Knowing what you know now would you still support the withdrawal of troops from Iraq

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  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
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  • JimmyVJimmyV Boston's MetroWestPosts: 10,534

    now that i re-read this, the entire premise is stupid.

    "knowing what we know now."

    we know now what we knew then. that iraq did not have wmds. that iraq posed no immediate threat to the united states or the middle east. hans blix was right. plame's husband was right. the administration knew it, and we went in anyway.

    the world is never going to forgive us for that one.

    Nor should it.

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  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255

    now that i re-read this, the entire premise is stupid.

    "knowing what we know now."

    we know now what we knew then. that iraq did not have wmds. that iraq posed no immediate threat to the united states or the middle east. hans blix was right. plame's husband was right. the administration knew it, and we went in anyway.

    the world is never going to forgive us for that one.

    Facts, and yes ginmie was on here in 03 arguing AGAINST the war and people were telling him to get the fuck out of America. I remember.
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 16,122
    You should never make a decision just so you can claim you followed up on a campaign promise.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 34,813
    Never should have been there in the first place, and they needed to leave if the Iraqis wanted them to. Americans should now be down on their knees begging forgiveness rather than wondering if they should still have troops there.
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  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 6,470
    Jason P said:

    You should never make a decision just so you can claim you followed up on a campaign promise.

    Except it was GWB's decision and signature on the SOFA. See Article 25 in the link below:

    http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/122074.pdf

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  • Jason PJason P Posts: 16,122

    Jason P said:

    You should never make a decision just so you can claim you followed up on a campaign promise.

    Except it was GWB's decision and signature on the SOFA. See Article 25 in the link below:

    http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/122074.pdf

    That doesn't look like GWB's signature. And it is a moot point because a leader needs to be pragmatic and address and judge current issues accordingly.

    And I will even give the benefit of the doubt when we did pull out, we should have acted accordingly when the jihad movement slowly built up steam to what it is today.
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    Common theme, we fucked shit up, everywhere. Makes you wonder if it's done purposely. How can a country with all these "think tanks" be so wrong over and over again??
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 6,470
    Its not a moot point as Prime Minister Maliki didn't want the US in Iraq and the US didn't want to stay due to the unreasonable terms insisted upon by the Iraqi government. What you're advocating for then is/was a re-invasion of Iraq, trampling all over their sovereignty and their democratic process, which was the justification given for the invasion after there were no WMDs found, no ties to Al Qaeda and Saddam was executed. Revisionist history won't eliminate the facts.

    The U.S.–Iraq Status of Forces Agreement (official name: Agreement Between the United States of America and the Republic of Iraq On the Withdrawal of United States Forces from Iraq and the Organization of Their Activities during Their Temporary Presence in Iraq) was a status of forces agreement (SOFA) between Iraq and the United States, signed by President George W. Bush in 2008. It established that U.S. combat forces would withdraw from Iraqi cities by June 30, 2009, and all U.S. combat forces will be completely out of Iraq by December 31, 2011.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.–Iraq_Status_of_Forces_Agreement
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  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 19,008
    Maybe ask all the mothers and fathers and husbands and wives and siblings and friends on all sides who had sons and daughters who died for nothing (again) what they think or those who are mentally and physically scarred for life for no good reason...again. Terrible. Absolutely terrible and shameful.
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  • AafkeAafke Posts: 1,176
    Knowing what i know now... Invading an other country because You don't like how they run their government has always been and shall always be a very stupid idea! In this world there are a lot of different ideas and a lot of different opinions, some you share and some you disagree with, but invading out of fear and disagreement is an awful idea which hurts enormous amounts of innocent people, and in the long run only hurts your cause.

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  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ONPosts: 6,665
    Aafke said:

    Knowing what i know now... Invading an other country because You don't like how they run their government has always been and shall always be a very stupid idea! In this world there are a lot of different ideas and a lot of different opinions, some you share and some you disagree with, but invading out of fear and disagreement is an awful idea which hurts enormous amounts of innocent people, and in the long run only hurts your cause.

