Police abuse

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Comments

  • tbergstbergs Posts: 9,195
    unsung said:
    This guys 8 year old daughter tried to kill herself yesterday.
    With a dad like that, she's in a deep hole in this life.
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • unsungunsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
    What is that supposed to mean?
  • tbergstbergs Posts: 9,195
    unsung said:
    What is that supposed to mean?
    My mistake, I thought it was the cop's daughter you were referring to. Had to look it up.
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 8,956
    OnWis97 said:
    I was not familiar with the Shaver case.

    Should be interesting...a cop acquitted of killing a white guy.  And seemingly generating an excuse by playing a game of Simon Says and shooting when an mistake was made.  It's pretty blatant...only the most diehard Blue Backers are using the ol' "he didn't follow instructions" excuse.

    I hope the video becomes the most viral thing ever...a lot of cop excuse-makers, given that the victims are usually black, may have to re-think whether this could happen to them.  This could happen to ANYONE.
    I think it is insulting to think that those who support cops did so because the victims were black, and that that will change with Shaver being white.
  • tbergstbergs Posts: 9,195
    mace1229 said:
    OnWis97 said:
    I was not familiar with the Shaver case.

    Should be interesting...a cop acquitted of killing a white guy.  And seemingly generating an excuse by playing a game of Simon Says and shooting when an mistake was made.  It's pretty blatant...only the most diehard Blue Backers are using the ol' "he didn't follow instructions" excuse.

    I hope the video becomes the most viral thing ever...a lot of cop excuse-makers, given that the victims are usually black, may have to re-think whether this could happen to them.  This could happen to ANYONE.
    I think it is insulting to think that those who support cops did so because the victims were black, and that that will change with Shaver being white.
    I was thinking the exact opposite of OnWis and that those who constantly tout these shootings as a race only issue will need to at least admit bad cops don't only kill minorities. Usually the story breaks of a white cop (or even Asian or Latino) shooting an unarmed black man and everybody jumps on the race card and insinuates non-minorities aren't shot when unarmed. That doesn't mean it isn't a problem, but it's not the problem in every shooting. Most of them come down to inefficient training and lack of de-escalation skills.
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • mace1229 said:
    OnWis97 said:
    I was not familiar with the Shaver case.

    Should be interesting...a cop acquitted of killing a white guy.  And seemingly generating an excuse by playing a game of Simon Says and shooting when an mistake was made.  It's pretty blatant...only the most diehard Blue Backers are using the ol' "he didn't follow instructions" excuse.

    I hope the video becomes the most viral thing ever...a lot of cop excuse-makers, given that the victims are usually black, may have to re-think whether this could happen to them.  This could happen to ANYONE.
    I think it is insulting to think that those who support cops did so because the victims were black, and that that will change with Shaver being white.

    No kidding.

    And you get labelled an ardent 'blue backer' defending cops when they need defending? 

    Each shooting has its own characteristics and not all shootings leave the cop as a redneck, racist bastard in the aftermath- even though the most diehard Blue Haters routinely insist such despite evidence that might suggest otherwise. 
    "My brain's a good brain!"
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  • CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    mace1229 said:
    Why do you think cops should not carry their own guns? Shouldn't they be allowed to use what they are most comfortable with? I mean, within reason. Departments that allow that typically put restrictions on what types of guns/calibers can be carried. 
    I don;t see a difference between that and a mechanic bringing in his own tool set to work. 
    Of course I know tool sets don't kill people. But I don;t see what is wrong with proving cops a list of 9mm and .45 cal guns to chose from, and let them decide what is best for them from an approved list.
    We should follow England's example: the majority of police officers do not carry firearms; that duty is instead carried out by specially-trained firearms officers

    In the USA?

    No way.
    Why not?  Is England better than us? 

    It was already explained to you and is obvious: your country is fraught with guns and people that like to use them. Are you seriously suggesting your police force should be armed with a billy club and some pepper spray? Don't you think that places them at a disadvantage? Given your posting history... I'm sure that's why you are advocating for such: you hate cops at the best of times.

    In answer to your 2nd question... 'yes' in many ways. For example, I'm pretty sure England couldn't rally around a nincompoop like Donald Trump and elect him as their PM. Such a candidate would have been flamed and embarrassingly thrashed. Somewhat in the context of this thread... the country initiated and supported sweeping gun reform to safeguard their country a few decades back and now they are reaping the benefits for doing so (you guys still need to evolve to such a state of mind). 
    "My brain's a good brain!"

