The death/murder of people is simply not relateable to abortion. They can't be compared.
Well, that is your opinion. And if I thought that I'd probably be pro-choice too. But in my opinion, I don;t see hwo they are any different.
Mother nature doesn't even dictate that first term fetuses are a viable form of life. Half of them just miscarry. WAY more fetuses miscarry than are aborted. I mean, way WAAAAY more. So why aren't you people in constant mourning about all those deaths? And why aren't you out on the streets protesting the death of all of those people killed in American wars? ... And where are you when girls die from back-alley abortions, btw? Anti-abortionists sure do seem to have selective sensitivities.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Uh yes.. I think you misunderstood or I wasn;t clear enough.
I was saying I agree with him.
Yes, sorry, I misunderstood that.... although.... if you think abortion is murder, then don't you think that pro-choicers are pro-murder?
Well, honestly, I use to. But now I think they have a difference of opinion on what is life, and all that other jazz and I'm willing to admit that maybe I'm not right, even though I really think I am.
Mother nature doesn't even dictate that first term fetuses are a viable form of life. Half of them just miscarry. WAY more fetuses miscarry than are aborted. I mean, way WAAAAY more. So why aren't you people in constant mourning about all those deaths? And why aren't you out on the streets protesting the death of all of those people killed in American wars? ... And where are you when girls die from back-alley abortions, btw? Anti-abortionists sure do seem to have selective sensitivities.
Well, I can see that the constructive part of this conversation has ended. So, have a nice day.
Mother nature doesn't even dictate that first term fetuses are a viable form of life. Half of them just miscarry. WAY more fetuses miscarry than are aborted. I mean, way WAAAAY more. So why aren't you people in constant mourning about all those deaths? And why aren't you out on the streets protesting the death of all of those people killed in American wars? ... And where are you when girls die from back-alley abortions, btw? Anti-abortionists sure do seem to have selective sensitivities.
Well, I can see that the constructive part of this conversation has ended. So, have a nice day.
Really?? I think I made a perfectly reasonable point. :?
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I'm also not personally affected by any of the shootings in school, so by that logic I shouldn't care? That's just weird.
Care? No, I didn't say you shouldn't care. But why should you get to force your beliefs onto others? That's weird.
If someone thinks murder is ok, why does society force their beliefs?
And why should someone force their beliefs on the unborn child?
Really, it comes down to what is a life and if both are lives which one takes precedence. But this discussion will likely go no where.
IN the event of the situations mentioned" mother's life at risk, Rape, incest - this conversation becomes much more difficult to have and that is why I would not vote to change abortion in those cases. I still think it's a life so rape and incest are some question marks for me, but the pain/suffering/etc that those situations place on the mother of the child make it difficult to distinguish (in my mind) which life takes precedence.
Some good comments on this thread though. It really bothers me when people discount the other sides point of view 100%. It also bothers me that people think if you are against abortion then you must be a religious nutjob.
How does society force its beliefs on people, especially in regards to abortion? No one is forcing you to get an abortion. You aren't required to condone it by participating in getting one. If you're a doctor you are not required to work at a facility that provides abortion services. What is being stated is that we (the collective) think it's wrong and no one should be given an abortion because we (the collective) think it's wrong.
And by the way, I don't think that just because someone opposes abortion that they are a religious nutjob. I don't know anyone that thinks abortions are a good idea just that people that are usually labeled pro-choice don't think it is their place to deny a woman that option.
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
No doubt...but I like to UNDERSTAND why someone thinks differently than I do and cincy has expressed his side pretty well. That's all I really want - not to change anyone's mind - not that it would happen anyway
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
Care? No, I didn't say you shouldn't care. But why should you get to force your beliefs onto others? That's weird.
If someone thinks murder is ok, why does society force their beliefs?
And why should someone force their beliefs on the unborn child?
Really, it comes down to what is a life and if both are lives which one takes precedence. But this discussion will likely go no where.
IN the event of the situations mentioned" mother's life at risk, Rape, incest - this conversation becomes much more difficult to have and that is why I would not vote to change abortion in those cases. I still think it's a life so rape and incest are some question marks for me, but the pain/suffering/etc that those situations place on the mother of the child make it difficult to distinguish (in my mind) which life takes precedence.
