2018-2019 NHL Regular Season

15681011196

Comments

  • MayDay10MayDay10 Posts: 9,626
    Bettman is an extension of Ed Snider, Jeremy Jacobs, and the rest of the Board of Governors.

    He is their greaseman/politician.

    That is also why the TV rights went to Snider's company
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    lukin2006 wrote:
    I agree the owners want protection from themselves...no doubt...but maybe some of these players like Suter, Weber and Parisse could show a little loyalty to teams that drafted spent $$$ on there development, etc. I agree with the owners not wanting to allow free agency until the 10 year mark.

    I think if people check the numbers they'll see the game has grown leaps and bounds under his leadership, again no Bettman fan, but he takes his orders from the owners, i'm pretty sure he doesn't tell them what to do.


    The loyalty thing is a bunch of horseshit. If there's a team out there willing to pay you a ton more money, you'd be a fool not to take it. 10 year mak for free agency is pretty ridiculous if you ask me. To not be a free agent until 28-29 years old at the earliest is a bit much.

    The game has definitely grown, but this will be the 3rd work stoppage under Bettman. Sure, he takes his orders from the owners but I don't believe for one second that he has no influence at all.

    sure he has influence...bottom line is that the owners still hold the vote...he has no vote, he presents his case to the owners...they either back him or they don't.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    MayDay10 wrote:
    That is a terrible idea, IMO.



    I believe we will see a Toronto II, Seattle, and Quebec City. I think there will be 1 more relocation and 2 expansion

    Doubt you'll see another team in Toronto...the leafs are territorial...I think they could pretty much demand whatever fee they want from any team wanting to set up shop within their territory.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • drivingrldrivingrl Posts: 1,445
    lukin2006 wrote:
    MayDay10 wrote:
    That is a terrible idea, IMO.



    I believe we will see a Toronto II, Seattle, and Quebec City. I think there will be 1 more relocation and 2 expansion

    Doubt you'll see another team in Toronto...the leafs are territorial...I think they could pretty much demand whatever fee they want from any team wanting to set up shop within their territory.

    Why would the NHL move the southern/western teams? If the southern/western teams move, so do the television markets. That means those hockey fans in the south (myself included) wouldn't be able to see any games. That would be a very quick way to cut off a big chunk of fan base, I would think.
    drivingrl: "Will I ever get to meet Gwen Stefani?"
    kevinbeetle: "Yes. When her career washes up and her and Gavin move to Galveston, you will meet her at Hot Topic shopping for a Japanese cheerleader outfit.

    Next!"
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    drivingrl wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    MayDay10 wrote:
    That is a terrible idea, IMO.



    I believe we will see a Toronto II, Seattle, and Quebec City. I think there will be 1 more relocation and 2 expansion

    Doubt you'll see another team in Toronto...the leafs are territorial...I think they could pretty much demand whatever fee they want from any team wanting to set up shop within their territory.

    Why would the NHL move the southern/western teams? If the southern/western teams move, so do the television markets. That means those hockey fans in the south (myself included) wouldn't be able to see any games. That would be a very quick way to cut off a big chunk of fan base, I would think.

    The only place most people in the south want to see ice is in their drinks ;).
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • drivingrldrivingrl Posts: 1,445
    lukin2006 wrote:
    The only place most people in the south want to see ice is in their drinks ;).

    While I realize you're trying to be cute, I would like you to know that as a hockey fan in the south, I am DYING knowing there might not be a hockey season. I'm not joking.

    I hate football, I hate baseball, I HATE NASCAR... I'm dying. So please have some pity on me. Those of you in the north have established college hockey leagues. We're not so lucky. :(
    drivingrl: "Will I ever get to meet Gwen Stefani?"
    kevinbeetle: "Yes. When her career washes up and her and Gavin move to Galveston, you will meet her at Hot Topic shopping for a Japanese cheerleader outfit.

    Next!"
  • MayDay10MayDay10 Posts: 9,626
    I dont want to see any team relocated/folded.





    Cant wait to go see the Niagara IceDogs vs the Erie Otters next Thursday!
  • drivingrl wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    MayDay10 wrote:
    That is a terrible idea, IMO.



    I believe we will see a Toronto II, Seattle, and Quebec City. I think there will be 1 more relocation and 2 expansion

    Doubt you'll see another team in Toronto...the leafs are territorial...I think they could pretty much demand whatever fee they want from any team wanting to set up shop within their territory.

    Why would the NHL move the southern/western teams? If the southern/western teams move, so do the television markets. That means those hockey fans in the south (myself included) wouldn't be able to see any games. That would be a very quick way to cut off a big chunk of fan base, I would think.

