The Death Penalty

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Comments

  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 37,485
    edited September 7
    I agree that the viewing component of the punishment is (to use the term already used) twisted.

    Alrhough... I'll never judge victims for their willingness to participate. If it was one of my children... I'm not sure how I'd be with regards to viewing the event as much as I'd be okay with justice/vengeance/whatever you want to call it for my slain child.
    Just out of curiosity Thirty, how would you feel if someone killed your kid and you wanted the murderer to die (and the DP were legal where you are), but that killer had a lovely devastated family, who did nothing to make the person end up like that, and that family was being torn apart through the long DP process and the fact that their child/brother/father/etc was going to be killed? Say they fully acknowledged the horrible crimes he committed, and made no excuses for them whatsoever, but they are still being destroyed over the killing of their own flesh and blood? That nice family are victims too. How would you feel about that situation? Or, thinking of it another way, how would you feel if your own kid was the killer/rapist? Would you want your kid to be killed by the government? Would that help you and your family? Would you be willing to quietly accept the murder of your kid because the DP is legal and because your kid deserved it? I'm not asking so I can throw it back at you or anything like that. I've just never asked this question of a supporter of the DP before, and since I always see supporters talking about "if it were my kid that got killed...", I'm wondering how they would feel about the DP if the roles were reversed.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Soul...

    If anybody killed one of my kids... I'd feel nothing for their murderer and would want them gone. I might feel a bit badly for their family, but I'm not sure whether I'd concern myself too much over their grief or not given mine would be much greater. Yes... much greater.

    I wouldn't want their killer doing what people like Olsen or Shearing did in Canadian prisons- claiming headlines for various things, getting married, receiving top notch cancer care in timely fashion, receiving 'life like' sex dolls, and other notorious things.

    If it was my son who murdered someone and he was set to receive the DP... of course I wouldn't want that for him- I love my kid unconditionally.

    In the hypothetical you've presented... we are concerning ourselves with the murderer. You've been to the point lately suggesting opponents of the DP are not concerned with murderers and do not feel pity for them. I'm curious to know what your motive is for presenting it? It seems to suggest you do empathize with the murderer.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 37,485
    edited September 7
    Soul...

    If anybody killed one of my kids... I'd feel nothing for their murderer and would want them gone. I might feel a bit badly for their family, but I'm not sure whether I'd concern myself too much over their grief or not given mine would be much greater. Yes... much greater.

    I wouldn't want their killer doing what people like Olsen or Shearing did in Canadian prisons- claiming headlines for various things, getting married, receiving top notch cancer care in timely fashion, receiving 'life like' sex dolls, and other notorious things.

    If it was my son who murdered someone and he was set to receive the DP... of course I wouldn't want that for him- I love my kid unconditionally.

    In the hypothetical you've presented... we are concerning ourselves with the murderer. You've been to the point lately suggesting opponents of the DP are not concerned with murderers and do not feel pity for them. I'm curious to know what your motive is for presenting it? It seems to suggest you do empathize with the murderer.
    Oh, as always, my hypothetical is not actually concerned about the murderer in any way. It shows concern for the surviving victims, who include the family of the murdered victim of course, but also, in many cases, the family of the convicted. I feel deeply for them and the living hell their flesh and blood has also put them through. As I've said dozens of times with 100% clarity, I couldn't care less about the feelings of the murderer (always assuming, obviously, that he's actually guilty... which isn't always a given). I am a little taken aback by your interpretation of the scenario I made up, since I sincerely don't understand how you interpreted that as sympathy for the murderer. I don't feel like anything I said suggests that in any way. I was indeed curious specifically because I wondered if you gave a shit about the rest of the victims in such horrible situations as this, as you would be yourself, if your child committed a heinous crime and was going to be killed by the state.
    .... FWIW, if, god forbid, your kid ended up on death row, I would stand behind your fight to stop the state sanctioned murder of your child.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 11,953
    PJ_Soul said:
    Soul...

    If anybody killed one of my kids... I'd feel nothing for their murderer and would want them gone. I might feel a bit badly for their family, but I'm not sure whether I'd concern myself too much over their grief or not given mine would be much greater. Yes... much greater.

    I wouldn't want their killer doing what people like Olsen or Shearing did in Canadian prisons- claiming headlines for various things, getting married, receiving top notch cancer care in timely fashion, receiving 'life like' sex dolls, and other notorious things.

    If it was my son who murdered someone and he was set to receive the DP... of course I wouldn't want that for him- I love my kid unconditionally.

    In the hypothetical you've presented... we are concerning ourselves with the murderer. You've been to the point lately suggesting opponents of the DP are not concerned with murderers and do not feel pity for them. I'm curious to know what your motive is for presenting it? It seems to suggest you do empathize with the murderer.
    Oh, as always, my hypothetical is not actually concerned about the murderer in any way. It shows concern for the surviving victims, who include the family of the murdered victim of course, but also, in many cases, the family of the convicted. I feel deeply for them and the living hell their flesh and blood has also put them through. As I've said dozens of times with 100% clarity, I couldn't care less about the feelings of the murderer (always assuming, obviously, that he's actually guilty... which isn't always a given). I am a little taken aback by your interpretation of the scenario I made up, since I sincerely don't understand how you interpreted that as sympathy for the murderer. I don't feel like anything I said suggests that in any way. I was indeed curious specifically because I wondered if you gave a shit about the rest of the victims in such horrible situations as this, as you would be yourself, if your child committed a heinous crime and was going to be killed by the state.
    .... FWIW, if, god forbid, your kid ended up on death row, I would stand behind your fight to stop the state sanctioned murder of your child.
    it's because he can't reconcile his thirst for blood and how it would be for those on the other side of it. 
    T minus 9 days and counting..........
  • PJ_Soul said:
    Soul...

