Should Betsy DeVos be confirmed as Secretary of Education?

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  • tbergstbergs Posts: 2,597
    unsung said:

    Ok, so get rid of it.

    I remember those standardized tests. Everyone filled in the circles ABCD, repeat. Nobody cared.

    We are falling behind in the world, it isn't because of aome yokel in Texas wanted to talk about the Bible. It is because of an overburdened system that has no grasp of reality. All of the Obama policies were illegally created, they bypassed Congress. It is a failure.

    Hmm, that's a bit of an over generalization. Maybe the slacker kids who were already behind or failing did that. I sure didn't, but I can tell you what happened with the majority of the group you are describing; HS grad if lucky and no college degree. The ACT and SAT must be other dumb tests. It also depends on how the teachers present the material and tests. You need to have a way to measure progress en masse. I don't think it's a perfect system and isn't an ideal form of assessment for all students, but it can give an overall picture of the knowledge base.

    What illegally created policies are you referring to?
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • riotgrlriotgrl LOUISVILLEPosts: 1,809
    No
    But we're comparing apples and oranges. The nations that we are typically held up against pick and choose which kids move on and are tested. Many nations track kids - either college bound or vocational education. The US requires all kids to be college ready. We're starting to see the shift back to college OR vocational training but it will be another 10 years before we see that fully implemented and see results.

    I completely disagree with your assessment that we're not falling behind because of Bible teaching. These other nations implement national standards that all students learn. When standards vary in the US in regards to teaching then that does put us behind because we are not matching up like standards.
    Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?

    Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...

    I AM MINE
  • a5pja5pj Hershey PAPosts: 3,080
    No
    Kat said:
    sounds about right, sigh. Maybe people who support her will start caring when their kids are denied services. Or they are forced to move to another district that doesn't teach religion as fact...
    Wouldn't it be funny if the world ended in 2010, with lots of fire?
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  • a5pja5pj Hershey PAPosts: 3,080
    No

    a5pj said:

    a5pj said:

    my2hands said:

    I know there are some people in here that work in the education field, I know at least 1 is a teacher. First I would like to thank you, you are appreciated.

    What ate your thoughts on Devos?

    As for all the IDEA hysteria -- talk about gross over-regulation paralyzing the productivity of the workforce-- translate -- keeping good teachers from helping kids. Honestly, I don't even refer kids to special ed anymore. If I suspect a kid has a learning disability, I help the kid on my own and leave the fucking federal government out of it. I haven't seen a single special educator do anything special that I can't do myself to help an LD child learn. IDEA is a joke in so many ways, but I'll leave it there. I don't want my post to be mile long
    Well, not to get into a huge debate about special ed and it's effectiveness, but not referring students who you believe have a disability is going directly against child find. You could easily be opening yourself up to a lawsuit. You may be keeping the student from getting accommodations and protections that they need to learn and grow at the same rate as other "normal" students. There's a lot more to it than just going to see a special ed teacher, which I hope you know.

    I think it's awesome you are going above and beyond to help students who you think might have a disability, most don't, I wish more would. But it might be worth having a discussion with your school psychologist or director of special ed about your process.
    Dude, everytime I go to my sped department, they send me back and say "you haven't done your job." IDEA got an overhaul in 2004 -- in large part due to the over-diagnosis of minorities and students in poverty -- and since then, it's been a nightmare to get kids extra help from special ed. To even start the special ed process now, I have to document every single time I wipe a child''s ass for him. I don't have time for the paperwork, and they don't want to see the kids on their docket. It's fucked.
    Hey (wo)man?, I'm glad we can discuss this like adults.
    I deal with this every day from the sp ed side of it. And many teachers I work with feel the same way. I agree with you on IDEA and over diagnosis, but that's an issue above both our pay grades.
    As for "documenting every single time you wipe a child's ass", I understand your frustrations, but there are a few points to this:
    1. Many teachers just want "bad" or "difficult" students out of their class. So they don't have time to fill out paperwork that documents and shows what they did or didn't do.
    2. I'm sure you know of RTI / MTSS / Child Study. Interventions should be done before jumping to sp ed, which requires documentation and progress monitoring to show growth (or lack of). In medicine you take pills or do therapy before jumping to surgery right?
    3. I agree the paperwork for RTI can be lengthy. I recently shortened my schools from 10 to 2 pages (still have teachers refusing to do it). But it's there to make sure there aren't other issues. Example poor attendance is not sp ed.