    I agree that it's nonsense to invade because a foreign country doesn't govern the way you do. I also find it abhorrent and morally reprehensible to invade with no concern about human ramifications, because it serves to benefit your agenda. Vietnam may have been the former (and I could be misinformed about that), but Iraq is quite clearly the latter. Not only was the invasion of Iraq stupid (as it didn't lead to a 'victory' based on its proposed 'objective'), but it was a betrayal of the ideals about certain human conditions that the USA claims to stand for.
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  • InHiding80InHiding80 Upland,CAPosts: 7,499

    BS44325 said:

    Uh yeah.

    Status of forces agreement, signed by GWB, guaranteed we would be out by the agreed upon date. Obama tried to keep us there. But they kicked us out.

    Don't pin the withdrawal on Obama, he could not make Iraq allow us to stay.

    You can't blame the successor, a man who never supported the war, for the fuck up of the predecessor.

    Let's cut the history revision crap please.

    So all things being equal you think the troops should have stayed?
    no. they never should have been there to begin with.

    i said it in 2003 back when people on this message board were telling me to get the fuck out of america. i protested. just like pearl jam, just like the dixie chicks. just like the countless other ones. we were right.
    Yet Ted Nugent and Phil Robertson go full retard and these cons cry "Freedom of speech! Wah! Derp! Murica!"
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  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    badbrains said:

    Common theme, we fucked shit up, everywhere. Makes you wonder if it's done purposely. How can a country with all these "think tanks" be so wrong over and over again??

    Very simple, driven by money rather than what's best for the masses. War creates serious profit and protects corporate interests. Only reason we are in Middle East. To think otherwise is living in false star of reality

    Yet to get a public behind such ventures is as simple as adding fear. So easy to do and humans will fall for it time and again. Hell no need to wait a generation.

    Course add a little team building and it's a lock.

    Script:

    Evildoers. WMD's Axis of Evil Terrorists. Killing Christians.

    USA USA USA USA. Support The Troops

    And we're smarter than whales???. Riiiiiiiiiiight.
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  • Stickman12Stickman12 Posts: 502
    Never supported the full withdrawal of troops. Would support drawing down US troop numbers and having a NATO force continue on with US involvement. At this point it is almost political suicide for someone to suggest that we reintroduce US forces again given the sacrifices and losses that many families had to endure.
  • Dirtie_FrankDirtie_Frank Posts: 1,325

    Its not a moot point as Prime Minister Maliki didn't want the US in Iraq and the US didn't want to stay due to the unreasonable terms insisted upon by the Iraqi government. What you're advocating for then is/was a re-invasion of Iraq, trampling all over their sovereignty and their democratic process, which was the justification given for the invasion after there were no WMDs found, no ties to Al Qaeda and Saddam was executed. Revisionist history won't eliminate the facts.

    I hate this argument, there were chemical weapons found as well as chemical weapons snuck out of the country into the hands of Syria. Where do you think Bashar Al Assad got the chemical weapons he used in Syria? As well as approximately 5 gallons of Anthrax can kill about 90% of the eastern seaboard of the US. Now try to find that in something in the size of Montana. I was in Iraq, I understand the doubt, but I am still proud of what I did there. People thanked me for getting rid of Saddam. The US plan to defeat Iraq was flawless, but after that we were lost.

