. Except my wife's doctor, who just got tired of dealing with it and send us the bill and make us spend weeks or months fighting with insurance to get anything covered.
    If you find a doctor who accepts cash payments, its a third of what they bill insurance. Instead of paying insurance $1500/month to cover a family of 4, that money can be put towards a cash visit at just a fraction of the cost. And even a major medical incident would only cost $3-5000 without insurance (that insurance would send a bill for 20k for, making you think you got a great deal) that would be covered in just 2 or 3 months of not paying these ridiculous premiums.
    So why does AHA get the blame for this? Because the costs have skyrocketed in the last 5 or 6 years since it has become a requirement. 6 years ago I had good health insurance I paid out of pocket myself for less than $150. I had $10 copays to see a doctor, which also covered x-rays if I needed it, lab work, etc. Now my single coworkers pay 3-4 times that. Families pay a combined total (employer contribution + employee cost) of $1500 a month, and if you actually use any of your insurance you get another bill for $200 just to see a doctor that sent in some blood work to get examined. In many cases our pharmacy co-pay is HIGHER than the out-of-pocket cost. My copay may be $60, when the medicine is actually only $40! When I complained to our company about this the only response I got was "It's always a good idea to ask for the out of pocket price."
    This NEVER happened before Obamacare.
    Its a total mess and a scam and the insurance is the biggest benefactor of the system.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 10,290
    mace1229 said:

    what ever happened to earning what you have ? this country has been carrying freeloaders for waaayyyy to long now, watch them scatter like rats when it's time to support themselves.
    just in case....I'm not talking about disabled people, although there are many who play the system as disabled.

    and "earning what you have" only makes sense/is fair if we all started at zero. we don't. inequality starts at conception.
    some people work hard enough to leave something for their kid's...is that a problem ?

    ugh. obviously not. not even close.

    let's say you were born into a family of poverty, STILL A US CITIZEN, and no matter how hard you worked, how hard you sacrificed, how many jobs you had to maintain so your kids could merely eat......you think you deserve LESS healthcare than someone who was born into a middle class family who wants for nothing?
    The problem is assigning people things they deserve. Sure, everyone "deserves" healthcare. And the guy with a 500k job probably doesn't deserve that any more than the guy who makes only 50k and in most cases only received those opportunities because he was born into a class that allowed him a good education and better opportunities.
    The problem with the current system is they are forcing healthy people to pay for more than they need, and forcing wealthier people to pay more than their share. If we level the playing field completely then that destroys the American system. Who's going to start the next billion dollar business by working 80 hours a week that eventually employs thousands, if only to have your success taken and given away?
    The biggest benefactors of the new healthcare system are the insurance companies themselves. This system is a total scam. Only very few actually benefit from it, and those would be anyone who has month or even year long treatments for serious illnesses. Even small doctors offices have to hire a full time employee just to manage healthcare stuff, and that cost is passed on to me. Except my wife's doctor, who just got tired of dealing with it and send us the bill and make us spend weeks or months fighting with insurance to get anything covered.
    If you find a doctor who accepts cash payments, its a third of what they bill insurance. Instead of paying insurance $1500/month to cover a family of 4, that money can be put towards a cash visit at just a fraction of the cost. And even a major medical incident would only cost $3-5000 without insurance (that insurance would send a bill for 20k for, making you think you got a great deal) that would be covered in just 2 or 3 months of not paying these ridiculous premiums.
    So why does AHA get the blame for this? Because the costs have skyrocketed in the last 5 or 6 years since it has become a requirement. 6 years ago I had good health insurance I paid out of pocket myself for less than $150. I had $10 copays to see a doctor, which also covered x-rays if I needed it, lab work, etc. Now my single coworkers pay 3-4 times that. Families pay a combined total (employer contribution + employee cost) of $1500 a month, and if you actually use any of your insurance you get another bill for $200 just to see a doctor that sent in some blood work to get examined. In many cases our pharmacy co-pay is HIGHER than the out-of-pocket cost. My copay may be $60, when the medicine is actually only $40! When I complained to our company about this the only response I got was "It's always a good idea to ask for the out of pocket price."
    This NEVER happened before Obamacare.
    Its a total mess and a scam and the insurance is the biggest benefactor of the system.
    I wasn't arguing the merits of obamacare. I was arguing the merits of health care for all.
    www.headstonesband.com
    www.the-watchmen.com
    www.thehip.com
  • ^^^
    I agree with you once again often :smirk:
    EdsonNascimento up here we all agree that no matter what if you need healthcare you will receive the best no matter your situation.
    We are all human.

    I'm not sure where up here is, but if it's Canada (maybe you meant heaven?), then you are wrong. Why can people buy supplemental plans that get them better access to care? If everyone got the best, that would be unnecessary. No?
    Missed this.

    I know what you're saying but as a regular citizen up here and the only thing that I get frustrated with sometimes are the wait times meaning (up to 45mins or so in a walk in clinic!) or a few hours at the ER we're doing pretty good.
    Aside from that if I get sick or injured I will receive an equal level of care as a billionaire would who chose not to buy a private supplemental plan and that care would be outstanding and free.
    Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not. Both ideas are overwhelming. AE
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 1,186

    mace1229 said:

    what ever happened to earning what you have ? this country has been carrying freeloaders for waaayyyy to long now, watch them scatter like rats when it's time to support themselves.
    just in case....I'm not talking about disabled people, although there are many who play the system as disabled.

    and "earning what you have" only makes sense/is fair if we all started at zero. we don't. inequality starts at conception.
    some people work hard enough to leave something for their kid's...is that a problem ?

    ugh. obviously not. not even close.

