Something about teacher's pay...

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  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 23,199
    There's the bell! See you all on the play ground! I'm outta here! :smiley:
    The reason I never give up hope is because everything is so basically hopeless.
    -Anne Lamott
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.



  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 40,534
    pjhawks said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    pjhawks said:

    mace1229 said:

    My principle just announced this week that we will have regular, mandatory staff meetings that begin at the end of our contractual day. How many other professions do that?
    My last school did that too, only it was even worse and was about 3 times a week for a while. And when a teacher couldn't make it for any reason, including daycare costs and having to pay overtime for it, they were written up.
    I'd like to see any other job sign a contract for 8-4, and then discipline you for only staying an extra half hour and leaving at 4:30 for picking up your kids since they don't pay you enough to afford overtime daycare, and yet still have people fighting for the company.

    lots. many have dinner meetings with clients, conferences, etc. after hours. as i stated before i know of no one who hasn't done work, asnwered emails and calls after stated work hours. it's just the way the world works today. there have been studies done about how it's not good that we are never 'off'' anymore.
    So you think 100% of working people work outside of work hours?? I know that many do this, but come on. And like you said, people SHOULDN'T be doing this.
    i couldn't get 100% of the people to say the sky is blue so i'd never say 100% for anything. In general though I think we work too many hours.
    Soooo... you think that teachers should be working too many hours for no extra pay? Or you don't?
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 8,515
    PJ_Soul said:

    It seems to me that pjhawks has a very specific (somewhat mysterious) kind of worker in mind and isn't willing to waver from that type while discussing this.

    maybe i just know a lot of people who work really fucking hard. i know no one who works strictly 9-5 in an office setting. most of who i know who work full time in an office are in by 7:00 or 7:30 and don't leave until at least 5:00 on weekdays.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 40,534
    edited August 2016
    pjhawks said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    It seems to me that pjhawks has a very specific (somewhat mysterious) kind of worker in mind and isn't willing to waver from that type while discussing this.

    maybe i just know a lot of people who work really fucking hard. i know no one who works strictly 9-5 in an office setting. most of who i know who work full time in an office are in by 7:00 or 7:30 and don't leave until at least 5:00 on weekdays.
    For no extra pay and for teacher salaries??? If so, they are chumps. (it's odd that you don't know anyone who works in a 9 - 5 office too btw. Well, I guess now you do. I work in a 9 - 5 office. If I work overtime I get PAID for it. Double time. As it should be). You're acting like it's a good thing that these people's employers are taking advantage of their employees.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    pjhawks said:

    Free said:

    Free, do you actually want to know why no teachers are discussing common core? It is because they are too busy defending themselves against your assertion that their careers are one big perkfest.

    Please explain how a week or more for Christmas break, bank holidays, thanksgiving, spring break, winter break, Snow days, and summer break are not perks. Anyone working in a professional Field don't get half of that off. Hawks and I are simply pointing that fact out with many people excusing it while also pointing out that it is a full-time job. With all that time off, and the full-time pay, pension and tenure the teachers in my state get at least, it deserves speculation. In other states were teachers get low pay, I am not saying they should, but comparing the time and days worked, the pay might be more in line.
    Yup. Correct. You... and one other person- pjhawks (who seems more moderate) are continuing with this assertion.

    I posted a model of comparison for you. I posted- twice now- the pay structures and typical work schedules- for teachers and nurses in a side by side format.

    You both have ignored the comparison which clearly shows nurses work the same amount of days and get paid more (much more in fact).

    As expressed, I am not begrudging nurses of anything- they deserve all they get and more. I posted it to squash your biased claim.
    you are in Canada. I know nothing about work rules or what goes on in Canada so i can't make any comment on nurses vs. teachers in Canda.
    Well let me tell you, neither nurse's nor teachers with full time jobs will struggle financially in Canada ... unless you reside in maybe Toronto or Vancouver and a few of the other large urban areas where housing cost are ridiculous.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 40,534
    edited August 2016
    lukin2006 said:

    pjhawks said:

    Free said:

    Free, do you actually want to know why no teachers are discussing common core? It is because they are too busy defending themselves against your assertion that their careers are one big perkfest.

    Please explain how a week or more for Christmas break, bank holidays, thanksgiving, spring break, winter break, Snow days, and summer break are not perks. Anyone working in a professional Field don't get half of that off. Hawks and I are simply pointing that fact out with many people excusing it while also pointing out that it is a full-time job. With all that time off, and the full-time pay, pension and tenure the teachers in my state get at least, it deserves speculation. In other states were teachers get low pay, I am not saying they should, but comparing the time and days worked, the pay might be more in line.
    Yup. Correct. You... and one other person- pjhawks (who seems more moderate) are continuing with this assertion.

    I posted a model of comparison for you. I posted- twice now- the pay structures and typical work schedules- for teachers and nurses in a side by side format.

    You both have ignored the comparison which clearly shows nurses work the same amount of days and get paid more (much more in fact).