Some good comments on this thread though. It really bothers me when people discount the other sides point of view 100%. It also bothers me that people think if you are against abortion then you must be a religious nutjob.
How does society force its beliefs on people, especially in regards to abortion? No one is forcing you to get an abortion. You aren't required to condone it by participating in getting one. If you're a doctor you are not required to work at a facility that provides abortion services. What is being stated is that we (the collective) think it's wrong and no one should be given an abortion because we (the collective) think it's wrong.
And by the way, I don't think that just because someone opposes abortion that they are a religious nutjob. I don't know anyone that thinks abortions are a good idea just that people that are usually labeled pro-choice don't think it is their place to deny a woman that option.
I don't think anyone against abortion is a religious nut job (necessarily) either. I have NO problem with people who are simply against abortion - I have a problem with those who want to get rid of the option for those who want it. And those who both are against it and/or want to get rid of that option for everyone have really inconsistent behavior and beliefs as far as I can tell, as my supposedly nonconstructive post above mentions.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
No doubt...but I like to UNDERSTAND why someone thinks differently than I do and cincy has expressed his side pretty well. That's all I really want - not to change anyone's mind - not that it would happen anyway
definitely ... it's just that if someone believes life begins at conception and that abortion is murder ... well, there really isn't any ground to have a discussion ... it's not to say those that believe that are wrong just simply that it pretty much concludes any hope of a discussion ...
oh ... and for sure ... as long as anyone who is pro-life isn't going around killing/stalking pro choice people or women who've had abortions ... i don't really have any issue ... although if they do manage to influence the political discourse and abortions become outlawed ... well, that's a different story altogether ...
Not my nominee yet studying up on Gary Johnson....
now I have three to choose from.
Romney's not worried about it, why would you be,
being in favor of our President?
It's Romney's choice and he still could change his mind
but I think saying he doesn't support the same views, would not with policy,
sends the right message for me.
I also think Romney knows where he is coming from, defending the new life
even in the case of rape.
The other message for me taken to heart is ...
let people share their views, don't judge or abandon them for them,
it's opinions and kind of like a window to their soul at any given moment.
defending the new life while in the same breath wanting to cut programs to help that kid once it is born.
i'm sorry, but to make a woman carry the child of a rapist is just plain wrong.
funny how you on the right are all about "get government out of my life" and "protecting the rights of the unborn", but what about the rights of the living, out of the womb, mother? why would rights of a fetus trump the rights of the woman carrying it?? this is the very definition of having government in your life.
I agree
I agree
it does not
I'm not on the right when it comes to abortion I am pro choice
but I very much understand the need to protect new life.
No doubt...but I like to UNDERSTAND why someone thinks differently than I do and cincy has expressed his side pretty well. That's all I really want - not to change anyone's mind - not that it would happen anyway
Sometimes it happens; I know people who have changed their minds about very profound issues. I've changed my own mind about certain things myself (not on this issue, but others... I actually used to be a lot more right-thinking in terms of economic policy and some other issues, for instance) ... All I hope for is that those who think that abortions should be ILLEGAL would rethink their position. It really really bothers me that some people think it shouldn't be a choice that women can make about their own bodies if they need to. I don't think that debate is futile at all, and therefore, ANY argument relating to abortion isn't futile, since it is all relevant to how people approach the subject.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Not my nominee yet studying up on Gary Johnson....
now I have three to choose from.
Romney's not worried about it, why would you be,
being in favor of our President?
It's Romney's choice and he still could change his mind
but I think saying he doesn't support the same views, would not with policy,
sends the right message for me.
I also think Romney knows where he is coming from, defending the new life
even in the case of rape.
The other message for me taken to heart is ...
let people share their views, don't judge or abandon them for them,
it's opinions and kind of like a window to their soul at any given moment.
defending the new life while in the same breath wanting to cut programs to help that kid once it is born.
i'm sorry, but to make a woman carry the child of a rapist is just plain wrong.
funny how you on the right are all about "get government out of my life" and "protecting the rights of the unborn", but what about the rights of the living, out of the womb, mother? why would rights of a fetus trump the rights of the woman carrying it?? this is the very definition of having government in your life.
agree... as a male it's hard to imagine but I could imagine that the idea of carrying an unborn baby that was the result of a rape would be the most horrible thing ever.. I would feel for the baby, the mother and everyone involved. Furthermore, the rapist (if not convicted/charged) could seek to get parental rights to this kid!!! I couldn't imagine of a more fucked up situation - having custody of your kid sharing it with the rapist.
it's ridiculous to think ANY of these christian right politicians would appreciate their daughter or wife having a baby if it meant ANY chance that the rapist would have rights to that baby. They need to look at the world and show some empathy for once. God wouldn't have intended the rapist to raise a kid let alone hijack someone's DNA without permission.
