Is this BullMoose pre-order of Live broadcasts 94-96 vinyl legit?

Weston1283

BullMoose is a pretty legitimate and reliable seller. Has anyone heard of this before?

jervin007

Just showed up on my twitter feed. I assume its a bootleg. Might still pick it up though

Dr. Delight

Bootleg

epie

I've seen this advertised awhile back and appears it will now have availability from several outlets starting at $79.99 in addition to Bull Moose in 2017. Would love to get some feedback on the sound quality and a little more info. on the back story to these if anyone has it before pulling the trigger.

Tim Simmons

They have all been released individually. They sound fine, but the sourcing is unknown (Outside of it being a radio broadcast recording). Not worth $80.

Pretty sure its the PJ tunes from the first self pollution broadcast, a discs worth of Atlanta 94 tracks and that Chicago 92 show.

You can buy them individually not on clear and with different cover art. Personally I'm waiting to see if PJ will press the whole Atlanta Broadcast someday.

epie

Tim Simmons said:

They have all been released individually. They sound fine, but the sourcing is unknown (Outside of it being a radio broadcast recording). Not worth $80.

Pretty sure its the PJ tunes from the first self pollution broadcast, a discs worth of Atlanta 94 tracks and that Chicago 92 show.

You can buy them individually not on clear and with different cover art. Personally I'm waiting to see if PJ will press the whole Atlanta Broadcast someday.

Thanks for the explanation.

mcgruff10

Tim Simmons said:

They have all been released individually. They sound fine, but the sourcing is unknown (Outside of it being a radio broadcast recording). Not worth $80.

Pretty sure its the PJ tunes from the first self pollution broadcast, a discs worth of Atlanta 94 tracks and that Chicago 92 show.

You can buy them individually not on clear and with different cover art. Personally I'm waiting to see if PJ will press the whole Atlanta Broadcast someday.

Hopefully they release any other 94 show besides Atlanta 2 which happens to be the most well known/owned pj bootleg of all time.

tempo_n_groove

Shouldn't this be shut down?

Sarava

That's pricey for 3 LPs

Zod

tempo_n_groove said:

Shouldn't this be shut down?

No. Things like this are legally produced in Europe. I don't quite understand it, but apparently they don't have as harsh a view on copyright as the United States does.

It reminds me of CD's here in Canada in the 90's. It was illegal to make and sell bootlegs in Canada, but it wasn't illegal to import them. Thus as long as they were made somewhere else they were free to be sold here. I think it's the same for these recordings. They're legal where they're being made and it's not illegal to import them.

on2legs

Zod said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Shouldn't this be shut down?

No. Things like this are legally produced in Europe. I don't quite understand it, but apparently they don't have as harsh a view on copyright as the United States does.

It reminds me of CD's here in Canada in the 90's. It was illegal to make and sell bootlegs in Canada, but it wasn't illegal to import them. Thus as long as they were made somewhere else they were free to be sold here. I think it's the same for these recordings. They're legal where they're being made and it's not illegal to import them.

Not to go all law and order because I couldn't care less but they're not legal to import or sell in the US if they violate a copyright. No different than bogus Rolex watches or fake handbags. I think they get away with it because it's not a big enough market for them to be worth a concerted effort to stop it.

Travelar

What pisses me off about these types of releases are that they are labeled as "import" in most music stores (at least the ones I go to). The import label adds about 20-30% cost increase just because it's an import, which I guess is considered exotic. I'd rather they clearly mark these as bootleg or unofficial. But then I guess they would have to admit to selling crap.

Weston1283

I know most of these are bootlegs, I just didn't think a place like BullMoose would advertise a bootleg though. That's why I had questions about this particular one.

Zod

on2legs said:

Zod said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Shouldn't this be shut down?

No. Things like this are legally produced in Europe. I don't quite understand it, but apparently they don't have as harsh a view on copyright as the United States does.

It reminds me of CD's here in Canada in the 90's. It was illegal to make and sell bootlegs in Canada, but it wasn't illegal to import them. Thus as long as they were made somewhere else they were free to be sold here. I think it's the same for these recordings. They're legal where they're being made and it's not illegal to import them.

Not to go all law and order because I couldn't care less but they're not legal to import or sell in the US if they violate a copyright. No different than bogus Rolex watches or fake handbags. I think they get away with it because it's not a big enough market for them to be worth a concerted effort to stop it.