    let's say you were born into a family of poverty, STILL A US CITIZEN, and no matter how hard you worked, how hard you sacrificed, how many jobs you had to maintain so your kids could merely eat......you think you deserve LESS healthcare than someone who was born into a middle class family who wants for nothing?
    The problem is assigning people things they deserve. Sure, everyone "deserves" healthcare. And the guy with a 500k job probably doesn't deserve that any more than the guy who makes only 50k and in most cases only received those opportunities because he was born into a class that allowed him a good education and better opportunities.
    The problem with the current system is they are forcing healthy people to pay for more than they need, and forcing wealthier people to pay more than their share. If we level the playing field completely then that destroys the American system. Who's going to start the next billion dollar business by working 80 hours a week that eventually employs thousands, if only to have your success taken and given away?
    The biggest benefactors of the new healthcare system are the insurance companies themselves. This system is a total scam. Only very few actually benefit from it, and those would be anyone who has month or even year long treatments for serious illnesses. Even small doctors offices have to hire a full time employee just to manage healthcare stuff, and that cost is passed on to me. Except my wife's doctor, who just got tired of dealing with it and send us the bill and make us spend weeks or months fighting with insurance to get anything covered.
    If you find a doctor who accepts cash payments, its a third of what they bill insurance. Instead of paying insurance $1500/month to cover a family of 4, that money can be put towards a cash visit at just a fraction of the cost. And even a major medical incident would only cost $3-5000 without insurance (that insurance would send a bill for 20k for, making you think you got a great deal) that would be covered in just 2 or 3 months of not paying these ridiculous premiums.
    So why does AHA get the blame for this? Because the costs have skyrocketed in the last 5 or 6 years since it has become a requirement. 6 years ago I had good health insurance I paid out of pocket myself for less than $150. I had $10 copays to see a doctor, which also covered x-rays if I needed it, lab work, etc. Now my single coworkers pay 3-4 times that. Families pay a combined total (employer contribution + employee cost) of $1500 a month, and if you actually use any of your insurance you get another bill for $200 just to see a doctor that sent in some blood work to get examined. In many cases our pharmacy co-pay is HIGHER than the out-of-pocket cost. My copay may be $60, when the medicine is actually only $40! When I complained to our company about this the only response I got was "It's always a good idea to ask for the out of pocket price."
    This NEVER happened before Obamacare.
    Its a total mess and a scam and the insurance is the biggest benefactor of the system.
    I wasn't arguing the merits of obamacare. I was arguing the merits of health care for all.
    I got a little side-tracked with my frustration.
    The problem with healthcare for all is many end up over paying, or paying for things they don't need or want. AHA even advertises that they need more healthy people to sign up to cover the cost of the unhealthy.
    How is it fair to make some healthy kid just out of school and probably will see the doctor once every few years pay the same cost as someone who's 70 and smoked their whole life? But without massive tax increases, that is the only plan so far to make it for all.
    You wouldn't make good drivers pay more to subsidize the cost of bad drivers, why should healthcare be different?
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 5,318
    mace1229 said:

    mace1229 said:

    what ever happened to earning what you have ? this country has been carrying freeloaders for waaayyyy to long now, watch them scatter like rats when it's time to support themselves.
    just in case....I'm not talking about disabled people, although there are many who play the system as disabled.

    and "earning what you have" only makes sense/is fair if we all started at zero. we don't. inequality starts at conception.
    some people work hard enough to leave something for their kid's...is that a problem ?

    ugh. obviously not. not even close.

    let's say you were born into a family of poverty, STILL A US CITIZEN, and no matter how hard you worked, how hard you sacrificed, how many jobs you had to maintain so your kids could merely eat......you think you deserve LESS healthcare than someone who was born into a middle class family who wants for nothing?
    The problem is assigning people things they deserve. Sure, everyone "deserves" healthcare. And the guy with a 500k job probably doesn't deserve that any more than the guy who makes only 50k and in most cases only received those opportunities because he was born into a class that allowed him a good education and better opportunities.
    The problem with the current system is they are forcing healthy people to pay for more than they need, and forcing wealthier people to pay more than their share. If we level the playing field completely then that destroys the American system. Who's going to start the next billion dollar business by working 80 hours a week that eventually employs thousands, if only to have your success taken and given away?
    The biggest benefactors of the new healthcare system are the insurance companies themselves. This system is a total scam. Only very few actually benefit from it, and those would be anyone who has month or even year long treatments for serious illnesses. Even small doctors offices have to hire a full time employee just to manage healthcare stuff, and that cost is passed on to me. Except my wife's doctor, who just got tired of dealing with it and send us the bill and make us spend weeks or months fighting with insurance to get anything covered.
    If you find a doctor who accepts cash payments, its a third of what they bill insurance. Instead of paying insurance $1500/month to cover a family of 4, that money can be put towards a cash visit at just a fraction of the cost. And even a major medical incident would only cost $3-5000 without insurance (that insurance would send a bill for 20k for, making you think you got a great deal) that would be covered in just 2 or 3 months of not paying these ridiculous premiums.
    So why does AHA get the blame for this? Because the costs have skyrocketed in the last 5 or 6 years since it has become a requirement. 6 years ago I had good health insurance I paid out of pocket myself for less than $150. I had $10 copays to see a doctor, which also covered x-rays if I needed it, lab work, etc. Now my single coworkers pay 3-4 times that. Families pay a combined total (employer contribution + employee cost) of $1500 a month, and if you actually use any of your insurance you get another bill for $200 just to see a doctor that sent in some blood work to get examined. In many cases our pharmacy co-pay is HIGHER than the out-of-pocket cost. My copay may be $60, when the medicine is actually only $40! When I complained to our company about this the only response I got was "It's always a good idea to ask for the out of pocket price."
    This NEVER happened before Obamacare.
    Its a total mess and a scam and the insurance is the biggest benefactor of the system.
    I wasn't arguing the merits of obamacare. I was arguing the merits of health care for all.
    I got a little side-tracked with my frustration.
    The problem with healthcare for all is many end up over paying, or paying for things they don't need or want. AHA even advertises that they need more healthy people to sign up to cover the cost of the unhealthy.
    How is it fair to make some healthy kid just out of school and probably will see the doctor once every few years pay the same cost as someone who's 70 and smoked their whole life? But without massive tax increases, that is the only plan so far to make it for all.
    You wouldn't make good drivers pay more to subsidize the cost of bad drivers, why should healthcare be different?
    Good drivers are subsidizing the cost of bad drivers. Call it insurance premiums or taxes. Sometimes you pay more in than you use, and sometimes you don't.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 10,290
    mace1229 said:

    mace1229 said:

    what ever happened to earning what you have ? this country has been carrying freeloaders for waaayyyy to long now, watch them scatter like rats when it's time to support themselves.
    just in case....I'm not talking about disabled people, although there are many who play the system as disabled.

    and "earning what you have" only makes sense/is fair if we all started at zero. we don't. inequality starts at conception.
    some people work hard enough to leave something for their kid's...is that a problem ?

    ugh. obviously not. not even close.