    As expressed, I am not begrudging nurses of anything- they deserve all they get and more. I posted it to squash your biased claim.
    you are in Canada. I know nothing about work rules or what goes on in Canada so i can't make any comment on nurses vs. teachers in Canda.
    Well let me tell you, neither nurse's nor teachers with full time jobs will struggle financially in Canada ... unless you reside in maybe Toronto or Vancouver and a few of the other large urban areas where housing cost are ridiculous.
    Ummm, well the numbers of teachers and nurses in Toronto, Vancouver, and other major urban centres are extremely significant, and yeah, they are pretty much dirt poor in those places. But that isn't even the point of this conversation I thought. Don't teachers deserve more than just "not struggling"??
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 8,515
    PJ_Soul said:

    pjhawks said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    It seems to me that pjhawks has a very specific (somewhat mysterious) kind of worker in mind and isn't willing to waver from that type while discussing this.

    maybe i just know a lot of people who work really fucking hard. i know no one who works strictly 9-5 in an office setting. most of who i know who work full time in an office are in by 7:00 or 7:30 and don't leave until at least 5:00 on weekdays.
    For no extra pay and for teacher salaries??? If so, they are chumps. (it's odd that you don't know anyone who works in a 9 - 5 office too btw. Well, I guess now you do. I work in a 9 - 5 office. If I work overtime I get PAID for it. Double time. As it should be). You're acting like it's a good thing that these people's employers are taking advantage of their employees.
    no i don't know any salaried employees who work 9-5. and no they make more than teachers well because they work more days which is what the initial discussion was about. round and round we go :smiley:
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 40,534
    edited August 2016
    pjhawks said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    pjhawks said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    It seems to me that pjhawks has a very specific (somewhat mysterious) kind of worker in mind and isn't willing to waver from that type while discussing this.

    maybe i just know a lot of people who work really fucking hard. i know no one who works strictly 9-5 in an office setting. most of who i know who work full time in an office are in by 7:00 or 7:30 and don't leave until at least 5:00 on weekdays.
    For no extra pay and for teacher salaries??? If so, they are chumps. (it's odd that you don't know anyone who works in a 9 - 5 office too btw. Well, I guess now you do. I work in a 9 - 5 office. If I work overtime I get PAID for it. Double time. As it should be). You're acting like it's a good thing that these people's employers are taking advantage of their employees.
    no i don't know any salaried employees who work 9-5. and no they make more than teachers well because they work more days which is what the initial discussion was about. round and round we go :smiley:
    SMH. So wtf is your argument? That teachers should work too many hours and not get paid for working extra time, the way they do now? That's what your point is? And no comment on the employers taking advantage of your friends and family?
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • hedonisthedonist standing on the edge of foreverPosts: 19,147
    In CA (not sure of other states), salaried means exempt from OT. Double-edged sword as working extra here and there is balanced by being able to come in late or leave early on occasion. I make a decent living but am hourly, so while I'm willing to work extra as needed - and knowing I'll be paid time-and-a-half for that - I'm in the office at 8am and take off at 5:00. Definitely check and respond to emails off the clock, but that's my choice. I'd hate for it to be expected of me.
  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 8,515
    edited August 2016
    PJ_Soul said:

    pjhawks said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    pjhawks said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    It seems to me that pjhawks has a very specific (somewhat mysterious) kind of worker in mind and isn't willing to waver from that type while discussing this.

    maybe i just know a lot of people who work really fucking hard. i know no one who works strictly 9-5 in an office setting. most of who i know who work full time in an office are in by 7:00 or 7:30 and don't leave until at least 5:00 on weekdays.
    For no extra pay and for teacher salaries??? If so, they are chumps. (it's odd that you don't know anyone who works in a 9 - 5 office too btw. Well, I guess now you do. I work in a 9 - 5 office. If I work overtime I get PAID for it. Double time. As it should be). You're acting like it's a good thing that these people's employers are taking advantage of their employees.
    no i don't know any salaried employees who work 9-5. and no they make more than teachers well because they work more days which is what the initial discussion was about. round and round we go :smiley:
    SMH. So wtf is your argument? That teachers should work too many hours and not get paid for working extra time, the way they do now? That's what your point is? And no comment on the employers taking advantage of your friends and family?
    ugh for the 20th time. original post had a study that teachers get paid 77% of what other college degree professionals get paid...yet they work only around 77% of the number of days or those professionals. rinse, repeat :confused: fuck for the 2nd time i give up
    Post edited by pjhawks on
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 40,534
    pjhawks said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    pjhawks said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    pjhawks said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    It seems to me that pjhawks has a very specific (somewhat mysterious) kind of worker in mind and isn't willing to waver from that type while discussing this.

    maybe i just know a lot of people who work really fucking hard. i know no one who works strictly 9-5 in an office setting. most of who i know who work full time in an office are in by 7:00 or 7:30 and don't leave until at least 5:00 on weekdays.
    For no extra pay and for teacher salaries??? If so, they are chumps. (it's odd that you don't know anyone who works in a 9 - 5 office too btw. Well, I guess now you do. I work in a 9 - 5 office. If I work overtime I get PAID for it. Double time. As it should be). You're acting like it's a good thing that these people's employers are taking advantage of their employees.
    no i don't know any salaried employees who work 9-5. and no they make more than teachers well because they work more days which is what the initial discussion was about. round and round we go :smiley:
    SMH. So wtf is your argument? That teachers should work too many hours and not get paid for working extra time, the way they do now? That's what your point is? And no comment on the employers taking advantage of your friends and family?
    ugh for the 20th time. original post had a study that teachers get paid 77% of what other college degree professionals get paid...yet they work only around 77% of the number of days or those professionals. rinse, repeat :confused: fuck for the 2nd time i give up
    Yeah, I read it the first time, no need to repeat. But then the whole conversation happened to show that this theory doesn't work when you look at reality ... so that makes no difference to you I guess.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    PJ_Soul said:

    lukin2006 said:

    pjhawks said:

    Free said:

    Free, do you actually want to know why no teachers are discussing common core? It is because they are too busy defending themselves against your assertion that their careers are one big perkfest.

    Please explain how a week or more for Christmas break, bank holidays, thanksgiving, spring break, winter break, Snow days, and summer break are not perks. Anyone working in a professional Field don't get half of that off. Hawks and I are simply pointing that fact out with many people excusing it while also pointing out that it is a full-time job. With all that time off, and the full-time pay, pension and tenure the teachers in my state get at least, it deserves speculation. In other states were teachers get low pay, I am not saying they should, but comparing the time and days worked, the pay might be more in line.
    Yup. Correct. You... and one other person- pjhawks (who seems more moderate) are continuing with this assertion.