    http://www.defense.gov/News/NewsArticle.aspx?ID=15918

    By Samantha L. Quigley
    American Forces Press Service
    WASHINGTON, June 29, 2006 – The 500 munitions discovered throughout Iraq since 2003 and discussed in a National Ground Intelligence Center report meet the criteria of weapons of mass destruction, the center's commander said here today.
    "These are chemical weapons as defined under the Chemical Weapons Convention, and yes ... they do constitute weapons of mass destruction," Army Col. John Chu told the House Armed Services Committee.
    The Chemical Weapons Convention is an arms control agreement which outlaws the production, stockpiling and use of chemical weapons. It was signed in 1993 and entered into force in 1997.
    The munitions found contain sarin and mustard gases, Army Lt. Gen. Michael D. Maples, director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, said. Sarin attacks the neurological system and is potentially lethal.
    "Mustard is a blister agent (that) actually produces burning of any area (where) an individual may come in contact with the agent," he said. It also is potentially fatal if it gets into a person's lungs.
    The munitions addressed in the report were produced in the 1980s, Maples said. Badly corroded, they could not currently be used as originally intended, Chu added.
    While that's reassuring, the agent remaining in the weapons would be very valuable to terrorists and insurgents, Maples said. "We're talking chemical agents here that could be packaged in a different format and have a great effect," he said, referencing the sarin-gas attack on a Japanese subway in the mid-1990s.
    This is true even considering any degradation of the chemical agents that may have occurred, Chu said. It's not known exactly how sarin breaks down, but no matter how degraded the agent is, it's still toxic.
    "Regardless of (how much material in the weapon is actually chemical agent), any remaining agent is toxic," he said. "Anything above zero (percent agent) would prove to be toxic, and if you were exposed to it long enough, lethal."
    Though about 500 chemical weapons - the exact number has not been released publicly - have been found, Maples said he doesn't believe Iraq is a "WMD-free zone."
    "I do believe the former regime did a very poor job of accountability of munitions, and certainly did not document the destruction of munitions," he said. "The recovery program goes on, and I do not believe we have found all the weapons."
    The Defense Intelligence Agency director said locating and disposing of chemical weapons in Iraq is one of the most important tasks servicemembers in the country perform.
    Maples added searches are ongoing for chemical weapons beyond those being conducted solely for force protection.
    There has been a call for a complete declassification of the National Ground Intelligence Center's report on WMD in Iraq. Maples said he believes the director of national intelligence is still considering this option, and has asked Maples to look into producing an unclassified paper addressing the subject matter in the center's report.
    Much of the classified matter was slated for discussion in a closed forum after the open hearings this morning.
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  • SmellymanSmellyman AsiaPosts: 2,537

    How about knowing that if asshat Chaney & bush didn't push for that war we could of saved 4thousand Amrrican lives , how about we come to terms with that 1st

    At least they signed up and willinging put their lives in the hands of old white dudes who don't give a shit about them. the HUNDREDS of thousands of innocents is worse. But we are guaranteeing the making of new terrorists so old white dudes cantinue to send us to war.
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 6,470
    edited May 2015
    First and foremost, thank you for your service. I hate this argument as well but for a different reason. The WMDs found in Iraq and to which I'll agree existed, we're not the WMDs as publicized and advertised by the Bush administration in the run up to the war. There were no mobile biological and chemical labs, capable of creating WMDs on the run, moving around the country, coupled with a missile capability able to reach the US. Nor was there any nuclear capability or "don't let the smoking gun be in the form of a mushroom cloud." Further, the WMDs that were found and disposed of by US forces were left over artillery shells, provided by the US to Iraq during the Iraq/Iran war. Syria, under Assad, recently complied with the UN in giving up their chemical weapons and the UN has signed off on their compliance with having them destroyed aboard ships offshore. Are they all gone? Who knows. But wouldn't that be one more reason why the invasion of Iraq was a mistake? That by doing so, these types of weapons became vulnerable to seizure or in the chaos, being made available to terrorists for a price? There has been no evidence to date that Saddam sold, provided or had relationships with external terrorist organizations. Further, Al Qaeda and others despised him and his regime and viewed him as an enemy, like the US but lower on their list of priorities. Assad is currently using crude chemical weapons in the form of barrel bombs and chlorine gas which is readily availed due to it's manufacturing and commercial uses. If the report you link to and cite from 2006 is to be believed, why haven't we seen ISIS or Syria use them in the current conflict? Remember, Cheney declared Iraq had a nuclear capability on Meet the Press. That is what I think of when I think WMD. Not artillery shells similar to what was used in WWI. Hell, the daisy cutters dropped on Bora Bora could be considered WMD, while not chemical in nature.

    The munitions addressed in the report were produced in the 1980s, Maples said. Badly corroded, they could not currently be used as originally intended, Chu added.
    Post edited by Halifax2TheMax on
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  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    Let me get this straight on the wmds in Iraq. Maybe this will clear some shit up. Now think real hard for a minute. Back in 03, we "knew" they had wmds, we DIDNT know where they stored them. But yet we went and dropped 1000's of bombs on Iraq a day, all the while NOT KNOWING where said wmds were, KNOWING we can actually hit 1 with OUR own bombs and set them off? Destroying an entire region and killing how many of our OWN soldiers? What president would want ALL that blood on his hands? Come on, we knew they DIDNT have any, that's why we were dropping 3000 bombs a fucken day on Iraq. Think about it, why drop 1000's of bombs on a country when you think they have wmds but yet not know where. Think about it.
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    And as for Syria and chemical weapons, please. Wasn't it proven it was the rebels who used the chemicals? That story disappeared as soon as the report came out it was the rebels. Stop buying what they're selling you on tv.
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255