  • If I'm reading this graph correctly... of 926 shootings so far this year:

    440 victims were white... I says 'pardon'?
    543 victims had a gun (149 had a knife)... potentially threats to the responding officers.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 8,956
    edited December 2017
    tbergs said:
    mace1229 said:
    OnWis97 said:
    I was not familiar with the Shaver case.

    Should be interesting...a cop acquitted of killing a white guy.  And seemingly generating an excuse by playing a game of Simon Says and shooting when an mistake was made.  It's pretty blatant...only the most diehard Blue Backers are using the ol' "he didn't follow instructions" excuse.

    I hope the video becomes the most viral thing ever...a lot of cop excuse-makers, given that the victims are usually black, may have to re-think whether this could happen to them.  This could happen to ANYONE.
    I think it is insulting to think that those who support cops did so because the victims were black, and that that will change with Shaver being white.
    I was thinking the exact opposite of OnWis and that those who constantly tout these shootings as a race only issue will need to at least admit bad cops don't only kill minorities. Usually the story breaks of a white cop (or even Asian or Latino) shooting an unarmed black man and everybody jumps on the race card and insinuates non-minorities aren't shot when unarmed. That doesn't mean it isn't a problem, but it's not the problem in every shooting. Most of them come down to inefficient training and lack of de-escalation skills.
    This is not the first wrongful shooting of a white guy either though. There's been almost as many that make the news. The problem is they get media attention for about 5 minutes then are forgotten if the victim is white.
    And the comment wasn't pointing out how this isn't really a race issue but a cop issue, he flat out said cop supporters supported cops because the victims were black. That is just outright insulting. 
    If anything blame the anti-cop movement and media and all of the haters of cops for not making a bigger deal of cases involving white victims.
    Post edited by mace1229 on
  • CM189191CM189191 Minneapolis via Chicago Posts: 6,786
    Are you seriously suggesting your police force should be armed with a billy club and some pepper spray? Don't you think that places them at a disadvantage? .
    Yes, that is what I am saying, maybe a taser. As I have been informed by the 2A crowd, police are only there to clean up the mess after the damage has been already done. Otherwise, police have proven themselves trigger happy at the drop of a hat. The police have been militarized and we are the enemy.
    ... the country initiated and supported sweeping gun reform to safeguard their country a few decades back and now they are reaping the benefits for doing so (you guys still need to evolve to such a state of mind). 
    won't get any arguments from me there.
    WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020 AT 07/07/2020
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 8,956
    Good luck getting cops working gang infested LA with a billy club
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 8,956
    I just read a couple articles about the Shaver shooting. I found it interesting because it cleared up some facts that had been wrong.
    The shooter was not the one giving commands. Which is important because I've seen several comments here claiming that the shooter was intentionally baiting him into making a mistake. That can't be true if he wasn't making the commands. Other articles I have read also indicate the shooter was the one giving the commands. So if that is false, that is a big fact that many sources got wrong and has played a factor in the public opinion of this case. This CNN article makes a point to say that is not the case, that the shooter and the one giving commands are two different people. He was an inexperienced cop put in a situation where others were making bad commands.
    http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/11/opinions/daniel-shaver-shooting-opinion-gagliano/index.html

    I'm not saying the shooting was justified, or even the verdict was correct. Just saying it isn't as clear-cut of a bait 'em and shoot 'em scenario as many have made it out to be. 
  • mace1229 said:
    I just read a couple articles about the Shaver shooting. I found it interesting because it cleared up some facts that had been wrong.
    The shooter was not the one giving commands. Which is important because I've seen several comments here claiming that the shooter was intentionally baiting him into making a mistake. That can't be true if he wasn't making the commands. Other articles I have read also indicate the shooter was the one giving the commands. So if that is false, that is a big fact that many sources got wrong and has played a factor in the public opinion of this case. This CNN article makes a point to say that is not the case, that the shooter and the one giving commands are two different people. He was an inexperienced cop put in a situation where others were making bad commands.
    http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/11/opinions/daniel-shaver-shooting-opinion-gagliano/index.html

    I'm not saying the shooting was justified, or even the verdict was correct. Just saying it isn't as clear-cut of a bait 'em and shoot 'em scenario as many have made it out to be. 
    But what was clear was the fact that he was lying on his stomach, unarmed, arms outstretched.