    let's say you were born into a family of poverty, STILL A US CITIZEN, and no matter how hard you worked, how hard you sacrificed, how many jobs you had to maintain so your kids could merely eat......you think you deserve LESS healthcare than someone who was born into a middle class family who wants for nothing?
    The problem is assigning people things they deserve. Sure, everyone "deserves" healthcare. And the guy with a 500k job probably doesn't deserve that any more than the guy who makes only 50k and in most cases only received those opportunities because he was born into a class that allowed him a good education and better opportunities.
    The problem with the current system is they are forcing healthy people to pay for more than they need, and forcing wealthier people to pay more than their share. If we level the playing field completely then that destroys the American system. Who's going to start the next billion dollar business by working 80 hours a week that eventually employs thousands, if only to have your success taken and given away?
    The biggest benefactors of the new healthcare system are the insurance companies themselves. This system is a total scam. Only very few actually benefit from it, and those would be anyone who has month or even year long treatments for serious illnesses. Even small doctors offices have to hire a full time employee just to manage healthcare stuff, and that cost is passed on to me. Except my wife's doctor, who just got tired of dealing with it and send us the bill and make us spend weeks or months fighting with insurance to get anything covered.
    If you find a doctor who accepts cash payments, its a third of what they bill insurance. Instead of paying insurance $1500/month to cover a family of 4, that money can be put towards a cash visit at just a fraction of the cost. And even a major medical incident would only cost $3-5000 without insurance (that insurance would send a bill for 20k for, making you think you got a great deal) that would be covered in just 2 or 3 months of not paying these ridiculous premiums.
    So why does AHA get the blame for this? Because the costs have skyrocketed in the last 5 or 6 years since it has become a requirement. 6 years ago I had good health insurance I paid out of pocket myself for less than $150. I had $10 copays to see a doctor, which also covered x-rays if I needed it, lab work, etc. Now my single coworkers pay 3-4 times that. Families pay a combined total (employer contribution + employee cost) of $1500 a month, and if you actually use any of your insurance you get another bill for $200 just to see a doctor that sent in some blood work to get examined. In many cases our pharmacy co-pay is HIGHER than the out-of-pocket cost. My copay may be $60, when the medicine is actually only $40! When I complained to our company about this the only response I got was "It's always a good idea to ask for the out of pocket price."
    This NEVER happened before Obamacare.
    Its a total mess and a scam and the insurance is the biggest benefactor of the system.
    I wasn't arguing the merits of obamacare. I was arguing the merits of health care for all.
    I got a little side-tracked with my frustration.
    The problem with healthcare for all is many end up over paying, or paying for things they don't need or want. AHA even advertises that they need more healthy people to sign up to cover the cost of the unhealthy.
    How is it fair to make some healthy kid just out of school and probably will see the doctor once every few years pay the same cost as someone who's 70 and smoked their whole life? But without massive tax increases, that is the only plan so far to make it for all.
    You wouldn't make good drivers pay more to subsidize the cost of bad drivers, why should healthcare be different?
    I agree that it's not perfect. I too have my own issues with your example, but that's the sacrfiice you have to make in order for everyone to be covered. does it suck that some tax the system because of their own personal life choices? but if I am forced to make the choice between having to endure folks who tax the system or someone not being able to access care for a condition they got through no fault of their own, I choose the former, every single time.
    www.headstonesband.com
    www.the-watchmen.com
    www.thehip.com
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 1,186

    mace1229 said:

    mace1229 said:

    what ever happened to earning what you have ? this country has been carrying freeloaders for waaayyyy to long now, watch them scatter like rats when it's time to support themselves.
    just in case....I'm not talking about disabled people, although there are many who play the system as disabled.

    and "earning what you have" only makes sense/is fair if we all started at zero. we don't. inequality starts at conception.
    some people work hard enough to leave something for their kid's...is that a problem ?

    ugh. obviously not. not even close.

    let's say you were born into a family of poverty, STILL A US CITIZEN, and no matter how hard you worked, how hard you sacrificed, how many jobs you had to maintain so your kids could merely eat......you think you deserve LESS healthcare than someone who was born into a middle class family who wants for nothing?
    The problem is assigning people things they deserve. Sure, everyone "deserves" healthcare. And the guy with a 500k job probably doesn't deserve that any more than the guy who makes only 50k and in most cases only received those opportunities because he was born into a class that allowed him a good education and better opportunities.
    The problem with the current system is they are forcing healthy people to pay for more than they need, and forcing wealthier people to pay more than their share. If we level the playing field completely then that destroys the American system. Who's going to start the next billion dollar business by working 80 hours a week that eventually employs thousands, if only to have your success taken and given away?
    The biggest benefactors of the new healthcare system are the insurance companies themselves. This system is a total scam. Only very few actually benefit from it, and those would be anyone who has month or even year long treatments for serious illnesses. Even small doctors offices have to hire a full time employee just to manage healthcare stuff, and that cost is passed on to me. Except my wife's doctor, who just got tired of dealing with it and send us the bill and make us spend weeks or months fighting with insurance to get anything covered.
    If you find a doctor who accepts cash payments, its a third of what they bill insurance. Instead of paying insurance $1500/month to cover a family of 4, that money can be put towards a cash visit at just a fraction of the cost. And even a major medical incident would only cost $3-5000 without insurance (that insurance would send a bill for 20k for, making you think you got a great deal) that would be covered in just 2 or 3 months of not paying these ridiculous premiums.
    So why does AHA get the blame for this? Because the costs have skyrocketed in the last 5 or 6 years since it has become a requirement. 6 years ago I had good health insurance I paid out of pocket myself for less than $150. I had $10 copays to see a doctor, which also covered x-rays if I needed it, lab work, etc. Now my single coworkers pay 3-4 times that. Families pay a combined total (employer contribution + employee cost) of $1500 a month, and if you actually use any of your insurance you get another bill for $200 just to see a doctor that sent in some blood work to get examined. In many cases our pharmacy co-pay is HIGHER than the out-of-pocket cost. My copay may be $60, when the medicine is actually only $40! When I complained to our company about this the only response I got was "It's always a good idea to ask for the out of pocket price."
    This NEVER happened before Obamacare.
    Its a total mess and a scam and the insurance is the biggest benefactor of the system.
    I wasn't arguing the merits of obamacare. I was arguing the merits of health care for all.
    I got a little side-tracked with my frustration.
    The problem with healthcare for all is many end up over paying, or paying for things they don't need or want. AHA even advertises that they need more healthy people to sign up to cover the cost of the unhealthy.
    How is it fair to make some healthy kid just out of school and probably will see the doctor once every few years pay the same cost as someone who's 70 and smoked their whole life? But without massive tax increases, that is the only plan so far to make it for all.
    You wouldn't make good drivers pay more to subsidize the cost of bad drivers, why should healthcare be different?
    Good drivers are subsidizing the cost of bad drivers. Call it insurance premiums or taxes. Sometimes you pay more in than you use, and sometimes you don't.
    Only to a small extent. Good drivers pay a lot less, usually at least half. Sure, there's some added "uninsured motorist" coverage and other things, and just in general the amount of bad drivers on the road. But someone with my same plan who has a few tickets and just a single accident will pay 2-3 times what I pay.
    Health insurance use to be the same, you pay based on your health. Someone who eats right and exercises and is generally healthy would have a pretty low premium. Now they are forced to pay more, and if they don't, they get taxed more to make up for the cost of the 400lb guy eating Cheetos on his couch who's going to have a heart attack at any moment and sees the doctor every other week and will eventually get major heart surgery.
    And if that is how you want to live that is fine, but why force everyone to pay into that? Especially those who can't afford to.
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 5,318
    mace1229 said:

    mace1229 said:

    mace1229 said:

    what ever happened to earning what you have ? this country has been carrying freeloaders for waaayyyy to long now, watch them scatter like rats when it's time to support themselves.
    just in case....I'm not talking about disabled people, although there are many who play the system as disabled.

