Who here has direct experience with AA or any other 12 step program which was based off AA?
I read this article back when it was first published. Soem of its premises are wrong and I need to read it again to give both my opinion and the facts of my experince while also sharing what I believe is the truth of where i see the error in the article.
I have never been addicted. But my grandfather was a raging alcoholic for 40 years and he kicked it by going to a Betty Ford Centre, which uses holistic and very individualized healing methods, apparently.
Good for him. Did he choose to stay sober?
Looked briefly online at BFC trying see what they describe as holistic. Just curious.
He did indeed stay sober (he's dead now (that's okay - he died sober, but that never made him a good grandpa or father TBH)). He became addicted to caffeine-free Coca-Cola, lol, and also smoked like 3 packs of Camels a day, but he never drank again.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
The meds now available and the clinical psychology is far better than when AA was first developed.
Oh I had no idea there was medication available! So is that something where you'd have to see your regular doctor or you'd have to see a shrink and do therapy to get it?
The meds now available and the clinical psychology is far better than when AA was first developed.
Oh I had no idea there was medication available! So is that something where you'd have to see your regular doctor or you'd have to see a shrink and do therapy to get it?
That I dont know. But there are meds to block certain effects.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I will have 1 year sobriety in 10 days. While I did not chose a 12 step program I chose some parts of it in doing things my own way. The biggest was to understand that I can't control myself in some regards and thus to understand never again really means never again. Any while the people are not trained therapists it was people like Mickey that used their experiences to help me in the beginning as I figured things out. So while I do not go to meetings I would give them major kudos in helping me. That is what the program is really about. People who have been there and done that who understand what you are going through. Not everyone needs to go through the steps to get help from the program. Sometimes you just need to see people who are winning this war inside them to let you know you can as well. AA gives you a place to just understand you can do this.
Tom Brady & Donald Trump, BFF's Fuckus rules all Rob Seattle
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
Ani, your whole post but especially the last two sentences got me a bit teary. Thank you for your eloquent candor.
My brother had addiction issues, died way to young...multiple times in rehab/AA ... they all use this complete bullshit program, that was created by some holy roller in the 20's. I've read enough articles on the 12 program to know it should be illegal and secular based treatments that are proven effective should be sanctioned by the health care system.
Nothing is for everyone. But there is something for everyone.. .I'm proud of this sentence
The thing is ... people who seek treatment should have reasonable assurance of a successful outcome. People die because this program does not work and most clinics do not offer alternatives...
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,690
My brother had addiction issues, died way to young...multiple times in rehab/AA ... they all use this complete bullshit program, that was created by some holy roller in the 20's. I've read enough articles on the 12 program to know it should be illegal and secular based treatments that are proven effective should be sanctioned by the health care system.
my 12 1/2 years in AA state quite clearly it isnt a "complete bullshit" program.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,690
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I think AA does work for more than it doesn t Many professional sports people here in UK have been successful . I think it's even harder if you have wealth to quit. And the Will to quit is the importance here. I know I NEED to quit but as of yet I haven't wanted to enough. When you enter a programme the will is the most important. Alcoholics in my opinion fail as many times as they want to. My drinking is my problem and I'm responsible for it not anyone else so if I fail it's my fault completely. Not anyone one or organisation
brixton 93
astoria 06
albany 06
hartford 06
reading 06
barcelona 06
paris 06
wembley 07
dusseldorf 07
nijmegen 07
this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
Nothing is for everyone. But there is something for everyone.. .I'm proud of this sentence
The thing is ... people who seek treatment should have reasonable assurance of a successful outcome. People die because this program does not work and most clinics do not offer alternatives...
My friends who both have 35 years of sobriety would beg to differ
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,690
“There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation”
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,690
I don't think I could do it (I don't need it, fortunately, but I'm just saying IF I did...). I'm an Atheist. Not just a passive one, either. The whole god factor in AA (or whatever you can think of to replace god, so they say) wouldn't fly for me. I wouldn't even be able to tolerate that whole side of it. The whole 'give yourself to a higher power' factor. I know they have sort of attempted to work around this issue for those who don't go for religion by trying to say it's "spiritual, not religious", but I think they fail at doing that.
I do, however, think it's helpful to get together with others who understand what you're going through. Having an understanding support system without judgment seems like it would be very important.
a former member here and an avowed athiest celebrates 9 years today via AA.
