We all know Putin is obviously aiding the rebels and supporting them. But I think his ultimate goal is to let this "civil war" go on for a while and then he will "end" this civil war himself, making him look like some hero to Ukrainians. I think he wants Ukrainians to see that their government cannot handle anything there, therefore giving them a reason to join back to Russian. Him taking Crimea was just one step to gaining control of Ukraine.
I am probably wrong but it is clear he wants Ukraine back.
~Carter~
You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
or you can come to terms and realize
you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
makes much more sense to live in the present tense - Present Tense
Has anyone read anything outside the mainstream on this? There is a lot of fishy shit about this madness. No one in this thread has mentioned Russia's claims that they tracked Ukrainian jets following the plane until 3 minutes before they lost contact? Or the allegations that putin's plane was supposed to be flying that route within minutes of the crash? Or Russia's satellite maps showing a Ukraine surface-air missile system in the area on July 14, and gone on the 17? Or the alleged recording between separatists and Russian military regarding the crash that was circulated having a time signature which implies it was made BEFORE the crash (Dimi did mention some people thought it was fake...if so, whoever made it had foreknowledge). I don't know wtf happened, and I know you guys don't trust Putin (who would, he's a politician)....but think about it. Would it benefit Putin at all to have a hand in this? If he did provide the missiles and personnel to the separatists, with the intent of blaming Ukraine, he would be forced to do something about it...it is not in his interest to escalate tensions with Ukraine. Russian statements regarding their 'evidence' against Ukraine, while direct, have had reconciliatory overtones. Contrast that with west's opportunistic push to further isolate Russia, then consider our recent installation of a puppet government, and the way our media is singing in unison in pointing the finger at Putin....I'm gonna reserve judgement on this. We should also remember that the US shot down an Iranian plane not so long ago, before we go beating war drums and calling for more support for our sanctions against Russia. So fucked up to think that whomever is responsible for this had the intent of framing the other side. I don't see how this could not be categorized as a 'false flag'. Nearly 300 lives lost in the interest of some sick fuck's PR campaign. As if good old fashioned terrorism isn't enough any more.
Putin would have had investigators from Malaysia in there lickity split if his guys didn't fuck up.
It will be interesting if we ever hear from Igor Strelkov / Girkin (KGB separatist leader) ever again. He pretty much stuck his media foot up his babushka in the aftermath.
Has anyone read anything outside the mainstream on this? There is a lot of fishy shit about this madness. No one in this thread has mentioned Russia's claims that they tracked Ukrainian jets following the plane until 3 minutes before they lost contact? Or the allegations that putin's plane was supposed to be flying that route within minutes of the crash? Or Russia's satellite maps showing a Ukraine surface-air missile system in the area on July 14, and gone on the 17? Or the alleged recording between separatists and Russian military regarding the crash that was circulated having a time signature which implies it was made BEFORE the crash (Dimi did mention some people thought it was fake...if so, whoever made it had foreknowledge). I don't know wtf happened, and I know you guys don't trust Putin (who would, he's a politician)....but think about it. Would it benefit Putin at all to have a hand in this? If he did provide the missiles and personnel to the separatists, with the intent of blaming Ukraine, he would be forced to do something about it...it is not in his interest to escalate tensions with Ukraine. Russian statements regarding their 'evidence' against Ukraine, while direct, have had reconciliatory overtones. Contrast that with west's opportunistic push to further isolate Russia, then consider our recent installation of a puppet government, and the way our media is singing in unison in pointing the finger at Putin....I'm gonna reserve judgement on this. We should also remember that the US shot down an Iranian plane not so long ago, before we go beating war drums and calling for more support for our sanctions against Russia. So fucked up to think that whomever is responsible for this had the intent of framing the other side. I don't see how this could not be categorized as a 'false flag'. Nearly 300 lives lost in the interest of some sick fuck's PR campaign. As if good old fashioned terrorism isn't enough any more.
From the evidence I've seen so far it looks like it was an "accident" in that the "Ukrainian" separatists really did think they were shooting down a Ukrainian military plane. With military equipment provided most likely by Russia.
When they realized their mistake it was cover-up time.