    and "earning what you have" only makes sense/is fair if we all started at zero. we don't. inequality starts at conception.
    some people work hard enough to leave something for their kid's...is that a problem ?

    ugh. obviously not. not even close.

    let's say you were born into a family of poverty, STILL A US CITIZEN, and no matter how hard you worked, how hard you sacrificed, how many jobs you had to maintain so your kids could merely eat......you think you deserve LESS healthcare than someone who was born into a middle class family who wants for nothing?
    The problem is assigning people things they deserve. Sure, everyone "deserves" healthcare. And the guy with a 500k job probably doesn't deserve that any more than the guy who makes only 50k and in most cases only received those opportunities because he was born into a class that allowed him a good education and better opportunities.
    The problem with the current system is they are forcing healthy people to pay for more than they need, and forcing wealthier people to pay more than their share. If we level the playing field completely then that destroys the American system. Who's going to start the next billion dollar business by working 80 hours a week that eventually employs thousands, if only to have your success taken and given away?
    The biggest benefactors of the new healthcare system are the insurance companies themselves. This system is a total scam. Only very few actually benefit from it, and those would be anyone who has month or even year long treatments for serious illnesses. Even small doctors offices have to hire a full time employee just to manage healthcare stuff, and that cost is passed on to me. Except my wife's doctor, who just got tired of dealing with it and send us the bill and make us spend weeks or months fighting with insurance to get anything covered.
    If you find a doctor who accepts cash payments, its a third of what they bill insurance. Instead of paying insurance $1500/month to cover a family of 4, that money can be put towards a cash visit at just a fraction of the cost. And even a major medical incident would only cost $3-5000 without insurance (that insurance would send a bill for 20k for, making you think you got a great deal) that would be covered in just 2 or 3 months of not paying these ridiculous premiums.
    So why does AHA get the blame for this? Because the costs have skyrocketed in the last 5 or 6 years since it has become a requirement. 6 years ago I had good health insurance I paid out of pocket myself for less than $150. I had $10 copays to see a doctor, which also covered x-rays if I needed it, lab work, etc. Now my single coworkers pay 3-4 times that. Families pay a combined total (employer contribution + employee cost) of $1500 a month, and if you actually use any of your insurance you get another bill for $200 just to see a doctor that sent in some blood work to get examined. In many cases our pharmacy co-pay is HIGHER than the out-of-pocket cost. My copay may be $60, when the medicine is actually only $40! When I complained to our company about this the only response I got was "It's always a good idea to ask for the out of pocket price."
    This NEVER happened before Obamacare.
    Its a total mess and a scam and the insurance is the biggest benefactor of the system.
    I wasn't arguing the merits of obamacare. I was arguing the merits of health care for all.
    I got a little side-tracked with my frustration.
    The problem with healthcare for all is many end up over paying, or paying for things they don't need or want. AHA even advertises that they need more healthy people to sign up to cover the cost of the unhealthy.
    How is it fair to make some healthy kid just out of school and probably will see the doctor once every few years pay the same cost as someone who's 70 and smoked their whole life? But without massive tax increases, that is the only plan so far to make it for all.
    You wouldn't make good drivers pay more to subsidize the cost of bad drivers, why should healthcare be different?
    Good drivers are subsidizing the cost of bad drivers. Call it insurance premiums or taxes. Sometimes you pay more in than you use, and sometimes you don't.
    Only to a small extent. Good drivers pay a lot less, usually at least half. Sure, there's some added "uninsured motorist" coverage and other things, and just in general the amount of bad drivers on the road. But someone with my same plan who has a few tickets and just a single accident will pay 2-3 times what I pay.
    Health insurance use to be the same, you pay based on your health. Someone who eats right and exercises and is generally healthy would have a pretty low premium. Now they are forced to pay more, and if they don't, they get taxed more to make up for the cost of the 400lb guy eating Cheetos on his couch who's going to have a heart attack at any moment and sees the doctor every other week and will eventually get major heart surgery.
    And if that is how you want to live that is fine, but why force everyone to pay into that? Especially those who can't afford to.
    I'm 46 and I have no memory of insurance premiums being adjusted for being healthy.
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 1,186

    mace1229 said:

    mace1229 said:

    what ever happened to earning what you have ? this country has been carrying freeloaders for waaayyyy to long now, watch them scatter like rats when it's time to support themselves.
    just in case....I'm not talking about disabled people, although there are many who play the system as disabled.

    and "earning what you have" only makes sense/is fair if we all started at zero. we don't. inequality starts at conception.
    some people work hard enough to leave something for their kid's...is that a problem ?

    ugh. obviously not. not even close.