    As for kids on their docket, not sure if you mean sp ed caseloads or kids to be tested. But you know educators are overworked and underpaid. In my position: don't waste my time bringing me kids with straight A's to test. And show me what you've tried before saying a kid needs special education. I don't have time to test every kid in the school. Teachers observations are important but I work on data. I already have a full caseload of students with severe disabilities to attend to. This is not saying I won't test a student that needs it.

    Another thing (which is I believe where you fall). You sound like a good teacher. Your students make progress and growth, disability or not. If the same student was with another teacher they'd probably need more help. So you probably get stuck with tougher kids (nice reward for being good right?) Happened to my Mom who was a teacher all the time, she got AU kids who with anyone else would need more AU support, but she worked hard for them and they grew. From a sp ed perspective that perfect Least Restrictive Environment and what's best for the student, but it's tough on the teacher. And the teacher should get more support then.

    Side note, dyslexia isn't a specific disability classification, but it is covered under a Specific Learning Disability in Reading if they are struggling.
    Thank you for your reply. It's always refreshing to hear from someone who actually understands what teaching really looks like.

    I do understand the special educator's caseload. The sped teachers in my English department have to use their sick leave to complete the required progress reports because they can't get them done during their paid work time. They have the most complicated teaching schedules in the school because of all the "highly qualified" regulations hamstringing the master schedule. They work in fear of litigation on a daily basis.

    It just shouldn't be this way, and my only point is that the federal government's involvement has only "guaranteed" one thing . . . cost taxpayers a ton of money to hire extra people to complete paperwork. Aside from helping the kids with severe and profound issues, I don't see that IDEA has "guaranteed" anything but that.
    Completely agree with you on the paperwork. That's one good thing Devos might do in reducing it. But I fear a lot of schools will use that as an excuse not to do the right thing for kids with disabilities.
    We'll have to get a beer at the next show and have a conversation about how to fix education. Rock on.
    Wouldn't it be funny if the world ended in 2010, with lots of fire?
    38 shows and counting...,
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  • CM189191CM189191 Minneapolis via ChicagoPosts: 2,874
    No
    Betsy DeVos orders school changes to reflect ‘Christian-private sector values’
    Citing her “overwhelming 111-0 Senate confirmation vote” as a mandate to “make our kids superber again,” Betsy DeVos has ordered sweeping changes to what American children are taught at school.
    WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16
  • tbergs said:

    unsung said:

    Ok, so get rid of it.

    I remember those standardized tests. Everyone filled in the circles ABCD, repeat. Nobody cared.

    We are falling behind in the world, it isn't because of aome yokel in Texas wanted to talk about the Bible. It is because of an overburdened system that has no grasp of reality. All of the Obama policies were illegally created, they bypassed Congress. It is a failure.

    Hmm, that's a bit of an over generalization. Maybe the slacker kids who were already behind or failing did that. I sure didn't, but I can tell you what happened with the majority of the group you are describing; HS grad if lucky and no college degree. The ACT and SAT must be other dumb tests. It also depends on how the teachers present the material and tests. You need to have a way to measure progress en masse. I don't think it's a perfect system and isn't an ideal form of assessment for all students, but it can give an overall picture of the knowledge base.

    What illegally created policies are you referring to?
    The only standardized tests that well-run private schools administer are the SAT/ACT and the AP/IB tests. How is it that graduates from top private schools get into and succeed at top colleges without a government written set of "standards"? Private educators prove everyday that government is not needed to educate our young people.