    Its not a moot point as Prime Minister Maliki didn't want the US in Iraq and the US didn't want to stay due to the unreasonable terms insisted upon by the Iraqi government. What you're advocating for then is/was a re-invasion of Iraq, trampling all over their sovereignty and their democratic process, which was the justification given for the invasion after there were no WMDs found, no ties to Al Qaeda and Saddam was executed. Revisionist history won't eliminate the facts.

    I hate this argument, there were chemical weapons found as well as chemical weapons snuck out of the country into the hands of Syria. Where do you think Bashar Al Assad got the chemical weapons he used in Syria? As well as approximately 5 gallons of Anthrax can kill about 90% of the eastern seaboard of the US. Now try to find that in something in the size of Montana. I was in Iraq, I understand the doubt, but I am still proud of what I did there. People thanked me for getting rid of Saddam. The US plan to defeat Iraq was flawless, but after that we were lost.

    http://www.defense.gov/News/NewsArticle.aspx?ID=15918

    By Samantha L. Quigley
    American Forces Press Service
    WASHINGTON, June 29, 2006 – The 500 munitions discovered throughout Iraq since 2003 and discussed in a National Ground Intelligence Center report meet the criteria of weapons of mass destruction, the center's commander said here today.
    "These are chemical weapons as defined under the Chemical Weapons Convention, and yes ... they do constitute weapons of mass destruction," Army Col. John Chu told the House Armed Services Committee.
    The Chemical Weapons Convention is an arms control agreement which outlaws the production, stockpiling and use of chemical weapons. It was signed in 1993 and entered into force in 1997.
    The munitions found contain sarin and mustard gases, Army Lt. Gen. Michael D. Maples, director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, said. Sarin attacks the neurological system and is potentially lethal.
    "Mustard is a blister agent (that) actually produces burning of any area (where) an individual may come in contact with the agent," he said. It also is potentially fatal if it gets into a person's lungs.
    The munitions addressed in the report were produced in the 1980s, Maples said. Badly corroded, they could not currently be used as originally intended, Chu added.
    While that's reassuring, the agent remaining in the weapons would be very valuable to terrorists and insurgents, Maples said. "We're talking chemical agents here that could be packaged in a different format and have a great effect," he said, referencing the sarin-gas attack on a Japanese subway in the mid-1990s.
    This is true even considering any degradation of the chemical agents that may have occurred, Chu said. It's not known exactly how sarin breaks down, but no matter how degraded the agent is, it's still toxic.
    "Regardless of (how much material in the weapon is actually chemical agent), any remaining agent is toxic," he said. "Anything above zero (percent agent) would prove to be toxic, and if you were exposed to it long enough, lethal."
    Though about 500 chemical weapons - the exact number has not been released publicly - have been found, Maples said he doesn't believe Iraq is a "WMD-free zone."
    "I do believe the former regime did a very poor job of accountability of munitions, and certainly did not document the destruction of munitions," he said. "The recovery program goes on, and I do not believe we have found all the weapons."
    The Defense Intelligence Agency director said locating and disposing of chemical weapons in Iraq is one of the most important tasks servicemembers in the country perform.
    Maples added searches are ongoing for chemical weapons beyond those being conducted solely for force protection.
    There has been a call for a complete declassification of the National Ground Intelligence Center's report on WMD in Iraq. Maples said he believes the director of national intelligence is still considering this option, and has asked Maples to look into producing an unclassified paper addressing the subject matter in the center's report.
    Much of the classified matter was slated for discussion in a closed forum after the open hearings this morning.
    The plan to defeat Iraq was flawless? Wtf. I guess when you drop 1000's of bombs a day on a country could be called flawless, if you subtract the 5000 lives killed during fighting, oh and can we add all the suicides by our own soldiers when they've returned home to that official death count? Where's the stories of those soldiers? Do their lives not count? As a soldier, you should be up in arms over this. Weither you're proud or not of what you did there, those are your fellow brothers and sisters. We should all be trying to bring them home. Not send them on another useless mission.
  • muskydanmuskydan Posts: 1,013

    Its not a moot point as Prime Minister Maliki didn't want the US in Iraq and the US didn't want to stay due to the unreasonable terms insisted upon by the Iraqi government. What you're advocating for then is/was a re-invasion of Iraq, trampling all over their sovereignty and their democratic process, which was the justification given for the invasion after there were no WMDs found, no ties to Al Qaeda and Saddam was executed. Revisionist history won't eliminate the facts.