Many would and do suggest adoption as an alternative to abortion.
Their empathy is for the other victim of rape...
the new life. They have you and countless others defending the right to end it.
Not my nominee yet studying up on Gary Johnson....
now I have three to choose from.
Romney's not worried about it, why would you be,
being in favor of our President?
It's Romney's choice and he still could change his mind
but I think saying he doesn't support the same views, would not with policy,
sends the right message for me.
I also think Romney knows where he is coming from, defending the new life
even in the case of rape.
The other message for me taken to heart is ...
let people share their views, don't judge or abandon them for them,
it's opinions and kind of like a window to their soul at any given moment.
defending the new life while in the same breath wanting to cut programs to help that kid once it is born.
i'm sorry, but to make a woman carry the child of a rapist is just plain wrong.
funny how you on the right are all about "get government out of my life" and "protecting the rights of the unborn", but what about the rights of the living, out of the womb, mother? why would rights of a fetus trump the rights of the woman carrying it?? this is the very definition of having government in your life.
I agree
I agree
it does not
I'm not on the right when it comes to abortion I am pro choice
but I very much understand the need too protect new life.
according to proposed republican right to life/anti abortion legislation, and these clowns such as akin, the guy in this thread, paul ryan, et al, the rights of a fetus do in fact trump the rights of the woman. i am not just saying it. read the bills for yourself.
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway
Not my nominee yet studying up on Gary Johnson....
now I have three to choose from.
Romney's not worried about it, why would you be,
being in favor of our President?
It's Romney's choice and he still could change his mind
but I think saying he doesn't support the same views, would not with policy,
sends the right message for me.
I also think Romney knows where he is coming from, defending the new life
even in the case of rape.
The other message for me taken to heart is ...
let people share their views, don't judge or abandon them for them,
it's opinions and kind of like a window to their soul at any given moment.
defending the new life while in the same breath wanting to cut programs to help that kid once it is born.
i'm sorry, but to make a woman carry the child of a rapist is just plain wrong.
funny how you on the right are all about "get government out of my life" and "protecting the rights of the unborn", but what about the rights of the living, out of the womb, mother? why would rights of a fetus trump the rights of the woman carrying it?? this is the very definition of having government in your life.
This is something I really don't understand. First, how can you force your own moral and religious beliefs about abortion on another person? How are you personally affected if a woman you don't even know has an abortion? Second, if you live by those moral convictions, how can you support the abandonment of children after they are born? If you truly believe that life is sacred, why do we see so many children abandoned and abusend? Neglected and mistreated? Where is the outrage about children in high school that read on a 2nd grade level? It seems far easier to give lip service to the sacredness of life but then conveniently dismiss the child once it actually arrives.
Are you saying 'me' when you say 'you' ?
Cause that would be off base... I'm pro choice.
I pride myself though on trying to see and feel both sides of issues.
I will say that those defending new life, the right to live, are passionate.
It hasn't worked too well for them though forcing their beliefs on others
has it? Abortion is legal with millons of lives taken.
As far as how it affects them personally? How does it effect you when someone dies?
The unborn is a gift, innocent life.
Your other questions seem to point a finger at leaders letting down children
once they are here. Who can argue that? And I'm learning quite a bit
about the apathy in our social services which is a whole other stupid story.
I'm not on the right when it comes to abortion I am pro choice
but I very much understand the need too protect new life.
according to proposed republican right to life/anti abortion legislation, and these clowns such as akin, the guy in this thread, paul ryan, et al, the rights of a fetus do in fact trump the rights of the woman. i am not just saying it. read the bills for yourself.
Yes ,why I would not be for such legislation. Are you worried or fear mongering again?
I think even Mitt said don't worry about it. Common sense.
This too hot topic will never end in making abortion illegal. Nor will
legislators ever force a woman to carry a child.