    I'm not suggesting we privatize all of our schools. I'm suggesting that there is a lot to learn from well-run private schools and the way they do business.
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 1,416

    tbergs said:

    unsung said:

    Ok, so get rid of it.

    I remember those standardized tests. Everyone filled in the circles ABCD, repeat. Nobody cared.

    We are falling behind in the world, it isn't because of aome yokel in Texas wanted to talk about the Bible. It is because of an overburdened system that has no grasp of reality. All of the Obama policies were illegally created, they bypassed Congress. It is a failure.

    Hmm, that's a bit of an over generalization. Maybe the slacker kids who were already behind or failing did that. I sure didn't, but I can tell you what happened with the majority of the group you are describing; HS grad if lucky and no college degree. The ACT and SAT must be other dumb tests. It also depends on how the teachers present the material and tests. You need to have a way to measure progress en masse. I don't think it's a perfect system and isn't an ideal form of assessment for all students, but it can give an overall picture of the knowledge base.

    What illegally created policies are you referring to?
    The only standardized tests that well-run private schools administer are the SAT/ACT and the AP/IB tests. How is it that graduates from top private schools get into and succeed at top colleges without a government written set of "standards"? Private educators prove everyday that government is not needed to educate our young people.

    I'm not suggesting we privatize all of our schools. I'm suggesting that there is a lot to learn from well-run private schools and the way they do business.
    I think that is an unfair comparison. Public schools get money from the government, and people want to know the government has a way to make sure they are using their funds correctly-making sure teachers do their job and getting rid of the ones that don't. Tests are one of only a few ways to demonstrate this.
    Most private schools have more control on who they keep on, much easier to get rid of teachers. Schools are typically much smaller, so if you have a new math teacher and their math skills suck, get rid of the new math teacher.
    Demographics in a private school are night and day different. I used to think demographics wasn't a big deal until I spent some time in South-Central LA and in some nice school in San Diego. When you have kids who have parents that put their education very low on a list of priorities, those kids fail. That isn't the case in private schools, parents are spending lots of money to send their kids there. Its a completely different world for those kids.
    There are too many variables to think public schools should follow the private model and expect to be successful.
    Tests are not bad, even private schools and colleges give tests. Many colleges only report grades based solely on test scores. The difference is there seems to be a lack of thought put into a standardized test, and rarely do teachers see one that they think is of good quality. And a lack of trust in teachers forces administrators to keep test topics a secret, leaving teachers only to guess what will be on it. It could be, and should be done much better.
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 16,531

  • a5pja5pj Hershey PAPosts: 3,080
    No
    CM189191 said:

    Betsy DeVos orders school changes to reflect ‘Christian-private sector values’
    Citing her “overwhelming 111-0 Senate confirmation vote” as a mandate to “make our kids superber again,” Betsy DeVos has ordered sweeping changes to what American children are taught at school.

    That was awesome, completely alternatively true too!
    Wouldn't it be funny if the world ended in 2010, with lots of fire?
    38 shows and counting...,
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  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, ColoradoPosts: 3,815
    No
    CM189191 said:

    Betsy DeVos orders school changes to reflect ‘Christian-private sector values’
    Citing her “overwhelming 111-0 Senate confirmation vote” as a mandate to “make our kids superber again,” Betsy DeVos has ordered sweeping changes to what American children are taught at school.

    She better be careful or some of those underprivileged kids might make it to collage on axident.
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 5,713
    When were we supurber anyway? People seem to think there was this time in the past where we were all a bunch of kid geniuses. Must of been after it was socially acceptable to drop out after the 8th grade but before the improved graduation rates? Post-Sweathogs? Maybe when the proportion of college graduates was lower than it is now? Confused.
  • HesCalledDyerHesCalledDyer MarylandPosts: 9,050
    edited February 14
  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ONPosts: 6,858

    must *have....