    I posted a model of comparison for you. I posted- twice now- the pay structures and typical work schedules- for teachers and nurses in a side by side format.

    You both have ignored the comparison which clearly shows nurses work the same amount of days and get paid more (much more in fact).

    As expressed, I am not begrudging nurses of anything- they deserve all they get and more. I posted it to squash your biased claim.
    you are in Canada. I know nothing about work rules or what goes on in Canada so i can't make any comment on nurses vs. teachers in Canda.
    Well let me tell you, neither nurse's nor teachers with full time jobs will struggle financially in Canada ... unless you reside in maybe Toronto or Vancouver and a few of the other large urban areas where housing cost are ridiculous.
    Ummm, well the numbers of teachers and nurses in Toronto, Vancouver, and other major urban centres are extremely significant, and yeah, they are pretty much dirt poor in those places. But that isn't even the point of this conversation I thought. Don't teachers deserve more than just "not struggling"??
    Thee only reason they would struggle in those areas is because of the ridiculous housing prices ... my sister lives in TO is a teacher and is doing well and owns her own property and is single. We all deserve more than not struggling, every person who gets off their off their ass and goes to work for a living deserve not to struggle ... unfortunately thats not the case...
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • pjhawks said:

    pjhawks said:

    And kids need time to be kids. You adults need to shake your heads if you think kids should be in school over the summer.

    Were your childhoods that disappointing? Yikes.

    no one has advocated that. it's really not this hard to follow the discussion. teachers work less and get paid less but apparently pointing that out is somehow wrong.
    Still waiting, Hawks.

    You're fraudulent in this discussion.
    well my response is above but ill repeat it as maybe the internet doesn't connect as fast up north. your example was in canada. I know nothing about Canadian business or how things work up there other than you have great hockery and great beer. i don't feel i can comment on Canadian teachers vs. nurses.
    I would make the bold assertion that the comparison I presented to you for Canadian teachers and nurses is congruent with the US.

    If you can recall correctly, nurses made nearly $20,000 more per year than teachers for the same amount of days worked. Here's where I'll get bold: I would speculate that discrepancy is even larger in the US.

    In either scenario, your unresearched 'hunch' is, as I and others have mentioned, poorly constructed and successfully debunked. Cling to it as much as you want, but it's wrong.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 40,534
    edited August 2016
    lukin2006 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    lukin2006 said:

    pjhawks said:

    Free said:

    Free, do you actually want to know why no teachers are discussing common core? It is because they are too busy defending themselves against your assertion that their careers are one big perkfest.

    Please explain how a week or more for Christmas break, bank holidays, thanksgiving, spring break, winter break, Snow days, and summer break are not perks. Anyone working in a professional Field don't get half of that off. Hawks and I are simply pointing that fact out with many people excusing it while also pointing out that it is a full-time job. With all that time off, and the full-time pay, pension and tenure the teachers in my state get at least, it deserves speculation. In other states were teachers get low pay, I am not saying they should, but comparing the time and days worked, the pay might be more in line.
    Yup. Correct. You... and one other person- pjhawks (who seems more moderate) are continuing with this assertion.

    I posted a model of comparison for you. I posted- twice now- the pay structures and typical work schedules- for teachers and nurses in a side by side format.

    You both have ignored the comparison which clearly shows nurses work the same amount of days and get paid more (much more in fact).

    As expressed, I am not begrudging nurses of anything- they deserve all they get and more. I posted it to squash your biased claim.
    you are in Canada. I know nothing about work rules or what goes on in Canada so i can't make any comment on nurses vs. teachers in Canda.
    Well let me tell you, neither nurse's nor teachers with full time jobs will struggle financially in Canada ... unless you reside in maybe Toronto or Vancouver and a few of the other large urban areas where housing cost are ridiculous.
    Ummm, well the numbers of teachers and nurses in Toronto, Vancouver, and other major urban centres are extremely significant, and yeah, they are pretty much dirt poor in those places. But that isn't even the point of this conversation I thought. Don't teachers deserve more than just "not struggling"??
    Thee only reason they would struggle in those areas is because of the ridiculous housing prices ... my sister lives in TO is a teacher and is doing well and owns her own property and is single. We all deserve more than not struggling, every person who gets off their off their ass and goes to work for a living deserve not to struggle ... unfortunately thats not the case...
    As I live in Vancouver, I know why people struggle here, and it's not only because of housing prices, but that is a huge part of it. I completely agree that anyone who works full time, be they teachers, lawyers, or ditch diggers, deserve not to struggle. But then I think some professions deserve more. Teachers do not get as much as they deserve IMO, because of the work they do, their importance in our society, and the education levels that the work now demands (which is generally the masters level). As I said earlier in the thread, I think their salaries should START at about $70K and go up from there (btw, not sure when your sister bought her property, but there is no way anyone in Vancouver is buying any property on a teacher's salary. Not unless someone gives them a massive down payment or something).
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 14,227
    pjhawks said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    Thank you.
    This is obviously veering off-topic now, but just want to mention that it is always disheartening to see that a lot of people still have an old-fashioned view of unions that seem to have been built sometime between 1950 and 1985.

    again maybe in Canada it is different but here in the US unions have become a lot more about protecting bad employees than doing good for good employees. It's a shame too because unions can be and are important. they've just gone too far.

    pjhawks said:

    jeffbr said:

    pjhawks said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    pjhawks said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    pjhawks said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    Free said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    A lot of professions offer "tenure" in one form or another. It's just not called tenure.