    That is the key... Yes, the southern markets don't get good ratings (compared to traditional US hockey markets), but if your broadcast partner pulls games from entire large TV markets, it effects the marketability of the game to advertisers.
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    drivingrl wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    The only place most people in the south want to see ice is in their drinks ;).

    While I realize you're trying to be cute, I would like you to know that as a hockey fan in the south, I am DYING knowing there might not be a hockey season. I'm not joking.

    I hate football, I hate baseball, I HATE NASCAR... I'm dying. So please have some pity on me. Those of you in the north have established college hockey leagues. We're not so lucky. :(

    don't watch college hockey...it's quite boring...here in Canada we have amazing junior hockey leagues. Hockey will be back by Christmas or shortly after and I really don't get overly interested until play off time and I'm pretty sure it'll be back by then.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • drivingrldrivingrl Posts: 1,445
    lukin2006 wrote:
    don't watch college hockey...it's quite boring...here in Canada we have amazing junior hockey leagues. Hockey will be back by Christmas or shortly after and I really don't get overly interested until play off time and I'm pretty sure it'll be back by then.

    :fp: Yes, it must be nice. :roll:
    drivingrl: "Will I ever get to meet Gwen Stefani?"
    kevinbeetle: "Yes. When her career washes up and her and Gavin move to Galveston, you will meet her at Hot Topic shopping for a Japanese cheerleader outfit.

    Next!"
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    drivingrl wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    don't watch college hockey...it's quite boring...here in Canada we have amazing junior hockey leagues. Hockey will be back by Christmas or shortly after and I really don't get overly interested until play off time and I'm pretty sure it'll be back by then.

    :fp: Yes, it must be nice. :roll:

    I'm right across from Detroit and haven't been to an game their in years...go to a few junior hockey games a year...its good hockey and way better value for the buck.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • PJFAN13PJFAN13 Posts: 1,416
    What a god damn shame...
    The NHL struggles for an audience as is, should they shut down the sport for the second time in eight years, it could be in even bigger trouble to generate ratings when it comes back.
    And the product is sooooo good right now, better than it has been in years!
    As a NYR fan, this disappoints me beyond belief. So close last year, added some pieces, trimmed the fat and now we are less than two days away from a shut down.
    IF this happens, Bettman should be canned, no? A total of 3 work stoppages under his watch is just plain unacceptable.
    And as usual, the rich players and richer owners will make due. Its the fans, bars, restauarants, etc that will pay.
    Jeez louise this sux...
    GET A DEAL DONE!!!!
    11.30.93~10.2.96~9.13.98~9.1.00~8.25.00~7.3.03~7.5.03
    7.9.03~9.28.04~10.1.05~5.12.06~5.13.06~5.27.06~5.28.06
    8.5.08(EV)~10.9.09~5.21.10~6.20.11(EV)~7.5.11(EV)~7.9.11(EV)
    11.21.13~8.27.16(EV)~11.14.16(TOTD)
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,552
    yeah ... there is a lot of parity in this league right now ... it's a real shame they are willing to risk all the progress they made in the last few years ...
  • RygarRygar Posts: 8,502
    On the bright side at least that deals with Gomez....
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    Rygar wrote:
    On the bright side at least that deals with Gomez....

    Thats a big part of the problem with the NHL...he's never been more than average player and and maybe a little above making that kind of money and the league is loaded with guys being paid way more than their worth.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • DS1119DS1119 Posts: 33,497
    lukin2006 wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    Yeah he controls the owners...got proof.

    well ... considering the teams that are primarily losing money are his idea ... and that instead of moving phoenix to a better market - he made the league buy the franchise to continue this fiasco ... i'd say he controls the owners ...

    where they going to move Phoenix to...the NHL market is saturated...I know everyone is in love with Winnipeg and they sell out and all...but I doubt staying 18 million below the cap will allow them to be competitive and will the sell out continue once the novelty wears off.

    The owners were in love with the expansion fee they were receiving...don't blame the salesman (Bettman) if your people didn't do their homework before putting teams in those markets...same as those owners who paid the fee...did they not put a business plan in place.