    Ugh! Stop using the word "of" instead of "have," folks!!

    Agreed! The other one that irks me is "try and do something". It's "to"!
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

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  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 6,026
    benjs said:

    must *have....

    Ugh! Stop using the word "of" instead of "have," folks!!

    Agreed! The other one that irks me is "try and do something". It's "to"!
    "Do, or do not. There is no try and..."
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • Hmmm....http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/politics/devos-criticized-teachers-at-dc-school-she-visited-—-and-they-are-not-having-it/ar-AAn5amh?li=AAggv0m&ocid=mailsignout
    The teachers at Jefferson were sincere, genuine and dedicated, she said, they seemed to be in “receive mode.”
    “They’re waiting to be told what they have to do, and that’s not going to bring success to an individual child,” DeVos told a columnist for the conservative online publication Townhall. “You have to have teachers who are empowered to facilitate great teaching.” DeVos, who has no professional experience in public education, is an avowed proponent of voucher schools, charter schools, online schools and other alternatives to traditional public schools.

    Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not. Both ideas are overwhelming. AE
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 9,046
    No

    tbergs said:

    unsung said:

    Ok, so get rid of it.

    I remember those standardized tests. Everyone filled in the circles ABCD, repeat. Nobody cared.

    We are falling behind in the world, it isn't because of aome yokel in Texas wanted to talk about the Bible. It is because of an overburdened system that has no grasp of reality. All of the Obama policies were illegally created, they bypassed Congress. It is a failure.

    Hmm, that's a bit of an over generalization. Maybe the slacker kids who were already behind or failing did that. I sure didn't, but I can tell you what happened with the majority of the group you are describing; HS grad if lucky and no college degree. The ACT and SAT must be other dumb tests. It also depends on how the teachers present the material and tests. You need to have a way to measure progress en masse. I don't think it's a perfect system and isn't an ideal form of assessment for all students, but it can give an overall picture of the knowledge base.

    What illegally created policies are you referring to?
    The only standardized tests that well-run private schools administer are the SAT/ACT and the AP/IB tests. How is it that graduates from top private schools get into and succeed at top colleges without a government written set of "standards"? Private educators prove everyday that government is not needed to educate our young people.

    I'm not suggesting we privatize all of our schools. I'm suggesting that there is a lot to learn from well-run private schools and the way they do business.
    Part of the way they do business is to eliminate special needs students so they look extra well-run.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    rgambs said:

    tbergs said:

    unsung said:

    Ok, so get rid of it.

    I remember those standardized tests. Everyone filled in the circles ABCD, repeat. Nobody cared.

    We are falling behind in the world, it isn't because of aome yokel in Texas wanted to talk about the Bible. It is because of an overburdened system that has no grasp of reality. All of the Obama policies were illegally created, they bypassed Congress. It is a failure.

    Hmm, that's a bit of an over generalization. Maybe the slacker kids who were already behind or failing did that. I sure didn't, but I can tell you what happened with the majority of the group you are describing; HS grad if lucky and no college degree. The ACT and SAT must be other dumb tests. It also depends on how the teachers present the material and tests. You need to have a way to measure progress en masse. I don't think it's a perfect system and isn't an ideal form of assessment for all students, but it can give an overall picture of the knowledge base.

    What illegally created policies are you referring to?
    The only standardized tests that well-run private schools administer are the SAT/ACT and the AP/IB tests. How is it that graduates from top private schools get into and succeed at top colleges without a government written set of "standards"? Private educators prove everyday that government is not needed to educate our young people.

    I'm not suggesting we privatize all of our schools. I'm suggesting that there is a lot to learn from well-run private schools and the way they do business.
    Part of the way they do business is to eliminate special needs students so they look extra well-run.
    have a nice hot cup of paranoia coffee with those frosted flakes ! LOL !!!!!

    it dosen't matter to me what a man dose for a living you understand..
    as long as his interest's don't conflict with mine.
  • mfc2006mfc2006 PDX--->KCPosts: 29,853
    No
    Jason P said:


    HAHA!
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  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 9,046
    No

    rgambs said:

    tbergs said:

    unsung said:

    Ok, so get rid of it.

