Tamir Rice shooting (12yr old)

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Comments

  • image

    Pretty much.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 8,825

    image

    It amazes me that people are too blind to see white privilege, or have the balls to deny it because they don't like the implications.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 10,649
    no one is denying white privelege, but I am able to base a case on its own merit, not simply the color of the victim's skin. I truly believe that if this kid were white, all other things being the same, he still would have been shot dead.
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 8,825

    no one is denying white privelege, but I am able to base a case on its own merit, not simply the color of the victim's skin. I truly believe that if this kid were white, all other things being the same, he still would have been shot dead.

    People here were denying white privilege.
    If the kid was white the cops may have never been called in the first place, the dispatcher may have relayed the information given more accurately, and yes, the cops may have dealt with him completely differently. Those are all "may"s, but there is no question that this stuff happens.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 10,649
    rgambs said:

    no one is denying white privelege, but I am able to base a case on its own merit, not simply the color of the victim's skin. I truly believe that if this kid were white, all other things being the same, he still would have been shot dead.

    People here were denying white privilege.
    If the kid was white the cops may have never been called in the first place, the dispatcher may have relayed the information given more accurately, and yes, the cops may have dealt with him completely differently. Those are all "may"s, but there is no question that this stuff happens.
    exactly, all pure speculation. saying the dispatcher may have relayed the info more accurately is a very BIG stretch. that is suggesting intent on the dispatcher's part.

    and of course it happens, but I believe in this instance race was irrelevant.

  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 8,825

    rgambs said:

    no one is denying white privelege, but I am able to base a case on its own merit, not simply the color of the victim's skin. I truly believe that if this kid were white, all other things being the same, he still would have been shot dead.

    People here were denying white privilege.
    If the kid was white the cops may have never been called in the first place, the dispatcher may have relayed the information given more accurately, and yes, the cops may have dealt with him completely differently. Those are all "may"s, but there is no question that this stuff happens.
    exactly, all pure speculation. saying the dispatcher may have relayed the info more accurately is a very BIG stretch. that is suggesting intent on the dispatcher's part.

    and of course it happens, but I believe in this instance race was irrelevant.

    That's the point though, you can't ever rule it out as a possibility.
    As far as the dispatch, it isn't a big stretch at all. Racial bias is real, studies have shown all sorts of crazy things racial bias will cause, like the fact that people shown a picture are often unable to correctly determine which person in the photo is holding a knife when it is in the white persons hand.
    It isn't a big stretch by any measure to imagine a dispatcher giving more details on a white suspect than black.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 10,649
    rgambs said:

    rgambs said:

    no one is denying white privelege, but I am able to base a case on its own merit, not simply the color of the victim's skin. I truly believe that if this kid were white, all other things being the same, he still would have been shot dead.

    People here were denying white privilege.
    If the kid was white the cops may have never been called in the first place, the dispatcher may have relayed the information given more accurately, and yes, the cops may have dealt with him completely differently. Those are all "may"s, but there is no question that this stuff happens.
    exactly, all pure speculation. saying the dispatcher may have relayed the info more accurately is a very BIG stretch. that is suggesting intent on the dispatcher's part.

    and of course it happens, but I believe in this instance race was irrelevant.

    That's the point though, you can't ever rule it out as a possibility.
    As far as the dispatch, it isn't a big stretch at all. Racial bias is real, studies have shown all sorts of crazy things racial bias will cause, like the fact that people shown a picture are often unable to correctly determine which person in the photo is holding a knife when it is in the white persons hand.
    It isn't a big stretch by any measure to imagine a dispatcher giving more details on a white suspect than black.
    it is a big stretch when it is based on zero evidence.

    again, I am not denying racial bias is real. but you can't assume it is the cause in every instance. you can look into it in every instance, but assuming it is the cause is irresponsible.

  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 13,343
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  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 8,825
    America The Beautiful
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • What a 'rub it in your face', disrespectful, low class, brutal thing to do.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 10,649
    Along similar lines, a week ago here in Winnipeg, a 17 year old kid went missing after leaving a house party allegedly looking to score drugs. I couldn't go on social media the entire time without being inundated with updates from all media outlets. He was found in a garbage bin early this morning. I have seen countless other teens go missing, with zero media coverage for any of them. All just media releases from the police or families sharing the info on facebook.

    This kid? White
    All the others? Aboriginal.