That's the scenario that makes the most sense to me. Until more evidence comes out saying otherwise. But I can understand your lack of trust when it comes to the western media. They love a good bashing of Putin.
Has anyone read anything outside the mainstream on this? There is a lot of fishy shit about this madness. No one in this thread has mentioned Russia's claims that they tracked Ukrainian jets following the plane until 3 minutes before they lost contact? Or the allegations that putin's plane was supposed to be flying that route within minutes of the crash? Or Russia's satellite maps showing a Ukraine surface-air missile system in the area on July 14, and gone on the 17? Or the alleged recording between separatists and Russian military regarding the crash that was circulated having a time signature which implies it was made BEFORE the crash (Dimi did mention some people thought it was fake...if so, whoever made it had foreknowledge). I don't know wtf happened, and I know you guys don't trust Putin (who would, he's a politician)....but think about it. Would it benefit Putin at all to have a hand in this? If he did provide the missiles and personnel to the separatists, with the intent of blaming Ukraine, he would be forced to do something about it...it is not in his interest to escalate tensions with Ukraine. Russian statements regarding their 'evidence' against Ukraine, while direct, have had reconciliatory overtones. Contrast that with west's opportunistic push to further isolate Russia, then consider our recent installation of a puppet government, and the way our media is singing in unison in pointing the finger at Putin....I'm gonna reserve judgement on this. We should also remember that the US shot down an Iranian plane not so long ago, before we go beating war drums and calling for more support for our sanctions against Russia. So fucked up to think that whomever is responsible for this had the intent of framing the other side. I don't see how this could not be categorized as a 'false flag'. Nearly 300 lives lost in the interest of some sick fuck's PR campaign. As if good old fashioned terrorism isn't enough any more.
From the evidence I've seen so far it looks like it was an "accident" in that the "Ukrainian" separatists really did think they were shooting down a Ukrainian military plane. With military equipment provided most likely by Russia.
When they realized their mistake it was cover-up time.
That's the scenario that makes the most sense to me. Until more evidence comes out saying otherwise. But I can understand your lack of trust when it comes to the western media. They love a good bashing of Putin.
The fact that the crash was only a footnote in Russian media doesn't make him and his regime any less suspicious/bashable.
You can tell a man from what he has to say - Neil & Tim Finn
They love you so badly for sharing their sorrow, so pick up that guitar and go break a heart - Kris Kristofferson
I am probably wrong but it is clear he wants Ukraine back.
you are probably wrong. Ukraine is a poor country with no resourses. Im not a fan of Putin poilitics, but the last thing he needs now is control over Ukraine (and a new war)
Has anyone read anything outside the mainstream on this? There is a lot of fishy shit about this madness. No one in this thread has mentioned Russia's claims that they tracked Ukrainian jets following the plane until 3 minutes before they lost contact? Or the allegations that putin's plane was supposed to be flying that route within minutes of the crash? Or Russia's satellite maps showing a Ukraine surface-air missile system in the area on July 14, and gone on the 17? Or the alleged recording between separatists and Russian military regarding the crash that was circulated having a time signature which implies it was made BEFORE the crash (Dimi did mention some people thought it was fake...if so, whoever made it had foreknowledge). I don't know wtf happened, and I know you guys don't trust Putin (who would, he's a politician)....but think about it. Would it benefit Putin at all to have a hand in this? If he did provide the missiles and personnel to the separatists, with the intent of blaming Ukraine, he would be forced to do something about it...it is not in his interest to escalate tensions with Ukraine. Russian statements regarding their 'evidence' against Ukraine, while direct, have had reconciliatory overtones. Contrast that with west's opportunistic push to further isolate Russia, then consider our recent installation of a puppet government, and the way our media is singing in unison in pointing the finger at Putin....I'm gonna reserve judgement on this. We should also remember that the US shot down an Iranian plane not so long ago, before we go beating war drums and calling for more support for our sanctions against Russia. So fucked up to think that whomever is responsible for this had the intent of framing the other side. I don't see how this could not be categorized as a 'false flag'. Nearly 300 lives lost in the interest of some sick fuck's PR campaign. As if good old fashioned terrorism isn't enough any more.