    I hate this argument, there were chemical weapons found as well as chemical weapons snuck out of the country into the hands of Syria. Where do you think Bashar Al Assad got the chemical weapons he used in Syria? As well as approximately 5 gallons of Anthrax can kill about 90% of the eastern seaboard of the US. Now try to find that in something in the size of Montana. I was in Iraq, I understand the doubt, but I am still proud of what I did there. People thanked me for getting rid of Saddam. The US plan to defeat Iraq was flawless, but after that we were lost.

    http://www.defense.gov/News/NewsArticle.aspx?ID=15918

    By Samantha L. Quigley
    American Forces Press Service
    WASHINGTON, June 29, 2006 – The 500 munitions discovered throughout Iraq since 2003 and discussed in a National Ground Intelligence Center report meet the criteria of weapons of mass destruction, the center's commander said here today.
    "These are chemical weapons as defined under the Chemical Weapons Convention, and yes ... they do constitute weapons of mass destruction," Army Col. John Chu told the House Armed Services Committee.
    The Chemical Weapons Convention is an arms control agreement which outlaws the production, stockpiling and use of chemical weapons. It was signed in 1993 and entered into force in 1997.
    The munitions found contain sarin and mustard gases, Army Lt. Gen. Michael D. Maples, director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, said. Sarin attacks the neurological system and is potentially lethal.
    "Mustard is a blister agent (that) actually produces burning of any area (where) an individual may come in contact with the agent," he said. It also is potentially fatal if it gets into a person's lungs.
    The munitions addressed in the report were produced in the 1980s, Maples said. Badly corroded, they could not currently be used as originally intended, Chu added.
    While that's reassuring, the agent remaining in the weapons would be very valuable to terrorists and insurgents, Maples said. "We're talking chemical agents here that could be packaged in a different format and have a great effect," he said, referencing the sarin-gas attack on a Japanese subway in the mid-1990s.
    This is true even considering any degradation of the chemical agents that may have occurred, Chu said. It's not known exactly how sarin breaks down, but no matter how degraded the agent is, it's still toxic.
    "Regardless of (how much material in the weapon is actually chemical agent), any remaining agent is toxic," he said. "Anything above zero (percent agent) would prove to be toxic, and if you were exposed to it long enough, lethal."
    Though about 500 chemical weapons - the exact number has not been released publicly - have been found, Maples said he doesn't believe Iraq is a "WMD-free zone."
    "I do believe the former regime did a very poor job of accountability of munitions, and certainly did not document the destruction of munitions," he said. "The recovery program goes on, and I do not believe we have found all the weapons."
    The Defense Intelligence Agency director said locating and disposing of chemical weapons in Iraq is one of the most important tasks servicemembers in the country perform.
    Maples added searches are ongoing for chemical weapons beyond those being conducted solely for force protection.
    There has been a call for a complete declassification of the National Ground Intelligence Center's report on WMD in Iraq. Maples said he believes the director of national intelligence is still considering this option, and has asked Maples to look into producing an unclassified paper addressing the subject matter in the center's report.
    Much of the classified matter was slated for discussion in a closed forum after the open hearings this morning.
    Thank you for your service Dirty and for all the sacrifices you and your fellow Vets made to make some (not many on here) and definitely this American Proud. No need to listen to many of the Kuckleheads on here cause you were there and you know what was going on. I hope you have a great Memorial Day w/ your family and Long Live ROCK and the Good Ole U.S -FUCKIN -A!!!!!
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 4,548
    muskydan said:

    Its not a moot point as Prime Minister Maliki didn't want the US in Iraq and the US didn't want to stay due to the unreasonable terms insisted upon by the Iraqi government. What you're advocating for then is/was a re-invasion of Iraq, trampling all over their sovereignty and their democratic process, which was the justification given for the invasion after there were no WMDs found, no ties to Al Qaeda and Saddam was executed. Revisionist history won't eliminate the facts.

