The Death Penalty

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  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 6,320
    Something not talked about often enough is the fact that correction officers safety should also be a consideration.

    I've been reading through some different articles and statistics, but it seems about 1,000 officers are hurt each year due to assault.  I'm not sure how accurate this is now but it seemed at one point fatalities for correction officers due to assault was roughly 5 per year.

    What isn't clear is what is the profile of the assailant in these instances.  And that is a key piece of data.  
    thirty has actually brought this up in the past, but the problem is, we can't use that as a reason to put people to death. there is no way, obviously, to know if an inmate will commit an assault or worse on a corrections officer, so killing them to prevent that is putting the cart before the horse. 
    We can if we were so inclined. The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour.

    Not only officers, but other inmates as well. McGray had killed old, young, men, and women. He was convicted. Then eagerly fast tracked to a medium security prison because enthusiastic corrections officials determined he was not a threat (despite saying to the contrary lol). Then... of course... he killed a cell mate who had expressed he felt for his safety and requested a transfer to another cell.

    If he had rightfully been executed... one less victim. 

    I haven't read anout any recent victims, but I'm sure he's plotting something. And, I'm sure some advocate is vouching for his character (albeit at arm's length- they're not assuming any risk and inviting him for any sleepover).

    http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/prison-couldnt-keep-michael-wayne-mcgray-from-killing-just-like-he-said-it-wouldnt
    and this post proves the anti-DP stance. humans and their decision making/emotional responses is fallible. you don't put someone to death because people in the sentencing phase fucked up. I can't even express how ludicrous that is. 

    if he had killed a cellmate that had also been convicted of murder, would you be calling him a victim? or would you be applauding McGray's "service to society"?
    I wouldn't be applauding, but I wouldn't be losing any sleep either.

    You know... one of your posts a few back was detailing how awful it would be in prison- among the dregs of society (or something like that). A murderer isn't 'among' the dregs of society... they are the dregs of society. Prison doesn't make that place brutal as much as the people who are placed there do.
    well no shit. so let's just kill them all then. problem solved. 
    Hyperbole 

    Nobody is saying that.

    We can if we were so inclined. The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour

    Essentially, you are saying that.
    No.

    You glossed over Hugh's comment which I responded to. He said 'we can't'... to which I replied what you quoted.

    I've been very clear as to what I feel warrants a sentence of death throughout this entire thread.
    A little annoyed if someone mischaracterizes your position, thirty?

    Maybe you need a hug and a latte.
    Maybe I do.

    Are you going to keep commenting on the little, petty items... or did you care to tackle some of the bigger items such as the immense failure of our correctional services as in the case of Allan Schoenborn? Aren't you in correctional work in some capacity (mental health aspect of it)? You'd be the perfect person to set me straight on thinking this most recent Canadian debacle is hardly that.

    Remember? In case you put this one out of your mind... it's a microcosm of everything that is wrong with our legal system that tries so hard for shitheads:

    Angry with his ex-wife.
    Killed his three kids with a knife.
    Ran into the bush to hide.
    Came out because he was getting hungry and thirsty.
    Courts rule him not criminally responsible.
    He petitions to move to correctional facilities closer to his ex-wife who is trying to flee from him.
    He refuses treatments for the condition that made him 'not criminally responsible'.
    Has had violent episodes in custody,
    And now BC judge rules him not 'high risk'.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/allan-schoenborn-high-risk-accused-1.4270225

    Go for your latte now.

    I've already commented on Schoenborn before. I think it's you who put it out of your head, since my comments don't fit your narrative. I said I have real concerns about how the whole Schoenborn case was dealt with. Maybe go back and read before you slam me again. 
    There have been recent developments that are worth discussing. No?

    His case is not an 'outlier in an otherwise excellent and very functional NCRMD system in Canada' from my perspective. His case oozes with everything that is wrong with our system- from judicial hearings to correctional services.

    Let's go have a latte together.
    Honestly, I've provided a ton of information about the Review Board system, how it works, the clear evidence around its efficacy, and how it differs from the rest of the judicial and corrections system in Canada. I don't feel like going through it again. Those who were interested in learning from it have probably already done so. Those who aren't won't change their minds with whatever I could say today 
     
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Soul...

    If anybody killed one of my kids... I'd feel nothing for their murderer and would want them gone. I might feel a bit badly for their family, but I'm not sure whether I'd concern myself too much over their grief or not given mine would be much greater. Yes... much greater.

    I wouldn't want their killer doing what people like Olsen or Shearing did in Canadian prisons- claiming headlines for various things, getting married, receiving top notch cancer care in timely fashion, receiving 'life like' sex dolls, and other notorious things.

    If it was my son who murdered someone and he was set to receive the DP... of course I wouldn't want that for him- I love my kid unconditionally.