Has anyone read anything outside the mainstream on this? There is a lot of fishy shit about this madness. No one in this thread has mentioned Russia's claims that they tracked Ukrainian jets following the plane until 3 minutes before they lost contact? Or the allegations that putin's plane was supposed to be flying that route within minutes of the crash? Or Russia's satellite maps showing a Ukraine surface-air missile system in the area on July 14, and gone on the 17? Or the alleged recording between separatists and Russian military regarding the crash that was circulated having a time signature which implies it was made BEFORE the crash (Dimi did mention some people thought it was fake...if so, whoever made it had foreknowledge). I don't know wtf happened, and I know you guys don't trust Putin (who would, he's a politician)....but think about it. Would it benefit Putin at all to have a hand in this? If he did provide the missiles and personnel to the separatists, with the intent of blaming Ukraine, he would be forced to do something about it...it is not in his interest to escalate tensions with Ukraine. Russian statements regarding their 'evidence' against Ukraine, while direct, have had reconciliatory overtones. Contrast that with west's opportunistic push to further isolate Russia, then consider our recent installation of a puppet government, and the way our media is singing in unison in pointing the finger at Putin....I'm gonna reserve judgement on this. We should also remember that the US shot down an Iranian plane not so long ago, before we go beating war drums and calling for more support for our sanctions against Russia. So fucked up to think that whomever is responsible for this had the intent of framing the other side. I don't see how this could not be categorized as a 'false flag'. Nearly 300 lives lost in the interest of some sick fuck's PR campaign. As if good old fashioned terrorism isn't enough any more.
From the evidence I've seen so far it looks like it was an "accident" in that the "Ukrainian" separatists really did think they were shooting down a Ukrainian military plane. With military equipment provided most likely by Russia.
When they realized their mistake it was cover-up time.
That's the scenario that makes the most sense to me. Until more evidence comes out saying otherwise. But I can understand your lack of trust when it comes to the western media. They love a good bashing of Putin.
The fact that the crash was only a footnote in Russian media doesn't make him and his regime any less suspicious/bashable.
Has anyone read anything outside the mainstream on this? There is a lot of fishy shit about this madness. No one in this thread has mentioned Russia's claims that they tracked Ukrainian jets following the plane until 3 minutes before they lost contact? Or the allegations that putin's plane was supposed to be flying that route within minutes of the crash? Or Russia's satellite maps showing a Ukraine surface-air missile system in the area on July 14, and gone on the 17? Or the alleged recording between separatists and Russian military regarding the crash that was circulated having a time signature which implies it was made BEFORE the crash (Dimi did mention some people thought it was fake...if so, whoever made it had foreknowledge). I don't know wtf happened, and I know you guys don't trust Putin (who would, he's a politician)....but think about it. Would it benefit Putin at all to have a hand in this? If he did provide the missiles and personnel to the separatists, with the intent of blaming Ukraine, he would be forced to do something about it...it is not in his interest to escalate tensions with Ukraine. Russian statements regarding their 'evidence' against Ukraine, while direct, have had reconciliatory overtones. Contrast that with west's opportunistic push to further isolate Russia, then consider our recent installation of a puppet government, and the way our media is singing in unison in pointing the finger at Putin....I'm gonna reserve judgement on this. We should also remember that the US shot down an Iranian plane not so long ago, before we go beating war drums and calling for more support for our sanctions against Russia. So fucked up to think that whomever is responsible for this had the intent of framing the other side. I don't see how this could not be categorized as a 'false flag'. Nearly 300 lives lost in the interest of some sick fuck's PR campaign. As if good old fashioned terrorism isn't enough any more.
From the evidence I've seen so far it looks like it was an "accident" in that the "Ukrainian" separatists really did think they were shooting down a Ukrainian military plane. With military equipment provided most likely by Russia.
When they realized their mistake it was cover-up time.
That's the scenario that makes the most sense to me. Until more evidence comes out saying otherwise. But I can understand your lack of trust when it comes to the western media. They love a good bashing of Putin.
The fact that the crash was only a footnote in Russian media doesn't make him and his regime any less suspicious/bashable.
Trying to figure out where I said that.
You said you could understand lack of trust when it came to western media because they love to bash Putin. My point was that he is actually continually playing into their hands. Why would such a tragedy not be properly reported if Russia didn't have anything to do with it? This way it does of course look suspicious and is reported as such internationally.
