Canadian Politics Redux

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  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 41,849
    fife said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    And none died, which is a huge improvement. This time last year, before a bunch of measures were brought in, like make shift OD centres, training in the community, etc, this many ODs in one might would have probably resulted in 20 OD deaths. So we're moving in the right direction. The BC Liberals SUCKED when it came to this issue, and the BC NDP are doing a much better job now, and it's showing.
    I think we are going to see this continue, for me this is a reason for safe injection sites.  the more we push substance users into the shadows the worst this will get. 
    I just hope the new PC government in Ontario doesn't kill the SIS here.

    on another point, while I know I may be a minority i am still an advocate for legalization of all drugs.  I believe this could lead to more safer and cleaner drugs in our country
    I'm also an advocate for that. Prohibition simply does not work when it comes to drugs or alcohol. Ever. Wars on drugs are a complete waste of time and energy and money.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 1,843
    If you use hard narcotics that are known to cause overdose...then that is on the user.  I blame politicians for a lot of things.  Other than the opiod crisis and marijuana being illegal, they are not responsible for these users...
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 41,849
    edited July 30
    If you use hard narcotics that are known to cause overdose...then that is on the user.  I blame politicians for a lot of things.  Other than the opiod crisis and marijuana being illegal, they are not responsible for these users...
    That simply doesn't work at all in a country that has a universal healthcare system.... nor for anyone with a sliver of empathy plus an understanding of how addiction works.... In country that treats it citizens very inhumanely, yeah, sure, great theory. 
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 1,843
    OPSEU President outraged over potential Ontario privatization of cannabis sales

    https://www.thegrowthop.com/cannabis-news/cannabis-legalization/opseu-president-warren-smokey-thomas-outraged-over-potential-ontario-privitazation-of-cannabis-sales?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1532966231

    The only person smoking anything is this clown who just saw a bunch of overpaid bloated government jobs go up smoke.  Hopefully the LCBO is next to be sold off...
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 41,849
    Wtf? So now legal private business is somehow organized crime in that guy's mind??? That makes zero sense. What an idiot.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJ_Soul said:
    Yup, severe psychosis exists, it can be the cause of extreme violence, no fault can be laid on the mentally ill person whose actions were completely beyond his or her control, and there are drugs to control it. The main issue is ensuring that someone with such psychosis keeps taking the drugs.... This isn't that hard to do - the authorities just need to do their jobs properly and design the system to work.

    He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 41,849
    edited July 30
    PJ_Soul said:
    Yup, severe psychosis exists, it can be the cause of extreme violence, no fault can be laid on the mentally ill person whose actions were completely beyond his or her control, and there are drugs to control it. The main issue is ensuring that someone with such psychosis keeps taking the drugs.... This isn't that hard to do - the authorities just need to do their jobs properly and design the system to work.

    He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.
    Yeah, exactly. That's what I was talking about when I brought up designing a system that works - sorry if I wasn't clear. I think anyone with such mental health issues and a violent conviction should have their medications monitored for life. I have nothing against them being treated and released otherwise.
    That said, Vince Li may never do anything wrong every again. Let's hope so.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Yup, severe psychosis exists, it can be the cause of extreme violence, no fault can be laid on the mentally ill person whose actions were completely beyond his or her control, and there are drugs to control it. The main issue is ensuring that someone with such psychosis keeps taking the drugs.... This isn't that hard to do - the authorities just need to do their jobs properly and design the system to work.

    He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.
    Yeah, exactly. That's what I was talking about when I brought up designing a system that works - sorry if I wasn't clear. I think anyone with such mental health issues and a violent conviction should have their medications monitored for life. I have nothing against them being treated and released otherwise.
    That said, Vince Li may never do anything wrong every again. Let's hope so.

    For so many reasons let's hope so.

    And lost in this discussion- again- is the fact that there was a victim brutally murdered and a family that has to live with this fact.

    I've come a long way with regards to how I view Li, but I am far from thinking he is the type of individual fit to live among everyone else unsupervised. Given what transpired that evening, it is not a stretch to suggest he should remain supervised in a hospital setting for a long time. We went 'all in' on his rehabilitation very quickly. He didn't have to spend too long at all convincing the powers that be that he was a cured man. 
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 41,849
    edited July 30
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Yup, severe psychosis exists, it can be the cause of extreme violence, no fault can be laid on the mentally ill person whose actions were completely beyond his or her control, and there are drugs to control it. The main issue is ensuring that someone with such psychosis keeps taking the drugs.... This isn't that hard to do - the authorities just need to do their jobs properly and design the system to work.

    He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.
    Yeah, exactly. That's what I was talking about when I brought up designing a system that works - sorry if I wasn't clear. I think anyone with such mental health issues and a violent conviction should have their medications monitored for life. I have nothing against them being treated and released otherwise.
    That said, Vince Li may never do anything wrong every again. Let's hope so.

    For so many reasons let's hope so.

    And lost in this discussion- again- is the fact that there was a victim brutally murdered and a family that has to live with this fact.

    I've come a long way with regards to how I view Li, but I am far from thinking he is the type of individual fit to live among everyone else unsupervised. Given what transpired that evening, it is not a stretch to suggest he should remain supervised in a hospital setting for a long time. We went 'all in' on his rehabilitation very quickly. He didn't have to spend too long at all convincing the powers that be that he was a cured man. 
    I never feel like the victim is lost in the discussion ever. The importance of the victims are always implied IMO.
    I also feel genuine sorrow for Vince Li though. I can no better imagine what pain he has to live with, knowing what he did, than I can with the victim's family. And from everything I've read, he did not go about "convincing" people of anything - I have only read that he has always put himself at the mercy of those dealing with him, whatever may come. He has never acted like he "deserves" to be free from what I've seen. He simply has done the best he could and went along with his lawyers' advice. I just wish someone would make sure his illness doesn't lead to him going off his meds, as such illnesses so often do.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Yup, severe psychosis exists, it can be the cause of extreme violence, no fault can be laid on the mentally ill person whose actions were completely beyond his or her control, and there are drugs to control it. The main issue is ensuring that someone with such psychosis keeps taking the drugs.... This isn't that hard to do - the authorities just need to do their jobs properly and design the system to work.

    He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.
    Yeah, exactly. That's what I was talking about when I brought up designing a system that works - sorry if I wasn't clear. I think anyone with such mental health issues and a violent conviction should have their medications monitored for life. I have nothing against them being treated and released otherwise.
    That said, Vince Li may never do anything wrong every again. Let's hope so.

    For so many reasons let's hope so.

    And lost in this discussion- again- is the fact that there was a victim brutally murdered and a family that has to live with this fact.

    I've come a long way with regards to how I view Li, but I am far from thinking he is the type of individual fit to live among everyone else unsupervised. Given what transpired that evening, it is not a stretch to suggest he should remain supervised in a hospital setting for a long time. We went 'all in' on his rehabilitation very quickly. He didn't have to spend too long at all convincing the powers that be that he was a cured man. 
    I never feel like the victim is lost in the discussion ever. The importance of the victims are always implied IMO.
    I also feel genuine sorrow for Vince Li though. I can no better imagine what pain he has to live with, knowing what he did, than I can with the victim's family. I just wish someone would make sure his illness doesn't lead to him going off his meds, as such illnesses so often do.

