Something about teacher's pay...

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  • FreeFree Posts: 3,562
    You didn't get school breaks Brian? T-giving, Christmas, winter and Easter breaks. That teachers get.
  • DegeneratefkDegeneratefk Posts: 2,695
    edited August 2016
    Many "days off" during the school year that aren't holidays are administration days in which the teachers still have to show up. Many teachers don't have the entire summer off if they teach summer school, drivers ed, or coach.
    will myself to find a home, a home within myself
    we will find a way, we will find our place
  • dankinddankind I am not your foot. Posts: 9,209


    I'd give all of these teachers a raise.
    I SAW PEARL JAM
  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 7,960

    Many "days off" during the school year that aren't holidays are administration days in which the teachers still have to show up. Many teachers don't have the entire summer off if they teach summer school, drivers ed, or coach.

    i didn't count those. my school district gets a Jewish holiday off in September, Friday after thanksgiving, Christmas break, MLK Day, Presidents day and a Spring break that most companies don't give their employees off for. Obviously some offices are closed on MLK and maybe even Presidents day but for the most part that is up to about 15 days off that regular professionals don't get excluding summer.

    Summer school and coaching are (usually) paid gigs outside of their teacher salaries.
  • what dreamswhat dreams Posts: 927
    edited August 2016
    pjhawks said:

    brianlux said:

    pjhawks said:

    the average teacher makes 77% of what others with college degrees earn according to the posted article yet it fails to mention they only work around 77% of the amount of time that regular 12 month workers work. you have to factor in the 2 1/2 summer months they get off. also i've never agreed with the philosophy that higher pay will equal better teachers/teaching. higher pay will and 2 1/2 months off will push people into the field who don't truly love it. one thing about most teachers today (that i know of at least) is that they do truly love what they are doing.

    77% of the time? This is not true. Sorry man but obviously you've not been a teacher.
    well 9.5 months divided by 12 months is 79%. i know many teachers and God bless them but even higher pay i wouldn't do their job.

    how do you factor in school districts and communities paying into pensions and health care costs for teachers as well? i know many districts are trying to get out of the pension and lower health care costs but seems like teachers still get more than the average worker these days.
    Yes, we're all getting fat rich on our teaching salaries plus benefits doing next to nothing.

    Oh my God, I'm only about 10 posts into this thread, and this 23 year veteran already feels the explosion coming on. I have a feeling I should stop reading now.
  • brianlux said:

    Let me ask this: If teachers are well paid and have it so easy with so much free time, why is there a teacher shortage in many parts of the U.S.? Why aren't people clamoring to compete for these jobs? Why are we well known for lagging behind in education? Why does America consistently rank low in education world-wide?

    Why do we have a teacher shortage? Because who would go into a profession where all the public does is bitch about what teachers do, while making VAST generalizations about our lack of professionalism and talents? The absolute lack of respect and misunderstanding of what we really do astounds me. People think that just because they themselves were once students, and now their children are students, they are experts on teaching. I would never claim to understand anybody else's profession the way people think they know teaching. It's this bullshit that makes me want to quit. Nothing about the pay, or the hours, or don't get me started on the whack job Generation X parents I deal with. I've seen a lot of changes in 23 years, and it's the change in parenting that is the absolute worst.
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    Teachers in Ontario are doing very well. And for those unhappy you can get a summer job to supplement your income
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 7,960

    pjhawks said:

    brianlux said:

    pjhawks said:

    the average teacher makes 77% of what others with college degrees earn according to the posted article yet it fails to mention they only work around 77% of the amount of time that regular 12 month workers work. you have to factor in the 2 1/2 summer months they get off. also i've never agreed with the philosophy that higher pay will equal better teachers/teaching. higher pay will and 2 1/2 months off will push people into the field who don't truly love it. one thing about most teachers today (that i know of at least) is that they do truly love what they are doing.

    77% of the time? This is not true. Sorry man but obviously you've not been a teacher.
    well 9.5 months divided by 12 months is 79%. i know many teachers and God bless them but even higher pay i wouldn't do their job.

    how do you factor in school districts and communities paying into pensions and health care costs for teachers as well? i know many districts are trying to get out of the pension and lower health care costs but seems like teachers still get more than the average worker these days.
    Yes, we're all getting fat rich on our teaching salaries plus benefits doing next to nothing.

    Oh my God, I'm only about 10 posts into this thread, and this 23 year veteran already feels the explosion coming on. I have a feeling I should stop reading now.
    no one has said teachers are getting rich and doing nothing. the OP was about teacher salaries vs. other professionals. all posts since then have been in reference to that.
  • what dreamswhat dreams Posts: 927
    edited August 2016

    Many "days off" during the school year that aren't holidays are administration days in which the teachers still have to show up. Many teachers don't have the entire summer off if they teach summer school, drivers ed, or coach.

    And NONE of our holidays are paid vacation days. The standard teaching contract is based on a per diem rate only for actual school days worked, which is usually anywhere from 180-194 (and yes, we work many, many more than that). Most states are right to work states and there are no union contracts. Those states offer the worst salaries. I started my career in Charleston, SC, and my starting salary was $1800 more than the federal poverty line. After five years, I moved back home to the DC area nearly bankrupt with a pile of credit card debt because I had to charge groceries to even eat, among other things. By moving, I almost doubled my salary, but I also doubled my living expenses. These past eight years, since the 2008 crash, our salaries have been frozen, until finally this past year, a courageous new superintendent took on our Board of Supervisors and fought hard to bring us back in line with the market.

    When looking at average salary statistics, it's important to realize one thing. Fifty percent of teachers leave the profession by year five (see my post about respect and you will see why) to be replaced by other young teachers. While there may be people on the high end bringing up that average salary, the vast majority of our young teachers are at the very low end of the scale, and in most states/localities, they are making a near poverty wage.

    You also need to realize that if you know a teacher who seems to be living just fine because she gets to take a trip to a fancy place, she's probably married in a two income household. Those of us who are single, even on the higher end of the scale, struggle. My one trip a year is to one Pearl Jam show, and I save money in a jar to pay for it.

    Post edited by what dreams on
  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 7,960

    Many "days off" during the school year that aren't holidays are administration days in which the teachers still have to show up. Many teachers don't have the entire summer off if they teach summer school, drivers ed, or coach.