I attend meeting with this guy who has 25 yrs plus through AA and is an avowed Athiest.
Atheism doesnt preclude being able to be helped by the AA principles inside or outside the organization.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I have 21 years 9 months 28 days sober through AA. I have an opinion on this but The Giants are playing and I want to say it properly.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,683
AA seems to work for some but not for others. I've seen the whole gamut. I know people who went through AA and have been sober for many years, a few who learned to not be hard-core alcoholics but now manage to have an occasional drink and not abuse, some who always go back to drinking and one lovely young woman who literally drank herself to death. The success rate seems to be all over the map. I'm glad for those who found success.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
AA has a an extremely poor track record. Those facts are not in dispute. Some have success, most do not...there is more than enough evidence that proves AA and rehab is are fraudulant.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,683
AA has a an extremely poor track record. Those facts are not in dispute. Some have success, most do not...there is more than enough evidence that proves AA and rehab is are fraudulant.
I've never heard AA referred to as fraudulent. How so?
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Brian, do agree society changes? Would you agree that as life goes on year after year we need to change and be adaptable? Then why can we not expect that aa and rehab needs to change. Remember when AA was started by a holy roller, almost everyone bought into religion and god. In 2018, god and religion are not a big part of people’s lives that much anymore. Also, because I lost a brother at such a young age partly to due addiction, I spent countless articles in which they state AA has a success rate between 8% - 15%...that is fraudulent.
In many duristictions rehab clinics are under no obligation to report their success.
Also, if you have a particular cancer ... the oncologist you see will customize the treatment that is best. AA and rehab clinics go by the 12 step bs model. Maybe it’s time to customize treatment for people with addictions that will work best for said patient. Just sayin’.
People with addictions go to these places to get help. They are not getting good help. The 12 step program is a complete fraud. I can not believe any atheist would defend such a mockery. People are dying because rehab clinics are to LAZY and GREEDY to really help people.
Its great that it’s helps the few that it helps. But maybe as a society, we can strive to find better ways to help people with addictions that has a good success rate.
im an atheist, absolutely no way would I submit to a higher power ... there is no higher power.
Post edited by Meltdown99 on
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,690
Brian, do agree society changes? Would you agree that as life goes on year after year we need to change and be adaptable? Then why can we not expect that aa and rehab needs to change. Remember when AA was started by a holy roller, almost everyone bought into religion and god. In 2018, god and religion are not a big part of people’s lives that much anymore. Also, because I lost a brother at such a young age partly to due addiction, I spent countless articles in which they state AA has a success rate between 8% - 15%...that is fraudulent.
In many duristictions rehab clinics are under no obligation to report their success.
Also, if you have a particular cancer ... the oncologist you see will customize the treatment that is best. AA and rehab clinics go by the 12 step bs model. Maybe it’s time to customize treatment for people with addictions that will work best for said patient. Just sayin’.
People with addictions go to these places to get help. They are not getting good help. The 12 step program is a complete fraud. I can not believe any atheist would defend such a mockery. People are dying because rehab clinics are to LAZY and GREEDY to really help people.
Its great that it’s helps the few that it helps. But maybe as a society, we can strive to find better ways to help people with addictions that has a good success rate.
im an atheist, absolutely no way would I submit to a higher power ... there is no higher power.
started by a holy roller? get your facts straight before talking shit.
doesnt matter anyway. your opinion isnt getting and keeping me sober. the work I do within the scope of the 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous is.
Thats right , my actually doing the work. For that, I get to go to bed tonight sober.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,683
Brian, do agree society changes? Would you agree that as life goes on year after year we need to change and be adaptable? Then why can we not expect that aa and rehab needs to change. Remember when AA was started by a holy roller, almost everyone bought into religion and god. In 2018, god and religion are not a big part of people’s lives that much anymore. Also, because I lost a brother at such a young age partly to due addiction, I spent countless articles in which they state AA has a success rate between 8% - 15%...that is fraudulent.
In many duristictions rehab clinics are under no obligation to report their success.
Also, if you have a particular cancer ... the oncologist you see will customize the treatment that is best. AA and rehab clinics go by the 12 step bs model. Maybe it’s time to customize treatment for people with addictions that will work best for said patient. Just sayin’.