    If anybody killed one of my kids... I'd feel nothing for their murderer and would want them gone. I might feel a bit badly for their family, but I'm not sure whether I'd concern myself too much over their grief or not given mine would be much greater. Yes... much greater.

    I wouldn't want their killer doing what people like Olsen or Shearing did in Canadian prisons- claiming headlines for various things, getting married, receiving top notch cancer care in timely fashion, receiving 'life like' sex dolls, and other notorious things.

    If it was my son who murdered someone and he was set to receive the DP... of course I wouldn't want that for him- I love my kid unconditionally.

    In the hypothetical you've presented... we are concerning ourselves with the murderer. You've been to the point lately suggesting opponents of the DP are not concerned with murderers and do not feel pity for them. I'm curious to know what your motive is for presenting it? It seems to suggest you do empathize with the murderer.
    Oh, as always, my hypothetical is not actually concerned about the murderer in any way. It shows concern for the surviving victims, who include the family of the murdered victim of course, but also, in many cases, the family of the convicted. I feel deeply for them and the living hell their flesh and blood has also put them through. As I've said dozens of times with 100% clarity, I couldn't care less about the feelings of the murderer (always assuming, obviously, that he's actually guilty... which isn't always a given). I am a little taken aback by your interpretation of the scenario I made up, since I sincerely don't understand how you interpreted that as sympathy for the murderer. I don't feel like anything I said suggests that in any way. I was indeed curious specifically because I wondered if you gave a shit about the rest of the victims in such horrible situations as this, as you would be yourself, if your child committed a heinous crime and was going to be killed by the state.
    .... FWIW, if, god forbid, your kid ended up on death row, I would stand behind your fight to stop the state sanctioned murder of your child.
    I re-read your post. I concede that I misinterpreted to some degree. Sorry. I also feel I have done a really shitty job detailing my position in my last few posts... and I'm too lazy to articulate any better than I already have. Reading posts on my phone and posting on my phone when I don't really have the time to do so is not conducive for effective communication (both listening and speaking). I'll be more careful next time.

    It is a grim hypothetical. I don't really want to think of my child murdered and I don't want to think of him murdering anyone. If either were to happen... please give me your change when you walk by me as I sit on the ground outside of Tim Hortons. I'd be devastated.

    As a side note, I think it's a good point in time to express that I think you're a good person. I've never not thought that as much as we have disagreed (and will continue to disagree) over some topics throughout the years.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 11,953
    i think any rational, normal human being would be broken by either scenario. i wish more people would think of the victims on all sides of it, as pjsoul presented. 
    T minus 9 days and counting..........
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 8,712
    Something not talked about often enough is the fact that correction officers safety should also be a consideration.

    I've been reading through some different articles and statistics, but it seems about 1,000 officers are hurt each year due to assault.  I'm not sure how accurate this is now but it seemed at one point fatalities for correction officers due to assault was roughly 5 per year.

    What isn't clear is what is the profile of the assailant in these instances.  And that is a key piece of data.  
    hippiemom = goodness
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 11,953
    Something not talked about often enough is the fact that correction officers safety should also be a consideration.

    I've been reading through some different articles and statistics, but it seems about 1,000 officers are hurt each year due to assault.  I'm not sure how accurate this is now but it seemed at one point fatalities for correction officers due to assault was roughly 5 per year.

    What isn't clear is what is the profile of the assailant in these instances.  And that is a key piece of data.  
    thirty has actually brought this up in the past, but the problem is, we can't use that as a reason to put people to death. there is no way, obviously, to know if an inmate will commit an assault or worse on a corrections officer, so killing them to prevent that is putting the cart before the horse. 
    T minus 9 days and counting..........
  • Thirty Bills UnpaidThirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 12,125
    edited September 8
    Something not talked about often enough is the fact that correction officers safety should also be a consideration.

    I've been reading through some different articles and statistics, but it seems about 1,000 officers are hurt each year due to assault.  I'm not sure how accurate this is now but it seemed at one point fatalities for correction officers due to assault was roughly 5 per year.

    What isn't clear is what is the profile of the assailant in these instances.  And that is a key piece of data.  
    thirty has actually brought this up in the past, but the problem is, we can't use that as a reason to put people to death. there is no way, obviously, to know if an inmate will commit an assault or worse on a corrections officer, so killing them to prevent that is putting the cart before the horse. 
    We can if we were so inclined. The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour.

    Not only officers, but other inmates as well. McGray had killed old, young, men, and women. He was convicted. Then eagerly fast tracked to a medium security prison because enthusiastic corrections officials determined he was not a threat (despite saying to the contrary lol). Then... of course... he killed a cell mate who had expressed he felt for his safety and requested a transfer to another cell.

    If he had rightfully been executed... one less victim. 

    I haven't read anout any recent victims, but I'm sure he's plotting something. And, I'm sure some advocate is vouching for his character (albeit at arm's length- they're not assuming any risk and inviting him for any sleepover).

    http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/prison-couldnt-keep-michael-wayne-mcgray-from-killing-just-like-he-said-it-wouldnt
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 11,953
    Something not talked about often enough is the fact that correction officers safety should also be a consideration.

