Bad Union Contracts will kill the unions

Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 8,859
edited January 1 in A Moving Train
I am a union officer and I can tell you that this story is pretty much spot on,the union's need to re-think their contracts or they may loose them all together.

Godfather.

Defending workers’ rights is a noble mission. But sometimes labor unions take it too far. Here are some of our favorite examples of labor union contracts “gone wild.”

1) Three strikes and you’re still not out.

Believe it or not, an overly generous clause slipped into the teacher Master Agreement in 1997, basically states that Bay City School Teachers (Michigan) can be caught drunk at work up to five times before they get sacked.

In Florida, a teacher who showed up to class plastered and then started “dirty dancing” with her students may end up teaching again, thanks to her union’s excellent negotiating skills.

Bay City School teachers (again in Michigan) managed to negotiate a union contract where they could be caught in possession of, or under the influence of, drugs three times before they lost their job.

2). No shows at work

Dozens of Miami-Dade County employees often don’t bother to show up for work, and instead, opt to spend their time working as union reps, on the taxpayers’ dime. County Commissioner Esteban Bovo told Florida Watchdog this is costing taxpayers anywhere from $12 million to $24 million annually.

Click for more from Watchdog.org
Post edited by Unknown User on
it dosen't matter to me what a man dose for a living you understand..
as long as his interest's don't conflict with mine.
«13

Comments

  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 7,340
    Bad union contracts here in Canada with the automakers has lead to quite a few reductions in jobs.

    Personally I am in a union, and was a supporter of unions and even stated that in a thread on here. But I was recently passed over for a better job with better pay by someone who only has 3 years seniority, who has been in constant trouble since being hired, he got the job because his mommy is a friend of the stupidvisor, but there a clause that was put into the contract that allowed this to happen, but apparently no clause exist that protects the deserving workers and punishes the trouble makers. I have talked to people at other unions and have been told that these are issues at there places as well. I have 18 years, never been in trouble once, spotless record, hardly ever off sick and do everything by the book, so being a stand up worker who does his job well whether you have a union or not doesn't pay dividends anymore. My union has allowed the employer to put so many clauses in the contract that allow for favouritism, so it now makes me wonder what favours the union executive have gotten in return.

    End of long rant ... I am now firmly in support of right to work laws.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • Necessary evils.

    Unions are wrought with problems: in short... they lower the bar by not recognizing strong efforts and supporting weaker efforts. This doesn't exactly motivate the bottom end of the unionized work force and can result in uninspired efforts by harder working employees.

    Without them though... yikes.

    The only reason private companies pay reasonably close to union wages is because union wages set the standard. Don't think for a second that capitalism unchecked would be advantageous to the common man that comprises over 99% of the population.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 7,340
    Thirty Bills Unpaid" said:
    Necessary evils.

    Unions are wrought with problems: in short... they lower the bar by not recognizing strong efforts and supporting weaker efforts. This doesn't exactly motivate the bottom end of the unionized work force and can result in uninspired efforts by harder working employees.

    Without them though... yikes.

    The only reason private companies pay reasonably close to union wages is because union wages set the standard. Don't think for a second that capitalism unchecked would be advantageous to the common man that comprises over 99% of the population.
    What your saying is probably true, nonetheless I got burned big time, I believe within a few years Ontario will be a right to work province and when the union comes to ask me to sign a paper asking for me to pay union they'll be told to "kiss my ass".
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 8,859
    lukin2006" said:
    [quote="Thirty Bills Unpaid"]Necessary evils.

    Unions are wrought with problems: in short... they lower the bar by not recognizing strong efforts and supporting weaker efforts. This doesn't exactly motivate the bottom end of the unionized work force and can result in uninspired efforts by harder working employees.

    Without them though... yikes.

    The only reason private companies pay reasonably close to union wages is because union wages set the standard. Don't think for a second that capitalism unchecked would be advantageous to the common man that comprises over 99% of the population.
    What your saying is probably true, nonetheless I got burned big time, I believe within a few years Ontario will be a right to work province and when the union comes to ask me to sign a paper asking for me to pay union they'll be told to "kiss my ass".[/quote]

    so you're part of the auto workers union ? I believe we are part of the same union I am with the machinest union
    "international areospace machinest" and believe me I know about the back door deals that are made in fact I have been shafted in about the same way you have and that's why I ran for an officers position.