    And NONE of our holidays are paid vacation days. The standard teaching contract is based on a per diem rate only for days actually worked, which is usually anywhere from 180-194. Most states are right to work states and there are no union contracts. Those states offer the worst salaries. I started my career in Charleston, SC, and my starting salary was $1800 more than the federal poverty line. After five years, I moved back home to the DC area nearly bankrupt with a pile of credit card debt because I had to charge groceries to even eat, among other things. By moving, I almost doubled my salary, but I also doubled my living expenses. These past eight years, since the 2008 crash, our salaries have been frozen, until finally this past year, a courageous new superintendent took on our Board of Supervisors and fought hard to bring us back in line with the market.

    When looking at average salary statistics, it's important to realize one thing. Fifty percent of teachers leave the profession by year five (see my post about respect and you will see why) to be replaced by other young teachers. While there may be people on the high end bringing up that average salary, the vast majority of our young teachers are at the very low end of the scale, and in most states/localities, they are making a near poverty wage.

    You also need to realize that if you know a teacher who seems to be living just fine because she gets to take a trip to a fancy place, she's probably married in a two income household. Those of us who are single, even on the higher end of the scale, struggle. My one trip a year is to one Pearl Jam show, and I save money in a jar to pay for it.

    thanks for proving my point. so you work 180-194 days per year. most office professionals are closer to 250 days per year (5 days per week for 52 weeks minus holidays). so while salaries for teachers are only 77% of other professionals the other professionals work roughly 16%-20% more days per year...as i have been saying since the 1st post.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 20,211

    brianlux said:

    Let me ask this: If teachers are well paid and have it so easy with so much free time, why is there a teacher shortage in many parts of the U.S.? Why aren't people clamoring to compete for these jobs? Why are we well known for lagging behind in education? Why does America consistently rank low in education world-wide?

    Why do we have a teacher shortage? Because who would go into a profession where all the public does is bitch about what teachers do, while making VAST generalizations about our lack of professionalism and talents? The absolute lack of respect and misunderstanding of what we really do astounds me. People think that just because they themselves were once students, and now their children are students, they are experts on teaching. I would never claim to understand anybody else's profession the way people think they know teaching. It's this bullshit that makes me want to quit. Nothing about the pay, or the hours, or don't get me started on the whack job Generation X parents I deal with. I've seen a lot of changes in 23 years, and it's the change in parenting that is the absolute worst.
    Like any profession there are, no doubt, teachers out there that don't do all that good a job but you are so right, what dreams. Unless you've been there, most people don't have a clue as to how hard the job is and how bad the resistance from a public that generally is not very supportive and administrators who often seem to act like "If it wasn't for these damn students and teachers...". And yes, wa-a-a-y too many parents who act like school is supposed to do the parenting. Bullshit!

    Thank you for hanging tough as a teacher, what dreams!
    We're living on the edge of something big. It's a fantastic time in history to be alive.
    AMT, 1.25.15, 00:36 hrs.
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.
  • pjhawks said:

    Many "days off" during the school year that aren't holidays are administration days in which the teachers still have to show up. Many teachers don't have the entire summer off if they teach summer school, drivers ed, or coach.

    And NONE of our holidays are paid vacation days. The standard teaching contract is based on a per diem rate only for days actually worked, which is usually anywhere from 180-194. Most states are right to work states and there are no union contracts. Those states offer the worst salaries. I started my career in Charleston, SC, and my starting salary was $1800 more than the federal poverty line. After five years, I moved back home to the DC area nearly bankrupt with a pile of credit card debt because I had to charge groceries to even eat, among other things. By moving, I almost doubled my salary, but I also doubled my living expenses. These past eight years, since the 2008 crash, our salaries have been frozen, until finally this past year, a courageous new superintendent took on our Board of Supervisors and fought hard to bring us back in line with the market.

    When looking at average salary statistics, it's important to realize one thing. Fifty percent of teachers leave the profession by year five (see my post about respect and you will see why) to be replaced by other young teachers. While there may be people on the high end bringing up that average salary, the vast majority of our young teachers are at the very low end of the scale, and in most states/localities, they are making a near poverty wage.

    You also need to realize that if you know a teacher who seems to be living just fine because she gets to take a trip to a fancy place, she's probably married in a two income household. Those of us who are single, even on the higher end of the scale, struggle. My one trip a year is to one Pearl Jam show, and I save money in a jar to pay for it.

    thanks for proving my point. so you work 180-194 days per year. most office professionals are closer to 250 days per year (5 days per week for 52 weeks minus holidays). so while salaries for teachers are only 77% of other professionals the other professionals work roughly 16%-20% more days per year...as i have been saying since the 1st post.
    No, I said in the *edited* post teachers get paid for the days they are *at school* working. They don't get paid for the nights or weekends they are at home working, which is why about five years in, I said fuck it, no more homework for me. Unlike most teachers, for the most part, I don't bring work home. Like "most office professionals," I refuse to provide free labor to my employer. At 2:40, when the contracted time I get paid for is up, I leave (on most days), without guilt, whether my work for the day is done or not. I'm pretty sure "most office professionals" don't go home saying "oh, I really should work five more hours for free." If they are required by their bosses to work for free, I'm pretty sure "most office professionals" start looking for a new boss once they've had enough. In education, it takes about five years for 50% of teachers to say they've had enough with working for free and they quit. At five years, I didn't quit the profession. I just quit homework.
    Of course, there is a "price" the public pays for my compliance with its misconstrued attitudes about how my work equates to theirs. Because there is only about a half hour of uninterrupted time in the school day when I am not in class with students or in meetings with adults (and some days, I get no time alone at my desk at all), this contract means that sometimes my students' papers don't get graded for a month at a time (a perceived irresponsible teacher), my lesson plans are by and large improvised (a perceived disorganized teacher), and low priority parent emails get ignored or take weeks to answer and most times I don't contact parents at all when kids are struggling (a perceived unresponsive teacher).
    So yes, my professional time does equal a certain amount of money on the market, and the market only wants to pay me for so much time. In my contract, the per diem is calculated on a 7.5 hour day -- haha, what a joke that people think we can do everything they want us to do in 7.5 hours a day when we're with kids for 4.5 hours, meetings/consultations/conferences for another 2, and lunch for 30 minutes, on average. With this schedule, all those other mentioned duties get lost. The public wants to give us a contract to work 7.5 hours at 194 days, and then bitches about how much we suck and we're all failures because we can't get it done. Give me a break.
    Funny how I didn't start out in my career looking at it this way. And funny how, even if at first glance I appear to be irresponsible, disorganized, and unresponsive, my students still out-perform every other teacher's in the department (by all measures, both standardized and unstandardized), and my principal still wants me to serve as department chair and sit on stupid committees, and I still get invited to mentor and train new teachers. Ultimately, I've learned the only thing that matters is the quality of time I spend in the classroom with students, and apparently I'm doing such a good job at it that I'm excused for all my perceived failings. So the first thing I tell new teachers: Don't work at home. You're not getting paid for it, the public in general will never really appreciate it, and honestly, it has minimal to no impact on your students' performance.
  • RiotZactRiotZact Posts: 4,584
    pjhawks said:

    Many "days off" during the school year that aren't holidays are administration days in which the teachers still have to show up. Many teachers don't have the entire summer off if they teach summer school, drivers ed, or coach.

    And NONE of our holidays are paid vacation days. The standard teaching contract is based on a per diem rate only for days actually worked, which is usually anywhere from 180-194. Most states are right to work states and there are no union contracts. Those states offer the worst salaries. I started my career in Charleston, SC, and my starting salary was $1800 more than the federal poverty line. After five years, I moved back home to the DC area nearly bankrupt with a pile of credit card debt because I had to charge groceries to even eat, among other things. By moving, I almost doubled my salary, but I also doubled my living expenses. These past eight years, since the 2008 crash, our salaries have been frozen, until finally this past year, a courageous new superintendent took on our Board of Supervisors and fought hard to bring us back in line with the market.

    When looking at average salary statistics, it's important to realize one thing. Fifty percent of teachers leave the profession by year five (see my post about respect and you will see why) to be replaced by other young teachers. While there may be people on the high end bringing up that average salary, the vast majority of our young teachers are at the very low end of the scale, and in most states/localities, they are making a near poverty wage.

    You also need to realize that if you know a teacher who seems to be living just fine because she gets to take a trip to a fancy place, she's probably married in a two income household. Those of us who are single, even on the higher end of the scale, struggle. My one trip a year is to one Pearl Jam show, and I save money in a jar to pay for it.

    thanks for proving my point. so you work 180-194 days per year. most office professionals are closer to 250 days per year (5 days per week for 52 weeks minus holidays). so while salaries for teachers are only 77% of other professionals the other professionals work roughly 16%-20% more days per year...as i have been saying since the 1st post.
    Aren't most office jobs also 8 hours a day? I just did some student teaching at my local Elementary school and both teachers I worked with said they arrive at 7:30, one said they get out at 5 and the other said 5:30, maybe a little earlier on Fridays. So that's at least 9 hours a day, so at least 5 extra hours a week over your average 9-5 job.

    They also both said that they have to take home homework and tests/quizzes to grade at least a couple times a week. And this was a kindergarten and a 3rd grade teacher, I can't imagine high school level where they have to grade 10 page papers and 20 step math problems.

    I get the point your trying to make here, but you're looking at it as a black/white issue when it's just not. A normal school day is something like 8-4 and that seems to be the only thing your taking into account. My girlfriend works 40 hours a week at an engineering firm and that means when she hits 40 hours she's out the door until next week, that's a nice easy black/white calculation. Teachers don't barge in the classroom door at 8 and then walk out to their cars as their students head to the busses at 4. It's just not a fair comparison to the average office job.
  • eddieceddiec Posts: 2,429
    brianlux said:

    Let me ask this: If teachers are well paid and have it so easy with so much free time, why is there a teacher shortage in many parts of the U.S.? Why aren't people clamoring to compete for these jobs? Why are we well known for lagging behind in education? Why does America consistently rank low in education world-wide?

    I can answer your question as to why there is a shortage: Between the parents, the children and the bureaucracy of administration teaching is a nightmare. There is no amount of money you could pay me to work in a classroom. There is a reason parents look forward to the end of summer while teachers are overcome with feelings of impending doom.

  • FreeFree Posts: 3,562
    edited August 2016

    pjhawks said:

    Many "days off" during the school year that aren't holidays are administration days in which the teachers still have to show up. Many teachers don't have the entire summer off if they teach summer school, drivers ed, or coach.

    And NONE of our holidays are paid vacation days. The standard teaching contract is based on a per diem rate only for days actually worked, which is usually anywhere from 180-194. Most states are right to work states and there are no union contracts. Those states offer the worst salaries. I started my career in Charleston, SC, and my starting salary was $1800 more than the federal poverty line. After five years, I moved back home to the DC area nearly bankrupt with a pile of credit card debt because I had to charge groceries to even eat, among other things. By moving, I almost doubled my salary, but I also doubled my living expenses. These past eight years, since the 2008 crash, our salaries have been frozen, until finally this past year, a courageous new superintendent took on our Board of Supervisors and fought hard to bring us back in line with the market.

    When looking at average salary statistics, it's important to realize one thing. Fifty percent of teachers leave the profession by year five (see my post about respect and you will see why) to be replaced by other young teachers. While there may be people on the high end bringing up that average salary, the vast majority of our young teachers are at the very low end of the scale, and in most states/localities, they are making a near poverty wage.

    You also need to realize that if you know a teacher who seems to be living just fine because she gets to take a trip to a fancy place, she's probably married in a two income household. Those of us who are single, even on the higher end of the scale, struggle. My one trip a year is to one Pearl Jam show, and I save money in a jar to pay for it.