    let's say you were born into a family of poverty, STILL A US CITIZEN, and no matter how hard you worked, how hard you sacrificed, how many jobs you had to maintain so your kids could merely eat......you think you deserve LESS healthcare than someone who was born into a middle class family who wants for nothing?
    The problem is assigning people things they deserve. Sure, everyone "deserves" healthcare. And the guy with a 500k job probably doesn't deserve that any more than the guy who makes only 50k and in most cases only received those opportunities because he was born into a class that allowed him a good education and better opportunities.
    The problem with the current system is they are forcing healthy people to pay for more than they need, and forcing wealthier people to pay more than their share. If we level the playing field completely then that destroys the American system. Who's going to start the next billion dollar business by working 80 hours a week that eventually employs thousands, if only to have your success taken and given away?
    The biggest benefactors of the new healthcare system are the insurance companies themselves. This system is a total scam. Only very few actually benefit from it, and those would be anyone who has month or even year long treatments for serious illnesses. Even small doctors offices have to hire a full time employee just to manage healthcare stuff, and that cost is passed on to me. Except my wife's doctor, who just got tired of dealing with it and send us the bill and make us spend weeks or months fighting with insurance to get anything covered.
    If you find a doctor who accepts cash payments, its a third of what they bill insurance. Instead of paying insurance $1500/month to cover a family of 4, that money can be put towards a cash visit at just a fraction of the cost. And even a major medical incident would only cost $3-5000 without insurance (that insurance would send a bill for 20k for, making you think you got a great deal) that would be covered in just 2 or 3 months of not paying these ridiculous premiums.
    So why does AHA get the blame for this? Because the costs have skyrocketed in the last 5 or 6 years since it has become a requirement. 6 years ago I had good health insurance I paid out of pocket myself for less than $150. I had $10 copays to see a doctor, which also covered x-rays if I needed it, lab work, etc. Now my single coworkers pay 3-4 times that. Families pay a combined total (employer contribution + employee cost) of $1500 a month, and if you actually use any of your insurance you get another bill for $200 just to see a doctor that sent in some blood work to get examined. In many cases our pharmacy co-pay is HIGHER than the out-of-pocket cost. My copay may be $60, when the medicine is actually only $40! When I complained to our company about this the only response I got was "It's always a good idea to ask for the out of pocket price."
    This NEVER happened before Obamacare.
    Its a total mess and a scam and the insurance is the biggest benefactor of the system.
    I wasn't arguing the merits of obamacare. I was arguing the merits of health care for all.
    I got a little side-tracked with my frustration.
    The problem with healthcare for all is many end up over paying, or paying for things they don't need or want. AHA even advertises that they need more healthy people to sign up to cover the cost of the unhealthy.
    How is it fair to make some healthy kid just out of school and probably will see the doctor once every few years pay the same cost as someone who's 70 and smoked their whole life? But without massive tax increases, that is the only plan so far to make it for all.
    You wouldn't make good drivers pay more to subsidize the cost of bad drivers, why should healthcare be different?
    I agree that it's not perfect. I too have my own issues with your example, but that's the sacrfiice you have to make in order for everyone to be covered. does it suck that some tax the system because of their own personal life choices? but if I am forced to make the choice between having to endure folks who tax the system or someone not being able to access care for a condition they got through no fault of their own, I choose the former, every single time.
    I would be much happier with a system that helped people with those conditions you were referring to. A sort of "major health issue" with a sort of "no fault of their own" clause.
    But that isn't the case. The bottom line is we (or I) are forced to pay significantly more than my share. It also affects our healthcare decisions when the costs is still so high even after paying ridiculous premiums that we have to debate weather to wait to take our sick child to the doctor now or try to wait it out.
  • mace1229 said:

    mace1229 said:

    mace1229 said:

    what ever happened to earning what you have ? this country has been carrying freeloaders for waaayyyy to long now, watch them scatter like rats when it's time to support themselves.
    just in case....I'm not talking about disabled people, although there are many who play the system as disabled.

    and "earning what you have" only makes sense/is fair if we all started at zero. we don't. inequality starts at conception.
    some people work hard enough to leave something for their kid's...is that a problem ?

    ugh. obviously not. not even close.

    let's say you were born into a family of poverty, STILL A US CITIZEN, and no matter how hard you worked, how hard you sacrificed, how many jobs you had to maintain so your kids could merely eat......you think you deserve LESS healthcare than someone who was born into a middle class family who wants for nothing?
    The problem is assigning people things they deserve. Sure, everyone "deserves" healthcare. And the guy with a 500k job probably doesn't deserve that any more than the guy who makes only 50k and in most cases only received those opportunities because he was born into a class that allowed him a good education and better opportunities.
    The problem with the current system is they are forcing healthy people to pay for more than they need, and forcing wealthier people to pay more than their share. If we level the playing field completely then that destroys the American system. Who's going to start the next billion dollar business by working 80 hours a week that eventually employs thousands, if only to have your success taken and given away?
    The biggest benefactors of the new healthcare system are the insurance companies themselves. This system is a total scam. Only very few actually benefit from it, and those would be anyone who has month or even year long treatments for serious illnesses. Even small doctors offices have to hire a full time employee just to manage healthcare stuff, and that cost is passed on to me. Except my wife's doctor, who just got tired of dealing with it and send us the bill and make us spend weeks or months fighting with insurance to get anything covered.
    If you find a doctor who accepts cash payments, its a third of what they bill insurance. Instead of paying insurance $1500/month to cover a family of 4, that money can be put towards a cash visit at just a fraction of the cost. And even a major medical incident would only cost $3-5000 without insurance (that insurance would send a bill for 20k for, making you think you got a great deal) that would be covered in just 2 or 3 months of not paying these ridiculous premiums.
    So why does AHA get the blame for this? Because the costs have skyrocketed in the last 5 or 6 years since it has become a requirement. 6 years ago I had good health insurance I paid out of pocket myself for less than $150. I had $10 copays to see a doctor, which also covered x-rays if I needed it, lab work, etc. Now my single coworkers pay 3-4 times that. Families pay a combined total (employer contribution + employee cost) of $1500 a month, and if you actually use any of your insurance you get another bill for $200 just to see a doctor that sent in some blood work to get examined. In many cases our pharmacy co-pay is HIGHER than the out-of-pocket cost. My copay may be $60, when the medicine is actually only $40! When I complained to our company about this the only response I got was "It's always a good idea to ask for the out of pocket price."
    This NEVER happened before Obamacare.
    Its a total mess and a scam and the insurance is the biggest benefactor of the system.
    I wasn't arguing the merits of obamacare. I was arguing the merits of health care for all.
    I got a little side-tracked with my frustration.
    The problem with healthcare for all is many end up over paying, or paying for things they don't need or want. AHA even advertises that they need more healthy people to sign up to cover the cost of the unhealthy.
    How is it fair to make some healthy kid just out of school and probably will see the doctor once every few years pay the same cost as someone who's 70 and smoked their whole life? But without massive tax increases, that is the only plan so far to make it for all.
    You wouldn't make good drivers pay more to subsidize the cost of bad drivers, why should healthcare be different?
    Good drivers are subsidizing the cost of bad drivers. Call it insurance premiums or taxes. Sometimes you pay more in than you use, and sometimes you don't.
    Only to a small extent. Good drivers pay a lot less, usually at least half. Sure, there's some added "uninsured motorist" coverage and other things, and just in general the amount of bad drivers on the road. But someone with my same plan who has a few tickets and just a single accident will pay 2-3 times what I pay.
    Health insurance use to be the same, you pay based on your health. Someone who eats right and exercises and is generally healthy would have a pretty low premium. Now they are forced to pay more, and if they don't, they get taxed more to make up for the cost of the 400lb guy eating Cheetos on his couch who's going to have a heart attack at any moment and sees the doctor every other week and will eventually get major heart surgery.
    And if that is how you want to live that is fine, but why force everyone to pay into that? Especially those who can't afford to.
    I've owned a car and have paid auto insurance premiums for 27 years, many of them with full liability and collision because of car loans. I've filed one claim for a busted rear windshield when vandals put a rock through it. Did I overpay and subsidize bad drivers? And this in a mandatory insurance state. Care to link to your insurance company? I'd be interested in surfing their website as if I'm shopping for insurance.