    I hate this argument, there were chemical weapons found as well as chemical weapons snuck out of the country into the hands of Syria. Where do you think Bashar Al Assad got the chemical weapons he used in Syria? As well as approximately 5 gallons of Anthrax can kill about 90% of the eastern seaboard of the US. Now try to find that in something in the size of Montana. I was in Iraq, I understand the doubt, but I am still proud of what I did there. People thanked me for getting rid of Saddam. The US plan to defeat Iraq was flawless, but after that we were lost.

    http://www.defense.gov/News/NewsArticle.aspx?ID=15918

    By Samantha L. Quigley
    American Forces Press Service
    WASHINGTON, June 29, 2006 – The 500 munitions discovered throughout Iraq since 2003 and discussed in a National Ground Intelligence Center report meet the criteria of weapons of mass destruction, the center's commander said here today.
    "These are chemical weapons as defined under the Chemical Weapons Convention, and yes ... they do constitute weapons of mass destruction," Army Col. John Chu told the House Armed Services Committee.
    The Chemical Weapons Convention is an arms control agreement which outlaws the production, stockpiling and use of chemical weapons. It was signed in 1993 and entered into force in 1997.
    The munitions found contain sarin and mustard gases, Army Lt. Gen. Michael D. Maples, director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, said. Sarin attacks the neurological system and is potentially lethal.
    "Mustard is a blister agent (that) actually produces burning of any area (where) an individual may come in contact with the agent," he said. It also is potentially fatal if it gets into a person's lungs.
    The munitions addressed in the report were produced in the 1980s, Maples said. Badly corroded, they could not currently be used as originally intended, Chu added.
    While that's reassuring, the agent remaining in the weapons would be very valuable to terrorists and insurgents, Maples said. "We're talking chemical agents here that could be packaged in a different format and have a great effect," he said, referencing the sarin-gas attack on a Japanese subway in the mid-1990s.
    This is true even considering any degradation of the chemical agents that may have occurred, Chu said. It's not known exactly how sarin breaks down, but no matter how degraded the agent is, it's still toxic.
    "Regardless of (how much material in the weapon is actually chemical agent), any remaining agent is toxic," he said. "Anything above zero (percent agent) would prove to be toxic, and if you were exposed to it long enough, lethal."
    Though about 500 chemical weapons - the exact number has not been released publicly - have been found, Maples said he doesn't believe Iraq is a "WMD-free zone."
    "I do believe the former regime did a very poor job of accountability of munitions, and certainly did not document the destruction of munitions," he said. "The recovery program goes on, and I do not believe we have found all the weapons."
    The Defense Intelligence Agency director said locating and disposing of chemical weapons in Iraq is one of the most important tasks servicemembers in the country perform.
    Maples added searches are ongoing for chemical weapons beyond those being conducted solely for force protection.
    There has been a call for a complete declassification of the National Ground Intelligence Center's report on WMD in Iraq. Maples said he believes the director of national intelligence is still considering this option, and has asked Maples to look into producing an unclassified paper addressing the subject matter in the center's report.
    Much of the classified matter was slated for discussion in a closed forum after the open hearings this morning.
    Thank you for your service Dirty and for all the sacrifices you and your fellow Vets made to make some (not many on here) and definitely this American Proud. No need to listen to many of the Kuckleheads on here cause you were there and you know what was going on. I hope you have a great Memorial Day w/ your family and Long Live ROCK and the Good Ole U.S -FUCKIN -A!!!!!
    Here here
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 19,008
    edited May 2015
    muskydan said:

    Its not a moot point as Prime Minister Maliki didn't want the US in Iraq and the US didn't want to stay due to the unreasonable terms insisted upon by the Iraqi government. What you're advocating for then is/was a re-invasion of Iraq, trampling all over their sovereignty and their democratic process, which was the justification given for the invasion after there were no WMDs found, no ties to Al Qaeda and Saddam was executed. Revisionist history won't eliminate the facts.