    I'd be with you on feeling something towards Li if he wasn't so savage and brutal in his attack. It's one thing to hear some voices telling you to kill some random guy sitting beside you on a bus... it's another to mutilate and eat the random guy after you do it. What was telling him to do that?

    To my way of thinking... this was an unparalleled gore frenzy. People with schizophrenia can do some brutal things, but this was beyond explainable. Decapitation. Eyeballs in the pockets. Waving a severed head at people. Eating parts.

    The horrific capacity of this man in the throes of an episode is simply too extreme.   
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 41,849
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Yup, severe psychosis exists, it can be the cause of extreme violence, no fault can be laid on the mentally ill person whose actions were completely beyond his or her control, and there are drugs to control it. The main issue is ensuring that someone with such psychosis keeps taking the drugs.... This isn't that hard to do - the authorities just need to do their jobs properly and design the system to work.

    He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.
    Yeah, exactly. That's what I was talking about when I brought up designing a system that works - sorry if I wasn't clear. I think anyone with such mental health issues and a violent conviction should have their medications monitored for life. I have nothing against them being treated and released otherwise.
    That said, Vince Li may never do anything wrong every again. Let's hope so.

    For so many reasons let's hope so.

    And lost in this discussion- again- is the fact that there was a victim brutally murdered and a family that has to live with this fact.

    I've come a long way with regards to how I view Li, but I am far from thinking he is the type of individual fit to live among everyone else unsupervised. Given what transpired that evening, it is not a stretch to suggest he should remain supervised in a hospital setting for a long time. We went 'all in' on his rehabilitation very quickly. He didn't have to spend too long at all convincing the powers that be that he was a cured man. 
    I never feel like the victim is lost in the discussion ever. The importance of the victims are always implied IMO.
    I also feel genuine sorrow for Vince Li though. I can no better imagine what pain he has to live with, knowing what he did, than I can with the victim's family. I just wish someone would make sure his illness doesn't lead to him going off his meds, as such illnesses so often do.

    I'd be with you on feeling something towards Li if he wasn't so savage and brutal in his attack. It's one thing to hear some voices telling you to kill some random guy sitting beside you on a bus... it's another to mutilate and eat the random guy after you do it. What was telling him to do that?

    To my way of thinking... this was an unparalleled gore frenzy. People with schizophrenia can do some brutal things, but this was beyond explainable. Decapitation. Eyeballs in the pockets. Waving a severed head at people. Eating parts.

    The horrific capacity of this man in the throes of an episode is simply too extreme.   
    The same voice that told him to kill him at all told him to do that of course. I frankly have no idea how or why you think that brutality diminishes the mental illness argument. To me, it seems to support it further. Sorry, I just don't understand your logic here at all. The brutality of it is "too extreme" for what? I would think it was too extreme for it to not have absolutely everything to do with his terrible illness/psychosis.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 7,965
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Yup, severe psychosis exists, it can be the cause of extreme violence, no fault can be laid on the mentally ill person whose actions were completely beyond his or her control, and there are drugs to control it. The main issue is ensuring that someone with such psychosis keeps taking the drugs.... This isn't that hard to do - the authorities just need to do their jobs properly and design the system to work.

    He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.
    Yeah, exactly. That's what I was talking about when I brought up designing a system that works - sorry if I wasn't clear. I think anyone with such mental health issues and a violent conviction should have their medications monitored for life. I have nothing against them being treated and released otherwise.
    That said, Vince Li may never do anything wrong every again. Let's hope so.

    For so many reasons let's hope so.

    And lost in this discussion- again- is the fact that there was a victim brutally murdered and a family that has to live with this fact.

    I've come a long way with regards to how I view Li, but I am far from thinking he is the type of individual fit to live among everyone else unsupervised. Given what transpired that evening, it is not a stretch to suggest he should remain supervised in a hospital setting for a long time. We went 'all in' on his rehabilitation very quickly. He didn't have to spend too long at all convincing the powers that be that he was a cured man. 
    I never feel like the victim is lost in the discussion ever. The importance of the victims are always implied IMO.
    I also feel genuine sorrow for Vince Li though. I can no better imagine what pain he has to live with, knowing what he did, than I can with the victim's family. And from everything I've read, he did not go about "convincing" people of anything - I have only read that he has always put himself at the mercy of those dealing with him, whatever may come. He has never acted like he "deserves" to be free from what I've seen. He simply has done the best he could and went along with his lawyers' advice. I just wish someone would make sure his illness doesn't lead to him going off his meds, as such illnesses so often do.
    He is not unsupervised. He is not under a RB order but he is not unsupervised. And you are correct; he was very engaged in his treatment  throughout the whole RB process and had a very good response, which markedly decreased his risk and allowed him to regain a measure of good health, though of course forever affected by the acts he has committed. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • fifefife Posts: 3,117

    If you use hard narcotics that are known to cause overdose...then that is on the user.  I blame politicians for a lot of things.  Other than the opiod crisis and marijuana being illegal, they are not responsible for these users...
    I find it interesting how you separate people who use hard narcotics and people who use opioids.  many of the people who I know who use both tend to use for pain relieve.   the major issue now is how even things like pot are being report to have been laced with Fentanyl.(to be fair, i have not seen this actually occurring"   life time users that I know who are know their limits are overdosing cause fentanyl is in their heroin. 

  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 41,849
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Yup, severe psychosis exists, it can be the cause of extreme violence, no fault can be laid on the mentally ill person whose actions were completely beyond his or her control, and there are drugs to control it. The main issue is ensuring that someone with such psychosis keeps taking the drugs.... This isn't that hard to do - the authorities just need to do their jobs properly and design the system to work.

    He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.
    Yeah, exactly. That's what I was talking about when I brought up designing a system that works - sorry if I wasn't clear. I think anyone with such mental health issues and a violent conviction should have their medications monitored for life. I have nothing against them being treated and released otherwise.
    That said, Vince Li may never do anything wrong every again. Let's hope so.

    For so many reasons let's hope so.

    And lost in this discussion- again- is the fact that there was a victim brutally murdered and a family that has to live with this fact.

    I've come a long way with regards to how I view Li, but I am far from thinking he is the type of individual fit to live among everyone else unsupervised. Given what transpired that evening, it is not a stretch to suggest he should remain supervised in a hospital setting for a long time. We went 'all in' on his rehabilitation very quickly. He didn't have to spend too long at all convincing the powers that be that he was a cured man. 
    I never feel like the victim is lost in the discussion ever. The importance of the victims are always implied IMO.
    I also feel genuine sorrow for Vince Li though. I can no better imagine what pain he has to live with, knowing what he did, than I can with the victim's family. And from everything I've read, he did not go about "convincing" people of anything - I have only read that he has always put himself at the mercy of those dealing with him, whatever may come. He has never acted like he "deserves" to be free from what I've seen. He simply has done the best he could and went along with his lawyers' advice. I just wish someone would make sure his illness doesn't lead to him going off his meds, as such illnesses so often do.
    He is not unsupervised. He is not under a RB order but he is not unsupervised. And you are correct; he was very engaged in his treatment  throughout the whole RB process and had a very good response, which markedly decreased his risk and allowed him to regain a measure of good health, though of course forever affected by the acts he has committed. 
    From what I've read there are no restrictions or legal obligations whatsoever when it comes to Li's independent living.... I did try to find something indicating that his medication is somehow supervised, and I've been unable to find that. If you have found something that suggests that's happening it would be great if you could post it.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Yup, severe psychosis exists, it can be the cause of extreme violence, no fault can be laid on the mentally ill person whose actions were completely beyond his or her control, and there are drugs to control it. The main issue is ensuring that someone with such psychosis keeps taking the drugs.... This isn't that hard to do - the authorities just need to do their jobs properly and design the system to work.

