Global warming

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  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 25,017
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    brianlux said:
    camsjam said:
    I didn't mean to imply that your beliefs were wrong...I believe that humans are messing up the natural order of the world at an astonishing pace. I was just saying it is unreal that there are those who deny climate change exists. 
    No worries, cams- sorry if I misunderstood!  :smile:  

    It really is amazing that there are deniers still.  I sometimes wonder if that's just a front because some people believe that if they say, "Yeah, climate is changing, the planet is warming," they think that somehow that makes them a traitor to their party or political philosophy.  That's hugely unfortunate and ironic as the climate situation knows no political boundaries.  I wish we could somehow leave left and right out of this one.  It's like saying, well, I can't support the idea of preventing mass starvation because the other party thought of it first.
    hey brian, has there been any research as to the possibility of not only halting human-caused climate change, but is there any way to reverse it in any way?
    I heard of several idea that help in small ways.  For example, we just had a new roof put on our house and the shingles, though they look like regular roof shingles and don't look reflective, apparently do reflect light with intent of helping reduce global warming.  Another roof related help is the trend in many cities to create roof gardens.

    Some of the global warming reversing schemes I've read about seem a bit far-fetched to me like sending up solar shields into space or building giant machines to "scrub" the air of carbon.  I don't see how the huge cost, the amount of resources needed and the added pollution from building these things would make them feasible.

    My own thought is these more outlandish ideas are just another way humans in general believe we are more capable of keeping the earth in check than nature is.  It makes more sense to me to keep working to lower human population and for all of us to learn to consume less, and follow the three r's: reduce, reuse, recycle.  I think if we lower our impact on the environment and reduce natural resource consumption, nature will do just find establishing balances the way it has for eons.
    As long as people want to continue clinging to capitalism as an economic structure, the population will have to keep growing, since capitalism only works when it has endless growth, and that's not possible without growing the population right along with it.
    Growing population as in worker bees or as in consumers or both?
    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 43,515
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    brianlux said:
    camsjam said:
    I didn't mean to imply that your beliefs were wrong...I believe that humans are messing up the natural order of the world at an astonishing pace. I was just saying it is unreal that there are those who deny climate change exists. 
    No worries, cams- sorry if I misunderstood!  :smile:  

    It really is amazing that there are deniers still.  I sometimes wonder if that's just a front because some people believe that if they say, "Yeah, climate is changing, the planet is warming," they think that somehow that makes them a traitor to their party or political philosophy.  That's hugely unfortunate and ironic as the climate situation knows no political boundaries.  I wish we could somehow leave left and right out of this one.  It's like saying, well, I can't support the idea of preventing mass starvation because the other party thought of it first.
    hey brian, has there been any research as to the possibility of not only halting human-caused climate change, but is there any way to reverse it in any way?
    I heard of several idea that help in small ways.  For example, we just had a new roof put on our house and the shingles, though they look like regular roof shingles and don't look reflective, apparently do reflect light with intent of helping reduce global warming.  Another roof related help is the trend in many cities to create roof gardens.

    Some of the global warming reversing schemes I've read about seem a bit far-fetched to me like sending up solar shields into space or building giant machines to "scrub" the air of carbon.  I don't see how the huge cost, the amount of resources needed and the added pollution from building these things would make them feasible.

    My own thought is these more outlandish ideas are just another way humans in general believe we are more capable of keeping the earth in check than nature is.  It makes more sense to me to keep working to lower human population and for all of us to learn to consume less, and follow the three r's: reduce, reuse, recycle.  I think if we lower our impact on the environment and reduce natural resource consumption, nature will do just find establishing balances the way it has for eons.
    As long as people want to continue clinging to capitalism as an economic structure, the population will have to keep growing, since capitalism only works when it has endless growth, and that's not possible without growing the population right along with it.
    Growing population as in worker bees or as in consumers or both?
    Still both (for now... when the next great depression comes because of a failure to enact a workable universal income system and after technology wipes out half the jobs, get back to me, lol), but the consumer is King of course.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 25,017
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    brianlux said:
    camsjam said:
    I didn't mean to imply that your beliefs were wrong...I believe that humans are messing up the natural order of the world at an astonishing pace. I was just saying it is unreal that there are those who deny climate change exists. 
    No worries, cams- sorry if I misunderstood!  :smile:  

    It really is amazing that there are deniers still.  I sometimes wonder if that's just a front because some people believe that if they say, "Yeah, climate is changing, the planet is warming," they think that somehow that makes them a traitor to their party or political philosophy.  That's hugely unfortunate and ironic as the climate situation knows no political boundaries.  I wish we could somehow leave left and right out of this one.  It's like saying, well, I can't support the idea of preventing mass starvation because the other party thought of it first.
    hey brian, has there been any research as to the possibility of not only halting human-caused climate change, but is there any way to reverse it in any way?
    I heard of several idea that help in small ways.  For example, we just had a new roof put on our house and the shingles, though they look like regular roof shingles and don't look reflective, apparently do reflect light with intent of helping reduce global warming.  Another roof related help is the trend in many cities to create roof gardens.