    I remember those standardized tests. Everyone filled in the circles ABCD, repeat. Nobody cared.

    We are falling behind in the world, it isn't because of aome yokel in Texas wanted to talk about the Bible. It is because of an overburdened system that has no grasp of reality. All of the Obama policies were illegally created, they bypassed Congress. It is a failure.

    Hmm, that's a bit of an over generalization. Maybe the slacker kids who were already behind or failing did that. I sure didn't, but I can tell you what happened with the majority of the group you are describing; HS grad if lucky and no college degree. The ACT and SAT must be other dumb tests. It also depends on how the teachers present the material and tests. You need to have a way to measure progress en masse. I don't think it's a perfect system and isn't an ideal form of assessment for all students, but it can give an overall picture of the knowledge base.

    What illegally created policies are you referring to?
    The only standardized tests that well-run private schools administer are the SAT/ACT and the AP/IB tests. How is it that graduates from top private schools get into and succeed at top colleges without a government written set of "standards"? Private educators prove everyday that government is not needed to educate our young people.

    I'm not suggesting we privatize all of our schools. I'm suggesting that there is a lot to learn from well-run private schools and the way they do business.
    Part of the way they do business is to eliminate special needs students so they look extra well-run.
    have a nice hot cup of paranoia coffee with those frosted flakes ! LOL !!!!!

    Where is your mind at? Did you think I meant that they kill the kids or something?
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 11,013
    No

    Hmmm....http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/politics/devos-criticized-teachers-at-dc-school-she-visited-—-and-they-are-not-having-it/ar-AAn5amh?li=AAggv0m&ocid=mailsignout
    The teachers at Jefferson were sincere, genuine and dedicated, she said, they seemed to be in “receive mode.”
    “They’re waiting to be told what they have to do, and that’s not going to bring success to an individual child,” DeVos told a columnist for the conservative online publication Townhall. “You have to have teachers who are empowered to facilitate great teaching.” DeVos, who has no professional experience in public education, is an avowed proponent of voucher schools, charter schools, online schools and other alternatives to traditional public schools.

    and Jefferson school shot back with 11 or so tweets extolling the virtures of their teachers. then devos claimed her comments were in relation to government overreach and how teachers would get more freedom to teach without government intervention.

    nice try at spinning it, idiot. the proof is in your quote.
    Gimli 1993
    Winnipeg 2005
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    St. Paul 2014
  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, ColoradoPosts: 3,815
    No
    DeVos Slammed as 'Totally Nuts' for Calling HBCUs 'Pioneers of School Choice'
    http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/devos-slammed-totally-nuts-calling-hbcus-pioneers-school-choice-n726856
  • Cliffy6745Cliffy6745 Posts: 23,941
    No
    Betsy DeVos currently getting booed and heckled as she gives a commencement speech
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 5,713
    Betsy DeVos currently getting booed and heckled as she gives a commencement speech
    What school?
  • Cliffy6745Cliffy6745 Posts: 23,941
    No
    Betsy DeVos currently getting booed and heckled as she gives a commencement speech
    What school?
    Some random school in Florida.  

    Saw a video a little while ago but can't seem to dig it up.  Straight up drowning her out.


  • OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MNPosts: 429
    HBCU School that's not Liberty, Grand Canyon, or Bob Jones U has DeVos give the commencement speech and does not expect a negative reaction?  Dumb.

    DeVos goes to HBCU school that's not Liberty, Grand Canyon, or Bob Jones U to give a commencement speech and does not expect a negative reaction?  Dumb.


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  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 36,749
    No
    Yeah, what idiotic university administrator thought that would be a good idea???? What respectable university administrator wouldn't hate her? I'd be very concerned about whoever was behind the invite!
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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