It is different. The live recordings aren't illegal. They are legal in europe. It's a loophole in the copyright law where recordings (once they're something like 20 to 25 years old) can fall in the public domain. It means these little record companies can legally put them on vinyl as long as they pay the applicable royalties. They are unauthorized but they aren't illegal. They can't use official band records/soundboards but they can use fan sources, radio sources, tv sources etc... Stuff the band doesn't own directly. I think it's more of a grey area if importing a completely legal record made in europe is illegal to import into the US. You are right in that it's such a small nice market it probably won't result lawsuits to find out. I wanted to point out that most of these records (at least the live ones) are actually be made legally, because other countries don't have as strict copyright laws as the US.

This is a pretty good article which has some good info on how it works and why it's legal (mostly):

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwig5NGV54DRAhUhJ8AKHS2BAmMQFggsMAM&url=http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/932-the-new-explosion-of-bootleg-vinyl/&usg=AFQjCNEX59AmboOIGgsjeuU4P3JOIk3ylQ&sig2=CrlsRSJ7RlFOqCKNmnyKeQ

edit: I should note that bootlegs of the official records are absolutely illegal bootlegs. It's the ones that come from stuff like FM recordings that are unauthorized but not made illegally.

RoleModelsinBlood31

Travelar said:

What pisses me off about these types of releases are that they are labeled as "import" in most music stores (at least the ones I go to). The import label adds about 20-30% cost increase just because it's an import, which I guess is considered exotic. I'd rather they clearly mark these as bootleg or unofficial. But then I guess they would have to admit to selling crap.

I was at a giant vinyl convention about 6 months ago and a table was selling tons of bootlegs. I couldn't care less that he was selling them, (I mean I sell/buy weed and that's not legit where I am either so who am I to judge) but he was caking them all "imports." He was saying that they're the same album and there's no difference, they're just made in Europe. I didn't feel like getting into it at the time so I just smiled and said no thanks to the $50 orange binaural he was slinging. But I swear every single thing he was selling was a bootleg.

on2legs

Zod said:

on2legs said:

Zod said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Shouldn't this be shut down?

No. Things like this are legally produced in Europe. I don't quite understand it, but apparently they don't have as harsh a view on copyright as the United States does.

It reminds me of CD's here in Canada in the 90's. It was illegal to make and sell bootlegs in Canada, but it wasn't illegal to import them. Thus as long as they were made somewhere else they were free to be sold here. I think it's the same for these recordings. They're legal where they're being made and it's not illegal to import them.

Not to go all law and order because I couldn't care less but they're not legal to import or sell in the US if they violate a copyright. No different than bogus Rolex watches or fake handbags. I think they get away with it because it's not a big enough market for them to be worth a concerted effort to stop it.

It is different. The live recordings aren't illegal. They are legal in europe. It's a loophole in the copyright law where recordings (once they're something like 20 to 25 years old) can fall in the public domain. It means these little record companies can legally put them on vinyl as long as they pay the applicable royalties. They are unauthorized but they aren't illegal. They can't use official band records/soundboards but they can use fan sources, radio sources, tv sources etc... Stuff the band doesn't own directly. I think it's more of a grey area if importing a completely legal record made in europe is illegal to import into the US. You are right in that it's such a small nice market it probably won't result lawsuits to find out. I wanted to point out that most of these records (at least the live ones) are actually be made legally, because other countries don't have as strict copyright laws as the US.

This is a pretty good article which has some good info on how it works and why it's legal (mostly):

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwig5NGV54DRAhUhJ8AKHS2BAmMQFggsMAM&url=http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/932-the-new-explosion-of-bootleg-vinyl/&usg=AFQjCNEX59AmboOIGgsjeuU4P3JOIk3ylQ&sig2=CrlsRSJ7RlFOqCKNmnyKeQ

edit: I should note that bootlegs of the official records are absolutely illegal bootlegs. It's the ones that come from stuff like FM recordings that are unauthorized but not made illegally.

I'm sure you're correct. I'm only talking about Bullmoose selling them here in the US. It's illegal and if anyone in customs cared about bootleg recordings they would get seized upon entering the country.

Zod

on2legs said:

I'm sure you're correct. I'm only talking about Bullmoose selling them here in the US. It's illegal and if anyone in customs cared about bootleg recordings they would get seized upon entering the country.