    Some of the global warming reversing schemes I've read about seem a bit far-fetched to me like sending up solar shields into space or building giant machines to "scrub" the air of carbon.  I don't see how the huge cost, the amount of resources needed and the added pollution from building these things would make them feasible.

    My own thought is these more outlandish ideas are just another way humans in general believe we are more capable of keeping the earth in check than nature is.  It makes more sense to me to keep working to lower human population and for all of us to learn to consume less, and follow the three r's: reduce, reuse, recycle.  I think if we lower our impact on the environment and reduce natural resource consumption, nature will do just find establishing balances the way it has for eons.
    As long as people want to continue clinging to capitalism as an economic structure, the population will have to keep growing, since capitalism only works when it has endless growth, and that's not possible without growing the population right along with it.
    Growing population as in worker bees or as in consumers or both?
    Still both (for now... when the next great depression comes because of a failure to enact a workable universal income system and after technology wipes out half the jobs, get back to me, lol), but the consumer is King of course.
    Yeah, I see what you mean.

    You know, I do have a feeling the next great depression will become a big thread topic here one day.  It just seems inevitable, doesn't it?
    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 2,684
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    brianlux said:
    camsjam said:
    I didn't mean to imply that your beliefs were wrong...I believe that humans are messing up the natural order of the world at an astonishing pace. I was just saying it is unreal that there are those who deny climate change exists. 
    No worries, cams- sorry if I misunderstood!  :smile:  

    It really is amazing that there are deniers still.  I sometimes wonder if that's just a front because some people believe that if they say, "Yeah, climate is changing, the planet is warming," they think that somehow that makes them a traitor to their party or political philosophy.  That's hugely unfortunate and ironic as the climate situation knows no political boundaries.  I wish we could somehow leave left and right out of this one.  It's like saying, well, I can't support the idea of preventing mass starvation because the other party thought of it first.
    hey brian, has there been any research as to the possibility of not only halting human-caused climate change, but is there any way to reverse it in any way?
    I heard of several idea that help in small ways.  For example, we just had a new roof put on our house and the shingles, though they look like regular roof shingles and don't look reflective, apparently do reflect light with intent of helping reduce global warming.  Another roof related help is the trend in many cities to create roof gardens.

    Some of the global warming reversing schemes I've read about seem a bit far-fetched to me like sending up solar shields into space or building giant machines to "scrub" the air of carbon.  I don't see how the huge cost, the amount of resources needed and the added pollution from building these things would make them feasible.

    My own thought is these more outlandish ideas are just another way humans in general believe we are more capable of keeping the earth in check than nature is.  It makes more sense to me to keep working to lower human population and for all of us to learn to consume less, and follow the three r's: reduce, reuse, recycle.  I think if we lower our impact on the environment and reduce natural resource consumption, nature will do just find establishing balances the way it has for eons.
    As long as people want to continue clinging to capitalism as an economic structure, the population will have to keep growing, since capitalism only works when it has endless growth, and that's not possible without growing the population right along with it.
    Growing population as in worker bees or as in consumers or both?
    Still both (for now... when the next great depression comes because of a failure to enact a workable universal income system and after technology wipes out half the jobs, get back to me, lol), but the consumer is King of course.
    Guaranteed Income intrigues me.  The only problem I see with it ever taking any real foothold is the government will face intense pressure from public sector unions.  With guaranteed income all those people working for various government agency that deal with the various social programs (CPP, OSA, Welfare, etc).
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 43,515
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    brianlux said:
    camsjam said:
    I didn't mean to imply that your beliefs were wrong...I believe that humans are messing up the natural order of the world at an astonishing pace. I was just saying it is unreal that there are those who deny climate change exists. 
    No worries, cams- sorry if I misunderstood!  :smile:  

    It really is amazing that there are deniers still.  I sometimes wonder if that's just a front because some people believe that if they say, "Yeah, climate is changing, the planet is warming," they think that somehow that makes them a traitor to their party or political philosophy.  That's hugely unfortunate and ironic as the climate situation knows no political boundaries.  I wish we could somehow leave left and right out of this one.  It's like saying, well, I can't support the idea of preventing mass starvation because the other party thought of it first.
    hey brian, has there been any research as to the possibility of not only halting human-caused climate change, but is there any way to reverse it in any way?
    I heard of several idea that help in small ways.  For example, we just had a new roof put on our house and the shingles, though they look like regular roof shingles and don't look reflective, apparently do reflect light with intent of helping reduce global warming.  Another roof related help is the trend in many cities to create roof gardens.