    Sickening.
  • Along similar lines, a week ago here in Winnipeg, a 17 year old kid went missing after leaving a house party allegedly looking to score drugs. I couldn't go on social media the entire time without being inundated with updates from all media outlets. He was found in a garbage bin early this morning. I have seen countless other teens go missing, with zero media coverage for any of them. All just media releases from the police or families sharing the info on facebook.

    This kid? White
    All the others? Aboriginal.

    Sickening.

    ???????????

    Holy shit.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 10,649

    Along similar lines, a week ago here in Winnipeg, a 17 year old kid went missing after leaving a house party allegedly looking to score drugs. I couldn't go on social media the entire time without being inundated with updates from all media outlets. He was found in a garbage bin early this morning. I have seen countless other teens go missing, with zero media coverage for any of them. All just media releases from the police or families sharing the info on facebook.

    This kid? White
    All the others? Aboriginal.

    Sickening.

    ???????????

    Holy shit.
    It seems I must retract my disgust.I saw on twitter this morning that a traditional "smudge" ceremony is being planned for him, suggesting he as at least part aboriginal. So this is completely inconsistent with the norm. Maybe cause he appeared white? maybe because the community he came from wasn't the core area? hard to explain it. but it appears my judgment may have been a little too swift.
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 13,343
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 13,343
    edited May 30
    shooter fired for inaccurate info provided on application for hire.

    http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN18Q237?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook

    By Timothy Mclaughlin

    An Ohio police officer who fatally shot a black 12-year-old boy in 2014 was fired on Tuesday after an internal investigation found he provided inaccurate information on his application to join the police, city officials said.

    Timothy Loehmann, a rookie with the Cleveland Division of Police, shot Tamir Rice, who was playing in a playground with a toy gun that fired pellets.

    It was one of a string of killings that fueled protests against use of deadly force by U.S. police, particularly against minorities.

    "Patrol Officer Loehmann had been charged with rule violations concerning his application process to be considered a cadet with the division of police, specifically answers he had provided on his personal history statement," Cleveland Director of Public Safety Michael McGrath said at a news conference.

    Those violations had been confirmed during an investigation that included a disciplinary hearing on May 2, McGrath said.

    Frank Garmback, a second officer involved in the shooting, will be suspended for 10 days for improper tactics and receive additional tactical training, McGrath said.

    "What we don't see ... is any mention of accountability for the people at the city who permitted Loehmann to become an officer to begin with," Subodh Chandra, an attorney for the Rice family, was quoted as saying by local NBC affiliate WKYC-TV.

    "There's absolutely not a hint of that. There's no explanation, there's no accountability ...," he said.

    The Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association, the union which represents officers, is expected to address the disciplinary measures later on Tuesday, local media reported.


    Post edited by mickeyrat on
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • tbergstbergs Posts: 2,464
    mickeyrat said:
    shooter fired for inaccurate info provided on application for hire.

    http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN18Q237?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook

    By Timothy Mclaughlin

    An Ohio police officer who fatally shot a black 12-year-old boy in 2014 was fired on Tuesday after an internal investigation found he provided inaccurate information on his application to join the police, city officials said.

    Timothy Loehmann, a rookie with the Cleveland Division of Police, shot Tamir Rice, who was playing in a playground with a toy gun that fired pellets.

    It was one of a string of killings that fueled protests against use of deadly force by U.S. police, particularly against minorities.

    "Patrol Officer Loehmann had been charged with rule violations concerning his application process to be considered a cadet with the division of police, specifically answers he had provided on his personal history statement," Cleveland Director of Public Safety Michael McGrath said at a news conference.

    Those violations had been confirmed during an investigation that included a disciplinary hearing on May 2, McGrath said.

    Frank Garmback, a second officer involved in the shooting, will be suspended for 10 days for improper tactics and receive additional tactical training, McGrath said.

    "What we don't see ... is any mention of accountability for the people at the city who permitted Loehmann to become an officer to begin with," Subodh Chandra, an attorney for the Rice family, was quoted as saying by local NBC affiliate WKYC-TV.

    "There's absolutely not a hint of that. There's no explanation, there's no accountability ...," he said.

    The Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association, the union which represents officers, is expected to address the disciplinary measures later on Tuesday, local media reported.