    The Phoenix situation blows my mind. They have an absolutley wonderful rink, they have a very competitive team, a lot of people from Canada live in that area during the winter months and a shit ton of northeasterners have moved there. I just don't get why it doesn't work. :fp:
    " I am sorry I am a Yankee fan because the Tigers are just better"

    I saw the band once on TV

    I am an angry black man
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,552
    DS1119 wrote:
    The Phoenix situation blows my mind. They have an absolutley wonderful rink, they have a very competitive team, a lot of people from Canada live in that area during the winter months and a shit ton of northeasterners have moved there. I just don't get why it doesn't work. :fp:

    the hockey model is all about season ticket holders and suites ... it's one thing to have regular joes going but its another to fill your arena up with corporate boxes ...
  • DS1119DS1119 Posts: 33,497
    polaris_x wrote:
    DS1119 wrote:
    The Phoenix situation blows my mind. They have an absolutley wonderful rink, they have a very competitive team, a lot of people from Canada live in that area during the winter months and a shit ton of northeasterners have moved there. I just don't get why it doesn't work. :fp:

    the hockey model is all about season ticket holders and suites ... it's one thing to have regular joes going but its another to fill your arena up with corporate boxes ...


    It's a fun place and if anyone here that's a hockey fan ever gets a chance I recommend seeing a game there.

    ABout the season ticket or suite situations I have no idea how well they do.
    " I am sorry I am a Yankee fan because the Tigers are just better"

    I saw the band once on TV

    I am an angry black man
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    DS1119 wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:
    DS1119 wrote:
    The Phoenix situation blows my mind. They have an absolutley wonderful rink, they have a very competitive team, a lot of people from Canada live in that area during the winter months and a shit ton of northeasterners have moved there. I just don't get why it doesn't work. :fp:

    the hockey model is all about season ticket holders and suites ... it's one thing to have regular joes going but its another to fill your arena up with corporate boxes ...


    It's a fun place and if anyone here that's a hockey fan ever gets a chance I recommend seeing a game there.

    ABout the season ticket or suite situations I have no idea how well they do.

    how much do they charge per ticket on average? and maybe Canadians and Northern Americans don't care about hockey while on vacation or Jack Kent Cooke was right when told that there was 300 000 Canadians living within a 3 hour drive of Los Angeles " Now I know why they left Canada: they hate hockey!"
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • DS1119DS1119 Posts: 33,497
    lukin2006 wrote:
    how much do they charge per ticket on average? and maybe Canadians and Northern Americans don't care about hockey while on vacation or Jack Kent Cooke was right when told that there was 300 000 Canadians living within a 3 hour drive of Los Angeles " Now I know why they left Canada: they hate hockey!"


    Average price not too sure. I've paid as much as 160 per which put me next to the Coyotes bench and as little as 60 something which put me in the second tier. I'm sure they have some relatively cheap tickets and ticket packages. I laughed with the comment about the 300, 000 Canadians. :lol:
    " I am sorry I am a Yankee fan because the Tigers are just better"

    I saw the band once on TV

    I am an angry black man
  • DS1119 wrote:
    The Phoenix situation blows my mind. They have an absolutley wonderful rink, they have a very competitive team, a lot of people from Canada live in that area during the winter months and a shit ton of northeasterners have moved there. I just don't get why it doesn't work. :fp:

    I don't find it so hard to believe that a business model Reggie Dunlop made up to bullshit his teammates doesn't work in real life. Especially considering that most snowbirds are retirees, and you can't really count on retirees to fill your stadium on a nightly basis.
    "See a broad to get dat booty yak 'em, leg 'er down, a smack 'em yak 'em!"
  • PJFAN13PJFAN13 Posts: 1,416
    DS1119 wrote:
    The Phoenix situation blows my mind. They have an absolutley wonderful rink, they have a very competitive team, a lot of people from Canada live in that area during the winter months and a shit ton of northeasterners have moved there. I just don't get why it doesn't work. :fp:

    The rink is in GLENDALE, 35+ miles from Gilbert, Chandler, etc where most of the population lives...its a good 1 hr drive during workweek...its 15 miles, but 30 min drive (with no traffic) from Phoenix, proper. Traffic and infrastructure is jacked up there...really, its 1 hr drive for most 30 mile transists...

    The rink is amazing, the concessions are affordable and the area where the rink is is awesome - bars, restaurants, etc...

    The team has built a winner as of late, but Ice Hockey in PHX is not built in the culture. Kids grow up playing baseball, soccer and football in AZ - not ice hockey. The area has done a great job of building beautiful rinks and getting local stars to coach, do clinics etc, but its not ingrained in the culture.