    I hate this argument, there were chemical weapons found as well as chemical weapons snuck out of the country into the hands of Syria. Where do you think Bashar Al Assad got the chemical weapons he used in Syria? As well as approximately 5 gallons of Anthrax can kill about 90% of the eastern seaboard of the US. Now try to find that in something in the size of Montana. I was in Iraq, I understand the doubt, but I am still proud of what I did there. People thanked me for getting rid of Saddam. The US plan to defeat Iraq was flawless, but after that we were lost.

    http://www.defense.gov/News/NewsArticle.aspx?ID=15918

    By Samantha L. Quigley
    American Forces Press Service
    WASHINGTON, June 29, 2006 – The 500 munitions discovered throughout Iraq since 2003 and discussed in a National Ground Intelligence Center report meet the criteria of weapons of mass destruction, the center's commander said here today.
    "These are chemical weapons as defined under the Chemical Weapons Convention, and yes ... they do constitute weapons of mass destruction," Army Col. John Chu told the House Armed Services Committee.
    The Chemical Weapons Convention is an arms control agreement which outlaws the production, stockpiling and use of chemical weapons. It was signed in 1993 and entered into force in 1997.
    The munitions found contain sarin and mustard gases, Army Lt. Gen. Michael D. Maples, director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, said. Sarin attacks the neurological system and is potentially lethal.
    "Mustard is a blister agent (that) actually produces burning of any area (where) an individual may come in contact with the agent," he said. It also is potentially fatal if it gets into a person's lungs.
    The munitions addressed in the report were produced in the 1980s, Maples said. Badly corroded, they could not currently be used as originally intended, Chu added.
    While that's reassuring, the agent remaining in the weapons would be very valuable to terrorists and insurgents, Maples said. "We're talking chemical agents here that could be packaged in a different format and have a great effect," he said, referencing the sarin-gas attack on a Japanese subway in the mid-1990s.
    This is true even considering any degradation of the chemical agents that may have occurred, Chu said. It's not known exactly how sarin breaks down, but no matter how degraded the agent is, it's still toxic.
    "Regardless of (how much material in the weapon is actually chemical agent), any remaining agent is toxic," he said. "Anything above zero (percent agent) would prove to be toxic, and if you were exposed to it long enough, lethal."
    Though about 500 chemical weapons - the exact number has not been released publicly - have been found, Maples said he doesn't believe Iraq is a "WMD-free zone."
    "I do believe the former regime did a very poor job of accountability of munitions, and certainly did not document the destruction of munitions," he said. "The recovery program goes on, and I do not believe we have found all the weapons."
    The Defense Intelligence Agency director said locating and disposing of chemical weapons in Iraq is one of the most important tasks servicemembers in the country perform.
    Maples added searches are ongoing for chemical weapons beyond those being conducted solely for force protection.
    There has been a call for a complete declassification of the National Ground Intelligence Center's report on WMD in Iraq. Maples said he believes the director of national intelligence is still considering this option, and has asked Maples to look into producing an unclassified paper addressing the subject matter in the center's report.
    Much of the classified matter was slated for discussion in a closed forum after the open hearings this morning.
    Thank you for your service Dirty and for all the sacrifices you and your fellow Vets made to make some (not many on here) and definitely this American Proud. No need to listen to many of the Kuckleheads on here cause you were there and you know what was going on. I hope you have a great Memorial Day w/ your family and Long Live ROCK and the Good Ole U.S -FUCKIN -A!!!!!
    Don't forget though that some of the "kuckleheads" on this forum very much support the troops yet are strongly anti-war. And that goes clear back to Vietnam , before many of you young guys were born.


    Post edited by brianlux on
    "Anger is an energy."
    -John Lydon
    "Lost causes are the only causes worth fighting for."
    -Martin Sheen

    Adams Center, Missoula, MT 09/30/12
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    These "knuckleheads" support the troops more so then you ass clowns. We're trying to keep them here, and alive. Unlike some of you "proud" fucken Americans who have hard ons for war. Fuck out of here. You want war, go fucken serve mr proud American. Take your Canadian "professor" with you. Maybe U2 ass clowns can learn something real, not csi or Chicago pd. A fake ass cop and a fake ass American wanting more war. And we're the ones who DONT support the troops? What a joke.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 19,008
    badbrains said:

    These "knuckleheads" support the troops more so then you ass clowns. We're trying to keep them here, and alive. Unlike some of you "proud" fucken Americans who have hard ons for war. Fuck out of here. You want war, go fucken serve mr proud American. Take your Canadian "professor" with you. Maybe U2 ass clowns can learn something real, not csi or Chicago pd. A fake ass cop and a fake ass American wanting more war. And we're the ones who DONT support the troops? What a joke.