    As I mentioned already, that time off for teachers is needed. Otherwise the system would be stuffed with way overstressed teachers who would be rendered ineffective. That kind of work can't be maintained at a reasonable level constantly for the entire year. They'd start having mental breakdowns, stress leave would skyrocket. You try spending 5 days a week stuck in a room with 30+ of other people's kids and see how you feel.

    So teaching is the only overly stressed job is that what you're saying? Because anyone working long hours 50+ or more is prone to burn out. I've been there and I worked in marketing.

    Please tell me which professions offer tenure other than teaching.
    Why would you think that's what I'm saying?? I never hinted that that is what I was saying, what a strange leap for you to take. But teaching is the only profession where someone spend the whole day with so many kids. Working 50 hours at a desk isn't not in any way comparable to spending days with a room full of children and trying to actually teach them things and trying to make them decent people (often against all odds given their home lives). I don't know why you keep comparing office jobs with teaching. It makes no sense.... Add to that the unbelievable burden that parents have been allowed to become on teachers.... I'd take 50+ hours a week in marketing any day. I barely know how teachers do it.

    Uh, ever heard of seniority??? It amounts to the same thing in many industries.
    seniority vs. tenure is not close the same thing. once you have tenure as a teacher it is almost impossible to get fired. i know many people in 'senior' positions in business who lost their jobs. not equivalent...try again.
    Having a senior position and having seniority is not the same thing. It's almost impossible to get fired in any union without very good cause and only through progressive discipline, just like with teachers. A lot of unions around.
    not a lot of professions with college degrees are unionized (again back to the original study presented in the OP). almost none in business positions. try again.
    Do you know how idiotic that "try again" thing is?
    Anyway, TONS of professions that require degrees are unionized. Ever heard of universities? This university educated person who works at one has. I'm union and so is every single administrator and professor in every university in Canada. And so are teachers. All university educated. And so are engineers, city administrators, and so on and so and so on. I am aware that private businesses are not union.
    as i stated above i have no idea how it works in Canada. Here in the U.S. teachers and nurses are the only people i know who have college degrees who work in their field of study and are in unions. i'm sure i'm missing others but no one i know of.

    and the original study posted in the original post refers to teachers vs. other professionals in America. thanks for staying on topic though.

    me saying try again is just to encourage you and others to keep trying to discredit the facts i've presented in regards to the original study presented in the op. no one has been able to do it yet.

    so just for you...try again :rock_on:
    Since the aviation industry is big in my area I'll name one - SPEEA (Society of Professional Engineering Employees in Aerospace). They are a local union affiliated with the international aerospace union called IFPTE (International Federation of Professional and Technical Engineers). College educated and degreed aerospace engineers.
    do they get up to 70 extra days off per year?
    I'll try some math here....

    Yes teachers are contracted to 180-190 days a year which puts them at 50-70 (unpaid) days less then other professionals.
    However, as many teachers on here and elsewhere will tell you......they are unable to get the work done within the contractually allotted time. Therefore they put in an unpaid 10-20 hours per week. Take average of 15 unpaid hours per school week for 37 weeks means they work an extra 555 unpaid hours per school year. Divide by the average of an 8 hour work day and you get roughly 69.5 unpaid days per year.
    So there's your 50-70 days.

    Do the math
    If you can
    yup cause teachers are the only ones who ever work past their regularly scheduled hours. seriously? come on dude. almost all the people i know who work in an office as a salaried employee are closer to 50 hours per week than 40. so take roughly 50 weeks (accounting for 2 weeks vacation) with an average of say 7 extra hours per week and yup those teachers are now back to 350 hours or 43.75 days short. do the math if you can and then maybe try again.
    I'll say it again. I don't know where you work, but I have worked in an office for 20 years. ZERO people at that workplace work more than their 35 hours per week, and if they do, they are PAID OVERTIME FOR IT. and I don't know anybody that would work overtime without pay in an office. Unless they are in management, and they get an extra week of paid vacation in lieu of paid overtime. Teachers don't get overtime pay to my knowledge. so the math does actually add up.
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    PJ_Soul said:

    lukin2006 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    lukin2006 said:

    pjhawks said:

    Free said:

    Free, do you actually want to know why no teachers are discussing common core? It is because they are too busy defending themselves against your assertion that their careers are one big perkfest.

    Please explain how a week or more for Christmas break, bank holidays, thanksgiving, spring break, winter break, Snow days, and summer break are not perks. Anyone working in a professional Field don't get half of that off. Hawks and I are simply pointing that fact out with many people excusing it while also pointing out that it is a full-time job. With all that time off, and the full-time pay, pension and tenure the teachers in my state get at least, it deserves speculation. In other states were teachers get low pay, I am not saying they should, but comparing the time and days worked, the pay might be more in line.
    Yup. Correct. You... and one other person- pjhawks (who seems more moderate) are continuing with this assertion.

    I posted a model of comparison for you. I posted- twice now- the pay structures and typical work schedules- for teachers and nurses in a side by side format.

    You both have ignored the comparison which clearly shows nurses work the same amount of days and get paid more (much more in fact).