    thanks for proving my point. so you work 180-194 days per year. most office professionals are closer to 250 days per year (5 days per week for 52 weeks minus holidays). so while salaries for teachers are only 77% of other professionals the other professionals work roughly 16%-20% more days per year...as i have been saying since the 1st post.
    No, I said in the *edited* post teachers get paid for the days they are *at school* working. They don't get paid for the nights or weekends they are at home working, which is why about five years in, I said fuck it, no more homework for me. Unlike most teachers, for the most part, I don't bring work home. Like "most office professionals," I refuse to provide free labor to my employer. At 2:40, when the contracted time I get paid for is up, I leave (on most days), without guilt, whether my work for the day is done or not. I'm pretty sure "most office professionals" don't go home saying "oh, I really should work five more hours for free." If they are required by their bosses to work for free, I'm pretty sure "most office professionals" start looking for a new boss once they've had enough. In education, it takes about five years for 50% of teachers to say they've had enough with working for free and they quit. At five years, I didn't quit the profession. I just quit homework.
    Of course, there is a "price" the public pays for my compliance with its misconstrued attitudes about how my work equates to theirs. Because there is only about a half hour of uninterrupted time in the school day when I am not in class with students or in meetings with adults (and some days, I get no time alone at my desk at all), this contract means that sometimes my students' papers don't get graded for a month at a time (a perceived irresponsible teacher), my lesson plans are by and large improvised (a perceived disorganized teacher), and low priority parent emails get ignored or take weeks to answer and most times I don't contact parents at all when kids are struggling (a perceived unresponsive teacher).
    So yes, my professional time does equal a certain amount of money on the market, and the market only wants to pay me for so much time. In my contract, the per diem is calculated on a 7.5 hour day -- haha, what a joke that people think we can do everything they want us to do in 7.5 hours a day when we're with kids for 4.5 hours, meetings/consultations/conferences for another 2, and lunch for 30 minutes, on average. With this schedule, all those other mentioned duties get lost. The public wants to give us a contract to work 7.5 hours at 194 days, and then bitches about how much we suck and we're all failures because we can't get it done. Give me a break.
    Funny how I didn't start out in my career looking at it this way. And funny how, even if at first glance I appear to be irresponsible, disorganized, and unresponsive, my students still out-perform every other teacher's in the department (by all measures, both standardized and unstandardized), and my principal still wants me to serve as department chair and sit on stupid committees, and I still get invited to mentor and train new teachers. Ultimately, I've learned the only thing that matters is the quality of time I spend in the classroom with students, and apparently I'm doing such a good job at it that I'm excused for all my perceived failings. So the first thing I tell new teachers: Don't work at home. You're not getting paid for it, the public in general will never really appreciate it, and honestly, it has minimal to no impact on your students' performance.
    So happy for you that you insist that you work a part-time job w/ full-time benefits because your contract allows it.

    "Low priority parent emails"? "Student papers don't get graded for a month at a time"? Gotcha. Those 2 sentences alone say everything. Enjoy your leisurely summer.
    Post edited by Free on
  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, ColoradoPosts: 3,701
    edited August 2016
    Free said:

    pjhawks said:

    Many "days off" during the school year that aren't holidays are administration days in which the teachers still have to show up. Many teachers don't have the entire summer off if they teach summer school, drivers ed, or coach.

    And NONE of our holidays are paid vacation days. The standard teaching contract is based on a per diem rate only for days actually worked, which is usually anywhere from 180-194. Most states are right to work states and there are no union contracts. Those states offer the worst salaries. I started my career in Charleston, SC, and my starting salary was $1800 more than the federal poverty line. After five years, I moved back home to the DC area nearly bankrupt with a pile of credit card debt because I had to charge groceries to even eat, among other things. By moving, I almost doubled my salary, but I also doubled my living expenses. These past eight years, since the 2008 crash, our salaries have been frozen, until finally this past year, a courageous new superintendent took on our Board of Supervisors and fought hard to bring us back in line with the market.

    When looking at average salary statistics, it's important to realize one thing. Fifty percent of teachers leave the profession by year five (see my post about respect and you will see why) to be replaced by other young teachers. While there may be people on the high end bringing up that average salary, the vast majority of our young teachers are at the very low end of the scale, and in most states/localities, they are making a near poverty wage.

    You also need to realize that if you know a teacher who seems to be living just fine because she gets to take a trip to a fancy place, she's probably married in a two income household. Those of us who are single, even on the higher end of the scale, struggle. My one trip a year is to one Pearl Jam show, and I save money in a jar to pay for it.

    thanks for proving my point. so you work 180-194 days per year. most office professionals are closer to 250 days per year (5 days per week for 52 weeks minus holidays). so while salaries for teachers are only 77% of other professionals the other professionals work roughly 16%-20% more days per year...as i have been saying since the 1st post.
    No, I said in the *edited* post teachers get paid for the days they are *at school* working. They don't get paid for the nights or weekends they are at home working, which is why about five years in, I said fuck it, no more homework for me. Unlike most teachers, for the most part, I don't bring work home. Like "most office professionals," I refuse to provide free labor to my employer. At 2:40, when the contracted time I get paid for is up, I leave (on most days), without guilt, whether my work for the day is done or not. I'm pretty sure "most office professionals" don't go home saying "oh, I really should work five more hours for free." If they are required by their bosses to work for free, I'm pretty sure "most office professionals" start looking for a new boss once they've had enough. In education, it takes about five years for 50% of teachers to say they've had enough with working for free and they quit. At five years, I didn't quit the profession. I just quit homework.
    Of course, there is a "price" the public pays for my compliance with its misconstrued attitudes about how my work equates to theirs. Because there is only about a half hour of uninterrupted time in the school day when I am not in class with students or in meetings with adults (and some days, I get no time alone at my desk at all), this contract means that sometimes my students' papers don't get graded for a month at a time (a perceived irresponsible teacher), my lesson plans are by and large improvised (a perceived disorganized teacher), and low priority parent emails get ignored or take weeks to answer and most times I don't contact parents at all when kids are struggling (a perceived unresponsive teacher).
    So yes, my professional time does equal a certain amount of money on the market, and the market only wants to pay me for so much time. In my contract, the per diem is calculated on a 7.5 hour day -- haha, what a joke that people think we can do everything they want us to do in 7.5 hours a day when we're with kids for 4.5 hours, meetings/consultations/conferences for another 2, and lunch for 30 minutes, on average. With this schedule, all those other mentioned duties get lost. The public wants to give us a contract to work 7.5 hours at 194 days, and then bitches about how much we suck and we're all failures because we can't get it done. Give me a break.
    Funny how I didn't start out in my career looking at it this way. And funny how, even if at first glance I appear to be irresponsible, disorganized, and unresponsive, my students still out-perform every other teacher's in the department (by all measures, both standardized and unstandardized), and my principal still wants me to serve as department chair and sit on stupid committees, and I still get invited to mentor and train new teachers. Ultimately, I've learned the only thing that matters is the quality of time I spend in the classroom with students, and apparently I'm doing such a good job at it that I'm excused for all my perceived failings. So the first thing I tell new teachers: Don't work at home. You're not getting paid for it, the public in general will never really appreciate it, and honestly, it has minimal to no impact on your students' performance.
    So happy for you that you insist that you work a part-time job w/ full-time benefits because your contract allows it.