    Very easily, they could have walked to him and cuffed him. I'm not sure why they were shitting their pants?
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MN Posts: 4,814
    edited December 2017
    mace1229 said:
    OnWis97 said:
    I was not familiar with the Shaver case.

    Should be interesting...a cop acquitted of killing a white guy.  And seemingly generating an excuse by playing a game of Simon Says and shooting when an mistake was made.  It's pretty blatant...only the most diehard Blue Backers are using the ol' "he didn't follow instructions" excuse.

    I hope the video becomes the most viral thing ever...a lot of cop excuse-makers, given that the victims are usually black, may have to re-think whether this could happen to them.  This could happen to ANYONE.
    I think it is insulting to think that those who support cops did so because the victims were black, and that that will change with Shaver being white.
    If you don't think a lot of people make excuses for the cops because "the guy was a thug" then I don't know what to tell you.  Seeing a white guy killed by a cop might resonate with people.  I'll tell you this, it resonated with me.

    That doesn't mean that every questionable/unjustified killing is racially motivated.  And it doesn't mean everyone who "backs the blue" (and I mean that in reference to those I view as never, under any circumstances, questioning the shootings) does so because they perceive the victims as only black.  Anecdotally though, there was a different tone to the aftermath of this acquittal than I usually see.  Less interest in his background, less looking to blame the victim...some "he did not follow instructions" but not as much.  There's a ton of nuance here; maybe a cop doesn't say "I'm gonna shoot this guy because of his race" but maybe his (and our entire culture's) biases play into why a black guy might not be following instructions vs. why a white guy might not.  Nuance is not a strength in our social media culture...when it comes to publicized police killings of black men in this country, I'd wager that 90% of us either think they were all justified or they were murders. The reality is a lot grayer than that. (and nuance was not necessarily a strength of my post, either).

    Believe it or not, I generally think most cops want to do a good job and serve the community; ALL of the community.  And it's a difficult job; one I fully admit I could probably not do.  

    I stand by it, though...if white victims were making more news for the same reason, I think the tone of always believing the cop would be a bit less.  So blame the media for jumping on the race issue if you want...if more white victims were publicized then maybe more people would buy into the notion about problems with training, etc.
    Post edited by OnWis97 on
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  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 8,956
    mace1229 said:
    I just read a couple articles about the Shaver shooting. I found it interesting because it cleared up some facts that had been wrong.
    The shooter was not the one giving commands. Which is important because I've seen several comments here claiming that the shooter was intentionally baiting him into making a mistake. That can't be true if he wasn't making the commands. Other articles I have read also indicate the shooter was the one giving the commands. So if that is false, that is a big fact that many sources got wrong and has played a factor in the public opinion of this case. This CNN article makes a point to say that is not the case, that the shooter and the one giving commands are two different people. He was an inexperienced cop put in a situation where others were making bad commands.
    http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/11/opinions/daniel-shaver-shooting-opinion-gagliano/index.html

    I'm not saying the shooting was justified, or even the verdict was correct. Just saying it isn't as clear-cut of a bait 'em and shoot 'em scenario as many have made it out to be. 
    But what was clear was the fact that he was lying on his stomach, unarmed, arms outstretched.

    Very easily, they could have walked to him and cuffed him. I'm not sure why they were shitting their pants?
    I don't disagree that the tactic was poor. The tactics have been criticized by other police as being poor.
    I just thought it was worth pointing out the shooter was not the one giving the instructions. Since it was said multiple times he was baiting him to make a mistake so he could shoot him, I thought it was worth mentioning.

  • If I'm reading this graph correctly... of 926 shootings so far this year:

    440 victims were white... I says 'pardon'?
    543 victims had a gun (149 had a knife)... potentially threats to the responding officers.
    Why the “pardon?” Does that surprise you given that whites make up 76% of the population?
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN;

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  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    I just read a couple articles about the Shaver shooting. I found it interesting because it cleared up some facts that had been wrong.
    The shooter was not the one giving commands. Which is important because I've seen several comments here claiming that the shooter was intentionally baiting him into making a mistake. That can't be true if he wasn't making the commands. Other articles I have read also indicate the shooter was the one giving the commands. So if that is false, that is a big fact that many sources got wrong and has played a factor in the public opinion of this case. This CNN article makes a point to say that is not the case, that the shooter and the one giving commands are two different people. He was an inexperienced cop put in a situation where others were making bad commands.
    http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/11/opinions/daniel-shaver-shooting-opinion-gagliano/index.html

    I'm not saying the shooting was justified, or even the verdict was correct. Just saying it isn't as clear-cut of a bait 'em and shoot 'em scenario as many have made it out to be. 
    But what was clear was the fact that he was lying on his stomach, unarmed, arms outstretched.