    Part of the problem is government subsidizing unhealthy habits, smoking, sugar, processed foods, corn syrup, etc. industries and businesses, out of political disapproval, deciding to stick it to the big bad government by purposely canceling their health insurance so the government could foot the bill. And Michelle Obama was ridiculed because she wanted kids to eat healthy and exercise. Stop taking away our freedoms! Please. Stop subsidizing poor outcomes and subsidize healthy ones instead and eventually you'll see that cost curve bend. But typical American, I want it right now but I don't want to pay for it.
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL;

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

    Brilliantati©
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 5,318
    mace1229 said:

    mace1229 said:

    mace1229 said:

    what ever happened to earning what you have ? this country has been carrying freeloaders for waaayyyy to long now, watch them scatter like rats when it's time to support themselves.
    just in case....I'm not talking about disabled people, although there are many who play the system as disabled.

    and "earning what you have" only makes sense/is fair if we all started at zero. we don't. inequality starts at conception.
    some people work hard enough to leave something for their kid's...is that a problem ?

    ugh. obviously not. not even close.

    let's say you were born into a family of poverty, STILL A US CITIZEN, and no matter how hard you worked, how hard you sacrificed, how many jobs you had to maintain so your kids could merely eat......you think you deserve LESS healthcare than someone who was born into a middle class family who wants for nothing?
    The problem is assigning people things they deserve. Sure, everyone "deserves" healthcare. And the guy with a 500k job probably doesn't deserve that any more than the guy who makes only 50k and in most cases only received those opportunities because he was born into a class that allowed him a good education and better opportunities.
    The problem with the current system is they are forcing healthy people to pay for more than they need, and forcing wealthier people to pay more than their share. If we level the playing field completely then that destroys the American system. Who's going to start the next billion dollar business by working 80 hours a week that eventually employs thousands, if only to have your success taken and given away?
    The biggest benefactors of the new healthcare system are the insurance companies themselves. This system is a total scam. Only very few actually benefit from it, and those would be anyone who has month or even year long treatments for serious illnesses. Even small doctors offices have to hire a full time employee just to manage healthcare stuff, and that cost is passed on to me. Except my wife's doctor, who just got tired of dealing with it and send us the bill and make us spend weeks or months fighting with insurance to get anything covered.
    If you find a doctor who accepts cash payments, its a third of what they bill insurance. Instead of paying insurance $1500/month to cover a family of 4, that money can be put towards a cash visit at just a fraction of the cost. And even a major medical incident would only cost $3-5000 without insurance (that insurance would send a bill for 20k for, making you think you got a great deal) that would be covered in just 2 or 3 months of not paying these ridiculous premiums.
    So why does AHA get the blame for this? Because the costs have skyrocketed in the last 5 or 6 years since it has become a requirement. 6 years ago I had good health insurance I paid out of pocket myself for less than $150. I had $10 copays to see a doctor, which also covered x-rays if I needed it, lab work, etc. Now my single coworkers pay 3-4 times that. Families pay a combined total (employer contribution + employee cost) of $1500 a month, and if you actually use any of your insurance you get another bill for $200 just to see a doctor that sent in some blood work to get examined. In many cases our pharmacy co-pay is HIGHER than the out-of-pocket cost. My copay may be $60, when the medicine is actually only $40! When I complained to our company about this the only response I got was "It's always a good idea to ask for the out of pocket price."
    This NEVER happened before Obamacare.
    Its a total mess and a scam and the insurance is the biggest benefactor of the system.
    I wasn't arguing the merits of obamacare. I was arguing the merits of health care for all.
    I got a little side-tracked with my frustration.
    The problem with healthcare for all is many end up over paying, or paying for things they don't need or want. AHA even advertises that they need more healthy people to sign up to cover the cost of the unhealthy.
    How is it fair to make some healthy kid just out of school and probably will see the doctor once every few years pay the same cost as someone who's 70 and smoked their whole life? But without massive tax increases, that is the only plan so far to make it for all.
    You wouldn't make good drivers pay more to subsidize the cost of bad drivers, why should healthcare be different?
    I agree that it's not perfect. I too have my own issues with your example, but that's the sacrfiice you have to make in order for everyone to be covered. does it suck that some tax the system because of their own personal life choices? but if I am forced to make the choice between having to endure folks who tax the system or someone not being able to access care for a condition they got through no fault of their own, I choose the former, every single time.
    I would be much happier with a system that helped people with those conditions you were referring to. A sort of "major health issue" with a sort of "no fault of their own" clause.
    But that isn't the case. The bottom line is we (or I) are forced to pay significantly more than my share. It also affects our healthcare decisions when the costs is still so high even after paying ridiculous premiums that we have to debate weather to wait to take our sick child to the doctor now or try to wait it out.
    It might be misguided to blame the high costs on the consumer. Countries where everyone is insured have lower costs.
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 1,186

    mace1229 said:

    mace1229 said:

    mace1229 said:

    what ever happened to earning what you have ? this country has been carrying freeloaders for waaayyyy to long now, watch them scatter like rats when it's time to support themselves.
    just in case....I'm not talking about disabled people, although there are many who play the system as disabled.

    and "earning what you have" only makes sense/is fair if we all started at zero. we don't. inequality starts at conception.
    some people work hard enough to leave something for their kid's...is that a problem ?

    ugh. obviously not. not even close.