    "Low priority parent emails"? "Student papers don't get graded for a month at a time"? Gotcha. Those 2 sentences alone say everything. Enjoy your leisurely summer.
    Clearly your teachers didn't do a very good job because you obviously don't get it.

    :nuh_uh:
  • FreeFree Posts: 3,562

    Free said:

    pjhawks said:

    Many "days off" during the school year that aren't holidays are administration days in which the teachers still have to show up. Many teachers don't have the entire summer off if they teach summer school, drivers ed, or coach.

    And NONE of our holidays are paid vacation days. The standard teaching contract is based on a per diem rate only for days actually worked, which is usually anywhere from 180-194. Most states are right to work states and there are no union contracts. Those states offer the worst salaries. I started my career in Charleston, SC, and my starting salary was $1800 more than the federal poverty line. After five years, I moved back home to the DC area nearly bankrupt with a pile of credit card debt because I had to charge groceries to even eat, among other things. By moving, I almost doubled my salary, but I also doubled my living expenses. These past eight years, since the 2008 crash, our salaries have been frozen, until finally this past year, a courageous new superintendent took on our Board of Supervisors and fought hard to bring us back in line with the market.

    When looking at average salary statistics, it's important to realize one thing. Fifty percent of teachers leave the profession by year five (see my post about respect and you will see why) to be replaced by other young teachers. While there may be people on the high end bringing up that average salary, the vast majority of our young teachers are at the very low end of the scale, and in most states/localities, they are making a near poverty wage.

    You also need to realize that if you know a teacher who seems to be living just fine because she gets to take a trip to a fancy place, she's probably married in a two income household. Those of us who are single, even on the higher end of the scale, struggle. My one trip a year is to one Pearl Jam show, and I save money in a jar to pay for it.

    thanks for proving my point. so you work 180-194 days per year. most office professionals are closer to 250 days per year (5 days per week for 52 weeks minus holidays). so while salaries for teachers are only 77% of other professionals the other professionals work roughly 16%-20% more days per year...as i have been saying since the 1st post.
    No, I said in the *edited* post teachers get paid for the days they are *at school* working. They don't get paid for the nights or weekends they are at home working, which is why about five years in, I said fuck it, no more homework for me. Unlike most teachers, for the most part, I don't bring work home. Like "most office professionals," I refuse to provide free labor to my employer. At 2:40, when the contracted time I get paid for is up, I leave (on most days), without guilt, whether my work for the day is done or not. I'm pretty sure "most office professionals" don't go home saying "oh, I really should work five more hours for free." If they are required by their bosses to work for free, I'm pretty sure "most office professionals" start looking for a new boss once they've had enough. In education, it takes about five years for 50% of teachers to say they've had enough with working for free and they quit. At five years, I didn't quit the profession. I just quit homework.
    Of course, there is a "price" the public pays for my compliance with its misconstrued attitudes about how my work equates to theirs. Because there is only about a half hour of uninterrupted time in the school day when I am not in class with students or in meetings with adults (and some days, I get no time alone at my desk at all), this contract means that sometimes my students' papers don't get graded for a month at a time (a perceived irresponsible teacher), my lesson plans are by and large improvised (a perceived disorganized teacher), and low priority parent emails get ignored or take weeks to answer and most times I don't contact parents at all when kids are struggling (a perceived unresponsive teacher).
    So yes, my professional time does equal a certain amount of money on the market, and the market only wants to pay me for so much time. In my contract, the per diem is calculated on a 7.5 hour day -- haha, what a joke that people think we can do everything they want us to do in 7.5 hours a day when we're with kids for 4.5 hours, meetings/consultations/conferences for another 2, and lunch for 30 minutes, on average. With this schedule, all those other mentioned duties get lost. The public wants to give us a contract to work 7.5 hours at 194 days, and then bitches about how much we suck and we're all failures because we can't get it done. Give me a break.
    Funny how I didn't start out in my career looking at it this way. And funny how, even if at first glance I appear to be irresponsible, disorganized, and unresponsive, my students still out-perform every other teacher's in the department (by all measures, both standardized and unstandardized), and my principal still wants me to serve as department chair and sit on stupid committees, and I still get invited to mentor and train new teachers. Ultimately, I've learned the only thing that matters is the quality of time I spend in the classroom with students, and apparently I'm doing such a good job at it that I'm excused for all my perceived failings. So the first thing I tell new teachers: Don't work at home. You're not getting paid for it, the public in general will never really appreciate it, and honestly, it has minimal to no impact on your students' performance.
    So happy for you that you insist that you work a part-time job w/ full-time benefits because your contract allows it.

    "Low priority parent emails"? "Student papers don't get graded for a month at a time"? Gotcha. Those 2 sentences alone say everything. Enjoy your leisurely summer.
    Clearly your teachers didn't do a very good job because you obviously don't get it.

    :nuh_uh:
    Clearly I do. And the dig you edited? I saw that. As a parent, working in a school district, and having siblings who are teachers who complain of bringing work home w/ them yet enjoying long breaks from work because that's the perks of teaching? Oh, I do.
  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, ColoradoPosts: 3,701
    edited August 2016
    Free said:

    Free said:

    pjhawks said:

    Many "days off" during the school year that aren't holidays are administration days in which the teachers still have to show up. Many teachers don't have the entire summer off if they teach summer school, drivers ed, or coach.

    And NONE of our holidays are paid vacation days. The standard teaching contract is based on a per diem rate only for days actually worked, which is usually anywhere from 180-194. Most states are right to work states and there are no union contracts. Those states offer the worst salaries. I started my career in Charleston, SC, and my starting salary was $1800 more than the federal poverty line. After five years, I moved back home to the DC area nearly bankrupt with a pile of credit card debt because I had to charge groceries to even eat, among other things. By moving, I almost doubled my salary, but I also doubled my living expenses. These past eight years, since the 2008 crash, our salaries have been frozen, until finally this past year, a courageous new superintendent took on our Board of Supervisors and fought hard to bring us back in line with the market.