    As expressed, I am not begrudging nurses of anything- they deserve all they get and more. I posted it to squash your biased claim.
    you are in Canada. I know nothing about work rules or what goes on in Canada so i can't make any comment on nurses vs. teachers in Canda.
    Well let me tell you, neither nurse's nor teachers with full time jobs will struggle financially in Canada ... unless you reside in maybe Toronto or Vancouver and a few of the other large urban areas where housing cost are ridiculous.
    Ummm, well the numbers of teachers and nurses in Toronto, Vancouver, and other major urban centres are extremely significant, and yeah, they are pretty much dirt poor in those places. But that isn't even the point of this conversation I thought. Don't teachers deserve more than just "not struggling"??
    Thee only reason they would struggle in those areas is because of the ridiculous housing prices ... my sister lives in TO is a teacher and is doing well and owns her own property and is single. We all deserve more than not struggling, every person who gets off their off their ass and goes to work for a living deserve not to struggle ... unfortunately thats not the case...
    As I live in Vancouver, I know why people struggle here, and it's not only because of housing prices, but that is a huge part of it. I completely agree that anyone who works full time, be they teachers, lawyers, or ditch diggers, deserve not to struggle. But then I think some professions deserve more. Teachers do not get as much as they deserve IMO, because of the work they do, their importance in our society, and the education levels that the work now demands (which is generally the masters level). As I said earlier in the thread, I think their salaries should START at about $70K and go up from there (btw, not sure when your sister bought her property, but there is no way anyone in Vancouver is buying any property on a teacher's salary. Not unless someone gives them a massive down payment or something).
    For 1 she did not buy in downtown ... on the outskirts, its a condo ... other than that I have no details. The only complaints I hear from her in regards to teaching complaints is more or less about the bureaucrats and administration. And she loves TO ... so she makes it work without complaint. Teachers in Ontario do very well, once you've completed all your required courses and are at the top of the grid you are looking at pay just south of 100 k and some teachers are creeping over a 100 k and appearing on the sunshine list, as are nurse's in Ontario ... lets not even talk about police and fire, all very well taken care of...all of these professions come with pensions and very generous benefit packages. So I'll save the pity party for people who for one reason or another are struggling with low paying jobs..and deserve to be treated better.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 14,227
    pjhawks said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    pjhawks said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    pjhawks said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    It seems to me that pjhawks has a very specific (somewhat mysterious) kind of worker in mind and isn't willing to waver from that type while discussing this.

    maybe i just know a lot of people who work really fucking hard. i know no one who works strictly 9-5 in an office setting. most of who i know who work full time in an office are in by 7:00 or 7:30 and don't leave until at least 5:00 on weekdays.
    For no extra pay and for teacher salaries??? If so, they are chumps. (it's odd that you don't know anyone who works in a 9 - 5 office too btw. Well, I guess now you do. I work in a 9 - 5 office. If I work overtime I get PAID for it. Double time. As it should be). You're acting like it's a good thing that these people's employers are taking advantage of their employees.
    no i don't know any salaried employees who work 9-5. and no they make more than teachers well because they work more days which is what the initial discussion was about. round and round we go :smiley:
    SMH. So wtf is your argument? That teachers should work too many hours and not get paid for working extra time, the way they do now? That's what your point is? And no comment on the employers taking advantage of your friends and family?
    ugh for the 20th time. original post had a study that teachers get paid 77% of what other college degree professionals get paid...yet they work only around 77% of the number of days or those professionals. rinse, repeat :confused: fuck for the 2nd time i give up
    ugh for the hundredth time. they don't work 77% of the number of days of other professionals. unless your entire argument is based on calendar days, and not cumulative hours as days, which would be ludicrous. I know people at my office who work 7 days in a 2 week period. hey, that's not nearly as much as me! oh, wait, they work 10 hours per day. forgot about that. now that makes sense.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 23,199
    I wonder how many non-teacher professionals get paid while they are posting to Facebook or their favorite rock band fan site and how many teachers do the same during school hours. That would be interesting to know.
    The reason I never give up hope is because everything is so basically hopeless.
    -Anne Lamott
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.



  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087

    pjhawks said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    pjhawks said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    pjhawks said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    It seems to me that pjhawks has a very specific (somewhat mysterious) kind of worker in mind and isn't willing to waver from that type while discussing this.

    maybe i just know a lot of people who work really fucking hard. i know no one who works strictly 9-5 in an office setting. most of who i know who work full time in an office are in by 7:00 or 7:30 and don't leave until at least 5:00 on weekdays.
    For no extra pay and for teacher salaries??? If so, they are chumps. (it's odd that you don't know anyone who works in a 9 - 5 office too btw. Well, I guess now you do. I work in a 9 - 5 office. If I work overtime I get PAID for it. Double time. As it should be). You're acting like it's a good thing that these people's employers are taking advantage of their employees.
    no i don't know any salaried employees who work 9-5. and no they make more than teachers well because they work more days which is what the initial discussion was about. round and round we go :smiley:
    SMH. So wtf is your argument? That teachers should work too many hours and not get paid for working extra time, the way they do now? That's what your point is? And no comment on the employers taking advantage of your friends and family?
    ugh for the 20th time. original post had a study that teachers get paid 77% of what other college degree professionals get paid...yet they work only around 77% of the number of days or those professionals. rinse, repeat :confused: fuck for the 2nd time i give up
    ugh for the hundredth time. they don't work 77% of the number of days of other professionals. unless your entire argument is based on calendar days, and not cumulative hours as days, which would be ludicrous. I know people at my office who work 7 days in a 2 week period. hey, that's not nearly as much as me! oh, wait, they work 10 hours per day. forgot about that. now that makes sense.
    pjhawks is right ... what other professions get 2 weeks at Christmas, a week at march and 9 weeks in the summer...any work they do after their contracted time is by choice...but they are expected to contribute beyond their contracted time, thats why their paid like full-time employees (in Canada at least) ... and who knows about the states ...
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 2,354
    hedonist said:

    In CA (not sure of other states), salaried means exempt from OT. Double-edged sword as working extra here and there is balanced by being able to come in late or leave early on occasion. I make a decent living but am hourly, so while I'm willing to work extra as needed - and knowing I'll be paid time-and-a-half for that - I'm in the office at 8am and take off at 5:00. Definitely check and respond to emails off the clock, but that's my choice. I'd hate for it to be expected of me.