    In the hypothetical you've presented... we are concerning ourselves with the murderer. You've been to the point lately suggesting opponents of the DP are not concerned with murderers and do not feel pity for them. I'm curious to know what your motive is for presenting it? It seems to suggest you do empathize with the murderer.
    Oh, as always, my hypothetical is not actually concerned about the murderer in any way. It shows concern for the surviving victims, who include the family of the murdered victim of course, but also, in many cases, the family of the convicted. I feel deeply for them and the living hell their flesh and blood has also put them through. As I've said dozens of times with 100% clarity, I couldn't care less about the feelings of the murderer (always assuming, obviously, that he's actually guilty... which isn't always a given). I am a little taken aback by your interpretation of the scenario I made up, since I sincerely don't understand how you interpreted that as sympathy for the murderer. I don't feel like anything I said suggests that in any way. I was indeed curious specifically because I wondered if you gave a shit about the rest of the victims in such horrible situations as this, as you would be yourself, if your child committed a heinous crime and was going to be killed by the state.
    .... FWIW, if, god forbid, your kid ended up on death row, I would stand behind your fight to stop the state sanctioned murder of your child.
    I re-read your post. I concede that I misinterpreted to some degree. Sorry. I also feel I have done a really shitty job detailing my position in my last few posts... and I'm too lazy to articulate any better than I already have. Reading posts on my phone and posting on my phone when I don't really have the time to do so is not conducive for effective communication (both listening and speaking). I'll be more careful next time.

    It is a grim hypothetical. I don't really want to think of my child murdered and I don't want to think of him murdering anyone. If either were to happen... please give me your change when you walk by me as I sit on the ground outside of Tim Hortons. I'd be devastated.

    As a side note, I think it's a good point in time to express that I think you're a good person. I've never not thought that as much as we have disagreed (and will continue to disagree) over some topics throughout the years.
    It is a grim scenario for sure, and I felt slightly uncomfortable even typing it to a father TBH, but figured you'd be okay with it for the sake of the discussing. ;) I hear ya on the mobile version of the forum - it sucks.
    And, right back at you. I have friendly feelings towards you and most other people on the AMT, no matter how much we may disagree ... That's why I think we should meet up for drinks when we're both seeing the same show one of these days; I bet we could come up with some good conversations, lol. ;)
    Agreed!

    Cheers.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 6,320
    Hard to believe some still think the death penalty is a good idea when cases like these abound.

    A man was put to death two weeks ago for a murder of a prison guard despite there being no physical evidence linking him to the crime, and the only "witness" testimony from inmates who were bribed, including one who was promised to be moved to a prison closer to his family if he provided positive testimony, and threatened to be charged with the crime himself if he refused to testify. But he has a history of violence, the pro-DP side will say; he was already in prison after being convicted of accessory to a murder, so he's a bad guy and deserves to die. Except that his prior conviction came when he was a 15 year old boy who did nothing other than watch as his father killed their neighbour. 

    (NB the article was written prior to the sentence being carried out, but he was killed by lethal injection on October 13)

    http://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2017/10/junk-science-unreliable-witnesses-no-matter-texas-plans-to-execute-robert-pruett-anyway/

    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • Hard to believe some still think the death penalty is a good idea when cases like these abound.

    A man was put to death two weeks ago for a murder of a prison guard despite there being no physical evidence linking him to the crime, and the only "witness" testimony from inmates who were bribed, including one who was promised to be moved to a prison closer to his family if he provided positive testimony, and threatened to be charged with the crime himself if he refused to testify. But he has a history of violence, the pro-DP side will say; he was already in prison after being convicted of accessory to a murder, so he's a bad guy and deserves to die. Except that his prior conviction came when he was a 15 year old boy who did nothing other than watch as his father killed their neighbour. 

    (NB the article was written prior to the sentence being carried out, but he was killed by lethal injection on October 13)

    http://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2017/10/junk-science-unreliable-witnesses-no-matter-texas-plans-to-execute-robert-pruett-anyway/


    Hard to believe some still think the death penalty is a bad idea when cases like this abound.

    An Atlanta mom is accused of killing her 1- and 2-year-old sons by cooking them alive in an oven — and then sending their father footage of the grisly aftermath.

    The anti-DP side will say: that the video evidence isn't conclusive and things like 'she was depressed so it wasn't her fault' and 'we can't play God'. Except the autopsy results and video evidence are conclusive and this disgusting piece of shit is worthless and is not fit to breathe the same air as us, enjoy a laugh, watch television, enjoy a meal, or speak to another human.

    She needs to go.

    http://nypost.com/2017/10/16/mom-accused-of-killing-her-babies-by-cooking-them-alive-in-oven/
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 6,320
    Sure, what's the loss of a few innocent people here and there when there's vengeance to be had?
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • Sure, what's the loss of a few innocent people here and there when there's vengeance to be had?

