True, but they have a lot of leeway within that code and their sentencing. Judges are far from being perfectly impartial. They also allow their own sentiments to influence their sentencing.
Edit: was wondering what the average was and found this: "Under federal law the punishment for rape can range from a fine to Life imprisonment". Depending on the 'type' of rape and where it happened (and the judge). Average seems to be 8 years.
remember these kids were tried as juveniles ... not adults ... it's different ... the judge pretty much said if they were tried as adults ... they've would've gotten way stiffer sentences ...
Yeah, I think for juvenile trials the imprisonment ends at 21. They do try young people as adults at times, these kids are truly lucky that didn't happen.
It all makes me want to barf. (And thank the lucky stars I don't have a teenage daughter to lose sleep about.)
The love he receives is the love that is saved
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
What do you guys think of one of the boys walking over to (was it the girl that he raped? You couldn't see on the video) and broke down crying after the verdict was read. I don't know how I feel about the breaking down. Sometimes you wonder if it's acting or if it's real. This is what the reporter said was so difficult to watch, but I wonder if it was even real.
What really, really bugs me is that in all of this, it is still subtly implied in reports, etc. that the victim was also at fault for being drunk.
What the judge said: "Lipps said he hopes the defendants, as well as the victim, take this experience and build upon it as they grow into adulthood. He also said he hopes all parents have discussions with their children about the use of social media and drinking alcohol, adding that drinking is an "age-old problem" with teens."
So maybe if the girl hadn't been part of this 'age-old teen problem', she wouldn't have been drunk and wouldn't have been raped?
So many reports dwell on the state of the victim who was seen downing vodka, being 'easy', etc. but these same reports don't really mention the state of the guys and what they were doing. These fine young men with futures.
For me it is not only the rape, but the whole degrading comments, the humiliation of this woman, etc. Bad, very bad. Whether you are 16 or 30 - shows some 'true colours'? How one perceives women?
What do you guys think of one of the boys walking over to (was it the girl that he raped? You couldn't see on the video) and broke down crying after the verdict was read. I don't know how I feel about the breaking down. Sometimes you wonder if it's acting or if it's real. This is what the reporter said was so difficult to watch, but I wonder if it was even real.
They all break down Jeanwah... The realisation they are going to jail, the realisation that their action has a definite consequence for their future, the realisation that they haven't gotten away with it this time. Nothing do with regretting what they did to their victim but regretting the consequence of their action on their lives. As one said breaking down: 'MY life is over, no one is going to want me'. Not 'my VICTIM's life has been ruined...).
They may have said they regretted their actions but I believe that is what they have been instructed to say (especially after their lack of remorse from the 'early days'). Then again, I may be cynical.
What do you guys think of one of the boys walking over to (was it the girl that he raped? You couldn't see on the video) and broke down crying after the verdict was read. I don't know how I feel about the breaking down. Sometimes you wonder if it's acting or if it's real. This is what the reporter said was so difficult to watch, but I wonder if it was even real.
They all break down Jeanwah... The realisation they are going to jail, the realisation that their action has a definite consequence for their future, the realisation that they haven't gotten away with it this time. Nothing do with regretting what they did to their victim but regretting the consequence of their action on their lives. As one said breaking down: 'MY life is over, no one is going to want me'. Not 'my VICTIM's life has been ruined...).
They may have said they regretted their actions but I believe that is what they have been instructed to say (especially after their lack of remorse from the 'early days'). Then again, I may be cynical.
I tend to be cynical about it too, because it's just blatant manipulation of the court when a defendant, or anyone really, breaks down. To hear the reporter get affected by it makes it all seem like a circus with some well played actors, manipulating everyone else.
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
I too am a bit cynical, at least when it comes to these men crying at the verdict. Even if sincere - though I doubt it...too little, too late.
Perhaps it was relief in knowing they got a much lighter sentence than deserved?
