So there are people who don't mind helping out there. But I find there are less and less everyday.
that's awesome that someone helped you like that. I think there are fewer instances like this, and I don't know that it's because there are fewer nice people, or that people are fearful in some way that they will be held accountable for doing the "wrong thing", even if their intentions are great. What if this cab driver raped them after you put them in the cab? What if the person died of puking on their own vomit and they wouldn't have if they hadn't been helped up? it's crazy that we have to think of these things now, but we do. all of a sudden, in today's world, you could be sued or worse for trying to help. or if the person woke up in a rage and knifed you. that sort of thing.
people look the other way because they are afraid to help and/or get involved, for a variety of reasons.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
At the risk of sounding repetitive... and jumping in late to an interesting exchange of dialogue... I'm going to offer the following:
The problem with this case and for most others that don't make the headlines is the simple fact that young men are prone to violent behaviours. Not only towards females... but to other men as well. The brain develops from 'inside out': meaning that the frontal lobe is the last part of the brain to fully mature. This part of the brain is the 'responsible' part of the brain. When alcohol and/or drugs are ingested, young men are prone to acting out and seeking opportunities to pleasure the most reptillian portion of the brain (in particular... fighting and mating). In many cases, overridden with primal urges... they aren't capable of understanding the seriousness of their actions.
I'm not so sure the frontal lobe ever develops in men. When young men grow into old men... it doesn't seem like we get a whole let better.
Polaris's points are hard to take, but there's an element of truth in them that people seem to want to dismiss or ignore. In a perfect world, we would not have to take precautionary measures to avoid getting raped or robbed... but we are far from perfect and we never will be- let's get serious. We give ourselves way too much credit. Humanity has no limits to the depth of our cruelty and disregard. For every eloquent philosophic speaker on the Moving Train... there are countless individuals that care very little for others or their environment. We are not a kind species.
I will be educating my beautiful daughter to deal with the reality she will face as she matures into a woman. Admittedly, this is sad... but to not do so would be tantamount to sticking my head up my ass, crossing my fingers, and just hoping that with a naive state of mind... she never comes across a bad person with dubious intent.
Of course... no amount of education can protect you entirely. I mean, geez man... half the damn time it's a husband or an uncle that a woman needed to be safeguarded from.
And which 'friends'? The ones who raped her? The ones who filmed? Or maybe the ones who stood by and joked or did nothing?
Did the victim 'ignore' them because she was passed out?
no ... two "former" friends who testified ... said that they pleaded for her to stop drinking and asked her to follow them and not go with those boys ... but she ignored them ...
The boys were classmates though, and prestigious, well-to-do athletes at that. While it's easy now to say you can't trust anyone, when you're a teen and out with peers partying, no one's likely to be fearful of the company you're in. There's a certain level of trust there. The guys took advantage of that. I'm on the fence between "living in fear" and wanting to trust my fellow human. I know I want to be able to trust and believe in the good in people. Most people do. One would never think that the smart sports hero teenager is capable of being a rapist, and why would they do such a thing anyway and jeopardize their future. But these guys did. When you're partying with "friends", there's a level of trust there.
ok ... one thing i will agree on is we are indeed going in circles ... so, i'll just say this last thing ...
I also said that there are indeed consequences of stupid behavior. I tend to think the victim has learned that and then some.
I'm really frustrated though by the news accounts that continue to state that she was intoxicated (and not how that fact would have prevented her from consenting, making the crime just as despicable as if she'd screamed "No! No!") and overlook the fact that both assailants were intoxicated as well (which doesn't excuse their actions and make them less deserving of punishment).
I certainly agree that girls and women must take all available precautions to avoid assault. I'm a former rape crisis counselor and am well acquainted with the reality of rape. I just don't see much point in dwelling on the victim's bad choices that led to her assault. From what I've seen, when we talk about those things in terms of bad choices/consequences, it serves to increase denial with the women who say "it would never happen to me" (because I'm a good girl, I don't drink to excess, I only go out with nice guys, I keep my doors locked, etc. etc. etc.).
I would prefer to give women the information in a way that empowers rather than frightens them.
It will be interesting to see opinions on this defense. I know some have approved of this defense with juveniles getting tried as adults in murder cases.
It will be interesting to see opinions on this defense. I know some have approved of this defense with juveniles getting tried as adults in murder cases.
(i think it is complete b.s. in both cases, btw)
This exact same case was argued on Law & Order: SVU! .... I don't recall how it ended. :think:
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
This exact same case was argued on Law & Order: SVU! .... I don't recall how it ended. :think:
Can you imagine trying to pitch an episode to the producers of Law & Order that was based exactly on the O.J. Simpson trial with the exact same outcome??? They would laugh you out of the building .....
It will be interesting to see opinions on this defense. I know some have approved of this defense with juveniles getting tried as adults in murder cases.