People with addictions go to these places to get help. They are not getting good help. The 12 step program is a complete fraud. I can not believe any atheist would defend such a mockery. People are dying because rehab clinics are to LAZY and GREEDY to really help people.
Its great that it’s helps the few that it helps. But maybe as a society, we can strive to find better ways to help people with addictions that has a good success rate.
im an atheist, absolutely no way would I submit to a higher power ... there is no higher power.
fraud·u·lent
/ˈfrôjələnt/
adjective
obtained, done by, or involving deception, especially criminal deception.
No, I don't get the connection there.
As for "higher power", I'm skeptical. It's all a mystery to me. But if believing in a higher power helps someone get through something difficult, seems OK by me.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
What if believing in that higher power helps them get through the difficulties of murder, rape, torture and many of the other atrocities committed in the name of religion. Is it still ok. Sure we all say more power to them when the endeavour seems noble and harmless. We seem to sing a different tune when the faith is used in other less valiant pursuits. I know a guy who quit drinking through AA. Noble..good..bla bla bla. Same guy sells pyramid schemes that go nowhere. Talks about women in perverse ways. Smokes anything he can. Alcohol had to go because it was costing him his livelihood. But selling bullshit schemes to friends family and anyone else sits well with this religious dude. I guess when all you have to do is ask forgiveness and it comes no more questions asked then all is good under heaven on earth.
I remember when, yeah. I swore I knew everything, oh yeah.
We all have a choice . Some make a different one to others. Addiction is everywhere and to expect someone to "cure"you is unreasonable . Whatever the help or scheme or establishment. It's souley the individuals choice and desicion to work harder than they ever have on the addiction if not it will fail. I too can't see how fraud is involved. At all. Willpower and learned techniques are needed.
brixton 93
astoria 06
albany 06
hartford 06
reading 06
barcelona 06
paris 06
wembley 07
dusseldorf 07
nijmegen 07
this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
Brian, do agree society changes? Would you agree that as life goes on year after year we need to change and be adaptable? Then why can we not expect that aa and rehab needs to change. Remember when AA was started by a holy roller, almost everyone bought into religion and god. In 2018, god and religion are not a big part of people’s lives that much anymore. Also, because I lost a brother at such a young age partly to due addiction, I spent countless articles in which they state AA has a success rate between 8% - 15%...that is fraudulent.
In many duristictions rehab clinics are under no obligation to report their success.
Also, if you have a particular cancer ... the oncologist you see will customize the treatment that is best. AA and rehab clinics go by the 12 step bs model. Maybe it’s time to customize treatment for people with addictions that will work best for said patient. Just sayin’.
People with addictions go to these places to get help. They are not getting good help. The 12 step program is a complete fraud. I can not believe any atheist would defend such a mockery. People are dying because rehab clinics are to LAZY and GREEDY to really help people.
Its great that it’s helps the few that it helps. But maybe as a society, we can strive to find better ways to help people with addictions that has a good success rate.
im an atheist, absolutely no way would I submit to a higher power ... there is no higher power.
AA is a process, not a finish line. each person can use whichever tools they require to be successful. you are too hung up on step 2. I used to think the same. then I did a bit of research on it.
step 2 has nothing to do with god or religion. a "higher power" can be anything you want it to be, anything that inspires you, gives you faith (not necessarily the religious kind), including music, or the sun, or your fucking cat. it doesn't matter. it is something outside of yourself that gives you power.
Addiction is an incurable disease. I am a recovering alcoholic, not a recovered alcoholic. One cannot go to a program and 'learn' how to become a social drinker if they are an alcoholic. Abstinence is the only way that addiction can be put into remission. There was a huge amount of work put into the principles of AA (The Big Book and 12 Steps). The reason why the words 'higher power' are used is because people - just regular drunks who found that getting together with other drunks and talking honestly about what is going on with them - protested the use of the word God in the 12 steps. AA is in no way a faith based program. There are people who are able to get sober through their faith - that is what works for them, and that is not AA. That is what works for them and there ARE some people in AA who would say that that person isn't really sober because AA is the only way. Those people are Big Book thumpers, just like people who say that their religion is the only religion that is real and will lead to eternal life. It's bullshit.