Except they're not technically bootlegs. They're legal unauthorized recordings. A bootleg is something created that's completely against the law and infringes on copyright. These new "Live" recordings aren't really bootlegs because they're made legally. Royalties are paid (or are supposed to be paid). So unlike the problem in the 90's where cd's were pressed illegally, and the bootleg industry got cracked down on. What you've got here is a product made in complete compliance with the copyright law in Europe and then exported to the US. Like the article say's it's a grey area. Not a big enough market to drag lawsuits through courts to get rulings on the legality of it. Definitely more of a grey area than a black/white area than what we were seeing with cd's in the 90s.

edit: It's all kind of moot though because it seems many record stores have no problems bringing in bootlegs of studio albums, and those are 100% illegal in either place.

cp3iverson

I consider the 3-5-98 melbourne boot as my unofficial Vault 7. Its a fun set to own.

MedozK

Zod said:

I should note that bootlegs of the official records are absolutely illegal bootlegs. It's the ones that come from stuff like FM recordings that are unauthorized but not made illegally.

This is it in a nutshell.

Travelar

RoleModelsinBlood31 said:

I was at a giant vinyl convention about 6 months ago and a table was selling tons of bootlegs. I couldn't care less that he was selling them, (I mean I sell/buy weed and that's not legit where I am either so who am I to judge) but he was caking them all "imports." He was saying that they're the same album and there's no difference, they're just made in Europe. I didn't feel like getting into it at the time so I just smiled and said no thanks to the $50 orange binaural he was slinging. But I swear every single thing he was selling was a bootleg.

This is the kind of guy that knows what he's selling is a bootleg. I'll give some consideration to my mom & pops shops. They might know, they might not. I assume someone doing the ordering knows what they are buying, but meh... If it's something cool and live, I might pick it up, but probably not. Especially if it's overpriced. Bootlegs of actual studio stuff though... ugh.

on2legs

Zod said:

on2legs said:

I'm sure you're correct. I'm only talking about Bullmoose selling them here in the US. It's illegal and if anyone in customs cared about bootleg recordings they would get seized upon entering the country.

Except they're not technically bootlegs. They're legal unauthorized recordings. A bootleg is something created that's completely against the law and infringes on copyright. These new "Live" recordings aren't really bootlegs because they're made legally. Royalties are paid (or are supposed to be paid). So unlike the problem in the 90's where cd's were pressed illegally, and the bootleg industry got cracked down on. What you've got here is a product made in complete compliance with the copyright law in Europe and then exported to the US. Like the article say's it's a grey area. Not a big enough market to drag lawsuits through courts to get rulings on the legality of it. Definitely more of a grey area than a black/white area than what we were seeing with cd's in the 90s.

edit: It's all kind of moot though because it seems many record stores have no problems bringing in bootlegs of studio albums, and those are 100% illegal in either place.

Zod said:

on2legs said:

I'm sure you're correct. I'm only talking about Bullmoose selling them here in the US. It's illegal and if anyone in customs cared about bootleg recordings they would get seized upon entering the country.

Except they're not technically bootlegs. They're legal unauthorized recordings. A bootleg is something created that's completely against the law and infringes on copyright. These new "Live" recordings aren't really bootlegs because they're made legally. Royalties are paid (or are supposed to be paid). So unlike the problem in the 90's where cd's were pressed illegally, and the bootleg industry got cracked down on. What you've got here is a product made in complete compliance with the copyright law in Europe and then exported to the US. Like the article say's it's a grey area. Not a big enough market to drag lawsuits through courts to get rulings on the legality of it. Definitely more of a grey area than a black/white area than what we were seeing with cd's in the 90s.

edit: It's all kind of moot though because it seems many record stores have no problems bringing in bootlegs of studio albums, and those are 100% illegal in either place.

Key word is supposed to pay royalties. I doubt they're doing that. Which would make them bootlegs.

Zod

on2legs said:

Key word is supposed to pay royalties. I doubt they're doing that. Which would make them bootlegs.

Seeing as they are pressed in Europe and they aren't a 3rd world country, wouldn't they get bombarded with cease and desist orders if they weren't releasing them illegally? Unless we know other wise, the recent wave of public live recordings aren't really bootlegs, because they aren't really illegal. I could see how they could be considered illegal, but it does appear that the small labels specializing in this stuff are adhering to the law.

To me bootleg means something both illegal and made without the bands permission. These European things only meet half that. They're legal but unauthorized recordings. I know the word bootleg gets used liberally (like PJ calls all their live albums bootlegs, but they aren't bootlegs). To me a bootleg is something illegal and against the law. Something made that is prohibited. These aren't.

I do think it's interesting how different countries have different takes on copyright (and different rules).