    When looking at average salary statistics, it's important to realize one thing. Fifty percent of teachers leave the profession by year five (see my post about respect and you will see why) to be replaced by other young teachers. While there may be people on the high end bringing up that average salary, the vast majority of our young teachers are at the very low end of the scale, and in most states/localities, they are making a near poverty wage.

    You also need to realize that if you know a teacher who seems to be living just fine because she gets to take a trip to a fancy place, she's probably married in a two income household. Those of us who are single, even on the higher end of the scale, struggle. My one trip a year is to one Pearl Jam show, and I save money in a jar to pay for it.

    thanks for proving my point. so you work 180-194 days per year. most office professionals are closer to 250 days per year (5 days per week for 52 weeks minus holidays). so while salaries for teachers are only 77% of other professionals the other professionals work roughly 16%-20% more days per year...as i have been saying since the 1st post.
    No, I said in the *edited* post teachers get paid for the days they are *at school* working. They don't get paid for the nights or weekends they are at home working, which is why about five years in, I said fuck it, no more homework for me. Unlike most teachers, for the most part, I don't bring work home. Like "most office professionals," I refuse to provide free labor to my employer. At 2:40, when the contracted time I get paid for is up, I leave (on most days), without guilt, whether my work for the day is done or not. I'm pretty sure "most office professionals" don't go home saying "oh, I really should work five more hours for free." If they are required by their bosses to work for free, I'm pretty sure "most office professionals" start looking for a new boss once they've had enough. In education, it takes about five years for 50% of teachers to say they've had enough with working for free and they quit. At five years, I didn't quit the profession. I just quit homework.
    Of course, there is a "price" the public pays for my compliance with its misconstrued attitudes about how my work equates to theirs. Because there is only about a half hour of uninterrupted time in the school day when I am not in class with students or in meetings with adults (and some days, I get no time alone at my desk at all), this contract means that sometimes my students' papers don't get graded for a month at a time (a perceived irresponsible teacher), my lesson plans are by and large improvised (a perceived disorganized teacher), and low priority parent emails get ignored or take weeks to answer and most times I don't contact parents at all when kids are struggling (a perceived unresponsive teacher).
    So yes, my professional time does equal a certain amount of money on the market, and the market only wants to pay me for so much time. In my contract, the per diem is calculated on a 7.5 hour day -- haha, what a joke that people think we can do everything they want us to do in 7.5 hours a day when we're with kids for 4.5 hours, meetings/consultations/conferences for another 2, and lunch for 30 minutes, on average. With this schedule, all those other mentioned duties get lost. The public wants to give us a contract to work 7.5 hours at 194 days, and then bitches about how much we suck and we're all failures because we can't get it done. Give me a break.
    Funny how I didn't start out in my career looking at it this way. And funny how, even if at first glance I appear to be irresponsible, disorganized, and unresponsive, my students still out-perform every other teacher's in the department (by all measures, both standardized and unstandardized), and my principal still wants me to serve as department chair and sit on stupid committees, and I still get invited to mentor and train new teachers. Ultimately, I've learned the only thing that matters is the quality of time I spend in the classroom with students, and apparently I'm doing such a good job at it that I'm excused for all my perceived failings. So the first thing I tell new teachers: Don't work at home. You're not getting paid for it, the public in general will never really appreciate it, and honestly, it has minimal to no impact on your students' performance.
    So happy for you that you insist that you work a part-time job w/ full-time benefits because your contract allows it.

    "Low priority parent emails"? "Student papers don't get graded for a month at a time"? Gotcha. Those 2 sentences alone say everything. Enjoy your leisurely summer.
    Clearly your teachers didn't do a very good job because you obviously don't get it.

    :nuh_uh:
    Clearly I do. And the dig you edited? I saw that. As a parent, working in a school district, and having siblings who are teachers who complain of bringing work home w/ them yet enjoying long breaks from work because that's the perks of teaching? Oh, I do.
    No
    Obviously you don't
    One would think that as a supporter of bernie sanders you would be all about more pay and better understanding of what teachers deal with.
    It's a whole lot more than "long breaks".
    Most public school teachers that I know don't get a summer break because they have to work to make ends meet and to help support their families.
  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 7,960
    RiotZact said:

    pjhawks said:

    Many "days off" during the school year that aren't holidays are administration days in which the teachers still have to show up. Many teachers don't have the entire summer off if they teach summer school, drivers ed, or coach.

    And NONE of our holidays are paid vacation days. The standard teaching contract is based on a per diem rate only for days actually worked, which is usually anywhere from 180-194. Most states are right to work states and there are no union contracts. Those states offer the worst salaries. I started my career in Charleston, SC, and my starting salary was $1800 more than the federal poverty line. After five years, I moved back home to the DC area nearly bankrupt with a pile of credit card debt because I had to charge groceries to even eat, among other things. By moving, I almost doubled my salary, but I also doubled my living expenses. These past eight years, since the 2008 crash, our salaries have been frozen, until finally this past year, a courageous new superintendent took on our Board of Supervisors and fought hard to bring us back in line with the market.

    When looking at average salary statistics, it's important to realize one thing. Fifty percent of teachers leave the profession by year five (see my post about respect and you will see why) to be replaced by other young teachers. While there may be people on the high end bringing up that average salary, the vast majority of our young teachers are at the very low end of the scale, and in most states/localities, they are making a near poverty wage.

    You also need to realize that if you know a teacher who seems to be living just fine because she gets to take a trip to a fancy place, she's probably married in a two income household. Those of us who are single, even on the higher end of the scale, struggle. My one trip a year is to one Pearl Jam show, and I save money in a jar to pay for it.

    thanks for proving my point. so you work 180-194 days per year. most office professionals are closer to 250 days per year (5 days per week for 52 weeks minus holidays). so while salaries for teachers are only 77% of other professionals the other professionals work roughly 16%-20% more days per year...as i have been saying since the 1st post.
    Aren't most office jobs also 8 hours a day? I just did some student teaching at my local Elementary school and both teachers I worked with said they arrive at 7:30, one said they get out at 5 and the other said 5:30, maybe a little earlier on Fridays. So that's at least 9 hours a day, so at least 5 extra hours a week over your average 9-5 job.