    He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.
    Yeah, exactly. That's what I was talking about when I brought up designing a system that works - sorry if I wasn't clear. I think anyone with such mental health issues and a violent conviction should have their medications monitored for life. I have nothing against them being treated and released otherwise.
    That said, Vince Li may never do anything wrong every again. Let's hope so.

    For so many reasons let's hope so.

    And lost in this discussion- again- is the fact that there was a victim brutally murdered and a family that has to live with this fact.

    I've come a long way with regards to how I view Li, but I am far from thinking he is the type of individual fit to live among everyone else unsupervised. Given what transpired that evening, it is not a stretch to suggest he should remain supervised in a hospital setting for a long time. We went 'all in' on his rehabilitation very quickly. He didn't have to spend too long at all convincing the powers that be that he was a cured man. 
    I never feel like the victim is lost in the discussion ever. The importance of the victims are always implied IMO.
    I also feel genuine sorrow for Vince Li though. I can no better imagine what pain he has to live with, knowing what he did, than I can with the victim's family. And from everything I've read, he did not go about "convincing" people of anything - I have only read that he has always put himself at the mercy of those dealing with him, whatever may come. He has never acted like he "deserves" to be free from what I've seen. He simply has done the best he could and went along with his lawyers' advice. I just wish someone would make sure his illness doesn't lead to him going off his meds, as such illnesses so often do.
    He is not unsupervised. He is not under a RB order but he is not unsupervised. And you are correct; he was very engaged in his treatment  throughout the whole RB process and had a very good response, which markedly decreased his risk and allowed him to regain a measure of good health, though of course forever affected by the acts he has committed. 
    From what I've read there are no restrictions or legal obligations whatsoever when it comes to Li's independent living.... I did try to find something indicating that his medication is somehow supervised, and I've been unable to find that. If you have found something that suggests that's happening it would be great if you could post it.

    I'd like to see that as well.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Yup, severe psychosis exists, it can be the cause of extreme violence, no fault can be laid on the mentally ill person whose actions were completely beyond his or her control, and there are drugs to control it. The main issue is ensuring that someone with such psychosis keeps taking the drugs.... This isn't that hard to do - the authorities just need to do their jobs properly and design the system to work.

    He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.
    Yeah, exactly. That's what I was talking about when I brought up designing a system that works - sorry if I wasn't clear. I think anyone with such mental health issues and a violent conviction should have their medications monitored for life. I have nothing against them being treated and released otherwise.
    That said, Vince Li may never do anything wrong every again. Let's hope so.

    For so many reasons let's hope so.

    And lost in this discussion- again- is the fact that there was a victim brutally murdered and a family that has to live with this fact.

    I've come a long way with regards to how I view Li, but I am far from thinking he is the type of individual fit to live among everyone else unsupervised. Given what transpired that evening, it is not a stretch to suggest he should remain supervised in a hospital setting for a long time. We went 'all in' on his rehabilitation very quickly. He didn't have to spend too long at all convincing the powers that be that he was a cured man. 
    I never feel like the victim is lost in the discussion ever. The importance of the victims are always implied IMO.
    I also feel genuine sorrow for Vince Li though. I can no better imagine what pain he has to live with, knowing what he did, than I can with the victim's family. I just wish someone would make sure his illness doesn't lead to him going off his meds, as such illnesses so often do.

    I'd be with you on feeling something towards Li if he wasn't so savage and brutal in his attack. It's one thing to hear some voices telling you to kill some random guy sitting beside you on a bus... it's another to mutilate and eat the random guy after you do it. What was telling him to do that?

    To my way of thinking... this was an unparalleled gore frenzy. People with schizophrenia can do some brutal things, but this was beyond explainable. Decapitation. Eyeballs in the pockets. Waving a severed head at people. Eating parts.

    The horrific capacity of this man in the throes of an episode is simply too extreme.   
    The same voice that told him to kill him at all told him to do that of course. I frankly have no idea how or why you think that brutality diminishes the mental illness argument. To me, it seems to support it further. Sorry, I just don't understand your logic here at all. The brutality of it is "too extreme" for what? I would think it was too extreme for it to not have absolutely everything to do with his terrible illness/psychosis.

    My logic is that it's one thing to kill a man because you hear voices telling you to do so... it's quite another to do that and savagely mutilate the corpse in as grotesque a fashion as possible.

    We hear of mentally ill people committing acts of violence from time to time. This event was completely off the charts. You might not like what I'm about to say, but the nature of the crime and the sheer depravity on the part of Li after he had already murdered McLean belies the excuse of a psychotic break to explain everything in a tidy way.

    If you remember, people were tripping over themselves to have Li released less than two years following the event.  
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 41,849
    edited July 30
    fife said:

    If you use hard narcotics that are known to cause overdose...then that is on the user.  I blame politicians for a lot of things.  Other than the opiod crisis and marijuana being illegal, they are not responsible for these users...
    I find it interesting how you separate people who use hard narcotics and people who use opioids.  many of the people who I know who use both tend to use for pain relieve.   the major issue now is how even things like pot are being report to have been laced with Fentanyl.(to be fair, i have not seen this actually occurring"   life time users that I know who are know their limits are overdosing cause fentanyl is in their heroin. 

    And let's not forget about all the teens and college aged kids who are just recreational users at parties. Some straight A student decides to take some E one night and ODs.... then they should be shit out of luck, no help for them! Says Meltdown, anyway. Same with ALL the people who just recreationally use and die. Only about 10% - 20% of hard drug users are addicts FYI.
    FYI, I recently lost an old friend to fentanyl. I hadn't seen him in some years since he moved from metro Vancouver, but was friends with him for many years (we met at university around 1997 or so), and he was an extremely upstanding citizen. He was, in fact, a Vice-President at Thompson Rivers University. I'm sure some in Canada saw the news, just last fall - it hit the national news a bit because of his professional position and because of his unbelievable record of community service. He was no addict. He went to Victoria on a business trip and decided to party a bit after the work was done. He had some drinks and did a bit of coke, as many upstanding citizens will do from time to time. He was found in his hotel room unresponsive, and died while in a coma some days later - confirmed accidental fentanyl OD. He had 2 very young children and a wife. It's absolutely tragic, and I was so shocked and saddened when I saw that this is how it ended for my hilarious friend.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • fifefife Posts: 3,117
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Yup, severe psychosis exists, it can be the cause of extreme violence, no fault can be laid on the mentally ill person whose actions were completely beyond his or her control, and there are drugs to control it. The main issue is ensuring that someone with such psychosis keeps taking the drugs.... This isn't that hard to do - the authorities just need to do their jobs properly and design the system to work.