I agree on the theory that it was a mistake by the separatists; not that it makes anything better for those lost and their loved ones, but someone knowingly shooting down civilian aircraft would be an entirely different level of sickness.
Not a native English speaker btw, please let me know if I'm not making myself clear.
You can tell a man from what he has to say - Neil & Tim Finn
They love you so badly for sharing their sorrow, so pick up that guitar and go break a heart - Kris Kristofferson
Has anyone read anything outside the mainstream on this? There is a lot of fishy shit about this madness. No one in this thread has mentioned Russia's claims that they tracked Ukrainian jets following the plane until 3 minutes before they lost contact? Or the allegations that putin's plane was supposed to be flying that route within minutes of the crash? Or Russia's satellite maps showing a Ukraine surface-air missile system in the area on July 14, and gone on the 17? Or the alleged recording between separatists and Russian military regarding the crash that was circulated having a time signature which implies it was made BEFORE the crash (Dimi did mention some people thought it was fake...if so, whoever made it had foreknowledge). I don't know wtf happened, and I know you guys don't trust Putin (who would, he's a politician)....but think about it. Would it benefit Putin at all to have a hand in this? If he did provide the missiles and personnel to the separatists, with the intent of blaming Ukraine, he would be forced to do something about it...it is not in his interest to escalate tensions with Ukraine. Russian statements regarding their 'evidence' against Ukraine, while direct, have had reconciliatory overtones. Contrast that with west's opportunistic push to further isolate Russia, then consider our recent installation of a puppet government, and the way our media is singing in unison in pointing the finger at Putin....I'm gonna reserve judgement on this. We should also remember that the US shot down an Iranian plane not so long ago, before we go beating war drums and calling for more support for our sanctions against Russia. So fucked up to think that whomever is responsible for this had the intent of framing the other side. I don't see how this could not be categorized as a 'false flag'. Nearly 300 lives lost in the interest of some sick fuck's PR campaign. As if good old fashioned terrorism isn't enough any more.
From the evidence I've seen so far it looks like it was an "accident" in that the "Ukrainian" separatists really did think they were shooting down a Ukrainian military plane. With military equipment provided most likely by Russia.
When they realized their mistake it was cover-up time.
That's the scenario that makes the most sense to me. Until more evidence comes out saying otherwise. But I can understand your lack of trust when it comes to the western media. They love a good bashing of Putin.
The fact that the crash was only a footnote in Russian media doesn't make him and his regime any less suspicious/bashable.
Trying to figure out where I said that.
You said you could understand lack of trust when it came to western media because they love to bash Putin. My point was that he is actually continually playing into their hands. Why would such a tragedy not be properly reported if Russia didn't have anything to do with it? This way it does of course look suspicious and is reported as such internationally.
I agree on the theory that it was a mistake by the separatists; not that it makes anything better for those lost and their loved ones, but someone knowingly shooting down civilian aircraft would be an entirely different level of sickness.
Not a native English speaker btw, please let me know if I'm not making myself clear.
You explained yourself perfectly clear. Fantastic English. Thanks.
I agree with your point about Putin. I'm just having trouble trusting the western media right now given their coverage of world events. A lot of bias.
What evidence are people mentioning that points to Russian involvement? I ask honestly, I've been on a houseboat for four days, haven't seen any news other than what appears in my feeds, and I don't subscribe to any corporate outlets. I read that the video had a time signature prior to the crash. Also, the flight was diverted from it's normal route. Many many other planes flew that route that day, but the one that wasn't supposed to be there is the one that gets taken out? (edit I misinterpreted what I read yesterday. The flight corridor the plane and 100+ others flew was safe. The Malaysia Airlines flight was diverted to the war zone, the only plane told to do so). Jason - you mention Malaysian inspectors...from what I've read Putin has repeatedly called for an international investigation, and Ukraine has already tampered with flight tracking data...there are also the unaddressed accusations of fighter jets and Ukraine government missile systems mobile in the area.
There is so much more to the struggle in Ukraine than ukraine's own resources. It is THE corridor for Russian gas, a new EU partner, and a potential NATO candidate in Russia's back yard. A key part of the US 'pivot' to Asia. The behind the scenes struggles to bring Ukraine into the western fold and to control Russian gas has been going on for 20 years.