Now they might force them to have abortions though :twisted:
how awful that will be.
Yes ,why I would not be for such legislation. Are you worried or fear mongering again?
I think even Mitt said don't worry about it. Common sense.
This too hot topic will never end in making abortion illegal. Nor will
legislators ever force a woman to carry a child.
Now they might force them to have abortions though :twisted:
how awful that will be.
no pandora, mitt has stated that roe v wade is settled law. then he said he will not support overturning roe v wade. then his campaign came out and apologized and said that he WOULD support overturning roe v. wade and he would sign any law doing so. so which is it?
you have stated on here numerous times that you have had an abortion. nobody holds that against you and frankly i admire your candor on the topic. but how would you be with the next generation of women not having the right to make that same choice? that is what we are dealing with. the republican party platform ratified at the recent convention says as such. if you don't believe me you can look up the platform. i posted it on this forum 2 weeks ago or so.
i don't know how any women in this country could even entertain the notion of voting republican on a state or federal level since the party went hard right on the issue.
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway
Yes ,why I would not be for such legislation. Are you worried or fear mongering again?
I think even Mitt said don't worry about it. Common sense.
This too hot topic will never end in making abortion illegal. Nor will
legislators ever force a woman to carry a child.
Now they might force them to have abortions though :twisted:
how awful that will be.
no pandora, mitt has stated that roe v wade is settled law. then he said he will not support overturning roe v wade. then his campaign came out and apologized and said that he WOULD support overturning roe v. wade and he would sign any law doing so. so which is it?
you have stated on here numerous times that you have had an abortion. nobody holds that against you and frankly i admire your candor on the topic. but how would you be with the next generation of women not having the right to make that same choice? that is what we are dealing with. the republican party platform ratified at the recent convention says as such. if you don't believe me you can look up the platform. i posted it on this forum 2 weeks ago or so.
I don't know how any women in this country could even entertain the notion of voting republican on a state or federal level since the party went hard right on the issue.
I am pro choice so of course that means I am against removing that right to choose.
It's never going to happen platform or not. The right to choose will remain.
I can see many women voting Republican though for their core beliefs.
Some being against abortion some being conservative on other issues.
The basic thing I don't get... How is God even in this equation?
Example: If God DID intend this pregnancy to happen... doesn't that mean that God is also involved with setting up the rape scenario?
...
If so... doesn't that make God... well, kind of an asshole?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
After reading some of your discussion I think one thing is clear: It is totally ludicrous for an American federal politician to act as though they think all life is sacred, and like they 100% stick to their guns on that principle. I`m surprised any of them even bring it up, since the hypocrisy is so glaring.
I think it is defending new life the other innocent victim of rape.
That's great. Differentiating "new life" and all other life... or the innocence of a fetus vs the innocence of innocent civilians. That makes no sense, and is a totally unjustifiable distinction. I also think that putting the life of a fetus - one that isn't even considered viable in nature until after 3 months, if the rate of miscarriages means anything - before the life of walking, talking human beings with friends and families is sickening beyond measure. Not to mention dictating to women what they have inside their bodies, and it's mostly men trying to push through the laws. It boggles my mind, the nerve of these assholes.
This why I am pro choice so women's lives are not endangered and they themselves must make the decision to carry a child.
Of course, as with most pro choice people here on the board,
I would like to see more choosing life, lower the rate we are murdering unborn life.
In the case of rape, I would hope the life be given a chance
if at all possible, as my sister did.
We have loved a beautiful child, young woman, grown woman
for almost 44 years next month.
Not to mention her four beautiful children.
This was the blessing that came to all of us.
I would like to see more choosing to carry and give life unselfishly,
give to those wanting and needing to parent in their lives for fulfillment.
The beauty of love that grows and gives life meaning. There is nothing like
a child in your life to learn the most valuable things.
It's very hard to stay "me me me" once you are a parent.
Comments
Well, that is your opinion. And if I thought that I'd probably be pro-choice too. But in my opinion, I don;t see hwo they are any different.
Uh yes.. I think you misunderstood or I wasn;t clear enough.
I was saying I agree with him.
Well, honestly, I use to. But now I think they have a difference of opinion on what is life, and all that other jazz and I'm willing to admit that maybe I'm not right, even though I really think I am.