    I assume by exempt from OT it means the employers are not forced to pay OT? Because they certainly can if they chose to.
    Born and raised CA, most of my family still lives there. Many family members, and family friends work for the public sector and every single one of them gets paid for over time with the exception of teachers. All are salaried positions. All salaried really means in those places is it come with paid sick and vacation time. Some of them even force you to leave at the end of the day so they don't have to pay you OT.
    Have a lot of family members working in the public sector I've often wondered why I'm the only one who doesn't get OT pay, even though were all salaried.
    Private sector its up to the employer, and most would chose not to, but they certainly can. But those who work the 60 hour weeks make triple or better what teachers make.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 14,227
    brianlux said:

    I wonder how many non-teacher professionals get paid while they are posting to Facebook or their favorite rock band fan site and how many teachers do the same during school hours. That would be interesting to know.

    I made the same comment a couple pages ago. nothing but crickets.
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 2,354
    lukin2006 said:

    pjhawks said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    pjhawks said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    pjhawks said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    It seems to me that pjhawks has a very specific (somewhat mysterious) kind of worker in mind and isn't willing to waver from that type while discussing this.

    maybe i just know a lot of people who work really fucking hard. i know no one who works strictly 9-5 in an office setting. most of who i know who work full time in an office are in by 7:00 or 7:30 and don't leave until at least 5:00 on weekdays.
    For no extra pay and for teacher salaries??? If so, they are chumps. (it's odd that you don't know anyone who works in a 9 - 5 office too btw. Well, I guess now you do. I work in a 9 - 5 office. If I work overtime I get PAID for it. Double time. As it should be). You're acting like it's a good thing that these people's employers are taking advantage of their employees.
    no i don't know any salaried employees who work 9-5. and no they make more than teachers well because they work more days which is what the initial discussion was about. round and round we go :smiley:
    SMH. So wtf is your argument? That teachers should work too many hours and not get paid for working extra time, the way they do now? That's what your point is? And no comment on the employers taking advantage of your friends and family?
    ugh for the 20th time. original post had a study that teachers get paid 77% of what other college degree professionals get paid...yet they work only around 77% of the number of days or those professionals. rinse, repeat :confused: fuck for the 2nd time i give up
    ugh for the hundredth time. they don't work 77% of the number of days of other professionals. unless your entire argument is based on calendar days, and not cumulative hours as days, which would be ludicrous. I know people at my office who work 7 days in a 2 week period. hey, that's not nearly as much as me! oh, wait, they work 10 hours per day. forgot about that. now that makes sense.
    pjhawks is right ... what other professions get 2 weeks at Christmas, a week at march and 9 weeks in the summer...any work they do after their contracted time is by choice...but they are expected to contribute beyond their contracted time, thats why their paid like full-time employees (in Canada at least) ... and who knows about the states ...
    the point of this conversation is they aren't paid like full time employees, more like 3/4 time employees.
    And the "by choice" is definitely not true, Many things we are expected to do that simply cannot be done during the day in class.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 14,227
    lukin2006 said:

    pjhawks said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    pjhawks said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    pjhawks said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    It seems to me that pjhawks has a very specific (somewhat mysterious) kind of worker in mind and isn't willing to waver from that type while discussing this.

    maybe i just know a lot of people who work really fucking hard. i know no one who works strictly 9-5 in an office setting. most of who i know who work full time in an office are in by 7:00 or 7:30 and don't leave until at least 5:00 on weekdays.
    For no extra pay and for teacher salaries??? If so, they are chumps. (it's odd that you don't know anyone who works in a 9 - 5 office too btw. Well, I guess now you do. I work in a 9 - 5 office. If I work overtime I get PAID for it. Double time. As it should be). You're acting like it's a good thing that these people's employers are taking advantage of their employees.
    no i don't know any salaried employees who work 9-5. and no they make more than teachers well because they work more days which is what the initial discussion was about. round and round we go :smiley:
    SMH. So wtf is your argument? That teachers should work too many hours and not get paid for working extra time, the way they do now? That's what your point is? And no comment on the employers taking advantage of your friends and family?
    ugh for the 20th time. original post had a study that teachers get paid 77% of what other college degree professionals get paid...yet they work only around 77% of the number of days or those professionals. rinse, repeat :confused: fuck for the 2nd time i give up
    ugh for the hundredth time. they don't work 77% of the number of days of other professionals. unless your entire argument is based on calendar days, and not cumulative hours as days, which would be ludicrous. I know people at my office who work 7 days in a 2 week period. hey, that's not nearly as much as me! oh, wait, they work 10 hours per day. forgot about that. now that makes sense.
    pjhawks is right ... what other professions get 2 weeks at Christmas, a week at march and 9 weeks in the summer...any work they do after their contracted time is by choice...but they are expected to contribute beyond their contracted time, thats why their paid like full-time employees (in Canada at least) ... and who knows about the states ...
    well of course their time off at school breaks is a no brainer. that's an indisputable fact. but the argument that they only work 77% of the time of other professions is just fallacy.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 23,199

    brianlux said:

    I wonder how many non-teacher professionals get paid while they are posting to Facebook or their favorite rock band fan site and how many teachers do the same during school hours. That would be interesting to know.

    I made the same comment a couple pages ago. nothing but crickets.
    Echoes of the Sound of Silence.
    The reason I never give up hope is because everything is so basically hopeless.
    -Anne Lamott
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.