This article was written July 9th (before the crash). It relates the political maneuvering in Ukraine to the TAPI pipeline project the Afghanistan war was fought over. People need to pay more attention to trade when talking war. We all admit that corporations run our fucking government, but no one seems to want to expose the government/corporate (fascist) geo-political goals that are central to most conflicts.
In Ukraine, the US is using a divide and conquer strategy to pit the EU against trading partner Moscow. The State Department and CIA helped to topple Ukraine’s elected President Viktor Yanukovych and install a US stooge in Kiev who was ordered to cut off the flow of Russian gas to the EU and lure Putin into a protracted guerilla war in Ukraine. The bigwigs in Washington figured that, with some provocation, Putin would react the same way he did when Georgia invaded South Ossetia in 2006. But, so far, Putin has resisted the temptation to get involved which is why new puppet president Petro Poroshenko has gone all “Jackie Chan” and stepped up the provocations by pummeling east Ukraine mercilessly. It’s just a way of goading Putin into sending in the tanks.
But here’s the odd part: Washington doesn’t have a back-up plan. It’s obvious by the way Poroshenko keeps doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. That demonstrates that there’s no Plan B. Either Poroshenko lures Putin across the border and into the conflict, or the neocon plan falls apart, which it will if they can’t demonize Putin as a “dangerous aggressor” who can’t be trusted as a business partner.
So all Putin has to do is sit-tight and he wins, mainly because the EU needs Moscow’s gas. If energy supplies are terminated or drastically reduced, prices will rise, the EU will slide back into recession, and Washington will take the blame. So Washington has a very small window to draw Putin into the fray, which is why we should expect another false flag incident on a much larger scale than the fire in Odessa. Washington is going to have to do something really big and make it look like it was Moscow’s doing. Otherwise, their pivot plan is going to hit a brick wall.
I am probably wrong but it is clear he wants Ukraine back.
you are probably wrong. Ukraine is a poor country with no resourses. Im not a fan of Putin poilitics, but the last thing he needs now is control over Ukraine (and a new war)
It's not a resources thing. Russia was born in Ukraine. It's an ethnic thing.
~Carter~
You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
or you can come to terms and realize
you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
makes much more sense to live in the present tense - Present Tense
Just days after the tragic crash of a Malaysian Airlines flight over eastern Ukraine, Western politicians and media joined together to gain the maximum propaganda value from the disaster. It had to be Russia; it had to be Putin, they said. President Obama held a press conference to claim – even before an investigation – that it was pro-Russian rebels in the region who were responsible. His ambassador to the UN, Samantha Power, did the same at the UN Security Council – just one day after the crash!
While western media outlets rush to repeat government propaganda on the event, there are a few things they will not report.
They will not report that the crisis in Ukraine started late last year, when EU and US-supported protesters plotted the overthrow of the elected Ukrainian president, Viktor Yanukovych. Without US-sponsored “regime change,” it is unlikely that hundreds would have been killed in the unrest that followed. Nor would the Malaysian Airlines crash have happened.
The media has reported that the plane must have been shot down by Russian forces or Russian-backed separatists, because the missile that reportedly brought down the plane was Russian made. But they will not report that the Ukrainian government also uses the exact same Russian-made weapons.
They will not report that the post-coup government in Kiev has, according to OSCE monitors, killed 250 people in the breakaway Lugansk region since June, including 20 killed as government forces bombed the city center the day after the plane crash! Most of these are civilians and together they roughly equal the number killed in the plane crash. By contrast, Russia has killed no one in Ukraine, and the separatists have struck largely military, not civilian, targets.
They will not report that the US has strongly backed the Ukrainian government in these attacks on civilians, which a State Department spokeswoman called “measured and moderate.”
They will not report that neither Russia nor the separatists in eastern Ukraine have anything to gain but everything to lose by shooting down a passenger liner full of civilians.
They will not report that the Ukrainian government has much to gain by pinning the attack on Russia, and that the Ukrainian prime minister has already expressed his pleasure that Russia is being blamed for the attack.