    He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.
    Yeah, exactly. That's what I was talking about when I brought up designing a system that works - sorry if I wasn't clear. I think anyone with such mental health issues and a violent conviction should have their medications monitored for life. I have nothing against them being treated and released otherwise.
    That said, Vince Li may never do anything wrong every again. Let's hope so.

    For so many reasons let's hope so.

    And lost in this discussion- again- is the fact that there was a victim brutally murdered and a family that has to live with this fact.

    I've come a long way with regards to how I view Li, but I am far from thinking he is the type of individual fit to live among everyone else unsupervised. Given what transpired that evening, it is not a stretch to suggest he should remain supervised in a hospital setting for a long time. We went 'all in' on his rehabilitation very quickly. He didn't have to spend too long at all convincing the powers that be that he was a cured man. 
    I never feel like the victim is lost in the discussion ever. The importance of the victims are always implied IMO.
    I also feel genuine sorrow for Vince Li though. I can no better imagine what pain he has to live with, knowing what he did, than I can with the victim's family. I just wish someone would make sure his illness doesn't lead to him going off his meds, as such illnesses so often do.

    I'd be with you on feeling something towards Li if he wasn't so savage and brutal in his attack. It's one thing to hear some voices telling you to kill some random guy sitting beside you on a bus... it's another to mutilate and eat the random guy after you do it. What was telling him to do that?

    To my way of thinking... this was an unparalleled gore frenzy. People with schizophrenia can do some brutal things, but this was beyond explainable. Decapitation. Eyeballs in the pockets. Waving a severed head at people. Eating parts.

    The horrific capacity of this man in the throes of an episode is simply too extreme.   
    The same voice that told him to kill him at all told him to do that of course. I frankly have no idea how or why you think that brutality diminishes the mental illness argument. To me, it seems to support it further. Sorry, I just don't understand your logic here at all. The brutality of it is "too extreme" for what? I would think it was too extreme for it to not have absolutely everything to do with his terrible illness/psychosis.

    My logic is that it's one thing to kill a man because you hear voices telling you to do so... it's quite another to do that and savagely mutilate the corpse in as grotesque a fashion as possible.

    We hear of mentally ill people committing acts of violence from time to time. This event was completely off the charts. You might not like what I'm about to say, but the nature of the crime and the sheer depravity on the part of Li after he had already murdered McLean belies the excuse of a psychotic break to explain everything in a tidy way.

    If you remember, people were tripping over themselves to have Li released less than two years following the event.  
    mental health doesn't always make sense.  I have known clients of mine who have cuts themselves badly, i actually had a client of mine cut off his own penis.  depending on the type of mental health many people who walk around might seem completely "normal" can do very bad things not knowing that they did it.  that same client who cut off his penis, went to the hospital and began getting medicated and now has a full time job and is doing very well.
     
  • fife said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Yup, severe psychosis exists, it can be the cause of extreme violence, no fault can be laid on the mentally ill person whose actions were completely beyond his or her control, and there are drugs to control it. The main issue is ensuring that someone with such psychosis keeps taking the drugs.... This isn't that hard to do - the authorities just need to do their jobs properly and design the system to work.

    He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.
    Yeah, exactly. That's what I was talking about when I brought up designing a system that works - sorry if I wasn't clear. I think anyone with such mental health issues and a violent conviction should have their medications monitored for life. I have nothing against them being treated and released otherwise.
    That said, Vince Li may never do anything wrong every again. Let's hope so.

    For so many reasons let's hope so.

    And lost in this discussion- again- is the fact that there was a victim brutally murdered and a family that has to live with this fact.

    I've come a long way with regards to how I view Li, but I am far from thinking he is the type of individual fit to live among everyone else unsupervised. Given what transpired that evening, it is not a stretch to suggest he should remain supervised in a hospital setting for a long time. We went 'all in' on his rehabilitation very quickly. He didn't have to spend too long at all convincing the powers that be that he was a cured man. 
    I never feel like the victim is lost in the discussion ever. The importance of the victims are always implied IMO.
    I also feel genuine sorrow for Vince Li though. I can no better imagine what pain he has to live with, knowing what he did, than I can with the victim's family. I just wish someone would make sure his illness doesn't lead to him going off his meds, as such illnesses so often do.

    I'd be with you on feeling something towards Li if he wasn't so savage and brutal in his attack. It's one thing to hear some voices telling you to kill some random guy sitting beside you on a bus... it's another to mutilate and eat the random guy after you do it. What was telling him to do that?

    To my way of thinking... this was an unparalleled gore frenzy. People with schizophrenia can do some brutal things, but this was beyond explainable. Decapitation. Eyeballs in the pockets. Waving a severed head at people. Eating parts.

    The horrific capacity of this man in the throes of an episode is simply too extreme.   
    The same voice that told him to kill him at all told him to do that of course. I frankly have no idea how or why you think that brutality diminishes the mental illness argument. To me, it seems to support it further. Sorry, I just don't understand your logic here at all. The brutality of it is "too extreme" for what? I would think it was too extreme for it to not have absolutely everything to do with his terrible illness/psychosis.

    My logic is that it's one thing to kill a man because you hear voices telling you to do so... it's quite another to do that and savagely mutilate the corpse in as grotesque a fashion as possible.

    We hear of mentally ill people committing acts of violence from time to time. This event was completely off the charts. You might not like what I'm about to say, but the nature of the crime and the sheer depravity on the part of Li after he had already murdered McLean belies the excuse of a psychotic break to explain everything in a tidy way.

    If you remember, people were tripping over themselves to have Li released less than two years following the event.  
    mental health doesn't always make sense.  I have known clients of mine who have cuts themselves badly, i actually had a client of mine cut off his own penis.  depending on the type of mental health many people who walk around might seem completely "normal" can do very bad things not knowing that they did it.  that same client who cut off his penis, went to the hospital and began getting medicated and now has a full time job and is doing very well.
     
    I understand this.

    My whole point is that we must balance public safety with our concern for the individual. People who self harm pose no risk to anyone other than themselves. If someone is capable of tearing apart a human being when suffering from a break... then we should proceed very carefully to say the least.

    I don't believe we have proceeded with caution in this case. 
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 41,849
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Yup, severe psychosis exists, it can be the cause of extreme violence, no fault can be laid on the mentally ill person whose actions were completely beyond his or her control, and there are drugs to control it. The main issue is ensuring that someone with such psychosis keeps taking the drugs.... This isn't that hard to do - the authorities just need to do their jobs properly and design the system to work.

    He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.
    Yeah, exactly. That's what I was talking about when I brought up designing a system that works - sorry if I wasn't clear. I think anyone with such mental health issues and a violent conviction should have their medications monitored for life. I have nothing against them being treated and released otherwise.
    That said, Vince Li may never do anything wrong every again. Let's hope so.

    For so many reasons let's hope so.

    And lost in this discussion- again- is the fact that there was a victim brutally murdered and a family that has to live with this fact.