    I talk to management here and the complaints are always the same "your union protects the lazy and usless" our company has tried several times to fire trouble makers and lazy asses but got blocked by some bullshit in our contract, if the unions don't stop the with take take take and take responsibality for their people we will loose the companys that sign union contracts,Ive seen it happen before in the operating engineers when I was crane oiler/operator, it only takes a company to say we are no longer singing a union contract and one year from this day of contract nagosiations we will be non union,they will pay the workers agreed upon monies and rehire or hire new workers at less money (usally just a little more than the other non union shops in an effort to keep the good hands.

    Godfather.
    it dosen't matter to me what a man dose for a living you understand..
    as long as his interest's don't conflict with mine.
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 7,340
    Godfather." said:
    [quote="lukin2006"][quote="Thirty Bills Unpaid"]Necessary evils.

    Unions are wrought with problems: in short... they lower the bar by not recognizing strong efforts and supporting weaker efforts. This doesn't exactly motivate the bottom end of the unionized work force and can result in uninspired efforts by harder working employees.

    Without them though... yikes.

    The only reason private companies pay reasonably close to union wages is because union wages set the standard. Don't think for a second that capitalism unchecked would be advantageous to the common man that comprises over 99% of the population.
    What your saying is probably true, nonetheless I got burned big time, I believe within a few years Ontario will be a right to work province and when the union comes to ask me to sign a paper asking for me to pay union they'll be told to "kiss my ass".[/quote]

    so you're part of the auto workers union ? I believe we are part of the same union I am with the machinest union
    "international areospace machinest" and believe me I know about the back door deals that are made in fact I have been shafted in about the same way you have and that's why I ran for an officers position.

    I talk to management here and the complaints are always the same "your union protects the lazy and usless" our company has tried several times to fire trouble makers and lazy asses but got blocked by some bullshit in our contract, if the unions don't stop the with take take take and take responsibality for their people we will loose the companys that sign union contracts,Ive seen it happen before in the operating engineers when I was crane oiler/operator, it only takes a company to say we are no longer singing a union contract and one year from this day of contract nagosiations we will be non union,they will pay the workers agreed upon monies and rehire or hire new workers at less money (usally just a little more than the other non union shops in an effort to keep the good hands.

    Godfather.[/quote]

    No I'm not in the auto workers, I was commenting on the fact we've lost so many auto jobs partly because of their contracts.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,235
    Unions had a good purpose at one time.

    The only thing they do now is rush companies to move jobs where there aren't unions.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 8,859
    know1" said:
    Unions had a good purpose at one time.

    The only thing they do now is rush companies to move jobs where there aren't unions.
    that's because the unions have been asking for and getting stupid shit in their contracts and if they don't wise up and give a little back they will loose the battle,it's just a matter of time and for some it may be too late.


    Godfather.
    it dosen't matter to me what a man dose for a living you understand..
    as long as his interest's don't conflict with mine.
  • know1" said:
    Unions had a good purpose at one time.

    The only thing they do now is rush companies to move jobs where there aren't unions.
    You mean to sweat shops in 3rd world countries. Correct?

    If the government slapped import tariffs and taxed the hell out of product moving into the US that prevented this 'end run' (that your favourite presidential candidate in the last election practices by the way)... companies would be forced to do their business in the homeland, offer respectable working conditions, and still turn a handsome profit.

    What do you think would happen if some nutbar declared, "No unions. It's now business left unchecked!"?
    Meaning: no regulations with regards to the treatment of employees and business practices and the environment.

    I predict blood in the streets.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid" said:

    What do you think would happen if some nutbar declared, "No unions. It's now business left unchecked!"?
    Meaning: no regulations with regards to the treatment of employees and business practices and the environment.

    I predict blood in the streets.
    I know it is Wikipedia, but it says that 11% of the jobs in the U.S. are union jobs. I don't see the blood in the street for the other 89% of workers.
    First Show: Chicago 1998
    Last Show: Leeds 2014
    Next Show: Cinci 2014
  • bootlegger10" said:
    [quote="Thirty Bills Unpaid"]
    What do you think would happen if some nutbar declared, "No unions. It's now business left unchecked!"?
    Meaning: no regulations with regards to the treatment of employees and business practices and the environment.