They will not report that the missile that apparently shot down the plane was from a sophisticated surface-to-air missile system that requires a good deal of training that the separatists do not have.
They will not report that the separatists in eastern Ukraine have inflicted considerable losses on the Ukrainian government in the week before the plane was downed.
They will not report how similar this is to last summer’s US claim that the Assad government in Syria had used poison gas against civilians in Ghouta. Assad was also gaining the upper hand in his struggle with US-backed rebels and the US claimed that the attack came from Syrian government positions. Then, US claims led us to the brink of another war in the Middle East. At the last minute public opposition forced Obama to back down – and we have learned since then that US claims about the gas attack were false.
Of course it is entirely possible that the Obama administration and the US media has it right this time, and Russia or the separatists in eastern Ukraine either purposely or inadvertently shot down this aircraft. The real point is, it's very difficult to get accurate information so everybody engages in propaganda. At this point it would be unwise to say the Russians did it, the Ukrainian government did it, or the rebels did it. Is it so hard to simply demand a real investigation?
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
I also thought that people were jumping to conclusions because the very first reports... i.e. speculations... from our sad broadcast 'News' outlets was to suspect a shoulder fired weapon, similar to a Stinger missle. This was impossible because the plane outside of the operational scope of that type of weapon. It has to be a system capable of hitting an airliner at cruise altitude 32,000 to 37,000 feet. It HAD to be an anti-aircraft system fired from either a fixed or mobile position. Either of those types of weapon systems require a multiple personel crew with adequate training on use of the weapon. You or i cannot gather 6 of our friends and figure out how to operate the radar and targeting systems without someone teaching us how it all works. We may be able to figure out how to fire the thing... but, we would probably not hit anything... especially a 777 at cruise speed/altitude. So, that in mind... the prime suspect is a mobile system. The BUK Surface-to-Air Systems are made in Russia and used by their forces... but, it is also in possession of the Ukraine, too. The same way the Ukraine owns and operates Russian made tanks, helicopters and planes. What the news is showing us is a BUK SA System moving along a road with 2 missiles in the breach. It has not been confirmed by time or location. That footage could have been taken of and BUK system... anywhere and at any time. It is not proof of anything. I wish our News Outlets would go back to Journaliasm Class and learn to serve us truth and fact... not speculation and belief. ... So, either the Russian Seperatists or Russian Seperatists who were formerly in the Ukrainian Army, trained to operate the system fired a system they captured to defected from Ukrainian Forces... of it was fired from Russian Soldiers in support of Seperatists... or it was fired from Ukrainian Forces. We cannot tell by the marking to which force it belongs or belonged to. ... The thing is we do not know. But, from the actions of the Russian Seperatists, they tells us that they probably don't want the truth revealed. Of the 3 possible suspects... the Seperatists look like they are the ones that have something to hide. They may have honestly mistaken the Malasian Airliner as a Ukrainian Anatov Cargo plane. But even if it was, they will never own up to such a costly mistake. The truth is... we will probably never know the truth.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Okay. I think we have our answer now. And it would put Ukrainian pilots squarely to blame. http://youtu.be/aKKoKmUtQXE?t=1m7s at 1:07 when you are ready to hear the truth. Posted ONE MONTH BEFORE MH17 SHOT DOWN.
Did it happen again, and they finally WERE provoked? Or the missle was already off? Now you tell me. ???
Post edited by DriftingByTheStorm on
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
There were already rumors going around from the Russian side of this debacle claiming there were two fighters behind MH17. Alternative news has been trying to make sense of that. This video from not-NCIS-but-hot was published on JUNE18th. At 1:07 she tells a story of Ukrainian fighters hiding behind a passenger plane, diving, dropping bombs on a"seperatist" residential area then REHIDING behind the passenger plane again. That was a month prior. you don't think it happened again for the umpteenth time and a rocket was launched at the hiding fighter and missed?
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
Okay. I think we have our answer now. And it would put Ukrainian pilots squarely to blame. http://youtu.be/aKKoKmUtQXE?t=1m7s at 1:07 when you are ready to hear the truth. Posted ONE MONTH BEFORE MH17 SHOT DOWN.