    I've been reading through some different articles and statistics, but it seems about 1,000 officers are hurt each year due to assault.  I'm not sure how accurate this is now but it seemed at one point fatalities for correction officers due to assault was roughly 5 per year.

    What isn't clear is what is the profile of the assailant in these instances.  And that is a key piece of data.  
    thirty has actually brought this up in the past, but the problem is, we can't use that as a reason to put people to death. there is no way, obviously, to know if an inmate will commit an assault or worse on a corrections officer, so killing them to prevent that is putting the cart before the horse. 
    We can if we were so inclined. The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour.

    Not only officers, but other inmates as well. McGray had killed old, young, men, and women. He was convicted. Then eagerly fast tracked to a medium security prison because enthusiastic corrections officials determined he was not a threat (despite saying to the contrary lol). Then... of course... he killed a cell mate who had expressed he felt for his safety and requested a transfer to another cell.

    If he had rightfully been executed... one less victim. 

    I haven't read anout any recent victims, but I'm sure he's plotting something. And, I'm sure some advocate is vouching for his character (albeit at arm's length- they're not assuming any risk and inviting him for any sleepover).

    http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/prison-couldnt-keep-michael-wayne-mcgray-from-killing-just-like-he-said-it-wouldnt
    and this post proves the anti-DP stance. humans and their decision making/emotional responses is fallible. you don't put someone to death because people in the sentencing phase fucked up. I can't even express how ludicrous that is. 

    if he had killed a cellmate that had also been convicted of murder, would you be calling him a victim? or would you be applauding McGray's "service to society"?
    T minus 9 days and counting..........
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 6,306
    Something not talked about often enough is the fact that correction officers safety should also be a consideration.

    I've been reading through some different articles and statistics, but it seems about 1,000 officers are hurt each year due to assault.  I'm not sure how accurate this is now but it seemed at one point fatalities for correction officers due to assault was roughly 5 per year.

    What isn't clear is what is the profile of the assailant in these instances.  And that is a key piece of data.  

    I would bet that information on the "profile", so to speak, of individuals who assault or kill corrections officers is out there. Someone is going to have researched this. Canada is one of the world leaders in research on risk assessment so it might even be local. If I remember I'll try to look it up.

    Off the top of my head, though, I would think that the vast majority of assaults and murders of corrections officers would not be perpetrated by the sort of individuals that Thirty advocates for the DP (though lately he seems to be broadening that up, so who knows?) - meaning the premeditated sex offender murderers. I would suspect that mostly the assaults would be reactive aggression from the usual group of impulsive folks with poor emotional control who perpetrate most assaults. Do we kill all of those folks pre-emptively?
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • Something not talked about often enough is the fact that correction officers safety should also be a consideration.

    I've been reading through some different articles and statistics, but it seems about 1,000 officers are hurt each year due to assault.  I'm not sure how accurate this is now but it seemed at one point fatalities for correction officers due to assault was roughly 5 per year.

    What isn't clear is what is the profile of the assailant in these instances.  And that is a key piece of data.  
    thirty has actually brought this up in the past, but the problem is, we can't use that as a reason to put people to death. there is no way, obviously, to know if an inmate will commit an assault or worse on a corrections officer, so killing them to prevent that is putting the cart before the horse. 
    We can if we were so inclined. The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour.

    Not only officers, but other inmates as well. McGray had killed old, young, men, and women. He was convicted. Then eagerly fast tracked to a medium security prison because enthusiastic corrections officials determined he was not a threat (despite saying to the contrary lol). Then... of course... he killed a cell mate who had expressed he felt for his safety and requested a transfer to another cell.

    If he had rightfully been executed... one less victim. 

    I haven't read anout any recent victims, but I'm sure he's plotting something. And, I'm sure some advocate is vouching for his character (albeit at arm's length- they're not assuming any risk and inviting him for any sleepover).

    http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/prison-couldnt-keep-michael-wayne-mcgray-from-killing-just-like-he-said-it-wouldnt
    and this post proves the anti-DP stance. humans and their decision making/emotional responses is fallible. you don't put someone to death because people in the sentencing phase fucked up. I can't even express how ludicrous that is. 

    if he had killed a cellmate that had also been convicted of murder, would you be calling him a victim? or would you be applauding McGray's "service to society"?
    I wouldn't be applauding, but I wouldn't be losing any sleep either.

    You know... one of your posts a few back was detailing how awful it would be in prison- among the dregs of society (or something like that). A murderer isn't 'among' the dregs of society... they are the dregs of society. Prison doesn't make that place brutal as much as the people who are placed there do.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 6,306
    This is an interesting list, and relevant to this part of the discussion:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_correctional_workers_who_have_died_in_the_line_of_duty

    The good news - only 55 Canadian corrections officers have died in the line of duty since records began in 1870 (55 too many, of course).

    The list also includes a number who clearly weren't murdered, including one who died by a heart attack while working, one who was accidentally shot by rescuers during a hostage taking, one who was "trampled by horses" (?), one who fell from a balcony, some in vehicle accidents, etc.

    Of those who were killed by assault, many seemed to have happened during escape attempts. Only a couple seem targeted, and interestingly they didn't happen in the prison system - they were deaths "ordered" by the Hell's Angels and perpetrated by gang members out of custody in the community.

    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 11,953
    Something not talked about often enough is the fact that correction officers safety should also be a consideration.