    I predict blood in the streets.
    I know it is Wikipedia, but it says that 11% of the jobs in the U.S. are union jobs. I don't see the blood in the street for the other 89% of workers.[/quote]

    A little melodramatic for sure, but I offer the following to chew on:

    Wiki says, The US Census declared that in 2010 15.1% of the general population lived in poverty. Obviously these people do not have union jobs.

    Further, it is fair to suggest that many jobs in the private industry have jobs in unionized industry. These similar jobs have similar wages set by the bar established through the work of unions. With no standard, I would assert that the wages and working conditions for both jobs would fall.

    The scenario I painted alluded to stripping down worker's rights and standards for protecting the environment. In such a scenario where people and the planet are left to the good will of companies, exploitation of both would result. In other countries, where this has occurred, we have witnessed massive mobilization and resistance. It's not completely far fetched to think protests are out of the realm of possibilities given aggressive reforms in support of capitalism unchecked.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Teachers union had a good reason when they were started, and now, with ridiculous perks included in contracts (like they don't get enough time off!, and in Buffalo, teachers had cosmetic plastic surgery in their contracts), it's time to get rid of them. There are too many bad teachers out there exempt from getting fired, thanks to the union.
    I've seen it all before,..
    Bring it on cause I'm no victim
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 18,428
    Okay, first of all, YOU are a union officer?? Well, aren't you full of surprises? ;) :lol:

    I agree that some unions hurt the rest of us by making unreasonable demands. I am lucky to be in a union that doesn't do that - we spend our efforts just protecting what rights we already have and hopelessly trying to chase inflation rates with our salary rates (and so far are failing at that) rather than trying to demand more and more. But yes, so unions do this, usually as a bargaining tactic - they mistakenly believe that highballing with their offers will result in something close to what they actually want. But what that tactic actually does is piss off the other party at the table, create tension in bargaining, and piss off the general public. I fully support unions and want people to fight like hell to keep them, but sometimes the people at the head of these unions very simply have a BAD ATTITUDE. That is NOT helpful.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • backseatLover12" said:
    Teachers union had a good reason when they were started, and now, with ridiculous perks included in contracts (like they don't get enough time off!, and in Buffalo, teachers had cosmetic plastic surgery in their contracts), it's time to get rid of them. There are too many bad teachers out there exempt from getting fired, thanks to the union.
    I'm not so sure getting rid of teacher's unions is a wise thing... but developing systems of accountability within the unions would be a great thing.

    No teacher should just punch a clock or abuse their position. Kids are too important. Likewise, there's a witch hunt anytime a teacher is even accused of doing something (or nothing)- regardless of their individual credibility. Good teachers are too important as well and poor test scores are not always an indication of poor teaching.

    Honestly speaking though (from a teacher's perspective)... many of the problems we experience today could be thwarted at the point of entry (hiring practices). If we properly motivated people to get into the profession and had the luxury of choice for whom we choose to get in front of kids... not all... but many of the crappy things we have witnessed and are currently experiencing in the last decade or two would not happen. The potential teaching candidate pool is diminishing as we speak:

    There is little doubt that the pool of future "qualified" applicants will shrink significantly because of this change unless the federal and state governments step-in with incentives to encourage high school graduates who previously shunned teaching as a career due to the cost of four to six years of college and graduate school tuitions and the prospect of low career earnings.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marc-f-be ... 77506.html

    It's too easy to point fingers at problems when, in reality, we are all tacitly to blame. We are unwilling to fund a system to the level it demands, yet we still hope, and in some cases demand, that the system serves us in the capacity it might under ideal circumstances.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 4,632
    Thirty Bills Unpaid" said:
    Necessary evils.

    Unions are wrought with problems: in short... they lower the bar by not recognizing strong efforts and supporting weaker efforts. This doesn't exactly motivate the bottom end of the unionized work force and can result in uninspired efforts by harder working employees.

    Without them though... yikes.

    The only reason private companies pay reasonably close to union wages is because union wages set the standard. Don't think for a second that capitalism unchecked would be advantageous to the common man that comprises over 99% of the population.
    :thumbup:
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 18,428
    Thirty Bills Unpaid" said:
    [quote="backseatLover12"]Teachers union had a good reason when they were started, and now, with ridiculous perks included in contracts (like they don't get enough time off!, and in Buffalo, teachers had cosmetic plastic surgery in their contracts), it's time to get rid of them. There are too many bad teachers out there exempt from getting fired, thanks to the union.
    I'm not so sure getting rid of teacher's unions is a wise thing... but developing systems of accountability within the unions would be a great thing.