    I've come a long way with regards to how I view Li, but I am far from thinking he is the type of individual fit to live among everyone else unsupervised. Given what transpired that evening, it is not a stretch to suggest he should remain supervised in a hospital setting for a long time. We went 'all in' on his rehabilitation very quickly. He didn't have to spend too long at all convincing the powers that be that he was a cured man. 
    I never feel like the victim is lost in the discussion ever. The importance of the victims are always implied IMO.
    I also feel genuine sorrow for Vince Li though. I can no better imagine what pain he has to live with, knowing what he did, than I can with the victim's family. I just wish someone would make sure his illness doesn't lead to him going off his meds, as such illnesses so often do.

    I'd be with you on feeling something towards Li if he wasn't so savage and brutal in his attack. It's one thing to hear some voices telling you to kill some random guy sitting beside you on a bus... it's another to mutilate and eat the random guy after you do it. What was telling him to do that?

    To my way of thinking... this was an unparalleled gore frenzy. People with schizophrenia can do some brutal things, but this was beyond explainable. Decapitation. Eyeballs in the pockets. Waving a severed head at people. Eating parts.

    The horrific capacity of this man in the throes of an episode is simply too extreme.   
    The same voice that told him to kill him at all told him to do that of course. I frankly have no idea how or why you think that brutality diminishes the mental illness argument. To me, it seems to support it further. Sorry, I just don't understand your logic here at all. The brutality of it is "too extreme" for what? I would think it was too extreme for it to not have absolutely everything to do with his terrible illness/psychosis.

    My logic is that it's one thing to kill a man because you hear voices telling you to do so... it's quite another to do that and savagely mutilate the corpse in as grotesque a fashion as possible.

    We hear of mentally ill people committing acts of violence from time to time. This event was completely off the charts. You might not like what I'm about to say, but the nature of the crime and the sheer depravity on the part of Li after he had already murdered McLean belies the excuse of a psychotic break to explain everything in a tidy way.

    If you remember, people were tripping over themselves to have Li released less than two years following the event.  
    Yeah, this still makes zero sense to me. The nature of the crime and the sheer depravity on the part of Li after he had already murdered McLean is further proof of his psychosis. I neither like nor dislike you saying that... It just doesn't seem logical to me at all.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 7,965
    fife said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Yup, severe psychosis exists, it can be the cause of extreme violence, no fault can be laid on the mentally ill person whose actions were completely beyond his or her control, and there are drugs to control it. The main issue is ensuring that someone with such psychosis keeps taking the drugs.... This isn't that hard to do - the authorities just need to do their jobs properly and design the system to work.

    He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.
    Yeah, exactly. That's what I was talking about when I brought up designing a system that works - sorry if I wasn't clear. I think anyone with such mental health issues and a violent conviction should have their medications monitored for life. I have nothing against them being treated and released otherwise.
    That said, Vince Li may never do anything wrong every again. Let's hope so.

    For so many reasons let's hope so.

    And lost in this discussion- again- is the fact that there was a victim brutally murdered and a family that has to live with this fact.

    I've come a long way with regards to how I view Li, but I am far from thinking he is the type of individual fit to live among everyone else unsupervised. Given what transpired that evening, it is not a stretch to suggest he should remain supervised in a hospital setting for a long time. We went 'all in' on his rehabilitation very quickly. He didn't have to spend too long at all convincing the powers that be that he was a cured man. 
    I never feel like the victim is lost in the discussion ever. The importance of the victims are always implied IMO.
    I also feel genuine sorrow for Vince Li though. I can no better imagine what pain he has to live with, knowing what he did, than I can with the victim's family. I just wish someone would make sure his illness doesn't lead to him going off his meds, as such illnesses so often do.

    I'd be with you on feeling something towards Li if he wasn't so savage and brutal in his attack. It's one thing to hear some voices telling you to kill some random guy sitting beside you on a bus... it's another to mutilate and eat the random guy after you do it. What was telling him to do that?

    To my way of thinking... this was an unparalleled gore frenzy. People with schizophrenia can do some brutal things, but this was beyond explainable. Decapitation. Eyeballs in the pockets. Waving a severed head at people. Eating parts.

    The horrific capacity of this man in the throes of an episode is simply too extreme.   
    The same voice that told him to kill him at all told him to do that of course. I frankly have no idea how or why you think that brutality diminishes the mental illness argument. To me, it seems to support it further. Sorry, I just don't understand your logic here at all. The brutality of it is "too extreme" for what? I would think it was too extreme for it to not have absolutely everything to do with his terrible illness/psychosis.

    My logic is that it's one thing to kill a man because you hear voices telling you to do so... it's quite another to do that and savagely mutilate the corpse in as grotesque a fashion as possible.

    We hear of mentally ill people committing acts of violence from time to time. This event was completely off the charts. You might not like what I'm about to say, but the nature of the crime and the sheer depravity on the part of Li after he had already murdered McLean belies the excuse of a psychotic break to explain everything in a tidy way.

    If you remember, people were tripping over themselves to have Li released less than two years following the event.  
    mental health doesn't always make sense.  I have known clients of mine who have cuts themselves badly, i actually had a client of mine cut off his own penis.  depending on the type of mental health many people who walk around might seem completely "normal" can do very bad things not knowing that they did it.  that same client who cut off his penis, went to the hospital and began getting medicated and now has a full time job and is doing very well.
     
    Yes to your reply. There is more than ample evidence that Li was floridly psychotic and profoundly affected by delusions and hallucinations at the time of his actions, and anyone who argues that his behaviour itself suggests he was driven by something other than psychosis has no understanding of what psychosis is like. 

    Additionally, contrary to the Conservative government’s position, when someone has been found NCRMD, the “brutality” of the act bears no relation to the risk of relapse or re-offense, and this shouldn’t be taken into account when looking at whether someone fits the “high risk” designation. 
     
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • fifefife Posts: 3,117
    fife said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Yup, severe psychosis exists, it can be the cause of extreme violence, no fault can be laid on the mentally ill person whose actions were completely beyond his or her control, and there are drugs to control it. The main issue is ensuring that someone with such psychosis keeps taking the drugs.... This isn't that hard to do - the authorities just need to do their jobs properly and design the system to work.

    He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.
    Yeah, exactly. That's what I was talking about when I brought up designing a system that works - sorry if I wasn't clear. I think anyone with such mental health issues and a violent conviction should have their medications monitored for life. I have nothing against them being treated and released otherwise.
    That said, Vince Li may never do anything wrong every again. Let's hope so.

    For so many reasons let's hope so.

    And lost in this discussion- again- is the fact that there was a victim brutally murdered and a family that has to live with this fact.

    I've come a long way with regards to how I view Li, but I am far from thinking he is the type of individual fit to live among everyone else unsupervised. Given what transpired that evening, it is not a stretch to suggest he should remain supervised in a hospital setting for a long time. We went 'all in' on his rehabilitation very quickly. He didn't have to spend too long at all convincing the powers that be that he was a cured man. 
    I never feel like the victim is lost in the discussion ever. The importance of the victims are always implied IMO.
    I also feel genuine sorrow for Vince Li though. I can no better imagine what pain he has to live with, knowing what he did, than I can with the victim's family. I just wish someone would make sure his illness doesn't lead to him going off his meds, as such illnesses so often do.