    Very easily, they could have walked to him and cuffed him. I'm not sure why they were shitting their pants?
    I don't disagree that the tactic was poor. The tactics have been criticized by other police as being poor.
    I just thought it was worth pointing out the shooter was not the one giving the instructions. Since it was said multiple times he was baiting him to make a mistake so he could shoot him, I thought it was worth mentioning.
    I don't remember exactly what was said, but I don't think anyone thought he was literally baiting this man so he could shoot him.
    I think (on my part for sure) it's more that there is a culture in place that puts unreasonable expectations on suspects and gives them less opportunity to comply than they should have, and that was coupled in this case with an officer who is part of a culture of policing that is hypermasculine and indulges in sick fantasies about taking out bad guys.
    Any scroll through a discussion on police issues will inevitably yield comments from police wishing suspects had run so they could be roughed up with a wide range of similar sentiments being expressed.  It's beyond debate that sick, fucked up men are drawn to the authority of police work, and as a society we need to do a better job of weeding these "tough guys" out.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?

  • If I'm reading this graph correctly... of 926 shootings so far this year:

    440 victims were white... I says 'pardon'?
    543 victims had a gun (149 had a knife)... potentially threats to the responding officers.
    Why the “pardon?” Does that surprise you given that whites make up 76% of the population?
    No, it doesn't surprise me. Let's be honest... the running MT narrative is that the nation's police force had gone rogue and is executing black people during encounters that go slightly awry.

    It's still slightly disproportionate (76% of the population accounting for roughly 55%  of the killings) don't exactly support the aforementioned belief set.

    That graph only tells a portion of the story. For example, link in all the other variables such as socioeconomics and how that relates to race... and how that lends itself to criminal activities.

    Don't get me wrong... I believe there is an element of racial bias within policie departments. I just don't think it's on the scale many would like me to believe.

    "My brain's a good brain!"

  • If I'm reading this graph correctly... of 926 shootings so far this year:

    440 victims were white... I says 'pardon'?
    543 victims had a gun (149 had a knife)... potentially threats to the responding officers.
    Why the “pardon?” Does that surprise you given that whites make up 76% of the population?
    No, it doesn't surprise me. Let's be honest... the running MT narrative is that the nation's police force had gone rogue and is executing black people during encounters that go slightly awry.

    It's still slightly disproportionate (76% of the population accounting for roughly 55%  of the killings) don't exactly support the aforementioned belief set.

    That graph only tells a portion of the story. For example, link in all the other variables such as socioeconomics and how that relates to race... and how that lends itself to criminal activities.

    Don't get me wrong... I believe there is an element of racial bias within policie departments. I just don't think it's on the scale many would like me to believe.

    Do you think this would have happened had the perps been white?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/31/cleveland-car-chase-russell-williams-police-shooting
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN;

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  • CM189191CM189191 Minneapolis via Chicago Posts: 6,786
    mace1229 said:
    Good luck getting cops working gang infested LA with a billy club
    CM189191 said:

    We should follow England's example: the majority of police officers do not carry firearms; that duty is instead carried out by specially-trained firearms officers

    WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020 AT 07/07/2020

  • If I'm reading this graph correctly... of 926 shootings so far this year:

    440 victims were white... I says 'pardon'?
    543 victims had a gun (149 had a knife)... potentially threats to the responding officers.
    Why the “pardon?” Does that surprise you given that whites make up 76% of the population?
    No, it doesn't surprise me. Let's be honest... the running MT narrative is that the nation's police force had gone rogue and is executing black people during encounters that go slightly awry.

    It's still slightly disproportionate (76% of the population accounting for roughly 55%  of the killings) don't exactly support the aforementioned belief set.

    That graph only tells a portion of the story. For example, link in all the other variables such as socioeconomics and how that relates to race... and how that lends itself to criminal activities.