(sidenote - I'd like to drop-kick the judge and the rapists off the Golden Gate Bridge)
thing is, those boys weren't crying because they realized what they did was incredibly wrong...they're crying because they're going to jail...frankly, both of them along with the fuckheads that posted the videos etc should all be hung be their balls
I tend to be cynical about it too, because it's just blatant manipulation of the court when a defendant, or anyone really, breaks down. To hear the reporter get affected by it makes it all seem like a circus with some well played actors, manipulating everyone else.
Did you listen to the 'sorry' of the first guy? He was sorry that a photo was taken and that shouldn't have happened????? wtf???
That report was just vile. All this sympathy for these guys... they brought it upon themselves.
Also wondering what lasting effect it will have on these 'promising young men' (and I don't think the Candy woman was talking about the sex offenders register but imprisonment). What about the lasting trauma for the victim?
I tend to be cynical about it too, because it's just blatant manipulation of the court when a defendant, or anyone really, breaks down. To hear the reporter get affected by it makes it all seem like a circus with some well played actors, manipulating everyone else.
Did you listen to the 'sorry' of the first guy? He was sorry that a photo was taken and that shouldn't have happened????? wtf???
That report was just vile. All this sympathy for these guys... they brought it upon themselves.
Also wondering what lasting effect it will have on these 'promising young men' (and I don't think the Candy woman was talking about the sex offenders register but imprisonment). What about the lasting trauma for the victim?
The sympathy comes from sports worship. It's en epidemic in the U.S. don't you know!
Yeah... I guess the girl wasn't a 'promising young woman'. Was it just as heartbreaking and difficult to watch when she broke down in court? We won't know, will we? Because we rely on the media for 'fair' reporting.
How fair were they to the victim?
"How The Media Took Sides In The Steubenville Rape Case"
Yeah... I guess the girl wasn't a 'promising young woman'. Was it just as heartbreaking and difficult to watch when she broke down in court? We won't know, will we? Because we rely on the media for 'fair' reporting.
How fair were they to the victim?
"How The Media Took Sides In The Steubenville Rape Case"
ok ... i believe that there is no excuse for these boys ... but at the same time - if you get completely inebriated and you get into a car and drive or you pass out and get robbed - people would have no problem putting the blame strictly on that person ... it's not to say she should/deserve to be raped ... not at all but if society doesn't understand what role she played in the affair - then it hasn't learned a damn thing ...
My take... yeah, they might have been nice kids, but they were very poor decision makers and their moral compass was all screwed up.
BUT...
If, as they claim to be and have describes as, nice, good kids... and they commited these dispicable immoral criminal acts, then one of two things happened...
They were brought up to know and do better, but ignored the moral implications. This means they are NOT nice, good kids and their parents failed at their job as 'parent'.
If they were not brought up to know and do better, this is their normal personalities, then, they are NOT nice, good kids and their parents failed to do their basic job as 'parents'.
The point being, they are NOT nice, good kids. They are either sociopaths with no empathy towards a fellow human in need... or they are just horrible kids who need to be punished for their crimes.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
My take... yeah, they might have been nice kids, but they were very poor decision makers and their moral compass was all screwed up.
BUT...
If, as they claim to be and have describes as, nice, good kids... and they commited these dispicable immoral criminal acts, then one of two things happened...
They were brought up to know and do better, but ignored the moral implications. This means they are NOT nice, good kids and their parents failed at their job as 'parent'.
If they were not brought up to know and do better, this is their normal personalities, then, they are NOT nice, good kids and their parents failed to do their basic job as 'parents'.
The point being, they are NOT nice, good kids. They are either sociopaths with no empathy towards a fellow human in need... or they are just horrible kids who need to be punished for their crimes.
but but but...they're really good at playing football!
ok ... i believe that there is no excuse for these boys ... but at the same time - if you get completely inebriated and you get into a car and drive or you pass out and get robbed - people would have no problem putting the blame strictly on that person ... it's not to say she should/deserve to be raped ... not at all but if society doesn't understand what role she played in the affair - then it hasn't learned a damn thing ...