    I've been reading through some different articles and statistics, but it seems about 1,000 officers are hurt each year due to assault.  I'm not sure how accurate this is now but it seemed at one point fatalities for correction officers due to assault was roughly 5 per year.

    What isn't clear is what is the profile of the assailant in these instances.  And that is a key piece of data.  
    thirty has actually brought this up in the past, but the problem is, we can't use that as a reason to put people to death. there is no way, obviously, to know if an inmate will commit an assault or worse on a corrections officer, so killing them to prevent that is putting the cart before the horse. 
    We can if we were so inclined. The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour.

    Not only officers, but other inmates as well. McGray had killed old, young, men, and women. He was convicted. Then eagerly fast tracked to a medium security prison because enthusiastic corrections officials determined he was not a threat (despite saying to the contrary lol). Then... of course... he killed a cell mate who had expressed he felt for his safety and requested a transfer to another cell.

    If he had rightfully been executed... one less victim. 

    I haven't read anout any recent victims, but I'm sure he's plotting something. And, I'm sure some advocate is vouching for his character (albeit at arm's length- they're not assuming any risk and inviting him for any sleepover).

    http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/prison-couldnt-keep-michael-wayne-mcgray-from-killing-just-like-he-said-it-wouldnt
    and this post proves the anti-DP stance. humans and their decision making/emotional responses is fallible. you don't put someone to death because people in the sentencing phase fucked up. I can't even express how ludicrous that is. 

    if he had killed a cellmate that had also been convicted of murder, would you be calling him a victim? or would you be applauding McGray's "service to society"?
    I wouldn't be applauding, but I wouldn't be losing any sleep either.

    You know... one of your posts a few back was detailing how awful it would be in prison- among the dregs of society (or something like that). A murderer isn't 'among' the dregs of society... they are the dregs of society. Prison doesn't make that place brutal as much as the people who are placed there do.
    well no shit. so let's just kill them all then. problem solved. 
    T minus 9 days and counting..........
  • Something not talked about often enough is the fact that correction officers safety should also be a consideration.

    I've been reading through some different articles and statistics, but it seems about 1,000 officers are hurt each year due to assault.  I'm not sure how accurate this is now but it seemed at one point fatalities for correction officers due to assault was roughly 5 per year.

    What isn't clear is what is the profile of the assailant in these instances.  And that is a key piece of data.  
    thirty has actually brought this up in the past, but the problem is, we can't use that as a reason to put people to death. there is no way, obviously, to know if an inmate will commit an assault or worse on a corrections officer, so killing them to prevent that is putting the cart before the horse. 
    We can if we were so inclined. The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour.

    Not only officers, but other inmates as well. McGray had killed old, young, men, and women. He was convicted. Then eagerly fast tracked to a medium security prison because enthusiastic corrections officials determined he was not a threat (despite saying to the contrary lol). Then... of course... he killed a cell mate who had expressed he felt for his safety and requested a transfer to another cell.

    If he had rightfully been executed... one less victim. 

    I haven't read anout any recent victims, but I'm sure he's plotting something. And, I'm sure some advocate is vouching for his character (albeit at arm's length- they're not assuming any risk and inviting him for any sleepover).

    http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/prison-couldnt-keep-michael-wayne-mcgray-from-killing-just-like-he-said-it-wouldnt
    and this post proves the anti-DP stance. humans and their decision making/emotional responses is fallible. you don't put someone to death because people in the sentencing phase fucked up. I can't even express how ludicrous that is. 

    if he had killed a cellmate that had also been convicted of murder, would you be calling him a victim? or would you be applauding McGray's "service to society"?
    I wouldn't be applauding, but I wouldn't be losing any sleep either.

    You know... one of your posts a few back was detailing how awful it would be in prison- among the dregs of society (or something like that). A murderer isn't 'among' the dregs of society... they are the dregs of society. Prison doesn't make that place brutal as much as the people who are placed there do.
    well no shit. so let's just kill them all then. problem solved. 
    Hyperbole 

    Nobody is saying that.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 6,306
    Something not talked about often enough is the fact that correction officers safety should also be a consideration.

    I've been reading through some different articles and statistics, but it seems about 1,000 officers are hurt each year due to assault.  I'm not sure how accurate this is now but it seemed at one point fatalities for correction officers due to assault was roughly 5 per year.

    What isn't clear is what is the profile of the assailant in these instances.  And that is a key piece of data.  
    thirty has actually brought this up in the past, but the problem is, we can't use that as a reason to put people to death. there is no way, obviously, to know if an inmate will commit an assault or worse on a corrections officer, so killing them to prevent that is putting the cart before the horse. 
    We can if we were so inclined. The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour.

    Not only officers, but other inmates as well. McGray had killed old, young, men, and women. He was convicted. Then eagerly fast tracked to a medium security prison because enthusiastic corrections officials determined he was not a threat (despite saying to the contrary lol). Then... of course... he killed a cell mate who had expressed he felt for his safety and requested a transfer to another cell.

    If he had rightfully been executed... one less victim. 

    I haven't read anout any recent victims, but I'm sure he's plotting something. And, I'm sure some advocate is vouching for his character (albeit at arm's length- they're not assuming any risk and inviting him for any sleepover).

    http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/prison-couldnt-keep-michael-wayne-mcgray-from-killing-just-like-he-said-it-wouldnt
    and this post proves the anti-DP stance. humans and their decision making/emotional responses is fallible. you don't put someone to death because people in the sentencing phase fucked up. I can't even express how ludicrous that is. 

    if he had killed a cellmate that had also been convicted of murder, would you be calling him a victim? or would you be applauding McGray's "service to society"?
    I wouldn't be applauding, but I wouldn't be losing any sleep either.