    Some of the global warming reversing schemes I've read about seem a bit far-fetched to me like sending up solar shields into space or building giant machines to "scrub" the air of carbon.  I don't see how the huge cost, the amount of resources needed and the added pollution from building these things would make them feasible.

    My own thought is these more outlandish ideas are just another way humans in general believe we are more capable of keeping the earth in check than nature is.  It makes more sense to me to keep working to lower human population and for all of us to learn to consume less, and follow the three r's: reduce, reuse, recycle.  I think if we lower our impact on the environment and reduce natural resource consumption, nature will do just find establishing balances the way it has for eons.
    As long as people want to continue clinging to capitalism as an economic structure, the population will have to keep growing, since capitalism only works when it has endless growth, and that's not possible without growing the population right along with it.
    Growing population as in worker bees or as in consumers or both?
    Still both (for now... when the next great depression comes because of a failure to enact a workable universal income system and after technology wipes out half the jobs, get back to me, lol), but the consumer is King of course.
    Yeah, I see what you mean.

    You know, I do have a feeling the next great depression will become a big thread topic here one day.  It just seems inevitable, doesn't it?
    Let's hope we can still afford an internet connection by then! ;)
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 25,017
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    brianlux said:
    camsjam said:
    I didn't mean to imply that your beliefs were wrong...I believe that humans are messing up the natural order of the world at an astonishing pace. I was just saying it is unreal that there are those who deny climate change exists. 
    No worries, cams- sorry if I misunderstood!  :smile:  

    It really is amazing that there are deniers still.  I sometimes wonder if that's just a front because some people believe that if they say, "Yeah, climate is changing, the planet is warming," they think that somehow that makes them a traitor to their party or political philosophy.  That's hugely unfortunate and ironic as the climate situation knows no political boundaries.  I wish we could somehow leave left and right out of this one.  It's like saying, well, I can't support the idea of preventing mass starvation because the other party thought of it first.
    hey brian, has there been any research as to the possibility of not only halting human-caused climate change, but is there any way to reverse it in any way?
    I heard of several idea that help in small ways.  For example, we just had a new roof put on our house and the shingles, though they look like regular roof shingles and don't look reflective, apparently do reflect light with intent of helping reduce global warming.  Another roof related help is the trend in many cities to create roof gardens.

    Some of the global warming reversing schemes I've read about seem a bit far-fetched to me like sending up solar shields into space or building giant machines to "scrub" the air of carbon.  I don't see how the huge cost, the amount of resources needed and the added pollution from building these things would make them feasible.

    My own thought is these more outlandish ideas are just another way humans in general believe we are more capable of keeping the earth in check than nature is.  It makes more sense to me to keep working to lower human population and for all of us to learn to consume less, and follow the three r's: reduce, reuse, recycle.  I think if we lower our impact on the environment and reduce natural resource consumption, nature will do just find establishing balances the way it has for eons.
    As long as people want to continue clinging to capitalism as an economic structure, the population will have to keep growing, since capitalism only works when it has endless growth, and that's not possible without growing the population right along with it.
    Growing population as in worker bees or as in consumers or both?
    Still both (for now... when the next great depression comes because of a failure to enact a workable universal income system and after technology wipes out half the jobs, get back to me, lol), but the consumer is King of course.
    Yeah, I see what you mean.