Rape is the crime here, not alcohol. SHE did not play a role in this affair - it was the doing of the guys, and only them. Drinking is not a crime (though maybe here, we have underage drinking??). Raping is.
Drinking AND driving is a crime.
Yes, one has to learn about the effect of alcohol but putting such a crime on the victim because said victim has been drinking is just plain disgusting (whether the rape or your example of robbery).
My take... yeah, they might have been nice kids, but they were very poor decision makers and their moral compass was all screwed up.
BUT...
If, as they claim to be and have describes as, nice, good kids... and they commited these dispicable immoral criminal acts, then one of two things happened...
They were brought up to know and do better, but ignored the moral implications. This means they are NOT nice, good kids and their parents failed at their job as 'parent'.
If they were not brought up to know and do better, this is their normal personalities, then, they are NOT nice, good kids and their parents failed to do their basic job as 'parents'.
The point being, they are NOT nice, good kids. They are either sociopaths with no empathy towards a fellow human in need... or they are just horrible kids who need to be punished for their crimes.
Eh, ya know, they probably are "OK" kids with good grades, whatever. But there's something that goes along with being the star of the highly-worshipped high school football team that makes one think that they're unstoppable, entitled and treated better than most of his classmates. That sort of treatment leads one to believe that they can do no wrong, so, they test boundaries. Sometimes they succeed with getting away with them, and sometimes they're caught. Theses guys pushed the limit too far, and got caught. And destroyed their career in football.
ok ... i believe that there is no excuse for these boys ... but at the same time - if you get completely inebriated and you get into a car and drive or you pass out and get robbed - people would have no problem putting the blame strictly on that person ... it's not to say she should/deserve to be raped ... not at all but if society doesn't understand what role she played in the affair - then it hasn't learned a damn thing ...
...
Just because someone is stupid, doesn't mean people can commit crimes against them.
Like, yeah, I can be an idiot and staple 100 dollar bills to my jacket and sit outside a liquor store in the worst part of town at 3:00 A.M... it does not mean people can beat the shit out of me or point a gun at me. of course, i should expect the outcome... but, if I am incapacitated... it makes it difficult to make those rational decisions.
...
And what should have happened was at least one person who made contact with this situation should have manned up and did the right thing... that would be to call 9-1-1 an tell them there was a serverly intoxicated young woman who might need medical attention.
Better yet, taken the girl to either her home or an emergency room.
...
Also... if you cannot walk... cannot speak.... and cannot remember anything the next day. Best guess is GHB is probably involved.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
ok ... i believe that there is no excuse for these boys ... but at the same time - if you get completely inebriated and you get into a car and drive or you pass out and get robbed - people would have no problem putting the blame strictly on that person ... it's not to say she should/deserve to be raped ... not at all but if society doesn't understand what role she played in the affair - then it hasn't learned a damn thing ...
Why do men feel that there CAN be an excuse to violate a female? If someone gets drunk and then robbed it will not affect them the way a rape will affect someone. All the porn out there plays a big factor on how people feel about sex. Sex is supposed to be special, away to show love. Not a game that everyone can play even on those that do not want to play. People are just desensitize to the reality when it comes to sex.
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
Eh, ya know, they probably are "OK" kids with good grades, whatever. But there's something that goes along with being the star of the highly-worshipped high school football team that makes one think that they're unstoppable, entitled and treated better than most of his classmates. That sort of treatment leads one to believe that they can do no wrong, so, they test boundaries. Sometimes they succeed with getting away with them, and sometimes they're caught. Theses guys pushed the limit too far, and got caught.
...
Still... at some point you think that they would HAVE to feel empathy for the person they were doing this to, having their core moral beliefs kick in and say to themselves, 'This is wrong'.
The thing is... they are learning at a young age that they should not have believed in all of the hype about them.