    They also both said that they have to take home homework and tests/quizzes to grade at least a couple times a week. And this was a kindergarten and a 3rd grade teacher, I can't imagine high school level where they have to grade 10 page papers and 20 step math problems.

    I get the point your trying to make here, but you're looking at it as a black/white issue when it's just not. A normal school day is something like 8-4 and that seems to be the only thing your taking into account. My girlfriend works 40 hours a week at an engineering firm and that means when she hits 40 hours she's out the door until next week, that's a nice easy black/white calculation. Teachers don't barge in the classroom door at 8 and then walk out to their cars as their students head to the busses at 4. It's just not a fair comparison to the average office job.
    i honestly don't know any professional today who only works 40 hours and who is 'off the clock at 5:00'. with today's technology and global economy everyone i know checks and answers emails and does work whenever needed. i even know people who are required to take cell phones on vacations and answer emails if necessary. maybe your girlfriend is quite lucky in her job but that is by far the norm today. in fact there are studies out there that with technology we aren't 'off' enough in this country anymore.
  • FreeFree Posts: 3,562
    Obviously you don't. But keep attempting to bait me.
  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 7,960
    edited August 2016


    So happy for you that you insist that you work a part-time job w/ full-time benefits because your contract allows it.

    "Low priority parent emails"? "Student papers don't get graded for a month at a time"? Gotcha. Those 2 sentences alone say everything. Enjoy your leisurely summer.


    agree with you. i mean the guy kind of blew his whole argument with that long post. sadly his job is fully protected by his union and he could do even less than the bare minimum and still not lose his job. but they have it so tough :dizzy:
    Post edited by pjhawks on
  • FreeFree Posts: 3,562
    edited August 2016
    pjhawks said:

    So happy for you that you insist that you work a part-time job w/ full-time benefits because your contract allows it.

    "Low priority parent emails"? "Student papers don't get graded for a month at a time"? Gotcha. Those 2 sentences alone say everything. Enjoy your leisurely summer.


    agree with you. i mean the guy kind of blew his whole argument with that long post. sadly his job is fully protected by his union and he could do even less than the bare minimum and still not lose his job. but they have it so tough :dizzy:



    Teachers unions like I said early on give unbelievable perks. Who else in any job gets tenure??? Like I said in Buffalo, teachers actually got cosmetic surgery benefits!
  • RiotZactRiotZact Posts: 4,584
    pjhawks said:

    RiotZact said:

    pjhawks said:

    Many "days off" during the school year that aren't holidays are administration days in which the teachers still have to show up. Many teachers don't have the entire summer off if they teach summer school, drivers ed, or coach.

    And NONE of our holidays are paid vacation days. The standard teaching contract is based on a per diem rate only for days actually worked, which is usually anywhere from 180-194. Most states are right to work states and there are no union contracts. Those states offer the worst salaries. I started my career in Charleston, SC, and my starting salary was $1800 more than the federal poverty line. After five years, I moved back home to the DC area nearly bankrupt with a pile of credit card debt because I had to charge groceries to even eat, among other things. By moving, I almost doubled my salary, but I also doubled my living expenses. These past eight years, since the 2008 crash, our salaries have been frozen, until finally this past year, a courageous new superintendent took on our Board of Supervisors and fought hard to bring us back in line with the market.

    When looking at average salary statistics, it's important to realize one thing. Fifty percent of teachers leave the profession by year five (see my post about respect and you will see why) to be replaced by other young teachers. While there may be people on the high end bringing up that average salary, the vast majority of our young teachers are at the very low end of the scale, and in most states/localities, they are making a near poverty wage.

    You also need to realize that if you know a teacher who seems to be living just fine because she gets to take a trip to a fancy place, she's probably married in a two income household. Those of us who are single, even on the higher end of the scale, struggle. My one trip a year is to one Pearl Jam show, and I save money in a jar to pay for it.

    thanks for proving my point. so you work 180-194 days per year. most office professionals are closer to 250 days per year (5 days per week for 52 weeks minus holidays). so while salaries for teachers are only 77% of other professionals the other professionals work roughly 16%-20% more days per year...as i have been saying since the 1st post.
    Aren't most office jobs also 8 hours a day? I just did some student teaching at my local Elementary school and both teachers I worked with said they arrive at 7:30, one said they get out at 5 and the other said 5:30, maybe a little earlier on Fridays. So that's at least 9 hours a day, so at least 5 extra hours a week over your average 9-5 job.

    They also both said that they have to take home homework and tests/quizzes to grade at least a couple times a week. And this was a kindergarten and a 3rd grade teacher, I can't imagine high school level where they have to grade 10 page papers and 20 step math problems.

    I get the point your trying to make here, but you're looking at it as a black/white issue when it's just not. A normal school day is something like 8-4 and that seems to be the only thing your taking into account. My girlfriend works 40 hours a week at an engineering firm and that means when she hits 40 hours she's out the door until next week, that's a nice easy black/white calculation. Teachers don't barge in the classroom door at 8 and then walk out to their cars as their students head to the busses at 4. It's just not a fair comparison to the average office job.
    i honestly don't know any professional today who only works 40 hours and who is 'off the clock at 5:00'. with today's technology and global economy everyone i know checks and answers emails and does work whenever needed. i even know people who are required to take cell phones on vacations and answer emails if necessary. maybe your girlfriend is quite lucky in her job but that is by far the norm today. in fact there are studies out there that with technology we aren't 'off' enough in this country anymore.
    Maybe it's just because we live in different areas but I can't think of a single person in my family or my group of friends that has a professional office type job that requires more than maybe 41 or 42 hours a week. My uncle (who is also my best friend) has a very high importance supervisor job at API Technologies (they work on defense projects for the government), he gets to work at 8 everyday and he usually calls me on his way home at about 4:15 to ask what I'm up to for the evening. Yes he will get the occasional email but it takes him 5-10 minutes tops, hardly takes away a chunk of his evenings or vacations. My girlfriend's sister and father also work with her at the same firm. My girlfriend is very low on the totem pole, her sister is lower-middle management and her father has one of the highest positions there, they all go to work in the same car and therefore work the same 40 hours, her father ignores any emails he gets outside of work hours.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 20,211
    It seems that conditions/pay for teachers varies across the country and obviously for other professions as well. What the article posted at the beginning of this shows is that overall, teaching wages have fallen and in areas where this is already a problem, the situation is only getting worse. If some of you live in an area where teachers are well paid and have a lot of time off, I strongly suspect you are in the minority and you are perhaps rather fortunate. My experience is that as professionals, they are mostly underpaid for the time they put in. I don't take that lightly as well educated kids are the key to a better future for all. Education in America is not fairing well.
    We're living on the edge of something big. It's a fantastic time in history to be alive.
    AMT, 1.25.15, 00:36 hrs.
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.
  • Critics of teachers simply fail to acknowledge the challenges of the job, the amount of work necessary to do a good job, and the lack of respect the public and employer offer the profession.