    let's say you were born into a family of poverty, STILL A US CITIZEN, and no matter how hard you worked, how hard you sacrificed, how many jobs you had to maintain so your kids could merely eat......you think you deserve LESS healthcare than someone who was born into a middle class family who wants for nothing?
    The problem is assigning people things they deserve. Sure, everyone "deserves" healthcare. And the guy with a 500k job probably doesn't deserve that any more than the guy who makes only 50k and in most cases only received those opportunities because he was born into a class that allowed him a good education and better opportunities.
    The problem with the current system is they are forcing healthy people to pay for more than they need, and forcing wealthier people to pay more than their share. If we level the playing field completely then that destroys the American system. Who's going to start the next billion dollar business by working 80 hours a week that eventually employs thousands, if only to have your success taken and given away?
    The biggest benefactors of the new healthcare system are the insurance companies themselves. This system is a total scam. Only very few actually benefit from it, and those would be anyone who has month or even year long treatments for serious illnesses. Even small doctors offices have to hire a full time employee just to manage healthcare stuff, and that cost is passed on to me. Except my wife's doctor, who just got tired of dealing with it and send us the bill and make us spend weeks or months fighting with insurance to get anything covered.
    If you find a doctor who accepts cash payments, its a third of what they bill insurance. Instead of paying insurance $1500/month to cover a family of 4, that money can be put towards a cash visit at just a fraction of the cost. And even a major medical incident would only cost $3-5000 without insurance (that insurance would send a bill for 20k for, making you think you got a great deal) that would be covered in just 2 or 3 months of not paying these ridiculous premiums.
    So why does AHA get the blame for this? Because the costs have skyrocketed in the last 5 or 6 years since it has become a requirement. 6 years ago I had good health insurance I paid out of pocket myself for less than $150. I had $10 copays to see a doctor, which also covered x-rays if I needed it, lab work, etc. Now my single coworkers pay 3-4 times that. Families pay a combined total (employer contribution + employee cost) of $1500 a month, and if you actually use any of your insurance you get another bill for $200 just to see a doctor that sent in some blood work to get examined. In many cases our pharmacy co-pay is HIGHER than the out-of-pocket cost. My copay may be $60, when the medicine is actually only $40! When I complained to our company about this the only response I got was "It's always a good idea to ask for the out of pocket price."
    This NEVER happened before Obamacare.
    Its a total mess and a scam and the insurance is the biggest benefactor of the system.
    I wasn't arguing the merits of obamacare. I was arguing the merits of health care for all.
    I got a little side-tracked with my frustration.
    The problem with healthcare for all is many end up over paying, or paying for things they don't need or want. AHA even advertises that they need more healthy people to sign up to cover the cost of the unhealthy.
    How is it fair to make some healthy kid just out of school and probably will see the doctor once every few years pay the same cost as someone who's 70 and smoked their whole life? But without massive tax increases, that is the only plan so far to make it for all.
    You wouldn't make good drivers pay more to subsidize the cost of bad drivers, why should healthcare be different?
    I agree that it's not perfect. I too have my own issues with your example, but that's the sacrfiice you have to make in order for everyone to be covered. does it suck that some tax the system because of their own personal life choices? but if I am forced to make the choice between having to endure folks who tax the system or someone not being able to access care for a condition they got through no fault of their own, I choose the former, every single time.
    I would be much happier with a system that helped people with those conditions you were referring to. A sort of "major health issue" with a sort of "no fault of their own" clause.
    But that isn't the case. The bottom line is we (or I) are forced to pay significantly more than my share. It also affects our healthcare decisions when the costs is still so high even after paying ridiculous premiums that we have to debate weather to wait to take our sick child to the doctor now or try to wait it out.
    It might be misguided to blame the high costs on the consumer. Countries where everyone is insured have lower costs.
    Isnt that the point of Obamacare? But its only gotten worse.
    And I wasn't trying to blame the consumer, I blame the insurance agencies. Drop the insurance and healthcare will be affordable, with the exception of catastrophic events, for which they could be very cheap month premiums, since 99% of the country wouldn't need it.
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin LouisPosts: 15,760

    It's a mess because republicans have sabotaged it. From day one. They even opposed pieces that they previously supported. All to "see this president fail." And they still don't have a solution other than, "let the market decide." Which isn't a solution.

    How,did they sabotage it? By not writing a blank check? Good for them.
    Republicans in congress, rather than work with Obama, fought it tooth and nail, the idea of universal care. Rather than be part of the process, they screamed death panels and opposed compromise they previously supported. Then republican states barred the expansion of Medicare as an alternative option. And still they have no plan. None.

    Prior to Obamacare, my premiums and copays increased by double digit %'s year after year after year. The only times they didn't is when I was a union member and collectively we spoke up and since passage, my premiums increased in single % digits and have stayed flat for the past two years. But then again, I work in a state that embraced romneycare from day one and it's what?, only been a decade? And yes, I get excellent care.

    So, what's Trump's solution? Here's a clue, he doesn't have one.
    Well, if you look at HealthyIndiana you start to get an idea. Ryan has put forth some ideas too. It's not necessarily trumps job to come up with a solution. Oh for the days when congress was the legislature.

    Is your plan on the exchanges?

    I've done union employee benefits. You guys were giving up other stuff to maintain those things, it's a choice, which is fine. You made that collectively. Wish we had that for Obamacare.

    And not disagreeing with the rhetoric you sited, but it's just that rhetoric. Cut through that. How were the republicans given a chance? Obama and Pelosi rammed a 2,000 page bill through without allowing anyone to read it. Nice revisionist history in your part.
    Because during negotiations the repubs failed to offer alternatives, support or anything that would result in a final product or victory for Obama. Even after he agreed to address their concerns. They failed. Because all they were concerned about was seeing him fail.

    Why is it that all of our allies have universal health care? Is it really that bad of a concept? It is the 21st century afterall.
    bolded part is true.

    republicans refused to be a part of the process, so we got what the dems were able to pass.
    "There is nothing to writing. All you do is sit down at a typewriter and bleed."- Hemingway

    "i'm not here to start the fire. i am here to fan the flames..."

    If you have never failed, you have never lived.
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin LouisPosts: 15,760

    what ever happened to earning what you have ? this country has been carrying freeloaders for waaayyyy to long now, watch them scatter like rats when it's time to support themselves.
    just in case....I'm not talking about disabled people, although there are many who play the system as disabled.

    what have you earned?

    someone gave you a chance. someone gave your parents or grandparents an opportunity. they did not create it out of thin air.

    the problem with the fox news crowd is this. they have been the lucky beneficiary from an opportunity from someone else. they were given a chance to go a few rungs up the ladder. now these very same people want to pull the ladder up behind them. dick move. but hey, if i got mine, screw everyone else, right?
    "There is nothing to writing. All you do is sit down at a typewriter and bleed."- Hemingway

    "i'm not here to start the fire. i am here to fan the flames..."

    If you have never failed, you have never lived.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 10,290
    mace1229 said:

    mace1229 said:

    mace1229 said:

    what ever happened to earning what you have ? this country has been carrying freeloaders for waaayyyy to long now, watch them scatter like rats when it's time to support themselves.
    just in case....I'm not talking about disabled people, although there are many who play the system as disabled.

    and "earning what you have" only makes sense/is fair if we all started at zero. we don't. inequality starts at conception.
    some people work hard enough to leave something for their kid's...is that a problem ?

    ugh. obviously not. not even close.