...
Also, the bystanders are going to be facing a Grand Jury for their role in this. The role in which they preteneded it was okay.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
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F Me In The Brain
this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 30,617
...
Also... if you cannot walk... cannot speak.... and cannot remember anything the next day. Best guess is GHB is probably involved.
Agree with all of your points but booze can 100% do this to people. Seen it many times. Thankfully I dont (now and I didnt when I was that age) associate with sociopaths who find this sort of stuff acceptable/fun.
soo - is the lesson then to continue to get inebriated to the point of being unconscious and that's ok!?? ... is that what you would have learned here? ... again - i'm not condoning the actions or saying they were justified ... but if you don't understand that she played a part in this to her own detriment then we are missing the truth of it ...
also again ... if you do anything while you are inebriated - most people would put the blame on you ... if you go tell you friends you got blasted and passed out on the street and someone stole your wallet ... you think people are gonna say - awwwww, that's totally not your fault man? ... c'mon ...
These two better get more than one year in detention the judge gave them
as the minimum ...
they need to be in there till they turn 21. No sympathy from me and no they are not nice guys,
they are disgusting insensitive selfish stupid asses.
Nice guys would not do that to a girl, nice guys protect not hurt.
Same goes for all those in on this, I hope the law seeks to punish them as well.
soo - is the lesson then to continue to get inebriated to the point of being unconscious and that's ok!?? ... is that what you would have learned here? ... again - i'm not condoning the actions or saying they were justified ... but if you don't understand that she played a part in this to her own detriment then we are missing the truth of it ...
also again ... if you do anything while you are inebriated - most people would put the blame on you ... if you go tell you friends you got blasted and passed out on the street and someone stole your wallet ... you think people are gonna say - awwwww, that's totally not your fault man? ... c'mon ...
...
I totally get where you are coming from. But, as humans, we are not supposed to be predatory animals who prey on the weak... or the incapacitated. We are supposed to care for them.
Yeah, if she got really drunk... and one loser criminal guy rapes her. It is still on the guy because you cannot rape (or steal someone's wallet), regardless of the state they are in.
The greater picture here is that there were other people involved. I would hope that i would have the courage to stop a friend from commiting a crime... but, i KNOW I would not participate in said crime, mostly on moral grounds... but, also the fact that I am way too pretty and have too nice of an ass to be in prison.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
soo - is the lesson then to continue to get inebriated to the point of being unconscious and that's ok!?? ... is that what you would have learned here? ... .
No... the lesson here is that you do not rape a girl, humiliate her, film it, or participate in any other way, finding it the 'fun' thing to do, especially if the victim cannot 'fight' back. You learn that if you commit such an despicable act, you will be punished.
THAT is the primary lesson.
We do not know what these guys would have done if she had not been drunk. They may have drugged her, hit her, one or two attacking whilst others holding down? We don't know. RAPE is the issue.
Responsible intake of alcohol is another issue. Yes, one expose's oneself more to criminal acts perpetuated by others onto one's self but the ultimate responsibility lies with the cowardly criminal.
...
I totally get where you are coming from. But, as humans, we are not supposed to be predatory animals who prey on the weak... or the incapacitated. We are supposed to care for them.
Yeah, if she got really drunk... and one loser criminal guy rapes her. It is still on the guy because you cannot rape (or steal someone's wallet), regardless of the state they are in.
The greater picture here is that there were other people involved. I would hope that i would have the courage to stop a friend from commiting a crime... but, i KNOW I would not participate in said crime, mostly on moral grounds... but, also the fact that I am way too pretty and have too nice of an ass to be in prison.
i agree with everything you are saying ... but just as we try and acknowledge what role some kid who got sent the pictures was ... we need to acknowledge the role of the victim ... she was so drunk, she could not even NOT consent ... ignoring that aspect of the affair I think is irresponsible and will not help in the overall picture ... it's not to put blame on her ... simply that she put herself in a very bad situation ... i can list a myriad of examples where this would apply ... it seems like with rape - we want to shield ourselves from this ... sitting here and blaming two kids and/or their friends is the easy thing to do ... what it won't do is end the troubling statistic that 1 in 5 women in the US will be raped ... it's a complicated issue and if our goal is to change that statistic for the better - we have to look at everything ...