I know that when I was hitting bottom, the last thing that I wanted to do was go to an AA meeting. I thought it was a cult, and I couldn't possibly be one of THOSE people - well I am but it took me awhile to let go of pre-conceived notions and give AA a shot. I also have been in 6 different rehabs - my version of an East Coast tour in the mid to late 90's. All of the rehabs were based upon taking responsibility for the fact that you have an illness (although in the 90's there was still dissent as to whether addiction is hereditary or a disease - it is). There were those people who grabbed onto the idea of having an illness and used that as an excuse for their behavior and took no steps to get better. That would be like a person who has diabetes not monitoring their blood sugar, limiting their diet and taking insulin. You can have a disease and still be responsible for what actions you take to put that disease into remission. In the case of addiction (alcoholism is the same thing - a drug is a drug is a drug), the only way to not be declining is to be abstinent - from all drugs. Because my drug of choice is alcohol, I am not sober if i don't drink but get high everyday. That is not a condemnation of alcohol or pot - plenty of people use them and it doesn't fuck up their lives. If you are an addict, an alcoholic - you don't have 'will power', you cannot get better and use socially, you are never cured or recovered.
Any program that claims to cure addiction is bullshit. And they are only putting people's lives at risk. The promise of not having to give up the substance that you want more than anything is enticing. I hated AA because I did not want to have to give up alcohol for the rest of my life so I found every reason to poke holes in their program and the biggest one is the Third Step - the higher power one. I fought the idea, being a lapsed Catholic I thought the idea that God was going to magically make me better was the most ridiculous thing I had ever heard. But the reason why the words 'higher power' are used are a step away from making this a 'holy roller' program. I was once at a meeting and the speaker explained that there was a bat in his room that was his higher power. That bat was one that had gotten him into trouble on many drunken occasions and his desire to never hurt himself or another person with that bat ever again was the impetus to not pick up. A lot of people consider the rooms of AA as their higher power - which is most powerful for most people - as long as it is the collective help of all the people you are using as your high power and not one single person who has developed a messianic complex. And that happens in AA - there are all kinds of people in AA meetings. People there for the right reason, the wrong reason and not sure what's going on reason. There are assholes and there are kind people. There are people who believe that they way they got sober is the only way and others who believe that, as it says in the Big Book, 'take what works and leave the rest'. Some people take the no mood altering substances to an extreme and believe that if one takes medication for doctor diagnosed and monitored diseases, they are not really sober. There are people who come to a meeting and for whatever reason are able to stay sober from the beginning, there are those who come to meetings and drink for 3 more years going through almost every sponsor possible and then finally get sober (me) and there are those, the majority of people, who never are able to achieve sobriety.
Addiction is a powerful force. If you have never experienced waking up and having your first thought be about drinking have no idea just what a cunning and devious disease it is. I have bought alcohol when my mind was screaming simultaneously 'do it' and 'please don't do this' and cried the entire time I drank said alcohol. It sucks and a lot of people die from it. I have lost my father, brother and sister both directly and indirectly to the disease - in their 40's, 50's and 60's. I took my brother to meetings with me. He did not want to be an alcoholic, he did not want his life to be ruined by the disease, he started going to rehabs in his teen age years and was never able to get out of the grips of the disease - he died at 41. Why did AA work for me and not for him. I have absolutely no answer to that question. Why do some people survive cancer and others do not - same stage, same type, same treatment but some die and some live. Who knows. I have no guarantee that I will never pick up a drink again, at which point my body would react as if I had been drinking for the past 22 years and quickly progress towards death. I have today and that is all I have. Actually, all I have is this moment.
The way that I was able to get past the higher power idea which seems to rattle so many was a long battle against it - but I battled it with other alcoholics, I listened to their perspective, I voiced my opinion that it was ridiculous to think an amorphous being would make me sober and I was treated with understanding because most people who are in AA have a problem with it. I have never met more atheists, agnostics, non-practicing whatevers than in AA. Yet those who get sober find a way to get over themselves and just let go of the power. I did not have the answers - i was extremely capable of many things, but I was not capable of staying sober. I only knew how to get drunk. I spent a lot of time as a person who didn't want to live as they were living and wanted to not want to drink but wasn't there. I was going through a divorce at the time and I wanted to countersue the bastard and was full of self righteous anger. I had someone tell me that I had to let it go. Let him say what he wanted and just let it go because it was eating me alive. As long as I was holding onto this self righteous 'I know what is the right thing to do better than anyone', I was preventing myself from getting sober. I finally just gave up my power. I was not going to be supervisor of my sobriety as I wanted. I had to admit and really believe that I had no idea how to be sober and was only good, really really good, at getting drunk. I was good at deceiving and hiding and minimizing and making excuses but I needed to get humble and stop the fucking debate and realize that I was going to take a chance and do it someone else's way. A way that had worked for a lot of people. Not all people, but a lot of people. I just had to get out of my own way and my higher power was NOT myself. I am not even sure what it is. Positive energy, the love of a stranger, talking to my dad who died a month after I had finally gotten sober, having a sponsor who I told the truth, knowing that I don't have all the answers, and giving up the idea that if I was really pissed about someone something or some idea, it was probably because it was hitting too close to home and I had to accept that things were exactly as they should be whether I liked how they were or not. I had to give up false pride and stop the debate.