    No teacher should just punch a clock or abuse their position. Kids are too important. Likewise, there's a witch hunt anytime a teacher is even accused of doing something (or nothing)- regardless of their individual credibility. Good teachers are too important as well and poor test scores are not always an indication of poor teaching.

    Honestly speaking though (from a teacher's perspective)... many of the problems we experience today could be thwarted at the point of entry (hiring practices). If we properly motivated people to get into the profession and had the luxury of choice for whom we choose to get in front of kids... not all... but many of the crappy things we have witnessed and are currently experiencing in the last decade or two would not happen. The potential teaching candidate pool is diminishing as we speak:

    There is little doubt that the pool of future "qualified" applicants will shrink significantly because of this change unless the federal and state governments step-in with incentives to encourage high school graduates who previously shunned teaching as a career due to the cost of four to six years of college and graduate school tuitions and the prospect of low career earnings.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marc-f-be ... 77506.html

    It's too easy to point fingers at problems when, in reality, we are all tacitly to blame. We are unwilling to fund a system to the level it demands, yet we still hope, and in some cases demand, that the system serves us in the capacity it might under ideal circumstances.[/quote]
    Getting rid of teacher's unions is a VERY bad idea. They are one of the most underpaid and under-appreciated group of highly educated professionals (who have a HUGE impact on our children) in North America. Their contracts don't only involve "perks". They address issues that VERY directly affect the quality of education for our children. Class size limits, number and quality of assistants required for special needs children in regular classrooms, a clear outline of the disciplinary chain in a situation where parents and their ridiculous and dangerous expectations (or delusions) have more and more impact on good teachers, classroom safety, protecting teachers from false accusations of misconduct (again more and more common because of parents being insane), hours spent outside of the classroom doing work, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. Teachers unions are VERY VERY important (particularly for the best teachers). Yes, some teachers unions take the tactic that I mentioned before - they try to play hardball in the wrong way, and that REALLY has to be reigned in. However, teachers do continue to be underpaid and undervalued, and are in one of the most difficult and complicated professions at all levels, so a lot of what they are fighting for makes a whole lot of sense.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • backseatLover12backseatLover12 Posts: 1,429
    edited December 2013
    PJ_Soul" said:
    [quote="Thirty Bills Unpaid"][quote="backseatLover12"]Teachers union had a good reason when they were started, and now, with ridiculous perks included in contracts (like they don't get enough time off!, and in Buffalo, teachers had cosmetic plastic surgery in their contracts), it's time to get rid of them. There are too many bad teachers out there exempt from getting fired, thanks to the union.
    I'm not so sure getting rid of teacher's unions is a wise thing... but developing systems of accountability within the unions would be a great thing.

    No teacher should just punch a clock or abuse their position. Kids are too important. Likewise, there's a witch hunt anytime a teacher is even accused of doing something (or nothing)- regardless of their individual credibility. Good teachers are too important as well and poor test scores are not always an indication of poor teaching.

    Honestly speaking though (from a teacher's perspective)... many of the problems we experience today could be thwarted at the point of entry (hiring practices). If we properly motivated people to get into the profession and had the luxury of choice for whom we choose to get in front of kids... not all... but many of the crappy things we have witnessed and are currently experiencing in the last decade or two would not happen. The potential teaching candidate pool is diminishing as we speak:

    There is little doubt that the pool of future "qualified" applicants will shrink significantly because of this change unless the federal and state governments step-in with incentives to encourage high school graduates who previously shunned teaching as a career due to the cost of four to six years of college and graduate school tuitions and the prospect of low career earnings.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marc-f-be ... 77506.html