    In my province, the teaching population is now over 80% women. Most men are choosing trades and various other professions where they make much more money and don't deal with the bullshit teachers do on a daily basis. This isn't fantastic. We need strong male teachers as much as we need strong female teachers.

    The job is not 8-3. The prep work and meetings that occur outside of that time frame is endless and for the most part, teachers are willing to do that unrecognized work; however, they become very agitated and feel very disrespected when fools ignore the obvious efforts outside of class time. Even lunch hours and breaks are typically spent with kids that need help or just need a friendly voice by the majority of teachers I work with.

    The profession is in the tank. I think the smoking gun supporting such a statement is the fact that the profession is no longer attractive to many potentially great teachers. There's a reason that 50% of teachers quit within 5 years of teaching. Even people going through 5-6 years of university to enter the profession don't fully understand what the job entails- let alone the bar stool critic that thinks he knows everything because of a negative experience he had in grade 5.

    What Dreams... I feel your pain- I experience it as well- but do better for your students. No kid should have to wait a month to get their paper back. You're a well-worded person and from the sounds of it a natural teacher- choose to be excellent regardless of how ignorant others can be towards your efforts.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • FreeFree Posts: 3,562
    edited August 2016
    I work with teachers, I know exactly what I'm talking about. And as a parent, the fingers are pointed from both directions. As long as parents won't work with teachers for the benefit of their child, and as long as teachers point fingers at parents dismissing progress on the student's behalf, the big loser here is the STUDENTS. Teacher unions protect teachers and only teachers. Bad parents have given them a horrible stereotype. Especially when education is politicized and common core ties all hands on the teacher's behalf.

    Brian, the problem is how individual states, unions, the fed govt, have ALL forgotten how to really educate kids. Spoiled, well paid teachers give good teachers a bad rap. States that pamper and protect teachers vs states that don't pay enough is wrong. There needs to be more of a balance with priority not on teachers but on the students.
    Post edited by Free on
  • Free said:

    I work with teachers, I know exactly what I'm talking about. And as a parent, the fingers are pointed from both directions. As long as parents won't work with teachers for the benefit of their child, and as long as teachers point fingers at parents dismissing progress on the student's behalf, the big loser here is the STUDENTS. Teacher unions protect teachers and only teachers. Bad parents have given them a horrible stereotype. Especially when education is politicized and common core ties all hands on the teacher's behalf.

    Brian, the problem is how individual states, unions, the fed govt, have ALL forgotten how to really euchre a kid. Spoiled, well paid teachers give good teachers a bad rap.

    Bad teachers do have a negative impact on the profession, but so do armchair critics like you.

    You're a big part of the problem whether you care to admit it or not.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • FreeFree Posts: 3,562

    Free said:

    I work with teachers, I know exactly what I'm talking about. And as a parent, the fingers are pointed from both directions. As long as parents won't work with teachers for the benefit of their child, and as long as teachers point fingers at parents dismissing progress on the student's behalf, the big loser here is the STUDENTS. Teacher unions protect teachers and only teachers. Bad parents have given them a horrible stereotype. Especially when education is politicized and common core ties all hands on the teacher's behalf.

    Brian, the problem is how individual states, unions, the fed govt, have ALL forgotten how to really euchre a kid. Spoiled, well paid teachers give good teachers a bad rap.

    Bad teachers do have a negative impact on the profession, but so do armchair critics like you.

    You're a big part of the problem whether you care to admit it or not.
    Tell that to Whatdreams, who has in his contract he does not have to work after 2:30 every day, parent emails not a priority and students get papers back a month later.
  • eddieceddiec Posts: 2,429
    Free said:

    Free said:

    I work with teachers, I know exactly what I'm talking about. And as a parent, the fingers are pointed from both directions. As long as parents won't work with teachers for the benefit of their child, and as long as teachers point fingers at parents dismissing progress on the student's behalf, the big loser here is the STUDENTS. Teacher unions protect teachers and only teachers. Bad parents have given them a horrible stereotype. Especially when education is politicized and common core ties all hands on the teacher's behalf.

    Brian, the problem is how individual states, unions, the fed govt, have ALL forgotten how to really euchre a kid. Spoiled, well paid teachers give good teachers a bad rap.

    Bad teachers do have a negative impact on the profession, but so do armchair critics like you.

    You're a big part of the problem whether you care to admit it or not.
    Tell that to Whatdreams, who has in his contract he does not have to work after 2:30 every day, parent emails not a priority and students get papers back a month later.
    Honestly, I could care less that he doesn't respond to parents or that he takes his time grading papers. The most important aspect of teaching is what goes on in the classroom.
  • Free said:

    Free said:

    I work with teachers, I know exactly what I'm talking about. And as a parent, the fingers are pointed from both directions. As long as parents won't work with teachers for the benefit of their child, and as long as teachers point fingers at parents dismissing progress on the student's behalf, the big loser here is the STUDENTS. Teacher unions protect teachers and only teachers. Bad parents have given them a horrible stereotype. Especially when education is politicized and common core ties all hands on the teacher's behalf.

    Brian, the problem is how individual states, unions, the fed govt, have ALL forgotten how to really euchre a kid. Spoiled, well paid teachers give good teachers a bad rap.

    Bad teachers do have a negative impact on the profession, but so do armchair critics like you.

    You're a big part of the problem whether you care to admit it or not.
    Tell that to Whatdreams, who has in his contract he does not have to work after 2:30 every day, parent emails not a priority and students get papers back a month later.
    I did.

    As much as you make it seem, What Dream's mentality is not the norm for teachers; however, your mentality is the norm for the uninformed public (you keep speaking as if you do have intimate knowledge of the job, but obviously you dont).
    "My brain's a good brain!"
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