    Don't get me wrong... I believe there is an element of racial bias within policie departments. I just don't think it's on the scale many would like me to believe.

    I would argue that there is inherent bias throughout the criminal justice system, from policing, to arresting and charging, to jury selection and sentencing (rock versus powder cocaine). Check the YouTube video of the white guy walking down the street with a rifle slung over his shoulder and the cop's interaction when he rolls up versus the cop who rolls up on the black guy doing the same. Not a definitive study by any means but there are enough real life examples of how police respond to black perps versus white and statistics to bear out the inherent bias in the other aspects of the criminal justice system. I don't remember too many AMT posters posting the story from Cleveland and lamenting the brutality of the police. Your race makes a difference as to how your viewed and treated, by the police and posters on AMT.
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN;

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  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 8,956
    edited December 2017

    If I'm reading this graph correctly... of 926 shootings so far this year:

    440 victims were white... I says 'pardon'?
    543 victims had a gun (149 had a knife)... potentially threats to the responding officers.
    Why the “pardon?” Does that surprise you given that whites make up 76% of the population?
    No, it doesn't surprise me. Let's be honest... the running MT narrative is that the nation's police force had gone rogue and is executing black people during encounters that go slightly awry.

    It's still slightly disproportionate (76% of the population accounting for roughly 55%  of the killings) don't exactly support the aforementioned belief set.

    That graph only tells a portion of the story. For example, link in all the other variables such as socioeconomics and how that relates to race... and how that lends itself to criminal activities.

    Don't get me wrong... I believe there is an element of racial bias within policie departments. I just don't think it's on the scale many would like me to believe.

    Do you think this would have happened had the perps been white?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/31/cleveland-car-chase-russell-williams-police-shooting
    Probably. According to that article they tried to ram police. And the chase started because they thought they heard shots coming from the car, so they assumed they were armed. The fact that they not only fled when they tried to investigate, but also tried to kill police in the process only made them further believe they were armed and dangerous. 
    What was it about color that made them shoot in this case? A white dude tries to kill police he's likely to get shot too. Not to mention fleeing at speeds of 110 mph.
    Not every case of a black person who gets killed while trying to kill police is the result of racists cops.
    Post edited by mace1229 on
  • mace1229 said:

    If I'm reading this graph correctly... of 926 shootings so far this year:

    440 victims were white... I says 'pardon'?
    543 victims had a gun (149 had a knife)... potentially threats to the responding officers.
    Why the “pardon?” Does that surprise you given that whites make up 76% of the population?
    No, it doesn't surprise me. Let's be honest... the running MT narrative is that the nation's police force had gone rogue and is executing black people during encounters that go slightly awry.

    It's still slightly disproportionate (76% of the population accounting for roughly 55%  of the killings) don't exactly support the aforementioned belief set.

    That graph only tells a portion of the story. For example, link in all the other variables such as socioeconomics and how that relates to race... and how that lends itself to criminal activities.

    Don't get me wrong... I believe there is an element of racial bias within policie departments. I just don't think it's on the scale many would like me to believe.

    Do you think this would have happened had the perps been white?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/31/cleveland-car-chase-russell-williams-police-shooting
    Probably. According to that article they tried to ram police. And the chase started because they thought they heard shots coming from the car, so they assumed they were armed. The fact that they not only fled when they tried to investigate, but also tried to kill police in the process only made them further believe they were armed and dangerous. 
    What was it about color that made them shoot in this case? A white dude tries to kill police he's likely to get shot too.
    Is this your idea of 'restraint?" I highly doubt, had the perps been white, that 137 shots would have been fired, some from a cop standing on the hod of their car.
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN;

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  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    mace1229 said:

    If I'm reading this graph correctly... of 926 shootings so far this year:

    440 victims were white... I says 'pardon'?
    543 victims had a gun (149 had a knife)... potentially threats to the responding officers.
    Why the “pardon?” Does that surprise you given that whites make up 76% of the population?
    No, it doesn't surprise me. Let's be honest... the running MT narrative is that the nation's police force had gone rogue and is executing black people during encounters that go slightly awry.

    It's still slightly disproportionate (76% of the population accounting for roughly 55%  of the killings) don't exactly support the aforementioned belief set.

    That graph only tells a portion of the story. For example, link in all the other variables such as socioeconomics and how that relates to race... and how that lends itself to criminal activities.