    I'd be with you on feeling something towards Li if he wasn't so savage and brutal in his attack. It's one thing to hear some voices telling you to kill some random guy sitting beside you on a bus... it's another to mutilate and eat the random guy after you do it. What was telling him to do that?

    To my way of thinking... this was an unparalleled gore frenzy. People with schizophrenia can do some brutal things, but this was beyond explainable. Decapitation. Eyeballs in the pockets. Waving a severed head at people. Eating parts.

    The horrific capacity of this man in the throes of an episode is simply too extreme.   
    The same voice that told him to kill him at all told him to do that of course. I frankly have no idea how or why you think that brutality diminishes the mental illness argument. To me, it seems to support it further. Sorry, I just don't understand your logic here at all. The brutality of it is "too extreme" for what? I would think it was too extreme for it to not have absolutely everything to do with his terrible illness/psychosis.

    My logic is that it's one thing to kill a man because you hear voices telling you to do so... it's quite another to do that and savagely mutilate the corpse in as grotesque a fashion as possible.

    We hear of mentally ill people committing acts of violence from time to time. This event was completely off the charts. You might not like what I'm about to say, but the nature of the crime and the sheer depravity on the part of Li after he had already murdered McLean belies the excuse of a psychotic break to explain everything in a tidy way.

    If you remember, people were tripping over themselves to have Li released less than two years following the event.  
    mental health doesn't always make sense.  I have known clients of mine who have cuts themselves badly, i actually had a client of mine cut off his own penis.  depending on the type of mental health many people who walk around might seem completely "normal" can do very bad things not knowing that they did it.  that same client who cut off his penis, went to the hospital and began getting medicated and now has a full time job and is doing very well.
     
    I understand this.

    My whole point is that we must balance public safety with our concern for the individual. People who self harm pose no risk to anyone other than themselves. If someone is capable of tearing apart a human being when suffering from a break... then we should proceed very carefully to say the least.

    I don't believe we have proceeded with caution in this case. 
    Maybe but the question is , for how long of a period?  considering this case and the emotion around it, i really don't believe that all the doctors were going to take a risk and let him go if they thought that he would re-offend. 
  • fife said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Yup, severe psychosis exists, it can be the cause of extreme violence, no fault can be laid on the mentally ill person whose actions were completely beyond his or her control, and there are drugs to control it. The main issue is ensuring that someone with such psychosis keeps taking the drugs.... This isn't that hard to do - the authorities just need to do their jobs properly and design the system to work.

    He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.
    Yeah, exactly. That's what I was talking about when I brought up designing a system that works - sorry if I wasn't clear. I think anyone with such mental health issues and a violent conviction should have their medications monitored for life. I have nothing against them being treated and released otherwise.
    That said, Vince Li may never do anything wrong every again. Let's hope so.

    For so many reasons let's hope so.

    And lost in this discussion- again- is the fact that there was a victim brutally murdered and a family that has to live with this fact.

    I've come a long way with regards to how I view Li, but I am far from thinking he is the type of individual fit to live among everyone else unsupervised. Given what transpired that evening, it is not a stretch to suggest he should remain supervised in a hospital setting for a long time. We went 'all in' on his rehabilitation very quickly. He didn't have to spend too long at all convincing the powers that be that he was a cured man. 
    I never feel like the victim is lost in the discussion ever. The importance of the victims are always implied IMO.
    I also feel genuine sorrow for Vince Li though. I can no better imagine what pain he has to live with, knowing what he did, than I can with the victim's family. I just wish someone would make sure his illness doesn't lead to him going off his meds, as such illnesses so often do.

    I'd be with you on feeling something towards Li if he wasn't so savage and brutal in his attack. It's one thing to hear some voices telling you to kill some random guy sitting beside you on a bus... it's another to mutilate and eat the random guy after you do it. What was telling him to do that?

    To my way of thinking... this was an unparalleled gore frenzy. People with schizophrenia can do some brutal things, but this was beyond explainable. Decapitation. Eyeballs in the pockets. Waving a severed head at people. Eating parts.

    The horrific capacity of this man in the throes of an episode is simply too extreme.   
    The same voice that told him to kill him at all told him to do that of course. I frankly have no idea how or why you think that brutality diminishes the mental illness argument. To me, it seems to support it further. Sorry, I just don't understand your logic here at all. The brutality of it is "too extreme" for what? I would think it was too extreme for it to not have absolutely everything to do with his terrible illness/psychosis.

    My logic is that it's one thing to kill a man because you hear voices telling you to do so... it's quite another to do that and savagely mutilate the corpse in as grotesque a fashion as possible.

    We hear of mentally ill people committing acts of violence from time to time. This event was completely off the charts. You might not like what I'm about to say, but the nature of the crime and the sheer depravity on the part of Li after he had already murdered McLean belies the excuse of a psychotic break to explain everything in a tidy way.

    If you remember, people were tripping over themselves to have Li released less than two years following the event.  
    mental health doesn't always make sense.  I have known clients of mine who have cuts themselves badly, i actually had a client of mine cut off his own penis.  depending on the type of mental health many people who walk around might seem completely "normal" can do very bad things not knowing that they did it.  that same client who cut off his penis, went to the hospital and began getting medicated and now has a full time job and is doing very well.
     
    Yes to your reply. There is more than ample evidence that Li was floridly psychotic and profoundly affected by delusions and hallucinations at the time of his actions, and anyone who argues that his behaviour itself suggests he was driven by something other than psychosis has no understanding of what psychosis is like. 

    Additionally, contrary to the Conservative government’s position, when someone has been found NCRMD, the “brutality” of the act bears no relation to the risk of relapse or re-offense, and this shouldn’t be taken into account when looking at whether someone fits the “high risk” designation. 
     

    The brutality of the act bears no relation to the risk of relapse or re-offence and should not be taken into account when looking at whether someone fits the 'high risk' definition? I'd beg to differ. 

    I looked to see if I could find anything that definitively supports what you have stated here, but could not find anything. If you were speaking in a legal sense... then I'd still disagree (just as I would disagree with the legal concept where a rapist's prior rapes cannot be used against him when proving his guilt for his most recent rape- each crime is a unique and separate event).

    Multiple studies show recidivism rates for people with severe mental illness are very high. Similar studies show that recidivism rates are very high when substance abuse is coupled with severe mental illness. My point being: it's all fine and dandy Li was a model patient while under the watchful eye of clinicians; however, leaving him to his own devices without any monitoring is quite a leap of faith.   
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • fife said:
    fife said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Yup, severe psychosis exists, it can be the cause of extreme violence, no fault can be laid on the mentally ill person whose actions were completely beyond his or her control, and there are drugs to control it. The main issue is ensuring that someone with such psychosis keeps taking the drugs.... This isn't that hard to do - the authorities just need to do their jobs properly and design the system to work.