    You know... one of your posts a few back was detailing how awful it would be in prison- among the dregs of society (or something like that). A murderer isn't 'among' the dregs of society... they are the dregs of society. Prison doesn't make that place brutal as much as the people who are placed there do.
    well no shit. so let's just kill them all then. problem solved. 
    Hyperbole 

    Nobody is saying that.

    We can if we were so inclined. The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour

    Essentially, you are saying that.
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • Something not talked about often enough is the fact that correction officers safety should also be a consideration.

    I've been reading through some different articles and statistics, but it seems about 1,000 officers are hurt each year due to assault.  I'm not sure how accurate this is now but it seemed at one point fatalities for correction officers due to assault was roughly 5 per year.

    What isn't clear is what is the profile of the assailant in these instances.  And that is a key piece of data.  
    thirty has actually brought this up in the past, but the problem is, we can't use that as a reason to put people to death. there is no way, obviously, to know if an inmate will commit an assault or worse on a corrections officer, so killing them to prevent that is putting the cart before the horse. 
    We can if we were so inclined. The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour.

    Not only officers, but other inmates as well. McGray had killed old, young, men, and women. He was convicted. Then eagerly fast tracked to a medium security prison because enthusiastic corrections officials determined he was not a threat (despite saying to the contrary lol). Then... of course... he killed a cell mate who had expressed he felt for his safety and requested a transfer to another cell.

    If he had rightfully been executed... one less victim. 

    I haven't read anout any recent victims, but I'm sure he's plotting something. And, I'm sure some advocate is vouching for his character (albeit at arm's length- they're not assuming any risk and inviting him for any sleepover).

    http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/prison-couldnt-keep-michael-wayne-mcgray-from-killing-just-like-he-said-it-wouldnt
    and this post proves the anti-DP stance. humans and their decision making/emotional responses is fallible. you don't put someone to death because people in the sentencing phase fucked up. I can't even express how ludicrous that is. 

    if he had killed a cellmate that had also been convicted of murder, would you be calling him a victim? or would you be applauding McGray's "service to society"?
    I wouldn't be applauding, but I wouldn't be losing any sleep either.

    You know... one of your posts a few back was detailing how awful it would be in prison- among the dregs of society (or something like that). A murderer isn't 'among' the dregs of society... they are the dregs of society. Prison doesn't make that place brutal as much as the people who are placed there do.
    well no shit. so let's just kill them all then. problem solved. 
    Hyperbole 

    Nobody is saying that.

    We can if we were so inclined. The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour

    Essentially, you are saying that.
    No.

    You glossed over Hugh's comment which I responded to. He said 'we can't'... to which I replied what you quoted.

    I've been very clear as to what I feel warrants a sentence of death throughout this entire thread.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 6,306
    Something not talked about often enough is the fact that correction officers safety should also be a consideration.

    I've been reading through some different articles and statistics, but it seems about 1,000 officers are hurt each year due to assault.  I'm not sure how accurate this is now but it seemed at one point fatalities for correction officers due to assault was roughly 5 per year.

    What isn't clear is what is the profile of the assailant in these instances.  And that is a key piece of data.  
    thirty has actually brought this up in the past, but the problem is, we can't use that as a reason to put people to death. there is no way, obviously, to know if an inmate will commit an assault or worse on a corrections officer, so killing them to prevent that is putting the cart before the horse. 
    We can if we were so inclined. The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour.

    Not only officers, but other inmates as well. McGray had killed old, young, men, and women. He was convicted. Then eagerly fast tracked to a medium security prison because enthusiastic corrections officials determined he was not a threat (despite saying to the contrary lol). Then... of course... he killed a cell mate who had expressed he felt for his safety and requested a transfer to another cell.

    If he had rightfully been executed... one less victim. 

    I haven't read anout any recent victims, but I'm sure he's plotting something. And, I'm sure some advocate is vouching for his character (albeit at arm's length- they're not assuming any risk and inviting him for any sleepover).

    http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/prison-couldnt-keep-michael-wayne-mcgray-from-killing-just-like-he-said-it-wouldnt
    and this post proves the anti-DP stance. humans and their decision making/emotional responses is fallible. you don't put someone to death because people in the sentencing phase fucked up. I can't even express how ludicrous that is. 

    if he had killed a cellmate that had also been convicted of murder, would you be calling him a victim? or would you be applauding McGray's "service to society"?
    I wouldn't be applauding, but I wouldn't be losing any sleep either.

    You know... one of your posts a few back was detailing how awful it would be in prison- among the dregs of society (or something like that). A murderer isn't 'among' the dregs of society... they are the dregs of society. Prison doesn't make that place brutal as much as the people who are placed there do.
    well no shit. so let's just kill them all then. problem solved. 
    Hyperbole 

    Nobody is saying that.

    We can if we were so inclined. The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour

    Essentially, you are saying that.
    No.

    You glossed over Hugh's comment which I responded to. He said 'we can't'... to which I replied what you quoted.

    I've been very clear as to what I feel warrants a sentence of death throughout this entire thread.
    A little annoyed if someone mischaracterizes your position, thirty?

    Maybe you need a hug and a latte.
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 11,953
    Something not talked about often enough is the fact that correction officers safety should also be a consideration.