This is a life and death battle. If someone who does not suffer from alcoholism wants to put down AA, I can't do a damn thing about it. It is none of my business what anyone thinks of me or what they think of my choices. It does bother be that people who have no stake in this game might influence someone that needs AA and will be turned off because of their opinion. Higher power is but one part of the AA program. Just think of the power of a group of people coming together because of the love of a band. Why would that idea not work when people are dealing with a life and death disease. The power of being amongst people who know exactly what you are feeling, how much you hate yourself, how embarrassed you are about things you have said or done and things you cannot even remember - it is the power of acceptance. So a bunch of drunks got together and made some recommendations to follow so that others might try their way of getting sober. It finally worked for me and I will hopefully have 22 years of sobriety in November. I have never wanted to drink since letting go of my ego and listening to someone else. I don't know how or why I have been able to stay sober. I haven't been to a meeting in a long time and I feel guilty about that because there are women who need a sponsor with time and I am not giving back - that is part of the steps - giving back. It is not a religious program. It IS a spiritual program and that spirituality is different for everyone. I do not stay sober due to will power - I have absolutely no will power. So how the hell do I not want to drink when I spent my life prior to this drinking as a part of every aspect of my life. I LOVED to drink, it just did not love me. Something keeps me sober and I don't think about that something. Mentally masturbating why and how will lead me to drink. Self righteousness will lead me to drink. Not trying to explain AA to people who think it is a crock will lead me to drink. There are other ways to get sober and whatever works for someone then that is one more life saved and I celebrate that life. But programs that promise to cure addiction are a danger.
AA got me sober and I am not in anyway religious, I am not special, I am not perfect, I do not follow the 12 steps at all times but I do not pick up a drink nor do i ponder picking up. It is not who I am anymore. And that is a fucking miracle.
Comments
LIVEFOOTSTEPS.ORG/USER/?USR=435
I'm doing what I found that works for me.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
LIVEFOOTSTEPS.ORG/USER/?USR=435
Fuckus rules all
Rob
Seattle
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/12-step-nurse-addictions-1.4805538?cmp=rss
My brother had addiction issues, died way to young...multiple times in rehab/AA ... they all use this complete bullshit program, that was created by some holy roller in the 20's. I've read enough articles on the 12 program to know it should be illegal and secular based treatments that are proven effective should be sanctioned by the health care system.
astoria 06
albany 06
hartford 06
reading 06
barcelona 06
paris 06
wembley 07
dusseldorf 07
nijmegen 07
this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Many professional sports people here in UK have been successful . I think it's even harder if you have wealth to quit. And the Will to quit is the importance here. I know I NEED to quit but as of yet I haven't wanted to enough. When you enter a programme the will is the most important.
Alcoholics in my opinion fail as many times as they want to. My drinking is my problem and I'm responsible for it not anyone else so if I fail it's my fault completely. Not anyone one or organisation
astoria 06
albany 06
hartford 06
reading 06
barcelona 06
paris 06
wembley 07
dusseldorf 07
nijmegen 07
this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
astoria 06
albany 06
hartford 06
reading 06
barcelona 06
paris 06
wembley 07
dusseldorf 07
nijmegen 07
this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
In many duristictions rehab clinics are under no obligation to report their success.
Also, if you have a particular cancer ... the oncologist you see will customize the treatment that is best. AA and rehab clinics go by the 12 step bs model. Maybe it’s time to customize treatment for people with addictions that will work best for said patient. Just sayin’.