    He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.
    Yeah, exactly. That's what I was talking about when I brought up designing a system that works - sorry if I wasn't clear. I think anyone with such mental health issues and a violent conviction should have their medications monitored for life. I have nothing against them being treated and released otherwise.
    That said, Vince Li may never do anything wrong every again. Let's hope so.

    For so many reasons let's hope so.

    And lost in this discussion- again- is the fact that there was a victim brutally murdered and a family that has to live with this fact.

    I've come a long way with regards to how I view Li, but I am far from thinking he is the type of individual fit to live among everyone else unsupervised. Given what transpired that evening, it is not a stretch to suggest he should remain supervised in a hospital setting for a long time. We went 'all in' on his rehabilitation very quickly. He didn't have to spend too long at all convincing the powers that be that he was a cured man. 
    I never feel like the victim is lost in the discussion ever. The importance of the victims are always implied IMO.
    I also feel genuine sorrow for Vince Li though. I can no better imagine what pain he has to live with, knowing what he did, than I can with the victim's family. I just wish someone would make sure his illness doesn't lead to him going off his meds, as such illnesses so often do.

    I'd be with you on feeling something towards Li if he wasn't so savage and brutal in his attack. It's one thing to hear some voices telling you to kill some random guy sitting beside you on a bus... it's another to mutilate and eat the random guy after you do it. What was telling him to do that?

    To my way of thinking... this was an unparalleled gore frenzy. People with schizophrenia can do some brutal things, but this was beyond explainable. Decapitation. Eyeballs in the pockets. Waving a severed head at people. Eating parts.

    The horrific capacity of this man in the throes of an episode is simply too extreme.   
    The same voice that told him to kill him at all told him to do that of course. I frankly have no idea how or why you think that brutality diminishes the mental illness argument. To me, it seems to support it further. Sorry, I just don't understand your logic here at all. The brutality of it is "too extreme" for what? I would think it was too extreme for it to not have absolutely everything to do with his terrible illness/psychosis.

    My logic is that it's one thing to kill a man because you hear voices telling you to do so... it's quite another to do that and savagely mutilate the corpse in as grotesque a fashion as possible.

    We hear of mentally ill people committing acts of violence from time to time. This event was completely off the charts. You might not like what I'm about to say, but the nature of the crime and the sheer depravity on the part of Li after he had already murdered McLean belies the excuse of a psychotic break to explain everything in a tidy way.

    If you remember, people were tripping over themselves to have Li released less than two years following the event.  
    mental health doesn't always make sense.  I have known clients of mine who have cuts themselves badly, i actually had a client of mine cut off his own penis.  depending on the type of mental health many people who walk around might seem completely "normal" can do very bad things not knowing that they did it.  that same client who cut off his penis, went to the hospital and began getting medicated and now has a full time job and is doing very well.
     
    I understand this.

    My whole point is that we must balance public safety with our concern for the individual. People who self harm pose no risk to anyone other than themselves. If someone is capable of tearing apart a human being when suffering from a break... then we should proceed very carefully to say the least.

    I don't believe we have proceeded with caution in this case. 
    Maybe but the question is , for how long of a period?  considering this case and the emotion around it, i really don't believe that all the doctors were going to take a risk and let him go if they thought that he would re-offend. 

    Good question.

    You have a man that has demonstrated he is capable of killing and mutilating a random person when suffering from a psychotic episode. This is a risk in my mind. I wouldn't want such a person living in the house next to mine and my children.

    And doctors don't always nail it- especially with human behaviour which is far from an exact science.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 7,965
    fife said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Yup, severe psychosis exists, it can be the cause of extreme violence, no fault can be laid on the mentally ill person whose actions were completely beyond his or her control, and there are drugs to control it. The main issue is ensuring that someone with such psychosis keeps taking the drugs.... This isn't that hard to do - the authorities just need to do their jobs properly and design the system to work.

    He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.
    Yeah, exactly. That's what I was talking about when I brought up designing a system that works - sorry if I wasn't clear. I think anyone with such mental health issues and a violent conviction should have their medications monitored for life. I have nothing against them being treated and released otherwise.
    That said, Vince Li may never do anything wrong every again. Let's hope so.

    For so many reasons let's hope so.

    And lost in this discussion- again- is the fact that there was a victim brutally murdered and a family that has to live with this fact.

    I've come a long way with regards to how I view Li, but I am far from thinking he is the type of individual fit to live among everyone else unsupervised. Given what transpired that evening, it is not a stretch to suggest he should remain supervised in a hospital setting for a long time. We went 'all in' on his rehabilitation very quickly. He didn't have to spend too long at all convincing the powers that be that he was a cured man. 
    I never feel like the victim is lost in the discussion ever. The importance of the victims are always implied IMO.
    I also feel genuine sorrow for Vince Li though. I can no better imagine what pain he has to live with, knowing what he did, than I can with the victim's family. I just wish someone would make sure his illness doesn't lead to him going off his meds, as such illnesses so often do.

    I'd be with you on feeling something towards Li if he wasn't so savage and brutal in his attack. It's one thing to hear some voices telling you to kill some random guy sitting beside you on a bus... it's another to mutilate and eat the random guy after you do it. What was telling him to do that?

    To my way of thinking... this was an unparalleled gore frenzy. People with schizophrenia can do some brutal things, but this was beyond explainable. Decapitation. Eyeballs in the pockets. Waving a severed head at people. Eating parts.

    The horrific capacity of this man in the throes of an episode is simply too extreme.   
    The same voice that told him to kill him at all told him to do that of course. I frankly have no idea how or why you think that brutality diminishes the mental illness argument. To me, it seems to support it further. Sorry, I just don't understand your logic here at all. The brutality of it is "too extreme" for what? I would think it was too extreme for it to not have absolutely everything to do with his terrible illness/psychosis.

    My logic is that it's one thing to kill a man because you hear voices telling you to do so... it's quite another to do that and savagely mutilate the corpse in as grotesque a fashion as possible.

    We hear of mentally ill people committing acts of violence from time to time. This event was completely off the charts. You might not like what I'm about to say, but the nature of the crime and the sheer depravity on the part of Li after he had already murdered McLean belies the excuse of a psychotic break to explain everything in a tidy way.

    If you remember, people were tripping over themselves to have Li released less than two years following the event.  
    mental health doesn't always make sense.  I have known clients of mine who have cuts themselves badly, i actually had a client of mine cut off his own penis.  depending on the type of mental health many people who walk around might seem completely "normal" can do very bad things not knowing that they did it.  that same client who cut off his penis, went to the hospital and began getting medicated and now has a full time job and is doing very well.
     
    Yes to your reply. There is more than ample evidence that Li was floridly psychotic and profoundly affected by delusions and hallucinations at the time of his actions, and anyone who argues that his behaviour itself suggests he was driven by something other than psychosis has no understanding of what psychosis is like. 

    Additionally, contrary to the Conservative government’s position, when someone has been found NCRMD, the “brutality” of the act bears no relation to the risk of relapse or re-offense, and this shouldn’t be taken into account when looking at whether someone fits the “high risk” designation. 
     

    The brutality of the act bears no relation to the risk of relapse or re-offence and should not be taken into account when looking at whether someone fits the 'high risk' definition? I'd beg to differ. 