No... the lesson here is that you do not rape a girl, humiliate her, film it, or participate in any other way, finding it the 'fun' thing to do, especially if the victim cannot 'fight' back. You learn that if you commit such an despicable act, you will be punished.
THAT is the primary lesson.
We do not know what these guys would have done if she had not been drunk. They may have drugged her, hit her, one or two attacking whilst others holding down? We don't know. RAPE is the issue.
Responsible intake of alcohol is another issue. Yes, one expose's oneself more to criminal acts perpetuated by others onto one's self but the ultimate responsibility lies with the cowardly criminal.
i think everyone get's the primary lesson ... but does everyone get everything else? ... judging by the responses to me - maybe not ...
soo - is the lesson then to continue to get inebriated to the point of being unconscious and that's ok!?? ... is that what you would have learned here? ... .
No... the lesson here is that you do not rape a girl, humiliate her, film it, or participate in any other way, finding it the 'fun' thing to do, especially if the victim cannot 'fight' back. You learn that if you commit such an despicable act, you will be punished.
THAT is the primary lesson.
We do not know what these guys would have done if she had not been drunk. They may have drugged her, hit her, one or two attacking whilst others holding down? We don't know. RAPE is the issue.
Responsible intake of alcohol is another issue. Yes, one expose's oneself more to criminal acts perpetuated by others onto one's self but the ultimate responsibility lies with the cowardly criminal.
...
Exactly. The lesson to be learned is that you need to get your moral compass pointing in the right direction.
The right thing to do would have been to dump her off at her front door... ring the doorbell... and run like Hell.
The right thing for the bystanders would be to say something... or DO something. That 'something' is something other than pulling out your phone to take a picture to update your Facebook Status.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
ok ... i believe that there is no excuse for these boys ... but at the same time - if you get completely inebriated and you get into a car and drive or you pass out and get robbed - people would have no problem putting the blame strictly on that person ... it's not to say she should/deserve to be raped ... not at all but if society doesn't understand what role she played in the affair - then it hasn't learned a damn thing ...
Why do men feel that there CAN be an excuse to violate a female?
"Men" do not feel there can be an excuse to violate a female. What a silly thing to say. I know what polaris was saying, and he's not making excuses. Rapists are the ones who feel there can be an excuse, not "men."
All the porn out there plays a big factor on how people feel about sex. Sex is supposed to be special, away to show love. Not a game that everyone can play even on those that do not want to play. People are just desensitize to the reality when it comes to sex.
Disagree. I'd like to agree with you, but who's to say sex is only supposed to be special? Sex can be used for recreation, if done responsibly. I do not say that as a result of porn either and the theory that I may be desensitized. :?
Comments
Yeah, I think for juvenile trials the imprisonment ends at 21. They do try young people as adults at times, these kids are truly lucky that didn't happen.
It all makes me want to barf. (And thank the lucky stars I don't have a teenage daughter to lose sleep about.)
I'm with you on the no-pity stance.
What the judge said: "Lipps said he hopes the defendants, as well as the victim, take this experience and build upon it as they grow into adulthood. He also said he hopes all parents have discussions with their children about the use of social media and drinking alcohol, adding that drinking is an "age-old problem" with teens."
So maybe if the girl hadn't been part of this 'age-old teen problem', she wouldn't have been drunk and wouldn't have been raped?
So many reports dwell on the state of the victim who was seen downing vodka, being 'easy', etc. but these same reports don't really mention the state of the guys and what they were doing. These fine young men with futures.