    So the figure in your case is innocent?

    I know of that case and to be quite honest... I wasn't down with the idea of executing him. He is as guilty as he is innocent though (maybe more so)- so don't carelessly throw that term out there as if innocence is indisputable to make your case against the DP.

    Abuse of the DP does not mean we should abolish it. Careful administration of it in the most appropriate cases- given their circumstances- is very reasonable.

    I take it from your response you feel the DP is not appropriate for the woman who cooked her two babies alive in her oven? I'm not surprised.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 6,320
    Given that I've made no secret that I don't believe the death penalty is appropriate in any case, it's not a shocker. 

    There is no physical evidence of guilt in the case I posted and there is evidence against the finding of guilt. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 6,320
    And I would add that there hasn't even been a trial in the case posted above. Wouldn't be the first time the facts of a case turn out to be different from what was originally posted online. Also wouldn't be rhe first time that someone was in favour of the DP for someone who hasn't even had a trial yet. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • Given that I've made no secret that I don't believe the death penalty is appropriate in any case, it's not a shocker. 

    There is no physical evidence of guilt in the case I posted and there is evidence against the finding of guilt. 

    Just as there is evidence for finding the guy guilty- even though it's not iron clad. Quit persisting he's innocent based on what you've read on the internet (a rather ironic tactic given your next post admonishing the pro DP crew for formulating their opinions based on what they read from the web in their rush for blood).

    I've already said I wasn't in favour of executing him.

    And good for you finding it within your heart to essentially forgive the mutant mother that cooked her two babies alive in the oven. You're a way better person than me.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 6,320
    Assuming you didn't attend the trial, you're also basing your analysis on what you've read on the internet. 

    And there is a major difference between information gathered over many years and many different appeals, and what is reported in one brief paragraph pre-trial. 

    Finally, as has been stated repeatedly, "forgiveness" isn't part of the analysis.  Many other factors are, but that one isn't. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 6,320
    Strangely enough, the legal standard for a finding in a criminal trial is "beyond a reasonable doubt". I wonder if there are grounds for reasonable doubt here? Particularly when witnesses were bribed and the jury was not informed of that fact. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • Strangely enough, the legal standard for a finding in a criminal trial is "beyond a reasonable doubt". I wonder if there are grounds for reasonable doubt here? Particularly when witnesses were bribed and the jury was not informed of that fact. 
    The case you presented is very questionable. In my opinion, the DP was harsh and maybe even erroneously applied. We are not really arguing about the circumstances in this case.

    The DP is not something that should be wantonly applied. But it is something that should be utilized in the most grim cases.

    The disgusting human thread where two degenerates killed their baby haven't prompted me to chant "March them to the chair" (that said... I wouldn't lose an ounce of sleep if they were executed... brutal... just brutal); however, I feel their crime was one of being completely pathetic and consequently negligent. Unless the facts reveal a more sinister scenario than being so drugged up (Trainspotting style) they failed to care for their infant... prison is fine.

    The case I presented is one where the DP is very reasonable if the story is accurate and that disgusting excuse of a woman baked her children alive (you seem to think major news agencies and grieving husband might not have the full story).
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 6,320
    I'm surprised that anyone could seriously think that a brief news report of an arrest could "have the whole story".

    And I'm never really in favour of skipping the trial and jumping straight to the sentencing phase. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • I'm surprised that anyone could seriously think that a brief news report of an arrest could "have the whole story".

    And I'm never really in favour of skipping the trial and jumping straight to the sentencing phase. 

    Well obviously if the story is dramatically different than what we have been told... my opinion would change.

    All accounts to this point in time have a distraught and grieving father and video footage of the mess. What are you waiting to hear? The woman's mindset to help us understand why she baked her kids and how we might best move forward in a positive direction from here with a comprehensive rehabilitation effort? 

    Let me clarify if it makes you feel better: if this Atlanta woman placed her young toddlers into an oven, baked them alive, made a video of the event, and sent it to her ex... she deserves a sentence of death.

    I'd be curious to know if you would feel differently about the DP if one of your children was killed in grotesque fashion by some sick bastard? Would you want the murderer of your child behind bars enjoying any comfort they might happen to find there (some find many comforts and their days aren't too shabby)... or would you want them dead?

    What would you accept as justice for your slain child?
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 17,054
    I'd say the two idiots who left their 4month old on swing set to die should def be put to death ...
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 6,320
    What we have here...... is a failure to communicate.

    One more time.

    I don't believe in the death penalty. Full stop. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • What we have here...... is a failure to communicate.

    One more time.

    I don't believe in the death penalty. Full stop. 
    Fair enough,
    "My brain's a good brain!"
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