    Don't get me wrong... I believe there is an element of racial bias within policie departments. I just don't think it's on the scale many would like me to believe.

    Do you think this would have happened had the perps been white?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/31/cleveland-car-chase-russell-williams-police-shooting
    Probably. According to that article they tried to ram police. And the chase started because they thought they heard shots coming from the car, so they assumed they were armed. The fact that they not only fled when they tried to investigate, but also tried to kill police in the process only made them further believe they were armed and dangerous. 
    What was it about color that made them shoot in this case? A white dude tries to kill police he's likely to get shot too. Not to mention fleeing at speeds of 110 mph.
    Not every case of a black person who gets killed while trying to kill police is the result of racists cops.
    "Tried to ram" is a trigger phrase used to justify force, it's often shown to be bullshit.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 8,956
    rgambs said:
    mace1229 said:

    If I'm reading this graph correctly... of 926 shootings so far this year:

    440 victims were white... I says 'pardon'?
    543 victims had a gun (149 had a knife)... potentially threats to the responding officers.
    Why the “pardon?” Does that surprise you given that whites make up 76% of the population?
    No, it doesn't surprise me. Let's be honest... the running MT narrative is that the nation's police force had gone rogue and is executing black people during encounters that go slightly awry.

    It's still slightly disproportionate (76% of the population accounting for roughly 55%  of the killings) don't exactly support the aforementioned belief set.

    That graph only tells a portion of the story. For example, link in all the other variables such as socioeconomics and how that relates to race... and how that lends itself to criminal activities.

    Don't get me wrong... I believe there is an element of racial bias within policie departments. I just don't think it's on the scale many would like me to believe.

    Do you think this would have happened had the perps been white?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/31/cleveland-car-chase-russell-williams-police-shooting
    Probably. According to that article they tried to ram police. And the chase started because they thought they heard shots coming from the car, so they assumed they were armed. The fact that they not only fled when they tried to investigate, but also tried to kill police in the process only made them further believe they were armed and dangerous. 
    What was it about color that made them shoot in this case? A white dude tries to kill police he's likely to get shot too. Not to mention fleeing at speeds of 110 mph.
    Not every case of a black person who gets killed while trying to kill police is the result of racists cops.
    "Tried to ram" is a trigger phrase used to justify force, it's often shown to be bullshit.
    Well when you flea at 110 mph, you lose all benefit of the doubt in my mind.
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 8,956
    edited December 2017
    mace1229 said:

    If I'm reading this graph correctly... of 926 shootings so far this year:

    440 victims were white... I says 'pardon'?
    543 victims had a gun (149 had a knife)... potentially threats to the responding officers.
    Why the “pardon?” Does that surprise you given that whites make up 76% of the population?
    No, it doesn't surprise me. Let's be honest... the running MT narrative is that the nation's police force had gone rogue and is executing black people during encounters that go slightly awry.

    It's still slightly disproportionate (76% of the population accounting for roughly 55%  of the killings) don't exactly support the aforementioned belief set.

    That graph only tells a portion of the story. For example, link in all the other variables such as socioeconomics and how that relates to race... and how that lends itself to criminal activities.

    Don't get me wrong... I believe there is an element of racial bias within policie departments. I just don't think it's on the scale many would like me to believe.

    Do you think this would have happened had the perps been white?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/31/cleveland-car-chase-russell-williams-police-shooting
    Probably. According to that article they tried to ram police. And the chase started because they thought they heard shots coming from the car, so they assumed they were armed. The fact that they not only fled when they tried to investigate, but also tried to kill police in the process only made them further believe they were armed and dangerous. 
    What was it about color that made them shoot in this case? A white dude tries to kill police he's likely to get shot too.
    Is this your idea of 'restraint?" I highly doubt, had the perps been white, that 137 shots would have been fired, some from a cop standing on the hod of their car.
    Post edited by mace1229 on

  • If I'm reading this graph correctly... of 926 shootings so far this year:

    440 victims were white... I says 'pardon'?
    543 victims had a gun (149 had a knife)... potentially threats to the responding officers.
    Why the “pardon?” Does that surprise you given that whites make up 76% of the population?
    No, it doesn't surprise me. Let's be honest... the running MT narrative is that the nation's police force had gone rogue and is executing black people during encounters that go slightly awry.

    It's still slightly disproportionate (76% of the population accounting for roughly 55%  of the killings) don't exactly support the aforementioned belief set.