For me it is not only the rape, but the whole degrading comments, the humiliation of this woman, etc. Bad, very bad. Whether you are 16 or 30 - shows some 'true colours'? How one perceives women?
They all break down Jeanwah... The realisation they are going to jail, the realisation that their action has a definite consequence for their future, the realisation that they haven't gotten away with it this time. Nothing do with regretting what they did to their victim but regretting the consequence of their action on their lives. As one said breaking down: 'MY life is over, no one is going to want me'. Not 'my VICTIM's life has been ruined...).
They may have said they regretted their actions but I believe that is what they have been instructed to say (especially after their lack of remorse from the 'early days'). Then again, I may be cynical.
I tend to be cynical about it too, because it's just blatant manipulation of the court when a defendant, or anyone really, breaks down. To hear the reporter get affected by it makes it all seem like a circus with some well played actors, manipulating everyone else.
Perhaps it was relief in knowing they got a much lighter sentence than deserved?
(sidenote - I'd like to drop-kick the judge and the rapists off the Golden Gate Bridge)
Did you listen to the 'sorry' of the first guy? He was sorry that a photo was taken and that shouldn't have happened????? wtf???
That report was just vile. All this sympathy for these guys... they brought it upon themselves.
Also wondering what lasting effect it will have on these 'promising young men' (and I don't think the Candy woman was talking about the sex offenders register but imprisonment). What about the lasting trauma for the victim?
Pretty light sentence given the circumstances.
All in all, I thought that the all American, apple pie eating, football hereos were going to get off. So something is better than nothing.
The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
The sympathy comes from sports worship. It's en epidemic in the U.S. don't you know!
How fair were they to the victim?
"How The Media Took Sides In The Steubenville Rape Case"
http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/03 ... ?mobile=nc
Good find. "Promising futures" is not what these guys have.
BUT...
If, as they claim to be and have describes as, nice, good kids... and they commited these dispicable immoral criminal acts, then one of two things happened...
They were brought up to know and do better, but ignored the moral implications. This means they are NOT nice, good kids and their parents failed at their job as 'parent'.
If they were not brought up to know and do better, this is their normal personalities, then, they are NOT nice, good kids and their parents failed to do their basic job as 'parents'.
The point being, they are NOT nice, good kids. They are either sociopaths with no empathy towards a fellow human in need... or they are just horrible kids who need to be punished for their crimes.
Hail, Hail!!!
but but but...they're really good at playing football!
Rape is the crime here, not alcohol. SHE did not play a role in this affair - it was the doing of the guys, and only them. Drinking is not a crime (though maybe here, we have underage drinking??). Raping is.
Drinking AND driving is a crime.
Yes, one has to learn about the effect of alcohol but putting such a crime on the victim because said victim has been drinking is just plain disgusting (whether the rape or your example of robbery).
Just because someone is stupid, doesn't mean people can commit crimes against them.
Like, yeah, I can be an idiot and staple 100 dollar bills to my jacket and sit outside a liquor store in the worst part of town at 3:00 A.M... it does not mean people can beat the shit out of me or point a gun at me. of course, i should expect the outcome... but, if I am incapacitated... it makes it difficult to make those rational decisions.
...
And what should have happened was at least one person who made contact with this situation should have manned up and did the right thing... that would be to call 9-1-1 an tell them there was a serverly intoxicated young woman who might need medical attention.
Better yet, taken the girl to either her home or an emergency room.
...
Also... if you cannot walk... cannot speak.... and cannot remember anything the next day. Best guess is GHB is probably involved.
Hail, Hail!!!
Why do men feel that there CAN be an excuse to violate a female? If someone gets drunk and then robbed it will not affect them the way a rape will affect someone. All the porn out there plays a big factor on how people feel about sex. Sex is supposed to be special, away to show love. Not a game that everyone can play even on those that do not want to play. People are just desensitize to the reality when it comes to sex.