    let's say you were born into a family of poverty, STILL A US CITIZEN, and no matter how hard you worked, how hard you sacrificed, how many jobs you had to maintain so your kids could merely eat......you think you deserve LESS healthcare than someone who was born into a middle class family who wants for nothing?
    The problem is assigning people things they deserve. Sure, everyone "deserves" healthcare. And the guy with a 500k job probably doesn't deserve that any more than the guy who makes only 50k and in most cases only received those opportunities because he was born into a class that allowed him a good education and better opportunities.
    The problem with the current system is they are forcing healthy people to pay for more than they need, and forcing wealthier people to pay more than their share. If we level the playing field completely then that destroys the American system. Who's going to start the next billion dollar business by working 80 hours a week that eventually employs thousands, if only to have your success taken and given away?
    The biggest benefactors of the new healthcare system are the insurance companies themselves. This system is a total scam. Only very few actually benefit from it, and those would be anyone who has month or even year long treatments for serious illnesses. Even small doctors offices have to hire a full time employee just to manage healthcare stuff, and that cost is passed on to me. Except my wife's doctor, who just got tired of dealing with it and send us the bill and make us spend weeks or months fighting with insurance to get anything covered.
    If you find a doctor who accepts cash payments, its a third of what they bill insurance. Instead of paying insurance $1500/month to cover a family of 4, that money can be put towards a cash visit at just a fraction of the cost. And even a major medical incident would only cost $3-5000 without insurance (that insurance would send a bill for 20k for, making you think you got a great deal) that would be covered in just 2 or 3 months of not paying these ridiculous premiums.
    So why does AHA get the blame for this? Because the costs have skyrocketed in the last 5 or 6 years since it has become a requirement. 6 years ago I had good health insurance I paid out of pocket myself for less than $150. I had $10 copays to see a doctor, which also covered x-rays if I needed it, lab work, etc. Now my single coworkers pay 3-4 times that. Families pay a combined total (employer contribution + employee cost) of $1500 a month, and if you actually use any of your insurance you get another bill for $200 just to see a doctor that sent in some blood work to get examined. In many cases our pharmacy co-pay is HIGHER than the out-of-pocket cost. My copay may be $60, when the medicine is actually only $40! When I complained to our company about this the only response I got was "It's always a good idea to ask for the out of pocket price."
    This NEVER happened before Obamacare.
    Its a total mess and a scam and the insurance is the biggest benefactor of the system.
    I wasn't arguing the merits of obamacare. I was arguing the merits of health care for all.
    I got a little side-tracked with my frustration.
    The problem with healthcare for all is many end up over paying, or paying for things they don't need or want. AHA even advertises that they need more healthy people to sign up to cover the cost of the unhealthy.
    How is it fair to make some healthy kid just out of school and probably will see the doctor once every few years pay the same cost as someone who's 70 and smoked their whole life? But without massive tax increases, that is the only plan so far to make it for all.
    You wouldn't make good drivers pay more to subsidize the cost of bad drivers, why should healthcare be different?
    I agree that it's not perfect. I too have my own issues with your example, but that's the sacrfiice you have to make in order for everyone to be covered. does it suck that some tax the system because of their own personal life choices? but if I am forced to make the choice between having to endure folks who tax the system or someone not being able to access care for a condition they got through no fault of their own, I choose the former, every single time.
    I would be much happier with a system that helped people with those conditions you were referring to. A sort of "major health issue" with a sort of "no fault of their own" clause.
    But that isn't the case. The bottom line is we (or I) are forced to pay significantly more than my share. It also affects our healthcare decisions when the costs is still so high even after paying ridiculous premiums that we have to debate weather to wait to take our sick child to the doctor now or try to wait it out.
    The problem with that is, it would mean you give the provider the ability to not cover that person because they ate one bag of cheetos in 1977.

    there would simply be too many loopholes for the insurres to claim it was the insured's fault. If you have a system like canada, if you are sick, you get help. I had abdominal pain on a friday morning. Went to my GP that day. He told me to go to the ER as I had appendicitis. I was in surgery that evening and back home on Saturday. The idea that americans have that Canadians die waiting for care simply is false. We wait for non-life threatening things, like MRI's for joint problems, or a dermatologist appt for itchy skin, etc. But you will not die waiting for heart bypass surgery.

    www.headstonesband.com
    www.the-watchmen.com
    www.thehip.com
  • ^^^
    I agree with you once again often :smirk:
    EdsonNascimento up here we all agree that no matter what if you need healthcare you will receive the best no matter your situation.
    We are all human.

    I'm not sure where up here is, but if it's Canada (maybe you meant heaven?), then you are wrong. Why can people buy supplemental plans that get them better access to care? If everyone got the best, that would be unnecessary. No?
    Missed this.

    I know what you're saying but as a regular citizen up here and the only thing that I get frustrated with sometimes are the wait times meaning (up to 45mins or so in a walk in clinic!) or a few hours at the ER we're doing pretty good.
    Aside from that if I get sick or injured I will receive an equal level of care as a billionaire would who chose not to buy a private supplemental plan and that care would be outstanding and free.
    But, you qualified that. So, the Billionaire who CHOSE not to didn't get access to better care, but what about the Billionaire who did CHOOSE? (not sure the example needed to be a Billionaire, but since that's where you started) You said - everyone receives the BEST no matter the situation. Well, I think with your qualified statement you just proved your hypothesis 100% wrong.
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • It's a mess because republicans have sabotaged it. From day one. They even opposed pieces that they previously supported. All to "see this president fail." And they still don't have a solution other than, "let the market decide." Which isn't a solution.

    How,did they sabotage it? By not writing a blank check? Good for them.
    Republicans in congress, rather than work with Obama, fought it tooth and nail, the idea of universal care. Rather than be part of the process, they screamed death panels and opposed compromise they previously supported. Then republican states barred the expansion of Medicare as an alternative option. And still they have no plan. None.

    Prior to Obamacare, my premiums and copays increased by double digit %'s year after year after year. The only times they didn't is when I was a union member and collectively we spoke up and since passage, my premiums increased in single % digits and have stayed flat for the past two years. But then again, I work in a state that embraced romneycare from day one and it's what?, only been a decade? And yes, I get excellent care.

    So, what's Trump's solution? Here's a clue, he doesn't have one.
    Well, if you look at HealthyIndiana you start to get an idea. Ryan has put forth some ideas too. It's not necessarily trumps job to come up with a solution. Oh for the days when congress was the legislature.

    Is your plan on the exchanges?

    I've done union employee benefits. You guys were giving up other stuff to maintain those things, it's a choice, which is fine. You made that collectively. Wish we had that for Obamacare.

    And not disagreeing with the rhetoric you sited, but it's just that rhetoric. Cut through that. How were the republicans given a chance? Obama and Pelosi rammed a 2,000 page bill through without allowing anyone to read it. Nice revisionist history in your part.
    Because during negotiations the repubs failed to offer alternatives, support or anything that would result in a final product or victory for Obama. Even after he agreed to address their concerns. They failed. Because all they were concerned about was seeing him fail.

    Why is it that all of our allies have universal health care? Is it really that bad of a concept? It is the 21st century afterall.
    bolded part is true.

    republicans refused to be a part of the process, so we got what the dems were able to pass.
    What negotiation? There was a 2,000+ page bill shoved down our throats without anyone reading it (a fact nobody has disputed). Then they got to choose the color of the curtains. Nice try.
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
Sign In or Register to comment.