(i think it is complete b.s. in both cases, btw)
sigh...i was a 16 year old once and i never raped anyone...and unless i'm missing some stats, the majority of 16 year olds don't rape
It will be interesting to see opinions on this defense. I know some have approved of this defense with juveniles getting tried as adults in murder cases.
(i think it is complete b.s. in both cases, btw)
the undeveloped brain defense....i have heard it before...
quite an accomplishment to be a great football player and be able to read complex offensive and defensive schemes and make snap strategic decisions knowing full well the potential good and bad consequences of the decisions they make.. doesn't hold water to me for them to know that and then not know that sticking your fingers where they don't belong might possibly be frowned upon...
this appeal is not going to get any traction.
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway
It will be interesting to see opinions on this defense. I know some have approved of this defense with juveniles getting tried as adults in murder cases.
(i think it is complete b.s. in both cases, btw)
the undeveloped brain defense....i have heard it before...
quite an accomplishment to be a great football player and be able to read complex offensive and defensive schemes and make snap strategic decisions knowing full well the potential good and bad consequences of the decisions they make.. doesn't hold water to me for them to know that and then not know that sticking your fingers where they don't belong might possibly be frowned upon...
this appeal is not going to get any traction.
From the media, I'm sure it will, and they'll be sympathizing with them the whole way.
It will be interesting to see opinions on this defense. I know some have approved of this defense with juveniles getting tried as adults in murder cases.
(i think it is complete b.s. in both cases, btw)
the undeveloped brain defense....i have heard it before...
quite an accomplishment to be a great football player and be able to read complex offensive and defensive schemes and make snap strategic decisions knowing full well the potential good and bad consequences of the decisions they make.. doesn't hold water to me for them to know that and then not know that sticking your fingers where they don't belong might possibly be frowned upon...
this appeal is not going to get any traction.
From the media, I'm sure it will, and they'll be sympathizing with them the whole way.
The media doesn't make the decision.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
the undeveloped brain defense....i have heard it before...
quite an accomplishment to be a great football player and be able to read complex offensive and defensive schemes and make snap strategic decisions knowing full well the potential good and bad consequences of the decisions they make.. doesn't hold water to me for them to know that and then not know that sticking your fingers where they don't belong might possibly be frowned upon...
this appeal is not going to get any traction.
From the media, I'm sure it will, and they'll be sympathizing with them the whole way.
The media doesn't make the decision.
I know that, but whatever traction it does get, you know where the media will be.
It will be interesting to see opinions on this defense. I know some have approved of this defense with juveniles getting tried as adults in murder cases.
(i think it is complete b.s. in both cases, btw)
the undeveloped brain defense....i have heard it before...
quite an accomplishment to be a great football player and be able to read complex offensive and defensive schemes and make snap strategic decisions knowing full well the potential good and bad consequences of the decisions they make.. doesn't hold water to me for them to know that and then not know that sticking your fingers where they don't belong might possibly be frowned upon...
this appeal is not going to get any traction.
As per my previous post... please trust me that I had no idea they were actually going to make a legal defence under such a premise. I stand by what I wrote... it's legitimate... but I also stand by my assertion that these guys need to face the consequences for their action.
By the way... a portion of my post was attributed to talking of the effects of alcohol on the underdeveloped brain. Football players rarely attend practices and compete in games when they are shitfaced. If they did... we'd see the results of that very easily. Consuming lcohol and being drunk is not an excuse either.
I could stand to see some guidelines for when juveniles would be charged as adults. As I understand it, there currently are no standards in any state and the decision is usually made by the local district attorney, often because of the public outcry about the crime. I think there are times when it's appropriate to charge an adolescent as an adult and times when it may not be, but currently it can be used for political grandstanding by an elected official.
Don't ask me what the guidelines should be. I just think they should be based on logical criteria and not emotion. In a case like this one, I have a lot of trouble separating my emotions from the crime which is why I think there ought to be some kind of standards.
But like norm, I think most 16 year olds know better than to do things like this no matter how undeveloped their brains.
The fucked up part of it is this town is all behind the rapists not the victim but the creeps who raped this young girl and you know why , the precious game of football god forbid they loose their star players because we all know it's hard to find that special athelete but a common girl they are dime a dz .....Damn i'm pissed have we found life in another planet yet :oops:
By the way... a portion of my post was attributed to talking of the effects of alcohol on the underdeveloped brain. Football players rarely attend practices and compete in games when they are shitfaced. If they did... we'd see the results of that very easily. Consuming lcohol and being drunk is not an excuse either.
it's true...after that night at the strip club, the coyotes played like shit the next day...coach kilmer was pissed
As much as I joke about this statement, the way the world is today, somebody is going to get off using it for a rape case. "I don't know my penis just fell out of my pants and the rest is history." Drunk.....sixteen....passed out.....football hero.......threats to the girl who was raped......That is one fucked up town to say that the boys should go free......BUT......they probably are still clutching to WMD and caves in ToraBora. ha ha ha ha Losers!!!