    Very sad. The fans who are die-hard there deserve this club and I hope it stays, but its not like growing up back east, deck hockey, street hockey, frozen ponds = kids play pickup hockey. Just not the case in AZ. Impossible to do with the climate. I lived there for 5 years, when my NYR team came in they jacked the price up on the tickets because it was a "premier" game - same with DET, TOR and CHI...lots of transient fans of other teams, lack of championship hockey culture in AZ and businesses who won't fill the lux boxes makes it a tough sell...
    11.30.93~10.2.96~9.13.98~9.1.00~8.25.00~7.3.03~7.5.03
    7.9.03~9.28.04~10.1.05~5.12.06~5.13.06~5.27.06~5.28.06
    8.5.08(EV)~10.9.09~5.21.10~6.20.11(EV)~7.5.11(EV)~7.9.11(EV)
    11.21.13~8.27.16(EV)~11.14.16(TOTD)
  • DS1119DS1119 Posts: 33,497
    PJFAN13 wrote:
    DS1119 wrote:
    The Phoenix situation blows my mind. They have an absolutley wonderful rink, they have a very competitive team, a lot of people from Canada live in that area during the winter months and a shit ton of northeasterners have moved there. I just don't get why it doesn't work. :fp:

    The rink is in GLENDALE, 35+ miles from Gilbert, Chandler, etc where most of the population lives...its a good 1 hr drive during workweek...its 15 miles, but 30 min drive (with no traffic) from Phoenix, proper. Traffic and infrastructure is jacked up there...really, its 1 hr drive for most 30 mile transists...

    The rink is amazing, the concessions are affordable and the area where the rink is is awesome - bars, restaurants, etc...

    The team has built a winner as of late, but Ice Hockey in PHX is not built in the culture. Kids grow up playing baseball, soccer and football in AZ - not ice hockey. The area has done a great job of building beautiful rinks and getting local stars to coach, do clinics etc, but its not ingrained in the culture.

    Very sad. The fans who are die-hard there deserve this club and I hope it stays, but its not like growing up back east, deck hockey, street hockey, frozen ponds = kids play pickup hockey. Just not the case in AZ. Impossible to do with the climate. I lived there for 5 years, when my NYR team came in they jacked the price up on the tickets because it was a "premier" game - same with DET, TOR and CHI...lots of transient fans of other teams, lack of championship hockey culture in AZ and businesses who won't fill the lux boxes makes it a tough sell...

    All valid points. I do wish they built the arena around Chase but it is what it is. now.
    " I am sorry I am a Yankee fan because the Tigers are just better"

    I saw the band once on TV

    I am an angry black man
  • DS1119DS1119 Posts: 33,497
    DS1119 wrote:
    The Phoenix situation blows my mind. They have an absolutley wonderful rink, they have a very competitive team, a lot of people from Canada live in that area during the winter months and a shit ton of northeasterners have moved there. I just don't get why it doesn't work. :fp:

    I don't find it so hard to believe that a business model Reggie Dunlop made up to bullshit his teammates doesn't work in real life. Especially considering that most snowbirds are retirees, and you can't really count on retirees to fill your stadium on a nightly basis.


    Funny, but not entirely true. :lol:
    " I am sorry I am a Yankee fan because the Tigers are just better"

    I saw the band once on TV

    I am an angry black man
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    DS1119 wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    how much do they charge per ticket on average? and maybe Canadians and Northern Americans don't care about hockey while on vacation or Jack Kent Cooke was right when told that there was 300 000 Canadians living within a 3 hour drive of Los Angeles " Now I know why they left Canada: they hate hockey!"


    Average price not too sure. I've paid as much as 160 per which put me next to the Coyotes bench and as little as 60 something which put me in the second tier. I'm sure they have some relatively cheap tickets and ticket packages. I laughed with the comment about the 300, 000 Canadians. :lol:

    I kind of agree with that statement...to a point. I've vacationed in the southern states, west coast and I've never had an urge to go to a hockey game...

    160 per game seem extreme...60 ain't bad though.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    I just wonder how long before the NHL starts looking at ownership in Quebec or Seattle?
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • PJFAN13 wrote:
    DS1119 wrote:
    The Phoenix situation blows my mind. They have an absolutley wonderful rink, they have a very competitive team, a lot of people from Canada live in that area during the winter months and a shit ton of northeasterners have moved there. I just don't get why it doesn't work. :fp:

    The rink is in GLENDALE, 35+ miles from Gilbert, Chandler, etc where most of the population lives...its a good 1 hr drive during workweek...its 15 miles, but 30 min drive (with no traffic) from Phoenix, proper. Traffic and infrastructure is jacked up there...really, its 1 hr drive for most 30 mile transists...

    The rink is amazing, the concessions are affordable and the area where the rink is is awesome - bars, restaurants, etc...

    The team has built a winner as of late, but Ice Hockey in PHX is not built in the culture. Kids grow up playing baseball, soccer and football in AZ - not ice hockey. The area has done a great job of building beautiful rinks and getting local stars to coach, do clinics etc, but its not ingrained in the culture.