    You know, I do have a feeling the next great depression will become a big thread topic here one day.  It just seems inevitable, doesn't it?
    Let's hope we can still afford an internet connection by then! ;)
    Like everything else, it will be free when the commie pinko socialists take over.  :lol:
    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 15,629
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    brianlux said:
    camsjam said:
    I didn't mean to imply that your beliefs were wrong...I believe that humans are messing up the natural order of the world at an astonishing pace. I was just saying it is unreal that there are those who deny climate change exists. 
    No worries, cams- sorry if I misunderstood!  :smile:  

    It really is amazing that there are deniers still.  I sometimes wonder if that's just a front because some people believe that if they say, "Yeah, climate is changing, the planet is warming," they think that somehow that makes them a traitor to their party or political philosophy.  That's hugely unfortunate and ironic as the climate situation knows no political boundaries.  I wish we could somehow leave left and right out of this one.  It's like saying, well, I can't support the idea of preventing mass starvation because the other party thought of it first.
    hey brian, has there been any research as to the possibility of not only halting human-caused climate change, but is there any way to reverse it in any way?
    I heard of several idea that help in small ways.  For example, we just had a new roof put on our house and the shingles, though they look like regular roof shingles and don't look reflective, apparently do reflect light with intent of helping reduce global warming.  Another roof related help is the trend in many cities to create roof gardens.

    Some of the global warming reversing schemes I've read about seem a bit far-fetched to me like sending up solar shields into space or building giant machines to "scrub" the air of carbon.  I don't see how the huge cost, the amount of resources needed and the added pollution from building these things would make them feasible.

    My own thought is these more outlandish ideas are just another way humans in general believe we are more capable of keeping the earth in check than nature is.  It makes more sense to me to keep working to lower human population and for all of us to learn to consume less, and follow the three r's: reduce, reuse, recycle.  I think if we lower our impact on the environment and reduce natural resource consumption, nature will do just find establishing balances the way it has for eons.
    As long as people want to continue clinging to capitalism as an economic structure, the population will have to keep growing, since capitalism only works when it has endless growth, and that's not possible without growing the population right along with it.
    Growing population as in worker bees or as in consumers or both?
    Still both (for now... when the next great depression comes because of a failure to enact a workable universal income system and after technology wipes out half the jobs, get back to me, lol), but the consumer is King of course.
    Yeah, I see what you mean.

    You know, I do have a feeling the next great depression will become a big thread topic here one day.  It just seems inevitable, doesn't it?
    Let's hope we can still afford an internet connection by then! ;)
    Like everything else, it will be free when the commie pinko socialists take over.  :lol:
    we just got free wifi on some city busses in winnipeg. .Moscowpeg. 
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 25,017
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    brianlux said:
    camsjam said:
    I didn't mean to imply that your beliefs were wrong...I believe that humans are messing up the natural order of the world at an astonishing pace. I was just saying it is unreal that there are those who deny climate change exists. 
    No worries, cams- sorry if I misunderstood!  :smile:  

    It really is amazing that there are deniers still.  I sometimes wonder if that's just a front because some people believe that if they say, "Yeah, climate is changing, the planet is warming," they think that somehow that makes them a traitor to their party or political philosophy.  That's hugely unfortunate and ironic as the climate situation knows no political boundaries.  I wish we could somehow leave left and right out of this one.  It's like saying, well, I can't support the idea of preventing mass starvation because the other party thought of it first.
    hey brian, has there been any research as to the possibility of not only halting human-caused climate change, but is there any way to reverse it in any way?
    I heard of several idea that help in small ways.  For example, we just had a new roof put on our house and the shingles, though they look like regular roof shingles and don't look reflective, apparently do reflect light with intent of helping reduce global warming.  Another roof related help is the trend in many cities to create roof gardens.

    Some of the global warming reversing schemes I've read about seem a bit far-fetched to me like sending up solar shields into space or building giant machines to "scrub" the air of carbon.  I don't see how the huge cost, the amount of resources needed and the added pollution from building these things would make them feasible.

    My own thought is these more outlandish ideas are just another way humans in general believe we are more capable of keeping the earth in check than nature is.  It makes more sense to me to keep working to lower human population and for all of us to learn to consume less, and follow the three r's: reduce, reuse, recycle.  I think if we lower our impact on the environment and reduce natural resource consumption, nature will do just find establishing balances the way it has for eons.
    As long as people want to continue clinging to capitalism as an economic structure, the population will have to keep growing, since capitalism only works when it has endless growth, and that's not possible without growing the population right along with it.
    Growing population as in worker bees or as in consumers or both?
    Still both (for now... when the next great depression comes because of a failure to enact a workable universal income system and after technology wipes out half the jobs, get back to me, lol), but the consumer is King of course.
    Yeah, I see what you mean.