The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
apparently all 3 major news networks have leaked the victim's name. i thought that it is illegal to publicly state names and show pictures of victims of sexual assault?
way to go networks. i hope she sues the hell out of all of you.
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway
apparently all 3 major news networks have leaked the victim's name. i thought that it is illegal to publicly state names and show pictures of victims of sexual assault?
way to go networks. i hope she sues the hell out of all of you.
It's not illegal. It's a "courtesy" on the part of media outlets.
There have been a few other instances where a victim's name was disclosed.
Really??? Just 'courtesy'? Even in the case of a minor? That's shit.
The other examples I can think of weren't minors but I actually believe that the only legal requirement for confidentiality is for juveniles charged with crimes. It's pretty low to think that they'd publish the name of a minor victim. Usually they won't even publish names of the victim's family because the victim might be identified through them.
Steubenville Football Coach Gets Contract Extension After Involvement In Rape Scandal
Reno Saccocia has been the head football coach at Steubenville High School since 1983. He has won 311 football games, made 23 appearances in the state playoffs, and captured three Ohio state championships. That, apparently, is all that matters to the school board that covers the high school, because it just gave Saccocia — who also may have covered up the sexual assault of a teenage girl by two of his players, according to court documents, and is the likely subject of a grand jury investigation because of it — a two-year contract extension.
The extension is for an administrative services position, separate from a coaching contract. Salon’s Katie McDonough flagged the announcement buried in the local business section of the Ohio Valley Star:
Two-year administrative contracts for Charles Kokiko, administrator; Bryan Mills, assistant middle school principal; Reno Saccoccia, director of administrative services; Joseph Yanok, middle school principal; Melinda Young, director of programs; and Sara Elliot, school psychologist.
Covering up the sexual assault, which became front-page news across the nation this spring, would be a violation of Ohio law. But Saccocia’s players were so confident that he’d have their backs that the morning after the assault took place, Trent Mays, who along with Ma’Lik Richmond was convicted of raping the teenage girl, texted a friend: “I got Reno. He took care of it and shit ain’t gonna happen, even if they did take it to court. Like he was joking about it so I’m not worried.”
A 16-year-old girl is assaulted, a player thinks “shit ain’t gonna happen” because he has a coach who will cover it up, and the coach willfully obliges. For that, the coach doesn’t get fired, but instead gets treated with the same “shit happens” attitude he apparently instilled in his players. There are no winners in Steubenville, no matter what Saccocia’s record on the football field says, because Steubenville is what America’s rape culture looks like.
Comments
that's awesome that someone helped you like that. I think there are fewer instances like this, and I don't know that it's because there are fewer nice people, or that people are fearful in some way that they will be held accountable for doing the "wrong thing", even if their intentions are great. What if this cab driver raped them after you put them in the cab? What if the person died of puking on their own vomit and they wouldn't have if they hadn't been helped up? it's crazy that we have to think of these things now, but we do. all of a sudden, in today's world, you could be sued or worse for trying to help. or if the person woke up in a rage and knifed you. that sort of thing.
people look the other way because they are afraid to help and/or get involved, for a variety of reasons.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
The problem with this case and for most others that don't make the headlines is the simple fact that young men are prone to violent behaviours. Not only towards females... but to other men as well. The brain develops from 'inside out': meaning that the frontal lobe is the last part of the brain to fully mature. This part of the brain is the 'responsible' part of the brain. When alcohol and/or drugs are ingested, young men are prone to acting out and seeking opportunities to pleasure the most reptillian portion of the brain (in particular... fighting and mating). In many cases, overridden with primal urges... they aren't capable of understanding the seriousness of their actions.
I'm not so sure the frontal lobe ever develops in men. When young men grow into old men... it doesn't seem like we get a whole let better.
Polaris's points are hard to take, but there's an element of truth in them that people seem to want to dismiss or ignore. In a perfect world, we would not have to take precautionary measures to avoid getting raped or robbed... but we are far from perfect and we never will be- let's get serious. We give ourselves way too much credit. Humanity has no limits to the depth of our cruelty and disregard. For every eloquent philosophic speaker on the Moving Train... there are countless individuals that care very little for others or their environment. We are not a kind species.
I will be educating my beautiful daughter to deal with the reality she will face as she matures into a woman. Admittedly, this is sad... but to not do so would be tantamount to sticking my head up my ass, crossing my fingers, and just hoping that with a naive state of mind... she never comes across a bad person with dubious intent.
Of course... no amount of education can protect you entirely. I mean, geez man... half the damn time it's a husband or an uncle that a woman needed to be safeguarded from.