    That graph only tells a portion of the story. For example, link in all the other variables such as socioeconomics and how that relates to race... and how that lends itself to criminal activities.

    Don't get me wrong... I believe there is an element of racial bias within policie departments. I just don't think it's on the scale many would like me to believe.

    I would argue that there is inherent bias throughout the criminal justice system, from policing, to arresting and charging, to jury selection and sentencing (rock versus powder cocaine). Check the YouTube video of the white guy walking down the street with a rifle slung over his shoulder and the cop's interaction when he rolls up versus the cop who rolls up on the black guy doing the same. Not a definitive study by any means but there are enough real life examples of how police respond to black perps versus white and statistics to bear out the inherent bias in the other aspects of the criminal justice system. I don't remember too many AMT posters posting the story from Cleveland and lamenting the brutality of the police. Your race makes a difference as to how your viewed and treated, by the police and posters on AMT.
    I'm not sure about 'posters on AMT' (outside of a very small few).

    I'd ask the question for you regarding the 'racist cop variety': are these cops inherently racist... or do they become racist as a result of doing their job?
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    mace1229 said:
    rgambs said:
    mace1229 said:

    If I'm reading this graph correctly... of 926 shootings so far this year:

    440 victims were white... I says 'pardon'?
    543 victims had a gun (149 had a knife)... potentially threats to the responding officers.
    Why the “pardon?” Does that surprise you given that whites make up 76% of the population?
    No, it doesn't surprise me. Let's be honest... the running MT narrative is that the nation's police force had gone rogue and is executing black people during encounters that go slightly awry.

    It's still slightly disproportionate (76% of the population accounting for roughly 55%  of the killings) don't exactly support the aforementioned belief set.

    That graph only tells a portion of the story. For example, link in all the other variables such as socioeconomics and how that relates to race... and how that lends itself to criminal activities.

    Don't get me wrong... I believe there is an element of racial bias within policie departments. I just don't think it's on the scale many would like me to believe.

    Do you think this would have happened had the perps been white?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/31/cleveland-car-chase-russell-williams-police-shooting
    Probably. According to that article they tried to ram police. And the chase started because they thought they heard shots coming from the car, so they assumed they were armed. The fact that they not only fled when they tried to investigate, but also tried to kill police in the process only made them further believe they were armed and dangerous. 
    What was it about color that made them shoot in this case? A white dude tries to kill police he's likely to get shot too. Not to mention fleeing at speeds of 110 mph.
    Not every case of a black person who gets killed while trying to kill police is the result of racists cops.
    "Tried to ram" is a trigger phrase used to justify force, it's often shown to be bullshit.
    Well when you flea at 110 mph, you lose all benefit of the doubt in my mind.
    And I'm sure you wouldn't flee when you did nothing wrong and you were being shot at.
    I'm sure you would sit tight and save that benefit of doubt for the cops trying to kill you for no reason.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:

    If I'm reading this graph correctly... of 926 shootings so far this year:

    440 victims were white... I says 'pardon'?
    543 victims had a gun (149 had a knife)... potentially threats to the responding officers.
    Why the “pardon?” Does that surprise you given that whites make up 76% of the population?
    No, it doesn't surprise me. Let's be honest... the running MT narrative is that the nation's police force had gone rogue and is executing black people during encounters that go slightly awry.

    It's still slightly disproportionate (76% of the population accounting for roughly 55%  of the killings) don't exactly support the aforementioned belief set.

    That graph only tells a portion of the story. For example, link in all the other variables such as socioeconomics and how that relates to race... and how that lends itself to criminal activities.

    Don't get me wrong... I believe there is an element of racial bias within policie departments. I just don't think it's on the scale many would like me to believe.

    Do you think this would have happened had the perps been white?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/31/cleveland-car-chase-russell-williams-police-shooting
    Probably. According to that article they tried to ram police. And the chase started because they thought they heard shots coming from the car, so they assumed they were armed. The fact that they not only fled when they tried to investigate, but also tried to kill police in the process only made them further believe they were armed and dangerous. 
    What was it about color that made them shoot in this case? A white dude tries to kill police he's likely to get shot too.
    Is this your idea of 'restraint?" I highly doubt, had the perps been white, that 137 shots would have been fired, some from a cop standing on the hod of their car.
    Not all 137 shots were fired from the hood, some were.
     
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN;

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