People with addictions go to these places to get help. They are not getting good help. The 12 step program is a complete fraud. I can not believe any atheist would defend such a mockery. People are dying because rehab clinics are to LAZY and GREEDY to really help people.
Its great that it’s helps the few that it helps. But maybe as a society, we can strive to find better ways to help people with addictions that has a good success rate.
im an atheist, absolutely no way would I submit to a higher power ... there is no higher power.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
What if believing in that higher power helps them get through the difficulties of murder, rape, torture and many of the other atrocities committed in the name of religion.
Is it still ok.
Sure we all say more power to them when the endeavour seems noble and harmless. We seem to sing a different tune when the faith is used in other less valiant pursuits.
I know a guy who quit drinking through AA.
Noble..good..bla bla bla. Same guy sells pyramid schemes that go nowhere. Talks about women in perverse ways. Smokes anything he can. Alcohol had to go because it was costing him his livelihood. But selling bullshit schemes to friends family and anyone else sits well with this religious dude.
I guess when all you have to do is ask forgiveness and it comes no more questions asked then all is good under heaven on earth.
astoria 06
albany 06
hartford 06
reading 06
barcelona 06
paris 06
wembley 07
dusseldorf 07
nijmegen 07
this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
step 2 has nothing to do with god or religion. a "higher power" can be anything you want it to be, anything that inspires you, gives you faith (not necessarily the religious kind), including music, or the sun, or your fucking cat. it doesn't matter. it is something outside of yourself that gives you power.
Cheers,
HFD
I know that when I was hitting bottom, the last thing that I wanted to do was go to an AA meeting. I thought it was a cult, and I couldn't possibly be one of THOSE people - well I am but it took me awhile to let go of pre-conceived notions and give AA a shot. I also have been in 6 different rehabs - my version of an East Coast tour in the mid to late 90's. All of the rehabs were based upon taking responsibility for the fact that you have an illness (although in the 90's there was still dissent as to whether addiction is hereditary or a disease - it is). There were those people who grabbed onto the idea of having an illness and used that as an excuse for their behavior and took no steps to get better. That would be like a person who has diabetes not monitoring their blood sugar, limiting their diet and taking insulin. You can have a disease and still be responsible for what actions you take to put that disease into remission. In the case of addiction (alcoholism is the same thing - a drug is a drug is a drug), the only way to not be declining is to be abstinent - from all drugs. Because my drug of choice is alcohol, I am not sober if i don't drink but get high everyday. That is not a condemnation of alcohol or pot - plenty of people use them and it doesn't fuck up their lives. If you are an addict, an alcoholic - you don't have 'will power', you cannot get better and use socially, you are never cured or recovered.
Any program that claims to cure addiction is bullshit. And they are only putting people's lives at risk. The promise of not having to give up the substance that you want more than anything is enticing. I hated AA because I did not want to have to give up alcohol for the rest of my life so I found every reason to poke holes in their program and the biggest one is the Third Step - the higher power one. I fought the idea, being a lapsed Catholic I thought the idea that God was going to magically make me better was the most ridiculous thing I had ever heard. But the reason why the words 'higher power' are used are a step away from making this a 'holy roller' program. I was once at a meeting and the speaker explained that there was a bat in his room that was his higher power. That bat was one that had gotten him into trouble on many drunken occasions and his desire to never hurt himself or another person with that bat ever again was the impetus to not pick up. A lot of people consider the rooms of AA as their higher power - which is most powerful for most people - as long as it is the collective help of all the people you are using as your high power and not one single person who has developed a messianic complex. And that happens in AA - there are all kinds of people in AA meetings. People there for the right reason, the wrong reason and not sure what's going on reason. There are assholes and there are kind people. There are people who believe that they way they got sober is the only way and others who believe that, as it says in the Big Book, 'take what works and leave the rest'. Some people take the no mood altering substances to an extreme and believe that if one takes medication for doctor diagnosed and monitored diseases, they are not really sober. There are people who come to a meeting and for whatever reason are able to stay sober from the beginning, there are those who come to meetings and drink for 3 more years going through almost every sponsor possible and then finally get sober (me) and there are those, the majority of people, who never are able to achieve sobriety.