The boys were classmates though, and prestigious, well-to-do athletes at that. While it's easy now to say you can't trust anyone, when you're a teen and out with peers partying, no one's likely to be fearful of the company you're in. There's a certain level of trust there. The guys took advantage of that. I'm on the fence between "living in fear" and wanting to trust my fellow human. I know I want to be able to trust and believe in the good in people. Most people do. One would never think that the smart sports hero teenager is capable of being a rapist, and why would they do such a thing anyway and jeopardize their future. But these guys did. When you're partying with "friends", there's a level of trust there.
http://www.upworthy.com/cnn-pays-touchi ... irl?c=upw1
Strange coverage - just shows where the mindset still is in NA.
From pg. 5 (thanks for this Redrock). http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/03 ... ?mobile=nc
I'm really frustrated though by the news accounts that continue to state that she was intoxicated (and not how that fact would have prevented her from consenting, making the crime just as despicable as if she'd screamed "No! No!") and overlook the fact that both assailants were intoxicated as well (which doesn't excuse their actions and make them less deserving of punishment).
I certainly agree that girls and women must take all available precautions to avoid assault. I'm a former rape crisis counselor and am well acquainted with the reality of rape. I just don't see much point in dwelling on the victim's bad choices that led to her assault. From what I've seen, when we talk about those things in terms of bad choices/consequences, it serves to increase denial with the women who say "it would never happen to me" (because I'm a good girl, I don't drink to excess, I only go out with nice guys, I keep my doors locked, etc. etc. etc.).
I would prefer to give women the information in a way that empowers rather than frightens them.
Read more: http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national ... z2O1MQxRbF
Hmm ... interesting.
It will be interesting to see opinions on this defense. I know some have approved of this defense with juveniles getting tried as adults in murder cases.
(i think it is complete b.s. in both cases, btw)
:fp:
sigh...i was a 16 year old once and i never raped anyone...and unless i'm missing some stats, the majority of 16 year olds don't rape
try again counselor
quite an accomplishment to be a great football player and be able to read complex offensive and defensive schemes and make snap strategic decisions knowing full well the potential good and bad consequences of the decisions they make.. doesn't hold water to me for them to know that and then not know that sticking your fingers where they don't belong might possibly be frowned upon...
this appeal is not going to get any traction.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
From the media, I'm sure it will, and they'll be sympathizing with them the whole way.
I know that, but whatever traction it does get, you know where the media will be.
As per my previous post... please trust me that I had no idea they were actually going to make a legal defence under such a premise. I stand by what I wrote... it's legitimate... but I also stand by my assertion that these guys need to face the consequences for their action.
By the way... a portion of my post was attributed to talking of the effects of alcohol on the underdeveloped brain. Football players rarely attend practices and compete in games when they are shitfaced. If they did... we'd see the results of that very easily. Consuming lcohol and being drunk is not an excuse either.
Don't ask me what the guidelines should be. I just think they should be based on logical criteria and not emotion. In a case like this one, I have a lot of trouble separating my emotions from the crime which is why I think there ought to be some kind of standards.
But like norm, I think most 16 year olds know better than to do things like this no matter how undeveloped their brains.
it's true...after that night at the strip club, the coyotes played like shit the next day...coach kilmer was pissed
Absolutely.
The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
way to go networks. i hope she sues the hell out of all of you.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
There have been a few other instances where a victim's name was disclosed.
This whole case makes me so sick.
Steubenville Football Coach Gets Contract Extension After Involvement In Rape Scandal
Reno Saccocia has been the head football coach at Steubenville High School since 1983. He has won 311 football games, made 23 appearances in the state playoffs, and captured three Ohio state championships. That, apparently, is all that matters to the school board that covers the high school, because it just gave Saccocia — who also may have covered up the sexual assault of a teenage girl by two of his players, according to court documents, and is the likely subject of a grand jury investigation because of it — a two-year contract extension.
The extension is for an administrative services position, separate from a coaching contract. Salon’s Katie McDonough flagged the announcement buried in the local business section of the Ohio Valley Star:
Covering up the sexual assault, which became front-page news across the nation this spring, would be a violation of Ohio law. But Saccocia’s players were so confident that he’d have their backs that the morning after the assault took place, Trent Mays, who along with Ma’Lik Richmond was convicted of raping the teenage girl, texted a friend: “I got Reno. He took care of it and shit ain’t gonna happen, even if they did take it to court. Like he was joking about it so I’m not worried.”
A 16-year-old girl is assaulted, a player thinks “shit ain’t gonna happen” because he has a coach who will cover it up, and the coach willfully obliges. For that, the coach doesn’t get fired, but instead gets treated with the same “shit happens” attitude he apparently instilled in his players. There are no winners in Steubenville, no matter what Saccocia’s record on the football field says, because Steubenville is what America’s rape culture looks like.
http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/ ... al_st.html