    It's too easy to point fingers at problems when, in reality, we are all tacitly to blame. We are unwilling to fund a system to the level it demands, yet we still hope, and in some cases demand, that the system serves us in the capacity it might under ideal circumstances.[/quote]
    Getting rid of teacher's unions is a VERY bad idea. They are one of the most underpaid and under-appreciated group of highly educated professionals (who have a HUGE impact on our children) in North America. Their contracts don't only involve "perks". They address issues that VERY directly affect the quality of education for our children. Class size limits, number and quality of assistants required for special needs children in regular classrooms, a clear outline of the disciplinary chain in a situation where parents and their ridiculous and dangerous expectations (or delusions) have more and more impact on good teachers, classroom safety, protecting teachers from false accusations of misconduct (again more and more common because of parents being insane), hours spent outside of the classroom doing work, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. Teachers unions are VERY VERY important (particularly for the best teachers). Yes, some teachers unions take the tactic that I mentioned before - they try to play hardball in the wrong way, and that REALLY has to be reigned in. However, teachers do continue to be underpaid and undervalued, and are in one of the most difficult and complicated professions at all levels, so a lot of what they are fighting for makes a whole lot of sense.[/quote]
    Although you, Soul are my foe, you are sadly mistaken if you think teaching is an underpaid and under-appreciated in all states. Teachers are paid extremely well in my state, 2nd highest in the nation. They, and other employees covered by a union, are fully protected from being fired. THAT is the NUMBER ONE problem with all unions. If you aren't up to par as in your field, you should be fired just like the rest of us. 2 of my sisters are teachers, fully protected, and even they, under all the new state educational provisions, are declaring that the field is not good to get into. Public education is a disgrace, and many of the teachers only get into the field because of the perks of getting summers off.

    Are you a parent? Do you have experience as a parent dealing with teachers, school boards and unions? Well, I do. And I speak from lots of experience. DO YOU?

    Wait, don't answer that, because I have foed you. I personally don't care what you think.

    Thirty Bills, good post, I agree with much of what you said. Merry Merry. :)
    Post edited by backseatLover12 on
    I've seen it all before,..
    Bring it on cause I'm no victim
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 18,428
    :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:


    My dad is a principal and my mom is a teacher. I am a union member in a university. Is that enough experience?

    Was I seriously just told to not respond?? WTF?
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJ_Soul" said:
    :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:


    My dad is a principal and my mom is a teacher. I am a union member in a university. Is that enough experience?
    Figures. :roll:
    I've seen it all before,..
    Bring it on cause I'm no victim
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 18,428
    backseatLover12" said:
    [quote="PJ_Soul"]:wtf: :wtf: :wtf:


    My dad is a principal and my mom is a teacher. I am a union member in a university. Is that enough experience?
    Figures. :roll:[/quote]
    Seriously, what is your problem???? :fp: Wtf is that supposed to mean? You have no clue what my parents think of the field or the union where they work.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 18,428
    backseatLover12" said:
    [quote="PJ_Soul"][quote="Thirty Bills Unpaid"]

    I'm not so sure getting rid of teacher's unions is a wise thing... but developing systems of accountability within the unions would be a great thing.

    No teacher should just punch a clock or abuse their position. Kids are too important. Likewise, there's a witch hunt anytime a teacher is even accused of doing something (or nothing)- regardless of their individual credibility. Good teachers are too important as well and poor test scores are not always an indication of poor teaching.

    Honestly speaking though (from a teacher's perspective)... many of the problems we experience today could be thwarted at the point of entry (hiring practices). If we properly motivated people to get into the profession and had the luxury of choice for whom we choose to get in front of kids... not all... but many of the crappy things we have witnessed and are currently experiencing in the last decade or two would not happen. The potential teaching candidate pool is diminishing as we speak:

    There is little doubt that the pool of future "qualified" applicants will shrink significantly because of this change unless the federal and state governments step-in with incentives to encourage high school graduates who previously shunned teaching as a career due to the cost of four to six years of college and graduate school tuitions and the prospect of low career earnings.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marc-f-be ... 77506.html

    It's too easy to point fingers at problems when, in reality, we are all tacitly to blame. We are unwilling to fund a system to the level it demands, yet we still hope, and in some cases demand, that the system serves us in the capacity it might under ideal circumstances.
    Getting rid of teacher's unions is a VERY bad idea. They are one of the most underpaid and under-appreciated group of highly educated professionals (who have a HUGE impact on our children) in North America. Their contracts don't only involve "perks". They address issues that VERY directly affect the quality of education for our children. Class size limits, number and quality of assistants required for special needs children in regular classrooms, a clear outline of the disciplinary chain in a situation where parents and their ridiculous and dangerous expectations (or delusions) have more and more impact on good teachers, classroom safety, protecting teachers from false accusations of misconduct (again more and more common because of parents being insane), hours spent outside of the classroom doing work, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. Teachers unions are VERY VERY important (particularly for the best teachers). Yes, some teachers unions take the tactic that I mentioned before - they try to play hardball in the wrong way, and that REALLY has to be reigned in. However, teachers do continue to be underpaid and undervalued, and are in one of the most difficult and complicated professions at all levels, so a lot of what they are fighting for makes a whole lot of sense.[/quote]
    Although you, Soul are my foe, you are sadly mistaken if you think teaching is an underpaid and under-appreciated in all states. Teachers are paid extremely well in my state, 2nd highest in the nation. They, and other employees covered by a union, are fully protected from being fired. THAT is the NUMBER ONE problem with all unions. If you aren't up to par as in your field, you should be fired just like the rest of us. 2 of my sisters are teachers, fully protected, and even they, under all the new state educational provisions, are declaring that the field is not good to get into. Public education is a disgrace, and many of the teachers only get into the field because of the perks of getting summers off.