Addiction is a powerful force. If you have never experienced waking up and having your first thought be about drinking have no idea just what a cunning and devious disease it is. I have bought alcohol when my mind was screaming simultaneously 'do it' and 'please don't do this' and cried the entire time I drank said alcohol. It sucks and a lot of people die from it. I have lost my father, brother and sister both directly and indirectly to the disease - in their 40's, 50's and 60's. I took my brother to meetings with me. He did not want to be an alcoholic, he did not want his life to be ruined by the disease, he started going to rehabs in his teen age years and was never able to get out of the grips of the disease - he died at 41. Why did AA work for me and not for him. I have absolutely no answer to that question. Why do some people survive cancer and others do not - same stage, same type, same treatment but some die and some live. Who knows. I have no guarantee that I will never pick up a drink again, at which point my body would react as if I had been drinking for the past 22 years and quickly progress towards death. I have today and that is all I have. Actually, all I have is this moment.
The way that I was able to get past the higher power idea which seems to rattle so many was a long battle against it - but I battled it with other alcoholics, I listened to their perspective, I voiced my opinion that it was ridiculous to think an amorphous being would make me sober and I was treated with understanding because most people who are in AA have a problem with it. I have never met more atheists, agnostics, non-practicing whatevers than in AA. Yet those who get sober find a way to get over themselves and just let go of the power. I did not have the answers - i was extremely capable of many things, but I was not capable of staying sober. I only knew how to get drunk. I spent a lot of time as a person who didn't want to live as they were living and wanted to not want to drink but wasn't there. I was going through a divorce at the time and I wanted to countersue the bastard and was full of self righteous anger. I had someone tell me that I had to let it go. Let him say what he wanted and just let it go because it was eating me alive. As long as I was holding onto this self righteous 'I know what is the right thing to do better than anyone', I was preventing myself from getting sober. I finally just gave up my power. I was not going to be supervisor of my sobriety as I wanted. I had to admit and really believe that I had no idea how to be sober and was only good, really really good, at getting drunk. I was good at deceiving and hiding and minimizing and making excuses but I needed to get humble and stop the fucking debate and realize that I was going to take a chance and do it someone else's way. A way that had worked for a lot of people. Not all people, but a lot of people. I just had to get out of my own way and my higher power was NOT myself. I am not even sure what it is. Positive energy, the love of a stranger, talking to my dad who died a month after I had finally gotten sober, having a sponsor who I told the truth, knowing that I don't have all the answers, and giving up the idea that if I was really pissed about someone something or some idea, it was probably because it was hitting too close to home and I had to accept that things were exactly as they should be whether I liked how they were or not. I had to give up false pride and stop the debate.
cont....
This is a life and death battle. If someone who does not suffer from alcoholism wants to put down AA, I can't do a damn thing about it. It is none of my business what anyone thinks of me or what they think of my choices. It does bother be that people who have no stake in this game might influence someone that needs AA and will be turned off because of their opinion. Higher power is but one part of the AA program. Just think of the power of a group of people coming together because of the love of a band. Why would that idea not work when people are dealing with a life and death disease. The power of being amongst people who know exactly what you are feeling, how much you hate yourself, how embarrassed you are about things you have said or done and things you cannot even remember - it is the power of acceptance. So a bunch of drunks got together and made some recommendations to follow so that others might try their way of getting sober. It finally worked for me and I will hopefully have 22 years of sobriety in November. I have never wanted to drink since letting go of my ego and listening to someone else. I don't know how or why I have been able to stay sober. I haven't been to a meeting in a long time and I feel guilty about that because there are women who need a sponsor with time and I am not giving back - that is part of the steps - giving back. It is not a religious program. It IS a spiritual program and that spirituality is different for everyone. I do not stay sober due to will power - I have absolutely no will power. So how the hell do I not want to drink when I spent my life prior to this drinking as a part of every aspect of my life. I LOVED to drink, it just did not love me. Something keeps me sober and I don't think about that something. Mentally masturbating why and how will lead me to drink. Self righteousness will lead me to drink. Not trying to explain AA to people who think it is a crock will lead me to drink. There are other ways to get sober and whatever works for someone then that is one more life saved and I celebrate that life. But programs that promise to cure addiction are a danger.
AA got me sober and I am not in anyway religious, I am not special, I am not perfect, I do not follow the 12 steps at all times but I do not pick up a drink nor do i ponder picking up. It is not who I am anymore. And that is a fucking miracle.