  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    mace1229 said:

    lukin2006 said:

    pjhawks said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    pjhawks said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    pjhawks said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    It seems to me that pjhawks has a very specific (somewhat mysterious) kind of worker in mind and isn't willing to waver from that type while discussing this.

    maybe i just know a lot of people who work really fucking hard. i know no one who works strictly 9-5 in an office setting. most of who i know who work full time in an office are in by 7:00 or 7:30 and don't leave until at least 5:00 on weekdays.
    For no extra pay and for teacher salaries??? If so, they are chumps. (it's odd that you don't know anyone who works in a 9 - 5 office too btw. Well, I guess now you do. I work in a 9 - 5 office. If I work overtime I get PAID for it. Double time. As it should be). You're acting like it's a good thing that these people's employers are taking advantage of their employees.
    no i don't know any salaried employees who work 9-5. and no they make more than teachers well because they work more days which is what the initial discussion was about. round and round we go :smiley:
    SMH. So wtf is your argument? That teachers should work too many hours and not get paid for working extra time, the way they do now? That's what your point is? And no comment on the employers taking advantage of your friends and family?
    ugh for the 20th time. original post had a study that teachers get paid 77% of what other college degree professionals get paid...yet they work only around 77% of the number of days or those professionals. rinse, repeat :confused: fuck for the 2nd time i give up
    ugh for the hundredth time. they don't work 77% of the number of days of other professionals. unless your entire argument is based on calendar days, and not cumulative hours as days, which would be ludicrous. I know people at my office who work 7 days in a 2 week period. hey, that's not nearly as much as me! oh, wait, they work 10 hours per day. forgot about that. now that makes sense.
    pjhawks is right ... what other professions get 2 weeks at Christmas, a week at march and 9 weeks in the summer...any work they do after their contracted time is by choice...but they are expected to contribute beyond their contracted time, thats why their paid like full-time employees (in Canada at least) ... and who knows about the states ...
    the point of this conversation is they aren't paid like full time employees, more like 3/4 time employees.
    And the "by choice" is definitely not true, Many things we are expected to do that simply cannot be done during the day in class.
    I said in Canada they are paid like full time employees, unless you consider salaries in the range of 50 - 100 k part-time wages. And the wages I've seen as average for the US aren't slave wages + they could get part-time jobs with their generous time off.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • hedonisthedonist standing on the edge of foreverPosts: 19,147
    brianlux said:

    I wonder how many non-teacher professionals get paid while they are posting to Facebook or their favorite rock band fan site and how many teachers do the same during school hours. That would be interesting to know.

    Interesting for what purpose though?

    You're working, you're working. Got some down time? Go for it! Whether cruising the internet or chatting up a coworker for 20 minutes or texting or even that fucking Pokemon Go shit. It happens, and if that causes a cog in the process, it's dealt with. Usually.

    I get my shit done - and done well. This is the only social media site I post on. I'm fine with it and apparently work is too, as I'd never blow off a commitment to output and quality just to post...oh, I don't know...in this thread ;)


    mace, the OT thing is how it's always been for me. In my experience, salaried folks tend to be paid a bit higher to compensate for the extra work/no overtime pay.
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087

    lukin2006 said:

    pjhawks said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    pjhawks said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    pjhawks said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    It seems to me that pjhawks has a very specific (somewhat mysterious) kind of worker in mind and isn't willing to waver from that type while discussing this.

    maybe i just know a lot of people who work really fucking hard. i know no one who works strictly 9-5 in an office setting. most of who i know who work full time in an office are in by 7:00 or 7:30 and don't leave until at least 5:00 on weekdays.
    For no extra pay and for teacher salaries??? If so, they are chumps. (it's odd that you don't know anyone who works in a 9 - 5 office too btw. Well, I guess now you do. I work in a 9 - 5 office. If I work overtime I get PAID for it. Double time. As it should be). You're acting like it's a good thing that these people's employers are taking advantage of their employees.
    no i don't know any salaried employees who work 9-5. and no they make more than teachers well because they work more days which is what the initial discussion was about. round and round we go :smiley:
    SMH. So wtf is your argument? That teachers should work too many hours and not get paid for working extra time, the way they do now? That's what your point is? And no comment on the employers taking advantage of your friends and family?
    ugh for the 20th time. original post had a study that teachers get paid 77% of what other college degree professionals get paid...yet they work only around 77% of the number of days or those professionals. rinse, repeat :confused: fuck for the 2nd time i give up
    ugh for the hundredth time. they don't work 77% of the number of days of other professionals. unless your entire argument is based on calendar days, and not cumulative hours as days, which would be ludicrous. I know people at my office who work 7 days in a 2 week period. hey, that's not nearly as much as me! oh, wait, they work 10 hours per day. forgot about that. now that makes sense.
    pjhawks is right ... what other professions get 2 weeks at Christmas, a week at march and 9 weeks in the summer...any work they do after their contracted time is by choice...but they are expected to contribute beyond their contracted time, thats why their paid like full-time employees (in Canada at least) ... and who knows about the states ...
    well of course their time off at school breaks is a no brainer. that's an indisputable fact. but the argument that they only work 77% of the time of other professions is just fallacy.

    I'm commenting more toward Ontario specifically ... but generally speaking they are paid like full-time employees, my sister hasn't worked part-time once she became permanent ... and never complains and lives in TO. I think she enjoys her time off and wouldn't have it any other way, so why complain...in States a lot of civil service jobs are paid considerably less than in Canada, look upt the starting salary for a Detroit cop for example...hey they pay less in taxes so that means less money for their rival servants.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 40,534
    edited August 2016
    lukin2006 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    lukin2006 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    lukin2006 said:

    pjhawks said:

    Free said:

    Free, do you actually want to know why no teachers are discussing common core? It is because they are too busy defending themselves against your assertion that their careers are one big perkfest.