Horse2345

Pretty obvious they aren't illegal bootlegs. Do you really think businesses would freely advertise they were selling them if there was a chance they could get fined or shut down.

on2legs

Zod said:

on2legs said:

Key word is supposed to pay royalties. I doubt they're doing that. Which would make them bootlegs.

Seeing as they are pressed in Europe and they aren't a 3rd world country, wouldn't they get bombarded with cease and desist orders if they weren't releasing them illegally? Unless we know other wise, the recent wave of public live recordings aren't really bootlegs, because they aren't really illegal. I could see how they could be considered illegal, but it does appear that the small labels specializing in this stuff are adhering to the law.

To me bootleg means something both illegal and made without the bands permission. These European things only meet half that. They're legal but unauthorized recordings. I know the word bootleg gets used liberally (like PJ calls all their live albums bootlegs, but they aren't bootlegs). To me a bootleg is something illegal and against the law. Something made that is prohibited. These aren't.

I do think it's interesting how different countries have different takes on copyright (and different rules).

The article makes it pretty clear that while they might be legal to produce in Europe, they are still illegal here in the US. As previously stated, no one seems to bother to try and shut it down so businesses continue to import and sell them.

Read the part at the end about Sonic Youth's attorney sending cease and desist letters.

Zod

on2legs said:

The article makes it pretty clear that while they might be legal to produce in Europe, they are still illegal here in the US. As previously stated, no one seems to bother to try and shut it down so businesses continue to import and sell them.

Read the part at the end about Sonic Youth's attorney sending cease and desist letters.

Yah it's kind of a throwaway line... but I'm guessing you can't cease and desist the companies themselves as they aren't breaking laws. The article also doesn't really address the legality of importing the records into other countries. Royalties are paid (or at least no one has proof otherwise). It mentioned that even iTunes makes digital copies available outside the region in which they are made. I'm not sure how cut and dry the import/export is. Otherwise you could start walking that dangerous line of anything made outside your country, that's never been authorized for release in your country is an illegal bootleg (geographical copyright of analog items). That would be pretty messy and unfortunate. It's too bad I couldn't find a better article. This one touched on some things, but was also kind of a vague and only moderately helpful as to how the whole thing works.

Tim Simmons

The only reasonable solution is for Pearl Jam to flood the market with HQ vinyl bootlegs.

on2legs

Zod said:

on2legs said:

The article makes it pretty clear that while they might be legal to produce in Europe, they are still illegal here in the US. As previously stated, no one seems to bother to try and shut it down so businesses continue to import and sell them.

Read the part at the end about Sonic Youth's attorney sending cease and desist letters.

Yah it's kind of a throwaway line... but I'm guessing you can't cease and desist the companies themselves as they aren't breaking laws. The article also doesn't really address the legality of importing the records into other countries. Royalties are paid (or at least no one has proof otherwise). It mentioned that even iTunes makes digital copies available outside the region in which they are made. I'm not sure how cut and dry the import/export is. Otherwise you could start walking that dangerous line of anything made outside your country, that's never been authorized for release in your country is an illegal bootleg (geographical copyright of analog items). That would be pretty messy and unfortunate. It's too bad I couldn't find a better article. This one touched on some things, but was also kind of a vague and only moderately helpful as to how the whole thing works.

I think it actually says that technically the iTunes recordings should be restricted to Europe.

See here for more info on bootlegs on streaming sites:

community.pearljam.com/discussion/262286/tidal-has-live-pj-shows-92-95

Tim Simmons

I say slightly tongue in cheek (I'll always advocate for more vinyl shows), but them doing their own boots in 2000 and 2003 (I guess coupled with the start of the switch to digital music) really killed alot of the import market for their boots.

Zod

Tim Simmons said:

The only reasonable solution is for Pearl Jam to flood the market with HQ vinyl bootlegs.

They did do that once. Someone put out that really nice looking set of the Vegas show, and then in very short order, PJ announced it was the next vault. I thought that was pertty funny. Obviously we'd like to have Vault's of stuff where there aren't existing soundboard sources, but it is amusing to watch the band do something like that to combat it

mcgruff10

Zod said:

Tim Simmons said:

The only reasonable solution is for Pearl Jam to flood the market with HQ vinyl bootlegs.

They did do that once. Someone put out that really nice looking set of the Vegas show, and then in very short order, PJ announced it was the next vault. I thought that was pertty funny. Obviously we'd like to have Vault's of stuff where there aren't existing soundboard sources, but it is amusing to watch the band do something like that to combat it

with this thinking can someone put out a bootleg vinyl of randall's island night 2?

EchoesOnMars

Im at the point where I only want complete shows