Did it happen again, and they finally WERE provoked? Or the missle was already off? Now you tell me. ???
anyone still following this story? The secret service in the Ukraine are now saying the rebels were targetting a different passenger plane - a russian one - as a false flag meant to draw Russia in for military action against Ukraine....which was basically the claim being levelled against them (Ukraine's coup government). Not every day you see two opposing sides pointing fingers in a blame game over false flags. Bizzare shit. I'm guessing the media coverage of these claims is pretty much nil. As is the coverage of the investigation by OSCE monitors who found machine gun like holes in the fuselage. MSM in Malaysia has reported that the plane was shot down by an AIR to AIR missile, and finished off with machine gun fire....still no mention (that I've seen anyway) of the Ukraine fighter jets that were trailing the plane, nor of who ordered the plane to change flight paths.
Why won't the US release their satellite footage from the area, like Russia did?
International prosecutors investigating the downing of a Malaysian airliner two years ago have concluded it was shot down by a Russian-made missile fired from rebel-held territory in eastern Ukraine, victims' family members said on Wednesday.
2 years and how much money spent? They could have given me $50K and I could have solved this mystery over the weekend.
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Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,122
With all the lives lost someone or some country should have to pay for this tragedy.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Funny reading through this thread and seeing some of the same people from the Syria thread posting that it wasnt Russia, it wasnt Putin, the MSM was pushing a false narrative, and "alternative media" was on the case
Comments
We all know Putin is obviously aiding the rebels and supporting them. But I think his ultimate goal is to let this "civil war" go on for a while and then he will "end" this civil war himself, making him look like some hero to Ukrainians. I think he wants Ukrainians to see that their government cannot handle anything there, therefore giving them a reason to join back to Russian. Him taking Crimea was just one step to gaining control of Ukraine.
I am probably wrong but it is clear he wants Ukraine back.
You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
or you can come to terms and realize
you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
makes much more sense to live in the present tense - Present Tense
It will be interesting if we ever hear from Igor Strelkov / Girkin (KGB separatist leader) ever again. He pretty much stuck his media foot up his babushka in the aftermath.
When they realized their mistake it was cover-up time.
That's the scenario that makes the most sense to me. Until more evidence comes out saying otherwise. But I can understand your lack of trust when it comes to the western media. They love a good bashing of Putin.
They love you so badly for sharing their sorrow, so pick up that guitar and go break a heart - Kris Kristofferson
I agree on the theory that it was a mistake by the separatists; not that it makes anything better for those lost and their loved ones, but someone knowingly shooting down civilian aircraft would be an entirely different level of sickness.
Not a native English speaker btw, please let me know if I'm not making myself clear.
They love you so badly for sharing their sorrow, so pick up that guitar and go break a heart - Kris Kristofferson
I agree with your point about Putin. I'm just having trouble trusting the western media right now given their coverage of world events. A lot of bias.
Jason - you mention Malaysian inspectors...from what I've read Putin has repeatedly called for an international investigation, and Ukraine has already tampered with flight tracking data...there are also the unaddressed accusations of fighter jets and Ukraine government missile systems mobile in the area.
There is so much more to the struggle in Ukraine than ukraine's own resources. It is THE corridor for Russian gas, a new EU partner, and a potential NATO candidate in Russia's back yard. A key part of the US 'pivot' to Asia. The behind the scenes struggles to bring Ukraine into the western fold and to control Russian gas has been going on for 20 years.
Pushing Ukraine to the Brink
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/07/09/pushing-ukraine-to-the-brink/
In Ukraine, the US is using a divide and conquer strategy to pit the EU against trading partner Moscow. The State Department and CIA helped to topple Ukraine’s elected President Viktor Yanukovych and install a US stooge in Kiev who was ordered to cut off the flow of Russian gas to the EU and lure Putin into a protracted guerilla war in Ukraine. The bigwigs in Washington figured that, with some provocation, Putin would react the same way he did when Georgia invaded South Ossetia in 2006. But, so far, Putin has resisted the temptation to get involved which is why new puppet president Petro Poroshenko has gone all “Jackie Chan” and stepped up the provocations by pummeling east Ukraine mercilessly. It’s just a way of goading Putin into sending in the tanks.