Still... at some point you think that they would HAVE to feel empathy for the person they were doing this to, having their core moral beliefs kick in and say to themselves, 'This is wrong'.
The thing is... they are learning at a young age that they should not have believed in all of the hype about them.
...
Also, the bystanders are going to be facing a Grand Jury for their role in this. The role in which they preteneded it was okay.
Hail, Hail!!!
Agree with all of your points but booze can 100% do this to people. Seen it many times. Thankfully I dont (now and I didnt when I was that age) associate with sociopaths who find this sort of stuff acceptable/fun.
soo - is the lesson then to continue to get inebriated to the point of being unconscious and that's ok!?? ... is that what you would have learned here? ... again - i'm not condoning the actions or saying they were justified ... but if you don't understand that she played a part in this to her own detriment then we are missing the truth of it ...
also again ... if you do anything while you are inebriated - most people would put the blame on you ... if you go tell you friends you got blasted and passed out on the street and someone stole your wallet ... you think people are gonna say - awwwww, that's totally not your fault man? ... c'mon ...
as the minimum ...
they need to be in there till they turn 21. No sympathy from me and no they are not nice guys,
they are disgusting insensitive selfish stupid asses.
Nice guys would not do that to a girl, nice guys protect not hurt.
Same goes for all those in on this, I hope the law seeks to punish them as well.
I totally get where you are coming from. But, as humans, we are not supposed to be predatory animals who prey on the weak... or the incapacitated. We are supposed to care for them.
Yeah, if she got really drunk... and one loser criminal guy rapes her. It is still on the guy because you cannot rape (or steal someone's wallet), regardless of the state they are in.
The greater picture here is that there were other people involved. I would hope that i would have the courage to stop a friend from commiting a crime... but, i KNOW I would not participate in said crime, mostly on moral grounds... but, also the fact that I am way too pretty and have too nice of an ass to be in prison.
Hail, Hail!!!
No... the lesson here is that you do not rape a girl, humiliate her, film it, or participate in any other way, finding it the 'fun' thing to do, especially if the victim cannot 'fight' back. You learn that if you commit such an despicable act, you will be punished.
THAT is the primary lesson.
We do not know what these guys would have done if she had not been drunk. They may have drugged her, hit her, one or two attacking whilst others holding down? We don't know. RAPE is the issue.
Responsible intake of alcohol is another issue. Yes, one expose's oneself more to criminal acts perpetuated by others onto one's self but the ultimate responsibility lies with the cowardly criminal.
i agree with everything you are saying ... but just as we try and acknowledge what role some kid who got sent the pictures was ... we need to acknowledge the role of the victim ... she was so drunk, she could not even NOT consent ... ignoring that aspect of the affair I think is irresponsible and will not help in the overall picture ... it's not to put blame on her ... simply that she put herself in a very bad situation ... i can list a myriad of examples where this would apply ... it seems like with rape - we want to shield ourselves from this ... sitting here and blaming two kids and/or their friends is the easy thing to do ... what it won't do is end the troubling statistic that 1 in 5 women in the US will be raped ... it's a complicated issue and if our goal is to change that statistic for the better - we have to look at everything ...
i think everyone get's the primary lesson ... but does everyone get everything else? ... judging by the responses to me - maybe not ...
Exactly. The lesson to be learned is that you need to get your moral compass pointing in the right direction.
The right thing to do would have been to dump her off at her front door... ring the doorbell... and run like Hell.
The right thing for the bystanders would be to say something... or DO something. That 'something' is something other than pulling out your phone to take a picture to update your Facebook Status.
Hail, Hail!!!
"Men" do not feel there can be an excuse to violate a female. What a silly thing to say. I know what polaris was saying, and he's not making excuses. Rapists are the ones who feel there can be an excuse, not "men."
Disagree. I'd like to agree with you, but who's to say sex is only supposed to be special? Sex can be used for recreation, if done responsibly. I do not say that as a result of porn either and the theory that I may be desensitized. :?