    You know, I do have a feeling the next great depression will become a big thread topic here one day.  It just seems inevitable, doesn't it?
    Let's hope we can still afford an internet connection by then! ;)
    Like everything else, it will be free when the commie pinko socialists take over.  :lol:
    we just got free wifi on some city busses in winnipeg. .Moscowpeg. 
    :lol:

    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 2,684
    Motor Mouth: Tesla layoffs another sign of impending doom

    http://driving.ca/cadillac/auto-news/news/motor-mouth-tesla-layoffs-another-sign-of-impending-doom

    What would happen to Tesla without the BS government incentives?
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 25,017
    Motor Mouth: Tesla layoffs another sign of impending doom

    http://driving.ca/cadillac/auto-news/news/motor-mouth-tesla-layoffs-another-sign-of-impending-doom

    What would happen to Tesla without the BS government incentives?
    "What should, however, rattle investors even more is the second part of that sentence in which Musk admits “profit is obviously not what motivates us.” Now, to the fanboys who idolize the ex-PayPal-er, “what drives us is our mission to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable, clean energy” might seem like the kind of idealism that should trump fiscal pragmatism, but for the investors that have funded Tesla lo these last 15 years, such disregard for their investments must seem just a tad cavalier."

    The writer of this article (more like an op ed) takes the typical capitalist viewpoint that without profit as the main motive, what's the point of doing it?  Well, umm, the point is that with a wrecked planet, driving becomes a moot point. 
    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 2,684
    brianlux said:
    Motor Mouth: Tesla layoffs another sign of impending doom

    http://driving.ca/cadillac/auto-news/news/motor-mouth-tesla-layoffs-another-sign-of-impending-doom

    What would happen to Tesla without the BS government incentives?
    "What should, however, rattle investors even more is the second part of that sentence in which Musk admits “profit is obviously not what motivates us.” Now, to the fanboys who idolize the ex-PayPal-er, “what drives us is our mission to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable, clean energy” might seem like the kind of idealism that should trump fiscal pragmatism, but for the investors that have funded Tesla lo these last 15 years, such disregard for their investments must seem just a tad cavalier."

    The writer of this article (more like an op ed) takes the typical capitalist viewpoint that without profit as the main motive, what's the point of doing it?  Well, umm, the point is that with a wrecked planet, driving becomes a moot point. 
    Well said Brian.  My problem is the company thrives off subsidies from taxpayers.  I am 100% opposed to tax dollars proping up business.  Everyone is becoming to dependent on government.  Believe it or not their was a time business thrived on their own and built communities and supported with their money.  
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 8,797
    brianlux said:
    Motor Mouth: Tesla layoffs another sign of impending doom

    http://driving.ca/cadillac/auto-news/news/motor-mouth-tesla-layoffs-another-sign-of-impending-doom

    What would happen to Tesla without the BS government incentives?
    "What should, however, rattle investors even more is the second part of that sentence in which Musk admits “profit is obviously not what motivates us.” Now, to the fanboys who idolize the ex-PayPal-er, “what drives us is our mission to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable, clean energy” might seem like the kind of idealism that should trump fiscal pragmatism, but for the investors that have funded Tesla lo these last 15 years, such disregard for their investments must seem just a tad cavalier."

    The writer of this article (more like an op ed) takes the typical capitalist viewpoint that without profit as the main motive, what's the point of doing it?  Well, umm, the point is that with a wrecked planet, driving becomes a moot point. 
    Agreed.

    I haven't followed the Tesla story very closely. Has Musk always been up front about the fact that profit isn't what he's most interested in (and I'm sure this is an "easy for him to say" situation, as he's already rich). If he's been clear on his aims then investors really have no argument. And for god's sake, I would hope that some people at least are investing in areas with the primary goal of improving the planet, not worsening it. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 25,017
    brianlux said:
    Motor Mouth: Tesla layoffs another sign of impending doom

    http://driving.ca/cadillac/auto-news/news/motor-mouth-tesla-layoffs-another-sign-of-impending-doom

    What would happen to Tesla without the BS government incentives?
    "What should, however, rattle investors even more is the second part of that sentence in which Musk admits “profit is obviously not what motivates us.” Now, to the fanboys who idolize the ex-PayPal-er, “what drives us is our mission to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable, clean energy” might seem like the kind of idealism that should trump fiscal pragmatism, but for the investors that have funded Tesla lo these last 15 years, such disregard for their investments must seem just a tad cavalier."

    The writer of this article (more like an op ed) takes the typical capitalist viewpoint that without profit as the main motive, what's the point of doing it?  Well, umm, the point is that with a wrecked planet, driving becomes a moot point. 
    Agreed.