    Too bad they didn't do their due diligence at the time of hire. The background investigator is ultimately responsible for that failure and should be disciplined appropriately.
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • CM189191CM189191 Minneapolis via ChicagoPosts: 2,712
    tbergs said:
    mickeyrat said:
    shooter fired for inaccurate info provided on application for hire.

    http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN18Q237?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook

    By Timothy Mclaughlin

    An Ohio police officer who fatally shot a black 12-year-old boy in 2014 was fired on Tuesday after an internal investigation found he provided inaccurate information on his application to join the police, city officials said.

    Timothy Loehmann, a rookie with the Cleveland Division of Police, shot Tamir Rice, who was playing in a playground with a toy gun that fired pellets.

    It was one of a string of killings that fueled protests against use of deadly force by U.S. police, particularly against minorities.

    "Patrol Officer Loehmann had been charged with rule violations concerning his application process to be considered a cadet with the division of police, specifically answers he had provided on his personal history statement," Cleveland Director of Public Safety Michael McGrath said at a news conference.

    Those violations had been confirmed during an investigation that included a disciplinary hearing on May 2, McGrath said.

    Frank Garmback, a second officer involved in the shooting, will be suspended for 10 days for improper tactics and receive additional tactical training, McGrath said.

    "What we don't see ... is any mention of accountability for the people at the city who permitted Loehmann to become an officer to begin with," Subodh Chandra, an attorney for the Rice family, was quoted as saying by local NBC affiliate WKYC-TV.

    "There's absolutely not a hint of that. There's no explanation, there's no accountability ...," he said.

    The Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association, the union which represents officers, is expected to address the disciplinary measures later on Tuesday, local media reported.


    Too bad they didn't do their due diligence at the time of hire. The background investigator is ultimately responsible for that failure and should be disciplined appropriately.

    It's a shame the police aren't held more accountable.  It's amazing more taxpayers aren't outraged over the ensuing wrongful death lawsuits.

    The city on Monday reached a $6 million settlement in a lawsuit over the death of Tamir Rice, a 12-year-old black boy shot by a white police officer while playing with a pellet gun outside a recreation center.

    An order filed in U.S. District Court in Cleveland said the city will pay out $3 million this year and $3 million the next. There was no admission of wrongdoing in the settlement.

    https://apnews.com/afe2c70d06ad4c57930065802e94540f/cleveland-settles-lawsuit-over-tamir-rice-shooting-6m

    WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16
  • CM189191CM189191 Minneapolis via ChicagoPosts: 2,712
    out of curiosity, I went down the line a bit

    Laquan McDonald - $5 million dollar wrongful death settlement
    Eric Garner - $5.9 MM
    Sandra Bland - $1.9 MM
    Freddie Gray - $6.4 MM
    Walter Scott - $6.5 MM
    Dontre Hamilton - $2.3 MM
    Ezell Ford - $1.5 MM
    Akai Gurley - $4 MM
    Jerame Reid - $1.7 MM
    William Chapman II - $1 MM
    Samuel Dubose - $5.3 MM
    Jeremy McDole - $1.5 MM
    Tony Robinson - $3.35 MM
    WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 8,825
    CM189191 said:
    out of curiosity, I went down the line a bit

    Laquan McDonald - $5 million dollar wrongful death settlement
    Eric Garner - $5.9 MM
    Sandra Bland - $1.9 MM
    Freddie Gray - $6.4 MM
    Walter Scott - $6.5 MM
    Dontre Hamilton - $2.3 MM
    Ezell Ford - $1.5 MM
    Akai Gurley - $4 MM
    Jerame Reid - $1.7 MM
    William Chapman II - $1 MM
    Samuel Dubose - $5.3 MM
    Jeremy McDole - $1.5 MM
    Tony Robinson - $3.35 MM
    Sure is alot of money for justified shootings!  
    It's almost as if elected officials representing the public and police investigators representing the police have differing standards?
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • tbergstbergs Posts: 2,464
    rgambs said:
    CM189191 said:
    out of curiosity, I went down the line a bit