    Please explain how a week or more for Christmas break, bank holidays, thanksgiving, spring break, winter break, Snow days, and summer break are not perks. Anyone working in a professional Field don't get half of that off. Hawks and I are simply pointing that fact out with many people excusing it while also pointing out that it is a full-time job. With all that time off, and the full-time pay, pension and tenure the teachers in my state get at least, it deserves speculation. In other states were teachers get low pay, I am not saying they should, but comparing the time and days worked, the pay might be more in line.
    Yup. Correct. You... and one other person- pjhawks (who seems more moderate) are continuing with this assertion.

    I posted a model of comparison for you. I posted- twice now- the pay structures and typical work schedules- for teachers and nurses in a side by side format.

    You both have ignored the comparison which clearly shows nurses work the same amount of days and get paid more (much more in fact).

    As expressed, I am not begrudging nurses of anything- they deserve all they get and more. I posted it to squash your biased claim.
    you are in Canada. I know nothing about work rules or what goes on in Canada so i can't make any comment on nurses vs. teachers in Canda.
    Well let me tell you, neither nurse's nor teachers with full time jobs will struggle financially in Canada ... unless you reside in maybe Toronto or Vancouver and a few of the other large urban areas where housing cost are ridiculous.
    Ummm, well the numbers of teachers and nurses in Toronto, Vancouver, and other major urban centres are extremely significant, and yeah, they are pretty much dirt poor in those places. But that isn't even the point of this conversation I thought. Don't teachers deserve more than just "not struggling"??
    Thee only reason they would struggle in those areas is because of the ridiculous housing prices ... my sister lives in TO is a teacher and is doing well and owns her own property and is single. We all deserve more than not struggling, every person who gets off their off their ass and goes to work for a living deserve not to struggle ... unfortunately thats not the case...
    As I live in Vancouver, I know why people struggle here, and it's not only because of housing prices, but that is a huge part of it. I completely agree that anyone who works full time, be they teachers, lawyers, or ditch diggers, deserve not to struggle. But then I think some professions deserve more. Teachers do not get as much as they deserve IMO, because of the work they do, their importance in our society, and the education levels that the work now demands (which is generally the masters level). As I said earlier in the thread, I think their salaries should START at about $70K and go up from there (btw, not sure when your sister bought her property, but there is no way anyone in Vancouver is buying any property on a teacher's salary. Not unless someone gives them a massive down payment or something).
    For 1 she did not buy in downtown ... on the outskirts, its a condo ... other than that I have no details. The only complaints I hear from her in regards to teaching complaints is more or less about the bureaucrats and administration. And she loves TO ... so she makes it work without complaint. Teachers in Ontario do very well, once you've completed all your required courses and are at the top of the grid you are looking at pay just south of 100 k and some teachers are creeping over a 100 k and appearing on the sunshine list, as are nurse's in Ontario ... lets not even talk about police and fire, all very well taken care of...all of these professions come with pensions and very generous benefit packages. So I'll save the pity party for people who for one reason or another are struggling with low paying jobs..and deserve to be treated better.
    Well that's the thing. "top of the grid". In actuality hardly any teachers get paid anywhere near that much. The provincial governments basically fudge those numbers so that people think teachers are earning more than they are. One thing I know they do to skew those stats is include all of the administration in that, many of whom make way more than teachers do.
    FWIW, this is not a pity party. We're talking about teachers getting underpaid for what they do, not about teachers being destitute.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 23,199
    hedonist said:

    brianlux said:

    I wonder how many non-teacher professionals get paid while they are posting to Facebook or their favorite rock band fan site and how many teachers do the same during school hours. That would be interesting to know.

    Interesting for what purpose though?

    You're working, you're working. Got some down time? Go for it! Whether cruising the internet or chatting up a coworker for 20 minutes or texting or even that fucking Pokemon Go shit. It happens, and if that causes a cog in the process, it's dealt with. Usually.

    I get my shit done - and done well. This is the only social media site I post on. I'm fine with it and apparently work is too, as I'd never blow off a commitment to output and quality just to post...oh, I don't know...in this thread ;)


    mace, the OT thing is how it's always been for me. In my experience, salaried folks tend to be paid a bit higher to compensate for the extra work/no overtime pay.
    I questioned "how many" not "which one". I did not direct this question at any individual. You are one person.

    But thanks for responding anyway. You're the only one besides Hugh and he basically asked the same question.
    The reason I never give up hope is because everything is so basically hopeless.
    -Anne Lamott
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.



  • hedonisthedonist standing on the edge of foreverPosts: 19,147
    brianlux said:

    hedonist said:

    brianlux said:

    I wonder how many non-teacher professionals get paid while they are posting to Facebook or their favorite rock band fan site and how many teachers do the same during school hours. That would be interesting to know.

    Interesting for what purpose though?

    You're working, you're working. Got some down time? Go for it! Whether cruising the internet or chatting up a coworker for 20 minutes or texting or even that fucking Pokemon Go shit. It happens, and if that causes a cog in the process, it's dealt with. Usually.

    I get my shit done - and done well. This is the only social media site I post on. I'm fine with it and apparently work is too, as I'd never blow off a commitment to output and quality just to post...oh, I don't know...in this thread ;)


    mace, the OT thing is how it's always been for me. In my experience, salaried folks tend to be paid a bit higher to compensate for the extra work/no overtime pay.
    I questioned "how many" not "which one". I did not direct this question at any individual. You are one person.

    But thanks for responding anyway. You're the only one besides Hugh and he basically asked the same question.
    You're welcome...? Not sure anyone could know how many, so just answered as one. Maybe others'll chime in similarly.
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