    I haven't followed the Tesla story very closely. Has Musk always been up front about the fact that profit isn't what he's most interested in (and I'm sure this is an "easy for him to say" situation, as he's already rich). If he's been clear on his aims then investors really have no argument. And for god's sake, I would hope that some people at least are investing in areas with the primary goal of improving the planet, not worsening it. 
    I agree.  We don't have a lot of money to invest but we so have a little money in Green Century Funds. 

    brianlux said:
    Motor Mouth: Tesla layoffs another sign of impending doom

    http://driving.ca/cadillac/auto-news/news/motor-mouth-tesla-layoffs-another-sign-of-impending-doom

    What would happen to Tesla without the BS government incentives?
    "What should, however, rattle investors even more is the second part of that sentence in which Musk admits “profit is obviously not what motivates us.” Now, to the fanboys who idolize the ex-PayPal-er, “what drives us is our mission to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable, clean energy” might seem like the kind of idealism that should trump fiscal pragmatism, but for the investors that have funded Tesla lo these last 15 years, such disregard for their investments must seem just a tad cavalier."

    The writer of this article (more like an op ed) takes the typical capitalist viewpoint that without profit as the main motive, what's the point of doing it?  Well, umm, the point is that with a wrecked planet, driving becomes a moot point. 
    Well said Brian.  My problem is the company thrives off subsidies from taxpayers.  I am 100% opposed to tax dollars proping up business.  Everyone is becoming to dependent on government.  Believe it or not their was a time business thrived on their own and built communities and supported with their money.  
    I somewhat agree, Meltdown, though I'm WAY more concerned with subsidies for big agra business and big pharma and such than for subsidies for electric cars.

    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 11,377
    brianlux said:
    Motor Mouth: Tesla layoffs another sign of impending doom

    http://driving.ca/cadillac/auto-news/news/motor-mouth-tesla-layoffs-another-sign-of-impending-doom

    What would happen to Tesla without the BS government incentives?
    "What should, however, rattle investors even more is the second part of that sentence in which Musk admits “profit is obviously not what motivates us.” Now, to the fanboys who idolize the ex-PayPal-er, “what drives us is our mission to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable, clean energy” might seem like the kind of idealism that should trump fiscal pragmatism, but for the investors that have funded Tesla lo these last 15 years, such disregard for their investments must seem just a tad cavalier."

    The writer of this article (more like an op ed) takes the typical capitalist viewpoint that without profit as the main motive, what's the point of doing it?  Well, umm, the point is that with a wrecked planet, driving becomes a moot point. 
    Well said Brian.  My problem is the company thrives off subsidies from taxpayers.  I am 100% opposed to tax dollars proping up business.  Everyone is becoming to dependent on government.  Believe it or not their was a time business thrived on their own and built communities and supported with their money.  
    His company thrives on subsidies no moreso than any fossil fuel company.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 2,684
    rgambs said:
    brianlux said:
    Motor Mouth: Tesla layoffs another sign of impending doom

    http://driving.ca/cadillac/auto-news/news/motor-mouth-tesla-layoffs-another-sign-of-impending-doom

    What would happen to Tesla without the BS government incentives?
    "What should, however, rattle investors even more is the second part of that sentence in which Musk admits “profit is obviously not what motivates us.” Now, to the fanboys who idolize the ex-PayPal-er, “what drives us is our mission to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable, clean energy” might seem like the kind of idealism that should trump fiscal pragmatism, but for the investors that have funded Tesla lo these last 15 years, such disregard for their investments must seem just a tad cavalier."

    The writer of this article (more like an op ed) takes the typical capitalist viewpoint that without profit as the main motive, what's the point of doing it?  Well, umm, the point is that with a wrecked planet, driving becomes a moot point. 
    Well said Brian.  My problem is the company thrives off subsidies from taxpayers.  I am 100% opposed to tax dollars proping up business.  Everyone is becoming to dependent on government.  Believe it or not their was a time business thrived on their own and built communities and supported with their money.  
    His company thrives on subsidies no moreso than any fossil fuel company.
    Do you even fucking read.  I stated I am opposed to all government subsidies to ANY fucking business.  Not hard to hard to understand.
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 11,377
    edited June 16
    rgambs said:
    brianlux said:
    Motor Mouth: Tesla layoffs another sign of impending doom

    http://driving.ca/cadillac/auto-news/news/motor-mouth-tesla-layoffs-another-sign-of-impending-doom

    What would happen to Tesla without the BS government incentives?
    "What should, however, rattle investors even more is the second part of that sentence in which Musk admits “profit is obviously not what motivates us.” Now, to the fanboys who idolize the ex-PayPal-er, “what drives us is our mission to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable, clean energy” might seem like the kind of idealism that should trump fiscal pragmatism, but for the investors that have funded Tesla lo these last 15 years, such disregard for their investments must seem just a tad cavalier."