    I've been reading through some different articles and statistics, but it seems about 1,000 officers are hurt each year due to assault.  I'm not sure how accurate this is now but it seemed at one point fatalities for correction officers due to assault was roughly 5 per year.

    What isn't clear is what is the profile of the assailant in these instances.  And that is a key piece of data.  
    thirty has actually brought this up in the past, but the problem is, we can't use that as a reason to put people to death. there is no way, obviously, to know if an inmate will commit an assault or worse on a corrections officer, so killing them to prevent that is putting the cart before the horse. 
    We can if we were so inclined. The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour.

    Not only officers, but other inmates as well. McGray had killed old, young, men, and women. He was convicted. Then eagerly fast tracked to a medium security prison because enthusiastic corrections officials determined he was not a threat (despite saying to the contrary lol). Then... of course... he killed a cell mate who had expressed he felt for his safety and requested a transfer to another cell.

    If he had rightfully been executed... one less victim. 

    I haven't read anout any recent victims, but I'm sure he's plotting something. And, I'm sure some advocate is vouching for his character (albeit at arm's length- they're not assuming any risk and inviting him for any sleepover).

    http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/prison-couldnt-keep-michael-wayne-mcgray-from-killing-just-like-he-said-it-wouldnt
    and this post proves the anti-DP stance. humans and their decision making/emotional responses is fallible. you don't put someone to death because people in the sentencing phase fucked up. I can't even express how ludicrous that is. 

    if he had killed a cellmate that had also been convicted of murder, would you be calling him a victim? or would you be applauding McGray's "service to society"?
    I wouldn't be applauding, but I wouldn't be losing any sleep either.

    You know... one of your posts a few back was detailing how awful it would be in prison- among the dregs of society (or something like that). A murderer isn't 'among' the dregs of society... they are the dregs of society. Prison doesn't make that place brutal as much as the people who are placed there do.
    well no shit. so let's just kill them all then. problem solved. 
    Hyperbole 

    Nobody is saying that.
    and that, ladies and gentlemen, is what is referred to as "irony":

    I haven't read anout any recent victims, but I'm sure he's plotting something. And, I'm sure some advocate is vouching for his character (albeit at arm's length- they're not assuming any risk and inviting him for any sleepover).
    T minus 9 days and counting..........
  • Something not talked about often enough is the fact that correction officers safety should also be a consideration.

    I've been reading through some different articles and statistics, but it seems about 1,000 officers are hurt each year due to assault.  I'm not sure how accurate this is now but it seemed at one point fatalities for correction officers due to assault was roughly 5 per year.

    What isn't clear is what is the profile of the assailant in these instances.  And that is a key piece of data.  
    thirty has actually brought this up in the past, but the problem is, we can't use that as a reason to put people to death. there is no way, obviously, to know if an inmate will commit an assault or worse on a corrections officer, so killing them to prevent that is putting the cart before the horse. 
    We can if we were so inclined. The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour.

    Not only officers, but other inmates as well. McGray had killed old, young, men, and women. He was convicted. Then eagerly fast tracked to a medium security prison because enthusiastic corrections officials determined he was not a threat (despite saying to the contrary lol). Then... of course... he killed a cell mate who had expressed he felt for his safety and requested a transfer to another cell.

    If he had rightfully been executed... one less victim. 

    I haven't read anout any recent victims, but I'm sure he's plotting something. And, I'm sure some advocate is vouching for his character (albeit at arm's length- they're not assuming any risk and inviting him for any sleepover).

    http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/prison-couldnt-keep-michael-wayne-mcgray-from-killing-just-like-he-said-it-wouldnt
    and this post proves the anti-DP stance. humans and their decision making/emotional responses is fallible. you don't put someone to death because people in the sentencing phase fucked up. I can't even express how ludicrous that is. 

    if he had killed a cellmate that had also been convicted of murder, would you be calling him a victim? or would you be applauding McGray's "service to society"?
    I wouldn't be applauding, but I wouldn't be losing any sleep either.

    You know... one of your posts a few back was detailing how awful it would be in prison- among the dregs of society (or something like that). A murderer isn't 'among' the dregs of society... they are the dregs of society. Prison doesn't make that place brutal as much as the people who are placed there do.
    well no shit. so let's just kill them all then. problem solved. 
    Hyperbole 

    Nobody is saying that.
    and that, ladies and gentlemen, is what is referred to as "irony":

    I haven't read anout any recent victims, but I'm sure he's plotting something. And, I'm sure some advocate is vouching for his character (albeit at arm's length- they're not assuming any risk and inviting him for any sleepover).
    Seriously? Holy crap, man.

    It was tongue in cheek given your propensity to trot that out there when it best suits you.

    I have no false pretenses- I know who I am.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 11,953
    Something not talked about often enough is the fact that correction officers safety should also be a consideration.

    I've been reading through some different articles and statistics, but it seems about 1,000 officers are hurt each year due to assault.  I'm not sure how accurate this is now but it seemed at one point fatalities for correction officers due to assault was roughly 5 per year.

    What isn't clear is what is the profile of the assailant in these instances.  And that is a key piece of data.  
    thirty has actually brought this up in the past, but the problem is, we can't use that as a reason to put people to death. there is no way, obviously, to know if an inmate will commit an assault or worse on a corrections officer, so killing them to prevent that is putting the cart before the horse. 
    We can if we were so inclined. The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour.