But here’s the odd part: Washington doesn’t have a back-up plan. It’s obvious by the way Poroshenko keeps doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. That demonstrates that there’s no Plan B. Either Poroshenko lures Putin across the border and into the conflict, or the neocon plan falls apart, which it will if they can’t demonize Putin as a “dangerous aggressor” who can’t be trusted as a business partner.
So all Putin has to do is sit-tight and he wins, mainly because the EU needs Moscow’s gas. If energy supplies are terminated or drastically reduced, prices will rise, the EU will slide back into recession, and Washington will take the blame. So Washington has a very small window to draw Putin into the fray, which is why we should expect another false flag incident on a much larger scale than the fire in Odessa. Washington is going to have to do something really big and make it look like it was Moscow’s doing. Otherwise, their pivot plan is going to hit a brick wall.
You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
or you can come to terms and realize
you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
makes much more sense to live in the present tense - Present Tense
If I opened it now would you not understand?
Warzone + Civilian Aircraft + Poorly Trained People + Missile Launcher + Soviet Mentality = 300 Dead Civilians
Either of those types of weapon systems require a multiple personel crew with adequate training on use of the weapon. You or i cannot gather 6 of our friends and figure out how to operate the radar and targeting systems without someone teaching us how it all works. We may be able to figure out how to fire the thing... but, we would probably not hit anything... especially a 777 at cruise speed/altitude.
So, that in mind... the prime suspect is a mobile system. The BUK Surface-to-Air Systems are made in Russia and used by their forces... but, it is also in possession of the Ukraine, too. The same way the Ukraine owns and operates Russian made tanks, helicopters and planes.
What the news is showing us is a BUK SA System moving along a road with 2 missiles in the breach. It has not been confirmed by time or location. That footage could have been taken of and BUK system... anywhere and at any time. It is not proof of anything.
I wish our News Outlets would go back to Journaliasm Class and learn to serve us truth and fact... not speculation and belief.
...
So, either the Russian Seperatists or Russian Seperatists who were formerly in the Ukrainian Army, trained to operate the system fired a system they captured to defected from Ukrainian Forces... of it was fired from Russian Soldiers in support of Seperatists... or it was fired from Ukrainian Forces. We cannot tell by the marking to which force it belongs or belonged to.
...
The thing is we do not know. But, from the actions of the Russian Seperatists, they tells us that they probably don't want the truth revealed. Of the 3 possible suspects... the Seperatists look like they are the ones that have something to hide. They may have honestly mistaken the Malasian Airliner as a Ukrainian Anatov Cargo plane. But even if it was, they will never own up to such a costly mistake.
The truth is... we will probably never know the truth.
Hail, Hail!!!
at 1:07 when you are ready to hear the truth.
Posted ONE MONTH BEFORE MH17 SHOT DOWN.
Did it happen again, and they finally WERE provoked? Or the missle was already off?
Now you tell me.
???
If I opened it now would you not understand?
If I opened it now would you not understand?
The secret service in the Ukraine are now saying the rebels were targetting a different passenger plane - a russian one - as a false flag meant to draw Russia in for military action against Ukraine....which was basically the claim being levelled against them (Ukraine's coup government).
Not every day you see two opposing sides pointing fingers in a blame game over false flags. Bizzare shit. I'm guessing the media coverage of these claims is pretty much nil. As is the coverage of the investigation by OSCE monitors who found machine gun like holes in the fuselage. MSM in Malaysia has reported that the plane was shot down by an AIR to AIR missile, and finished off with machine gun fire....still no mention (that I've seen anyway) of the Ukraine fighter jets that were trailing the plane, nor of who ordered the plane to change flight paths.
Why won't the US release their satellite footage from the area, like Russia did?
businessinsider.com/international-investigation-finds-russian-backed-ukraine-rebels-shot-down-mh17-2016-9
To which I say ... "No shit, Sherlock"
2 years and how much money spent? They could have given me $50K and I could have solved this mystery over the weekend.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Missile That Downed MH17 Came From Russian Military, Investigators Say
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/05/24/613979423/investigators-say-missile-that-downed-mh17-came-from-russian-militaryhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airliner_shootdown_incidents
I guess commercial airliner takedown has happened more than I thought...
Wake up folks, Putin is fucking evil