    The writer of this article (more like an op ed) takes the typical capitalist viewpoint that without profit as the main motive, what's the point of doing it?  Well, umm, the point is that with a wrecked planet, driving becomes a moot point. 
    Well said Brian.  My problem is the company thrives off subsidies from taxpayers.  I am 100% opposed to tax dollars proping up business.  Everyone is becoming to dependent on government.  Believe it or not their was a time business thrived on their own and built communities and supported with their money.  
    His company thrives on subsidies no moreso than any fossil fuel company.
    Do you even fucking read.  I stated I am opposed to all government subsidies to ANY fucking business.  Not hard to hard to understand.
    I do have trouble discerning people's intended meanings to the things they say when the grammar is poor.  Makes it hard to hard to understand.

    Energy subsidies go all the way back to 1789 in America bud.  There never was a time or place when businesses thrived on their own with the community without protection, arbitration, and financial support from government.
     That's a neoconservative fantasy.

    Post edited by rgambs on
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 25,017
    Jesus H!  This place gets might rough sometimes!  :lol:
    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 11,377
    I agree with you Brian, the made for TV solutions to carbon emissions and runaway warming are not going to save us, only fundamental civilization change will do it.
    So it won't get done lol
    Not funny though, because I think we are on a runaway train headed down a mountain and there's no stopping.  We can only hope to crash and die before we destroy the planet for our species.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 25,017
    rgambs said:
    I agree with you Brian, the made for TV solutions to carbon emissions and runaway warming are not going to save us, only fundamental civilization change will do it.
    So it won't get done lol
    Not funny though, because I think we are on a runaway train headed down a mountain and there's no stopping.  We can only hope to crash and die before we destroy the planet for our species.
    Yeah, sad but true.  I think the best we can hope for is a diminished crash and enough survivors for a viable species.  I'm actually oprimistic that way.
    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 11,377
    brianlux said:
    rgambs said:
    I agree with you Brian, the made for TV solutions to carbon emissions and runaway warming are not going to save us, only fundamental civilization change will do it.
    So it won't get done lol
    Not funny though, because I think we are on a runaway train headed down a mountain and there's no stopping.  We can only hope to crash and die before we destroy the planet for our species.
    Yeah, sad but true.  I think the best we can hope for is a diminished crash and enough survivors for a viable species.  I'm actually oprimistic that way.
    Yeah, humans are pretty smart, if we don't nuke the planet to toast I think humanity will continue for a few million more years in some form or another.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 25,017
    It seems as though we are all (or mostly all) in agreement these day about global warming being real and the majority of people now accept the notion that it is mainly caused by humans. 

    One of the things that gives me this impression is that we really don't see it discussed as much.  It's such a huge problem, I think we all tend to want to push it out of our psyche.  That's understandable, but I also even more find it useful to keep this situation in mind and to work on it.

    I'm reminded of all this having recently read this quote by mountaineer extraordinaire Conrak Anker who has seen much of the work including all of the major glacial parts of the world:

    "If you compare Everest photographs in 1953 with its current state, things are melting. I imagine if I were a golfer in Indiana, I'd be hard-pressed to believe in climate change because nothing's going on there. But when you're up in the mountains and seeing the glaciers melt away, it's an obvious physical manifestation of a warming planet."
    -Conrad Anker
    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 25,017
    As we all know by now, local weather and global climate are two different things and we cannot make a claim regarding global warming based on a particular instance of local weather.  But might not enough of those instances at least give us reason to suspect something is afoot on a bigger scale?  For example, all the wild fires in western North America, the record breaking heat wave in Europe and now this- fires raging within the arctic circle:


    STOCKHOLM — As Europe grapples with near-record temperatures and sustained drought, Sweden has become the latest nation to confront a wave of wildfires as far north as the Arctic Circle, prompting the authorities to evacuate some villages and to appeal for help from neighboring Norway and distant Italy.

    There were no immediate reports of any deaths or injuries, but the intensity of the fires and the extreme weather conditions earlier in the year have prompted anguished debate among some Swedes who have described the conflagrations in apocalyptic terms and linked them to global warming.