    Are you a parent? Do you have experience as a parent dealing with teachers, school boards and unions? Well, I do. And I speak from lots of experience. DO YOU?

    Wait, don't answer that, because I have foed you. I personally don't care what you think.

    Thirty Bills, good post, I agree with much of what you said. Merry Merry. :)[/quote]
    BTW, the fact that you think that the number one problem with all unions is that everyone is fully protected from getting fired shows how little you actually know about unions.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJ_Soul" said:
    [quote="backseatLover12"][quote="PJ_Soul"]:wtf: :wtf: :wtf:


    My dad is a principal and my mom is a teacher. I am a union member in a university. Is that enough experience?
    Figures. :roll:[/quote]
    Seriously, what is your problem???? :fp: Wtf is that supposed to mean? You have no clue what my parents think of the field or the union where they work.[/quote]

    Umm...pretty sure you were told not to respond. Let's show some respect here and follow board etiquette. :lol: :lol: :lol:


    I love the internet sometimes.
    First Show: Chicago 1998
    Last Show: Leeds 2014
    Next Show: Cinci 2014
  • bootlegger10" said:
    [quote="PJ_Soul"][quote="backseatLover12"]

    Figures. :roll:
    Seriously, what is your problem???? :fp: Wtf is that supposed to mean? You have no clue what my parents think of the field or the union where they work.[/quote]

    Umm...pretty sure you were told not to respond. Let's show some respect here and follow board etiquette. :lol: :lol: :lol:


    I love the internet sometimes.[/quote]

    Yeah. In order to stay away from nasty people who like to get personal with name-calling? I won't play their games.
    I've seen it all before,..
    Bring it on cause I'm no victim
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 18,428
    bootlegger10" said:
    [quote="PJ_Soul"][quote="backseatLover12"]

    Figures. :roll:
    Seriously, what is your problem???? :fp: Wtf is that supposed to mean? You have no clue what my parents think of the field or the union where they work.[/quote]

    Umm...pretty sure you were told not to respond. Let's show some respect here and follow board etiquette. :lol: :lol: :lol:


    I love the internet sometimes.[/quote]
    :lol:
    For the record, I didn't say that I thought teachers are underpaid in ALL states (but I think they are underappreciated in North America generally, yes. That is obviously a general statement - I don't expect people to appreciate shitty teachers - I am obviously aware that there are bad teachers just like there are bad everything elses- not only do my parents, especially my dad, know the better than most, but also because I have had bad teachers (and great teachers), and know teachers who are bad (and wonderful)... But actually that is totally besides the point). I'm not even American btw - why would I know what the exact teachers salaries are in every single state? I'm talking mainly about Canada because that's where I live, but also have an idea of the average salaries of teachers in the US, and yes, they are generally way underpaid considering what their responsibilities actually are, their class sizes, the competition for positions, and the ever increasing amount of education people need to become teachers. And with salaries that are more in line with that, the better teachers would generally be, because the competition would get even tougher.

    Anyway, back to the main topic: some union leaders need to get a grip and better understanding of how to effectively bargain. Because yes, a minority of unions give unions in general bad name (a good example of that is something backseatlover said: people are under the impression that all unions ensure that no one can be fired even though they do poor work... that is actually the exception, not the rule, yet that exception has painted unions with a very bad brush).
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 18,428
    backseatLover12" said:
    [quote="bootlegger10"][quote="PJ_Soul"]
    Seriously, what is your problem???? :fp: Wtf is that supposed to mean? You have no clue what my parents think of the field or the union where they work.
    Umm...pretty sure you were told not to respond. Let's show some respect here and follow board etiquette. :lol: :lol: :lol:


    I love the internet sometimes.[/quote]

    Yeah. In order to stay away from nasty people who like to get personal with name-calling? I won't play their games.[/quote]
    Dude. You attacked me and were really rude and mean, and I simply responded to you. I may have been in the wrong, but you were in the wrong first and put me on the defensive by attacking me (hey, kind of like right now, too!), so how about getting a grip and getting over it?
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Where is that smilie... ?