    Not only officers, but other inmates as well. McGray had killed old, young, men, and women. He was convicted. Then eagerly fast tracked to a medium security prison because enthusiastic corrections officials determined he was not a threat (despite saying to the contrary lol). Then... of course... he killed a cell mate who had expressed he felt for his safety and requested a transfer to another cell.

    If he had rightfully been executed... one less victim. 

    I haven't read anout any recent victims, but I'm sure he's plotting something. And, I'm sure some advocate is vouching for his character (albeit at arm's length- they're not assuming any risk and inviting him for any sleepover).

    http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/prison-couldnt-keep-michael-wayne-mcgray-from-killing-just-like-he-said-it-wouldnt
    and this post proves the anti-DP stance. humans and their decision making/emotional responses is fallible. you don't put someone to death because people in the sentencing phase fucked up. I can't even express how ludicrous that is. 

    if he had killed a cellmate that had also been convicted of murder, would you be calling him a victim? or would you be applauding McGray's "service to society"?
    I wouldn't be applauding, but I wouldn't be losing any sleep either.

    You know... one of your posts a few back was detailing how awful it would be in prison- among the dregs of society (or something like that). A murderer isn't 'among' the dregs of society... they are the dregs of society. Prison doesn't make that place brutal as much as the people who are placed there do.
    well no shit. so let's just kill them all then. problem solved. 
    Hyperbole 

    Nobody is saying that.
    and that, ladies and gentlemen, is what is referred to as "irony":

    I haven't read anout any recent victims, but I'm sure he's plotting something. And, I'm sure some advocate is vouching for his character (albeit at arm's length- they're not assuming any risk and inviting him for any sleepover).
    Seriously? Holy crap, man.

    It was tongue in cheek given your propensity to trot that out there when it best suits you.

    I have no false pretenses- I know who I am.
    when you do it, it's tongue in cheek. when I do it, it's hyperbole. 
    T minus 9 days and counting..........
  • Something not talked about often enough is the fact that correction officers safety should also be a consideration.

    I've been reading through some different articles and statistics, but it seems about 1,000 officers are hurt each year due to assault.  I'm not sure how accurate this is now but it seemed at one point fatalities for correction officers due to assault was roughly 5 per year.

    What isn't clear is what is the profile of the assailant in these instances.  And that is a key piece of data.  
    thirty has actually brought this up in the past, but the problem is, we can't use that as a reason to put people to death. there is no way, obviously, to know if an inmate will commit an assault or worse on a corrections officer, so killing them to prevent that is putting the cart before the horse. 
    We can if we were so inclined. The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour.

    Not only officers, but other inmates as well. McGray had killed old, young, men, and women. He was convicted. Then eagerly fast tracked to a medium security prison because enthusiastic corrections officials determined he was not a threat (despite saying to the contrary lol). Then... of course... he killed a cell mate who had expressed he felt for his safety and requested a transfer to another cell.

    If he had rightfully been executed... one less victim. 

    I haven't read anout any recent victims, but I'm sure he's plotting something. And, I'm sure some advocate is vouching for his character (albeit at arm's length- they're not assuming any risk and inviting him for any sleepover).

    http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/prison-couldnt-keep-michael-wayne-mcgray-from-killing-just-like-he-said-it-wouldnt
    and this post proves the anti-DP stance. humans and their decision making/emotional responses is fallible. you don't put someone to death because people in the sentencing phase fucked up. I can't even express how ludicrous that is. 

    if he had killed a cellmate that had also been convicted of murder, would you be calling him a victim? or would you be applauding McGray's "service to society"?
    I wouldn't be applauding, but I wouldn't be losing any sleep either.

    You know... one of your posts a few back was detailing how awful it would be in prison- among the dregs of society (or something like that). A murderer isn't 'among' the dregs of society... they are the dregs of society. Prison doesn't make that place brutal as much as the people who are placed there do.
    well no shit. so let's just kill them all then. problem solved. 
    Hyperbole 

    Nobody is saying that.

    We can if we were so inclined. The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour

    Essentially, you are saying that.
    No.

    You glossed over Hugh's comment which I responded to. He said 'we can't'... to which I replied what you quoted.

    I've been very clear as to what I feel warrants a sentence of death throughout this entire thread.
    A little annoyed if someone mischaracterizes your position, thirty?

    Maybe you need a hug and a latte.
    Maybe I do.

    Are you going to keep commenting on the little, petty items... or did you care to tackle some of the bigger items such as the immense failure of our correctional services as in the case of Allan Schoenborn? Aren't you in correctional work in some capacity (mental health aspect of it)? You'd be the perfect person to set me straight on thinking this most recent Canadian debacle is hardly that.

    Remember? In case you put this one out of your mind... it's a microcosm of everything that is wrong with our legal system that tries so hard for shitheads:

    Angry with his ex-wife.
    Killed his three kids with a knife.
    Ran into the bush to hide.
    Came out because he was getting hungry and thirsty.
    Courts rule him not criminally responsible.
    He petitions to move to correctional facilities closer to his ex-wife who is trying to flee from him.
    He refuses treatments for the condition that made him 'not criminally responsible'.
    Has had violent episodes in custody,
    And now BC judge rules him not 'high risk'.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/allan-schoenborn-high-risk-accused-1.4270225

    Go for your latte now.