    “It’s very, very dry in most of Sweden,” Jonas Olsson, a hydrologist at the Swedish Meteorological and Hydrological Institute, said on Thursday. “The flows in the rivers and lakes are exceptionally low, except in the very northern part of the country. We have water shortages.”

    Rainfall was only around a seventh of the normal amount — the lowest since record-keeping began in the late 19th century, he said.




    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 25,017
    Sorry this is a double post but I think the article it refers to makes a good point about how we can still do something.  We just need to get moving on it:

    Here's an article posted just yesterday (10.31.18) that talks about what can be done to regarding climate change:


    The article's last paragraph is almost overly simplified considering the science content within it:

    While we will presumably have to contend with many more summers like 2018 in the future, we could likely prevent any further increase in persistent summer weather extremes. In other words, the future is still very much in our hands when it comes to dangerous and damaging summer weather extremes. It’s simply a matter of our willpower to transition quickly from fossil fuels to renewable energy.


    - but it still makes an optimistic point that hinges strongly on a the will to act.  That, of course, may be difficult but maybe if enough of us get the word out that something can be done, and fewer of us resign to doom, well, who knows.  Wonders happen.

    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 25,017
    Ultimate denial:

    'It's a ghost page': EPA site's climate change section may be gone for good


    More than a year after the US Environmental Protection Agency took down information on climate change from its website for an “update”, it now seems uncertain whether it will ever reappear.

    In April last year, the EPA replaced its online climate change section with a holding page that said the content was being updated to “reflect the agency’s new direction under President Donald Trump”.

    Information previously found at epa.gov/climatechange made it clear that human activity was warming the planet, resulting in harm to Americans’ health as well as crucial ecosystems on which humans depend.

    The “update” page has now given way to a page that simply states: “We want to help you find what you are looking for.” Below, there are links to search other areas of the EPA website, as well as to an archived “snapshot” of the site from the day before Trump became president in January 2017. The switch was observed by the Environmental Data & Governance Initiative, which tracks changes in government websites.

    “It’s an embarrassment. It is a ghost page,” said Judith Enck, who was EPA regional administrator during Barack Obama’s presidency. “It’s a bit like Amazon not allowing the public to order books via its website – it’s that fundamental. There’s no other issue at the EPA more important than climate change; it affects air, water, health and whether large parts of the world will survive.”




    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, ColoradoPosts: 5,546
    brianlux said:
    Ultimate denial:

    'It's a ghost page': EPA site's climate change section may be gone for good


    More than a year after the US Environmental Protection Agency took down information on climate change from its website for an “update”, it now seems uncertain whether it will ever reappear.

    In April last year, the EPA replaced its online climate change section with a holding page that said the content was being updated to “reflect the agency’s new direction under President Donald Trump”.

    Information previously found at epa.gov/climatechange made it clear that human activity was warming the planet, resulting in harm to Americans’ health as well as crucial ecosystems on which humans depend.

    The “update” page has now given way to a page that simply states: “We want to help you find what you are looking for.” Below, there are links to search other areas of the EPA website, as well as to an archived “snapshot” of the site from the day before Trump became president in January 2017. The switch was observed by the Environmental Data & Governance Initiative, which tracks changes in government websites.

    “It’s an embarrassment. It is a ghost page,” said Judith Enck, who was EPA regional administrator during Barack Obama’s presidency. “It’s a bit like Amazon not allowing the public to order books via its website – it’s that fundamental. There’s no other issue at the EPA more important than climate change; it affects air, water, health and whether large parts of the world will survive.”




    Ignorant jackasses
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 2,684
    Considering who the head EPA is, this should not be a surprise.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 25,017
    Considering who the head EPA is, this should not be a surprise.
    Agreed.  No surprise at all.  Pathetic that this is happening.  Those in power who would do this have to be some of the most short-sighted, greedy and selfish people on the face of the earth.
    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 2,684
    brianlux said:
    Considering who the head EPA is, this should not be a surprise.
    Agreed.  No surprise at all.  Pathetic that this is happening.  Those in power who would do this have to be some of the most short-sighted, greedy and selfish people on the face of the earth.
    Greedy...
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 11,377
    Woohoo!  Just donated to the Honnold Foundation (fights impacts of climate change) for a chance to climb at Yosemite with Alex Honnold!
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, ColoradoPosts: 5,546
    rgambs said:
    Woohoo!  Just donated to the Honnold Foundation (fights impacts of climate change) for a chance to climb at Yosemite with Alex Honnold!
    I climbed next to him once at my climbing gym.
    Once I realized who it was I just sat and watched.

    Good luck
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