    Here it is: :wtf:

    Folks... I'm not sure what just happened there, but yikes. I think there was much agreement in this page, but you cannot really tell in the context from which agreement was established.

    Nothing like a good 10C MT spat to get people worked up. :lol:

    PJ Soul, Backseat Lover, and Bootlegger... I sincerely wish you a nice XMas. I've had my differences in opinion with all of you at one point or another, but it was a difference in opinion only. You are all great people.

    Be safe.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Drowned Out" said:
    [quote="Thirty Bills Unpaid"]Necessary evils.

    Unions are wrought with problems: in short... they lower the bar by not recognizing strong efforts and supporting weaker efforts. This doesn't exactly motivate the bottom end of the unionized work force and can result in uninspired efforts by harder working employees.

    Without them though... yikes.

    The only reason private companies pay reasonably close to union wages is because union wages set the standard. Don't think for a second that capitalism unchecked would be advantageous to the common man that comprises over 99% of the population.
    :thumbup:[/quote]

    Cheers!
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 18,428
    Thirty Bills Unpaid" said:
    Where is that smilie... ?

    Here it is: :wtf:

    Folks... I'm not sure what just happened there, but yikes. I think there was much agreement in this page, but you cannot really tell in the context from which agreement was established.

    Nothing like a good 10C MT spat to get people worked up. :lol:

    PJ Soul, Backseat Lover, and Bootlegger... I sincerely wish you a nice XMas. I've had my differences in opinion with all of you at one point or another, but it was a difference in opinion only. You are all great people.

    Be safe.
    Yikes indeed. Sorry everyone for my involvement there.... I couldn't just say nothing in response because I just don't have that kind of restraint. :lol: (just to clear it up, he was referring to something that happened ages ago on the Porch, not to anything said in this thread).
    But yeah, I love everyone around here, even if we do disagree! No hard feelings on my part folks - I love the debate!! :D Merry Christmas!
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid" said:
    Where is that smilie... ?

    Here it is: :wtf:

    Folks... I'm not sure what just happened there, but yikes. I think there was much agreement in this page, but you cannot really tell in the context from which agreement was established.

    Nothing like a good 10C MT spat to get people worked up. :lol:

    PJ Soul, Backseat Lover, and Bootlegger... I sincerely wish you a nice XMas. I've had my differences in opinion with all of you at one point or another, but it was a difference in opinion only. You are all great people.

    Be safe.
    Merry Christmas!

    I think 99% of us all would get along fine in person. The internet just gives us a forum to debate and so we do that. It isn't all that surprising or probably is natural.

    I just found it f'n hilarious that people are telling people not to post or reply.
    First Show: Chicago 1998
    Last Show: Leeds 2014
    Next Show: Cinci 2014
  • bootlegger10" said:
    [quote="Thirty Bills Unpaid"]Where is that smilie... ?

    Here it is: :wtf:

    Folks... I'm not sure what just happened there, but yikes. I think there was much agreement in this page, but you cannot really tell in the context from which agreement was established.

    Nothing like a good 10C MT spat to get people worked up. :lol:

    PJ Soul, Backseat Lover, and Bootlegger... I sincerely wish you a nice XMas. I've had my differences in opinion with all of you at one point or another, but it was a difference in opinion only. You are all great people.

    Be safe.
    Merry Christmas!

    I think 99% of us all would get along fine in person. The internet just gives us a forum to debate and so we do that. It isn't all that surprising or probably is natural.

    I just found it f'n hilarious that people are telling people not to post or reply.[/quote]

    Merry Merry to you as well!

    It doesn't matter anyway if she replies; she is foed, so I don't have to view anything she writes. That feature is nice, when needed.

    Cheers everyone!
    I've seen it all before,..
    Bring it on cause I'm no victim
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 7,340
    Teachers in Ontario are far from overworked and underpaid. They do getting passing grades here in Ontario at being the number 1 whiners, along with the police and firefighters ... All of which are extremely well paid occupations.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
«13
Sign In or Register to comment.