    Laquan McDonald - $5 million dollar wrongful death settlement
    Eric Garner - $5.9 MM
    Sandra Bland - $1.9 MM
    Freddie Gray - $6.4 MM
    Walter Scott - $6.5 MM
    Dontre Hamilton - $2.3 MM
    Ezell Ford - $1.5 MM
    Akai Gurley - $4 MM
    Jerame Reid - $1.7 MM
    William Chapman II - $1 MM
    Samuel Dubose - $5.3 MM
    Jeremy McDole - $1.5 MM
    Tony Robinson - $3.35 MM
    Sure is alot of money for justified shootings!  
    It's almost as if elected officials representing the public and police investigators representing the police have differing standards?
    As you, and everyone, is well aware, criminally responsible and civilly responsible are two different things. Much different standard and purpose to a civil suit.
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 5,854
    tbergs said:
    rgambs said:
    CM189191 said:
    out of curiosity, I went down the line a bit

    Laquan McDonald - $5 million dollar wrongful death settlement
    Eric Garner - $5.9 MM
    Sandra Bland - $1.9 MM
    Freddie Gray - $6.4 MM
    Walter Scott - $6.5 MM
    Dontre Hamilton - $2.3 MM
    Ezell Ford - $1.5 MM
    Akai Gurley - $4 MM
    Jerame Reid - $1.7 MM
    William Chapman II - $1 MM
    Samuel Dubose - $5.3 MM
    Jeremy McDole - $1.5 MM
    Tony Robinson - $3.35 MM
    Sure is alot of money for justified shootings!  
    It's almost as if elected officials representing the public and police investigators representing the police have differing standards?
    As you, and everyone, is well aware, criminally responsible and civilly responsible are two different things. Much different standard and purpose to a civil suit.
    But what standard of proof is required in investigations of police misconduct where a criminal charge is not laid? Is it beyond a reasonable doubt, or on balance of probabilities? Or clear and convincing evidence? I haven't been able to find the answer in a quick scan but I would not jump to assume the standard is beyond a reasonable doubt. These proceedings don't fit neatly into criminal or civil. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • tbergstbergs Posts: 2,464
    tbergs said:
    rgambs said:
    CM189191 said:
    out of curiosity, I went down the line a bit

    Laquan McDonald - $5 million dollar wrongful death settlement
    Eric Garner - $5.9 MM
    Sandra Bland - $1.9 MM
    Freddie Gray - $6.4 MM
    Walter Scott - $6.5 MM
    Dontre Hamilton - $2.3 MM
    Ezell Ford - $1.5 MM
    Akai Gurley - $4 MM
    Jerame Reid - $1.7 MM
    William Chapman II - $1 MM
    Samuel Dubose - $5.3 MM
    Jeremy McDole - $1.5 MM
    Tony Robinson - $3.35 MM
    Sure is alot of money for justified shootings!  
    It's almost as if elected officials representing the public and police investigators representing the police have differing standards?
    As you, and everyone, is well aware, criminally responsible and civilly responsible are two different things. Much different standard and purpose to a civil suit.
    But what standard of proof is required in investigations of police misconduct where a criminal charge is not laid? Is it beyond a reasonable doubt, or on balance of probabilities? Or clear and convincing evidence? I haven't been able to find the answer in a quick scan but I would not jump to assume the standard is beyond a reasonable doubt. These proceedings don't fit neatly into criminal or civil. 
    I don't think it's beyond reasonable doubt. The investigation in most will focus on weather there is a failure to follow a policy or procedure so that would fall more under the clear and convincing standard, though I don't think it has an official term in departmental review cases. What varies the most is who handles the investigation. Larger departments usually have internal affairs, while smaller agencies can rely on an outside agency. Here in St. Paul, they recently removed the police representation from the civilian review commission altogether, which has its pros and cons.
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 8,825
    Well, how about that Thirty Bills.
    "Giving ground" they call it.
    Hmmmmm now where have I heard that suggestion before???
    I feel like someone suggested there are situations where tactical retreat, or "giving ground", was a valid de-escalation technique and someone else mocked it like a school yard bully who just learned sarcasm.

    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 7,819
    JC29856 said:
    Sorry, i can't quote says null and i can't edit posts all the time. I only meant to post the shorter snippet.

    Anyone who is familiar with the Tamir Rice murder or has watched the video, or has kept track of the ever changing police statements or has heard about the cop that pulled the trigger would probably disagree with the union reps statements. Not to mention that he further shits on Tamir and his family and friends by making such ridiculous statements.

    Here I'm am basically stating "if he dies, he dies" in my best Ivan Drago voice
    #alt-white
    (And these questions can be re-phrased and asked about 90% of what you asked)
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