    Very sad. The fans who are die-hard there deserve this club and I hope it stays, but its not like growing up back east, deck hockey, street hockey, frozen ponds = kids play pickup hockey. Just not the case in AZ. Impossible to do with the climate. I lived there for 5 years, when my NYR team came in they jacked the price up on the tickets because it was a "premier" game - same with DET, TOR and CHI...lots of transient fans of other teams, lack of championship hockey culture in AZ and businesses who won't fill the lux boxes makes it a tough sell...

    That is the key, the location of the arena was a horrible idea. That distance is a killer. I grew up about an hour east of Pittsburgh, and even if we had the money, we couldn't buy season tickets. We went to a few Penguins games a year, and it involved my dad getting out of work a little early, rushing downtown, getting home after 11PM, and all that stuff. Not really doable 40 times a year, especially for people with families.

    And there are a lot of Northeastern US & Canada transplants there, but they don't buy season tickets. They go to games if/when their Maple Leafs, Bruins, Rangers, etc play there. It's like really any sports teams in Florida - tough to sell season tickets.
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • lukin2006 wrote:
    I just wonder how long before the NHL starts looking at ownership in Quebec or Seattle?

    I think Seattle is interesting. I don't know enough about Quebec City, but Seattle has the corporate climate for a team to be successful. It's not just about rabid fans, it's more about corporate money, and a concrete plan.

    Look at Winnipeg, it took them a while, but they had a good arena, and spent years cultivating business support, and had good management in place.
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • DS1119DS1119 Posts: 33,497
    lukin2006 wrote:
    I just wonder how long before the NHL starts looking at ownership in Quebec or Seattle?



    Seattle I could see happening but I don't think it will. It's just that if the NHL wants to continue growing it's "prouduct" I don't really see the move back to Canada as the answer. I look at it this way. If I'm in Dallas...Dallas native...casual sports fan...and I'm looking for something to do and maybe I'll take in a hockey game. Dallas vs. any other US city may attract me. Dallas vs. Quebec, Winnipeg...doesn't really do it I believe. Sounds just way arena footballish.
    " I am sorry I am a Yankee fan because the Tigers are just better"

    I saw the band once on TV

    I am an angry black man
  • DS1119DS1119 Posts: 33,497
    PJFAN13 wrote:
    DS1119 wrote:
    The Phoenix situation blows my mind. They have an absolutley wonderful rink, they have a very competitive team, a lot of people from Canada live in that area during the winter months and a shit ton of northeasterners have moved there. I just don't get why it doesn't work. :fp:

    The rink is in GLENDALE, 35+ miles from Gilbert, Chandler, etc where most of the population lives...its a good 1 hr drive during workweek...its 15 miles, but 30 min drive (with no traffic) from Phoenix, proper. Traffic and infrastructure is jacked up there...really, its 1 hr drive for most 30 mile transists...

    The rink is amazing, the concessions are affordable and the area where the rink is is awesome - bars, restaurants, etc...

    The team has built a winner as of late, but Ice Hockey in PHX is not built in the culture. Kids grow up playing baseball, soccer and football in AZ - not ice hockey. The area has done a great job of building beautiful rinks and getting local stars to coach, do clinics etc, but its not ingrained in the culture.

    Very sad. The fans who are die-hard there deserve this club and I hope it stays, but its not like growing up back east, deck hockey, street hockey, frozen ponds = kids play pickup hockey. Just not the case in AZ. Impossible to do with the climate. I lived there for 5 years, when my NYR team came in they jacked the price up on the tickets because it was a "premier" game - same with DET, TOR and CHI...lots of transient fans of other teams, lack of championship hockey culture in AZ and businesses who won't fill the lux boxes makes it a tough sell...

    That is the key, the location of the arena was a horrible idea. That distance is a killer. I grew up about an hour east of Pittsburgh, and even if we had the money, we couldn't buy season tickets. We went to a few Penguins games a year, and it involved my dad getting out of work a little early, rushing downtown, getting home after 11PM, and all that stuff. Not really doable 40 times a year, especially for people with families.

    And there are a lot of Northeastern US & Canada transplants there, but they don't buy season tickets. They go to games if/when their Maple Leafs, Bruins, Rangers, etc play there. It's like really any sports teams in Florida - tough to sell season tickets.


    One thing lost in all this. The entire Phoenix market is spread out. If the arena was put in downtown, there would be people saying why put it there...the money is in the suburbs. I mean it's not uncommon to have a 100 mile round trip commute each day to work there.
    " I am sorry I am a Yankee fan because the Tigers are just better"

    I saw the band once on TV

    I am an angry black man
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