    I looked to see if I could find anything that definitively supports what you have stated here, but could not find anything. If you were speaking in a legal sense... then I'd still disagree (just as I would disagree with the legal concept where a rapist's prior rapes cannot be used against him when proving his guilt for his most recent rape- each crime is a unique and separate event).

    Multiple studies show recidivism rates for people with severe mental illness are very high. Similar studies show that recidivism rates are very high when substance abuse is coupled with severe mental illness. My point being: it's all fine and dandy Li was a model patient while under the watchful eye of clinicians; however, leaving him to his own devices without any monitoring is quite a leap of faith.   
    We do have data that shows that the severity of the index offence bears no relation to the risk of future offending in the Canadian NCRMD population. The National Trajectory Project has looked at this very question. I didn't just make it up.

    I'm including a link here to a paper written addressing this and other aspects of Bill C-14

    http://jaapl.org/content/45/1/44

    The fact that you somehow bring legal aspects related to sexual assault trials into this shows that you have very little understanding of what the NCRMD designation means and how the finding is made.

    There is plenty of other evidence around that touches on aspects of what you've brought up. In the past I have spent time posting about this, as have some other posters. What we got back was "buy him a latte" and "give him a hug" and "he should rot in prison" and "this is why we need the death penalty". I'm not going to waste my time any further.
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 1,843
    Average Canadian family paying more than $12K to fund public health care: study

    https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/average-canadian-family-paying-more-than-12k-to-fund-public-health-care-study-1.4034416

    12000 grand for what?  Long wait times for just about everything.
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 1,843
    Lack of inheritance tax is making inequality worse, CCPA says

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/inheritance-tax-ccpa-1.4767137?cmp=FB_Post_News

    Now people on the left want to steal inheritance ... lmfao.
  • fife said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:


    He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.
    Yeah, exactly. That's what I was talking about when I brought up designing a system that works - sorry if I wasn't clear. I think anyone with such mental health issues and a violent conviction should have their medications monitored for life. I have nothing against them being treated and released otherwise.
    That said, Vince Li may never do anything wrong every again. Let's hope so.

    For so many reasons let's hope so.

    And lost in this discussion- again- is the fact that there was a victim brutally murdered and a family that has to live with this fact.

    I've come a long way with regards to how I view Li, but I am far from thinking he is the type of individual fit to live among everyone else unsupervised. Given what transpired that evening, it is not a stretch to suggest he should remain supervised in a hospital setting for a long time. We went 'all in' on his rehabilitation very quickly. He didn't have to spend too long at all convincing the powers that be that he was a cured man. 


       


    My logic is that it's one thing to kill a man because you hear voices telling you to do so... it's quite another to do that and savagely mutilate the corpse in as grotesque a fashion as possible.

    We hear of mentally ill people committing acts of violence from time to time. This event was completely off the charts. You might not like what I'm about to say, but the nature of the crime and the sheer depravity on the part of Li after he had already murdered McLean belies the excuse of a psychotic break to explain everything in a tidy way.

    If you remember, people were tripping over themselves to have Li released less than two years following the event.  
    Yes to your reply. There is more than ample evidence that Li was floridly psychotic and profoundly affected by delusions and hallucinations at the time of his actions, and anyone who argues that his behaviour itself suggests he was driven by something other than psychosis has no understanding of what psychosis is like. 

    Additionally, contrary to the Conservative government’s position, when someone has been found NCRMD, the “brutality” of the act bears no relation to the risk of relapse or re-offense, and this shouldn’t be taken into account when looking at whether someone fits the “high risk” designation. 
     

    The brutality of the act bears no relation to the risk of relapse or re-offence and should not be taken into account when looking at whether someone fits the 'high risk' definition? I'd beg to differ. 

    I looked to see if I could find anything that definitively supports what you have stated here, but could not find anything. If you were speaking in a legal sense... then I'd still disagree (just as I would disagree with the legal concept where a rapist's prior rapes cannot be used against him when proving his guilt for his most recent rape- each crime is a unique and separate event).

    Multiple studies show recidivism rates for people with severe mental illness are very high. Similar studies show that recidivism rates are very high when substance abuse is coupled with severe mental illness. My point being: it's all fine and dandy Li was a model patient while under the watchful eye of clinicians; however, leaving him to his own devices without any monitoring is quite a leap of faith.   
    We do have data that shows that the severity of the index offence bears no relation to the risk of future offending in the Canadian NCRMD population. The National Trajectory Project has looked at this very question. I didn't just make it up.

    I'm including a link here to a paper written addressing this and other aspects of Bill C-14

    http://jaapl.org/content/45/1/44

    The fact that you somehow bring legal aspects related to sexual assault trials into this shows that you have very little understanding of what the NCRMD designation means and how the finding is made.

    There is plenty of other evidence around that touches on aspects of what you've brought up. In the past I have spent time posting about this, as have some other posters. What we got back was "buy him a latte" and "give him a hug" and "he should rot in prison" and "this is why we need the death penalty". I'm not going to waste my time any further.

    I brought up the 'legal aspects' because- as I said- I couldn't find anything to support what you were saying (and expressed this). I offered it in the event you were speaking from a legal perspective that did not concern itself with the characteristics of the murder (ignore the abhorrent qualities of the murder and focus on the murder... just like a court might ignore the past of a serial rapist). 

    The link you offered doesn't answer the concern.

    It talks of recidivism rates and seems to support the notion that (from the link) 'the severity of the index offence did not affect the likelihood of recidivism against persons'. In a response to Fife you said, "the “brutality” of the act bears no relation to the risk of relapse or re-offense, and this shouldn’t be taken into account when looking at whether someone fits the “high risk” designation." 

    The link and you are statistically categorizing Li's murder with other violent acts of the more common variety- ignoring the characteristics or nature of the crime which, in my mind, have made it very unique. I don't feel using data comprised by studying other violent offenders who have committed 'typical' violent acts serves as an accurate or meaningful predictor for the future behaviour for Li.

    Interestingly, the link speaks of Li and Schoenborn- both who have been the subject of this discussion several times.

    And come on, man. You are throughout these pages taking shots at various people so don't speak as if you are above saying something goofy to someone you disagree with (see recent Trump thread for evidence of this). You took a snide little shot at me here in this post when you misunderstood what I was saying in response to your original assertion (that was unsupported and left to my interpretation).

    So chill out. I've never held a grudge against you even though I disagree with some things you have said and in some cases the way you have said them as well.  

    * And PJSoul and I both asked for clarification regarding Li's unconditional release. We are of the understanding he has no support or monitoring at this time... is this correct? You seemed to suggest otherwise in a post to someone else.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 1,843
    'He wasn't ready to go': Callous medical care of man crying in pain haunts family
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/greg-garnett-aortic-dissection-delayed-diagnosis-1.4762647
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 1,843
    Veterans threaten to give back special licence plates if RCMP are eligible for same plates

    https://globalnews.ca/news/4361946/veterans-threaten-to-give-back-special-licence-plates-if-rcmp-are-eligible-for-same-plates/?utm_medium=Facebook&utm_source=GlobalBC

    LMFAO ... the only people that needed to be consulted were veterans.  It appears they are no.  What a waste of time...
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