Well, I can see that the constructive part of this conversation has ended. So, have a nice day.
How does society force its beliefs on people, especially in regards to abortion? No one is forcing you to get an abortion. You aren't required to condone it by participating in getting one. If you're a doctor you are not required to work at a facility that provides abortion services. What is being stated is that we (the collective) think it's wrong and no one should be given an abortion because we (the collective) think it's wrong.
And by the way, I don't think that just because someone opposes abortion that they are a religious nutjob. I don't know anyone that thinks abortions are a good idea just that people that are usually labeled pro-choice don't think it is their place to deny a woman that option.
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
the debate on abortion ...
No doubt...but I like to UNDERSTAND why someone thinks differently than I do and cincy has expressed his side pretty well. That's all I really want - not to change anyone's mind - not that it would happen anyway
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
definitely ... it's just that if someone believes life begins at conception and that abortion is murder ... well, there really isn't any ground to have a discussion ... it's not to say those that believe that are wrong just simply that it pretty much concludes any hope of a discussion ...
oh ... and for sure ... as long as anyone who is pro-life isn't going around killing/stalking pro choice people or women who've had abortions ... i don't really have any issue ... although if they do manage to influence the political discourse and abortions become outlawed ... well, that's a different story altogether ...
I agree
it does not
I'm not on the right when it comes to abortion I am pro choice
but I very much understand the need to protect new life.
Their empathy is for the other victim of rape...
the new life. They have you and countless others defending the right to end it.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Cause that would be off base... I'm pro choice.
I pride myself though on trying to see and feel both sides of issues.
I will say that those defending new life, the right to live, are passionate.
It hasn't worked too well for them though forcing their beliefs on others
has it? Abortion is legal with millons of lives taken.
As far as how it affects them personally? How does it effect you when someone dies?
The unborn is a gift, innocent life.
Your other questions seem to point a finger at leaders letting down children
once they are here. Who can argue that? And I'm learning quite a bit
about the apathy in our social services which is a whole other stupid story.
I think even Mitt said don't worry about it. Common sense.
This too hot topic will never end in making abortion illegal. Nor will
legislators ever force a woman to carry a child.
Now they might force them to have abortions though :twisted:
how awful that will be.
no pandora, mitt has stated that roe v wade is settled law. then he said he will not support overturning roe v wade. then his campaign came out and apologized and said that he WOULD support overturning roe v. wade and he would sign any law doing so. so which is it?
you have stated on here numerous times that you have had an abortion. nobody holds that against you and frankly i admire your candor on the topic. but how would you be with the next generation of women not having the right to make that same choice? that is what we are dealing with. the republican party platform ratified at the recent convention says as such. if you don't believe me you can look up the platform. i posted it on this forum 2 weeks ago or so.
i don't know how any women in this country could even entertain the notion of voting republican on a state or federal level since the party went hard right on the issue.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
who am I?
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
It's never going to happen platform or not. The right to choose will remain.
I can see many women voting Republican though for their core beliefs.
Some being against abortion some being conservative on other issues.
God? wait you don't believe that can't be it...
Me? :? no that can't be it I'm pro-choice...
stumped I am.
Riddle:
what's that old tired song we keep hearing?
sounds like Grudge
Example: If God DID intend this pregnancy to happen... doesn't that mean that God is also involved with setting up the rape scenario?
...
If so... doesn't that make God... well, kind of an asshole?
Hail, Hail!!!
must make the decision to carry a child.
Of course, as with most pro choice people here on the board,
I would like to see more choosing life, lower the rate we are murdering unborn life.
In the case of rape, I would hope the life be given a chance
if at all possible, as my sister did.
We have loved a beautiful child, young woman, grown woman
for almost 44 years next month.
Not to mention her four beautiful children.
This was the blessing that came to all of us.
I would like to see more choosing to carry and give life unselfishly,
give to those wanting and needing to parent in their lives for fulfillment.
The beauty of love that grows and gives life meaning. There is nothing like
a child in your life to learn the most valuable things.
It's very hard to stay "me me me" once you are a parent.
Gollum?
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
I put this in another thread but this was a great read about other religious people
on the subject.
Its good to see this perspective too not always the so extreme
most of us want to use and hear about good common sense in our lives.
Romney (didn't you see Gimme's post above?). It's not always about you.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014