    Totally agree with bb.

    And before you guys get to hot over this, you know it's true. A true patriot would never support the kinds of wars the US has engaged in over the last several decades. And I have family who have served in some of those conflicts that occurred over that long time and I know the price they paid and they have my full support and they know how I feel which is "fuck those so-called wars".

    "Anger is an energy."
    -John Lydon
    "Lost causes are the only causes worth fighting for."
    -Martin Sheen

    Adams Center, Missoula, MT 09/30/12
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    brianlux said:

    badbrains said:

    These "knuckleheads" support the troops more so then you ass clowns. We're trying to keep them here, and alive. Unlike some of you "proud" fucken Americans who have hard ons for war. Fuck out of here. You want war, go fucken serve mr proud American. Take your Canadian "professor" with you. Maybe U2 ass clowns can learn something real, not csi or Chicago pd. A fake ass cop and a fake ass American wanting more war. And we're the ones who DONT support the troops? What a joke.

    Totally agree with bb.

    And before you guys get to hot over this, you know it's true. A true patriot would never support the kinds of wars the US has engaged in over the last several decades. And I have family who have served in some of those conflicts that occurred over that long time and I know the price they paid and they have my full support and they know how I feel which is "fuck those so-called wars".

    You don't have to make it clear to them Brian that you support the troops. Anyone that knows anything about you knows this. It's ridiculous that someone would actually think that anyone that says anything anti-war means they're anti-America or anti-soldiers. You know how fucken silly that makes you look when you make lame ass statements like that.
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 5,855
    edited May 2015
    Probably the 10th time I posted this...it's the only point worth making in this discussion. People who throw that slogan at you are usually pretty far gone...

    The point of public relations slogans like “Support our troops” is that they don’t mean anything… That’s the whole point of good propaganda.You want to create a slogan that nobody’s going to be against, and everybody’s going to be for.Nobody knows what it means, because it doesn’t mean anything.Its crucial value is that it diverts your attention from a question that does mean something: Do you support our policy?
    Noam Chomsky
    Post edited by Drowned Out on
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 19,008

    Probably the 10th time I posted this...it's the only point worth making in this discussion. People who throw that slogan at you are usually pretty far gone...

    The point of public relations slogans like “Support our troops” is that they don’t mean anything… That’s the whole point of good propaganda.You want to create a slogan that nobody’s going to be against, and everybody’s going to be for.Nobody knows what it means, because it doesn’t mean anything.Its crucial value is that it diverts your attention from a question that does mean something: Do you support our policy?
    Noam Chomsky

    I have to both agree and disagree here, Drowned Out. I like the Chomsky quote and it makes a lot of sense. The question "Do you support our policy?" certainly gets to the root of things and at that level, ones answer to it is the most revealing as to where one stands. It also requires more thinking so its a deeper question as well.

    But when I say I "support our troops", I don't use it as a slogan. Carlin once said "symbols are for the symbol-minded". I'm sure he would have said something similar about slogans if the alliteration of that word worked better that way. No, I say I "support out troops" in a general sense in that too many young men (and today, some young women) are sent off to die for policies I don't accept agree with and I oppose those lives being wasted in support of those policies and, more specifically, I support those whom I personally know who have suffered mentally and physically as a result of being sent to Vietnam and the Middle East.

    So I understand what Chomsky is saying in a broad sense but I would be very offended if he made that statement to me personally withput understand why I use the term (term, not slogan) "support the troops".

    In any case, Chomsky's statement definitely bears a consideration.

    "Anger is an energy."
    -John Lydon
    "Lost causes are the only causes worth fighting for."
    -Martin Sheen

    Adams Center, Missoula, MT 09/30/12
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 4,548
    Musky never accused any of you "knuckleheads" of not supporting the troops. Go back and read it. He was talking about Dirty's knowledge of what went on over there.

    Sensitive much?
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