    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 11,953
    of course there's a major overhaul that is required for our judicial system as a whole. but that is a completely separate issue from the death penalty. using our current system's failures as a reason you support the death penalty is, well, concerning at best. 
    T minus 9 days and counting..........
  • Thirty Bills UnpaidThirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 12,125
    edited September 8
    Something not talked about often enough is the fact that correction officers safety should also be a consideration.

    I've been reading through some different articles and statistics, but it seems about 1,000 officers are hurt each year due to assault.  I'm not sure how accurate this is now but it seemed at one point fatalities for correction officers due to assault was roughly 5 per year.

    What isn't clear is what is the profile of the assailant in these instances.  And that is a key piece of data.  
    thirty has actually brought this up in the past, but the problem is, we can't use that as a reason to put people to death. there is no way, obviously, to know if an inmate will commit an assault or worse on a corrections officer, so killing them to prevent that is putting the cart before the horse. 
    We can if we were so inclined. The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour.

    Not only officers, but other inmates as well. McGray had killed old, young, men, and women. He was convicted. Then eagerly fast tracked to a medium security prison because enthusiastic corrections officials determined he was not a threat (despite saying to the contrary lol). Then... of course... he killed a cell mate who had expressed he felt for his safety and requested a transfer to another cell.

    If he had rightfully been executed... one less victim. 

    I haven't read anout any recent victims, but I'm sure he's plotting something. And, I'm sure some advocate is vouching for his character (albeit at arm's length- they're not assuming any risk and inviting him for any sleepover).

    http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/prison-couldnt-keep-michael-wayne-mcgray-from-killing-just-like-he-said-it-wouldnt
    and this post proves the anti-DP stance. humans and their decision making/emotional responses is fallible. you don't put someone to death because people in the sentencing phase fucked up. I can't even express how ludicrous that is. 

    if he had killed a cellmate that had also been convicted of murder, would you be calling him a victim? or would you be applauding McGray's "service to society"?
    I wouldn't be applauding, but I wouldn't be losing any sleep either.

    You know... one of your posts a few back was detailing how awful it would be in prison- among the dregs of society (or something like that). A murderer isn't 'among' the dregs of society... they are the dregs of society. Prison doesn't make that place brutal as much as the people who are placed there do.
    well no shit. so let's just kill them all then. problem solved. 
    Hyperbole 

    Nobody is saying that.
    and that, ladies and gentlemen, is what is referred to as "irony":

    I haven't read anout any recent victims, but I'm sure he's plotting something. And, I'm sure some advocate is vouching for his character (albeit at arm's length- they're not assuming any risk and inviting him for any sleepover).
    Seriously? Holy crap, man.

    It was tongue in cheek given your propensity to trot that out there when it best suits you.

    I have no false pretenses- I know who I am.
    when you do it, it's tongue in cheek. when I do it, it's hyperbole. 
    No false pretenses. I know fully how I make my points.

    This one, Hugh, went over your head. I tried to poke some good natured fun at you. I'll stick with 'knock knock' jokes next time.

    * Ladies and Gentleman... lol.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 11,953
    Something not talked about often enough is the fact that correction officers safety should also be a consideration.

    I've been reading through some different articles and statistics, but it seems about 1,000 officers are hurt each year due to assault.  I'm not sure how accurate this is now but it seemed at one point fatalities for correction officers due to assault was roughly 5 per year.

    What isn't clear is what is the profile of the assailant in these instances.  And that is a key piece of data.  
    thirty has actually brought this up in the past, but the problem is, we can't use that as a reason to put people to death. there is no way, obviously, to know if an inmate will commit an assault or worse on a corrections officer, so killing them to prevent that is putting the cart before the horse. 
    We can if we were so inclined. The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour.

    Not only officers, but other inmates as well. McGray had killed old, young, men, and women. He was convicted. Then eagerly fast tracked to a medium security prison because enthusiastic corrections officials determined he was not a threat (despite saying to the contrary lol). Then... of course... he killed a cell mate who had expressed he felt for his safety and requested a transfer to another cell.

    If he had rightfully been executed... one less victim. 

    I haven't read anout any recent victims, but I'm sure he's plotting something. And, I'm sure some advocate is vouching for his character (albeit at arm's length- they're not assuming any risk and inviting him for any sleepover).

    http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/prison-couldnt-keep-michael-wayne-mcgray-from-killing-just-like-he-said-it-wouldnt
    and this post proves the anti-DP stance. humans and their decision making/emotional responses is fallible. you don't put someone to death because people in the sentencing phase fucked up. I can't even express how ludicrous that is. 

    if he had killed a cellmate that had also been convicted of murder, would you be calling him a victim? or would you be applauding McGray's "service to society"?
    I wouldn't be applauding, but I wouldn't be losing any sleep either.

    You know... one of your posts a few back was detailing how awful it would be in prison- among the dregs of society (or something like that). A murderer isn't 'among' the dregs of society... they are the dregs of society. Prison doesn't make that place brutal as much as the people who are placed there do.
    well no shit. so let's just kill them all then. problem solved. 
    Hyperbole 

    Nobody is saying that.
    and that, ladies and gentlemen, is what is referred to as "irony":

    I haven't read anout any recent victims, but I'm sure he's plotting something. And, I'm sure some advocate is vouching for his character (albeit at arm's length- they're not assuming any risk and inviting him for any sleepover).
    Seriously? Holy crap, man.

    It was tongue in cheek given your propensity to trot that out there when it best suits you.

    I have no false pretenses- I know who I am.
    when you do it, it's tongue in cheek. when I do it, it's hyperbole. 
    No false pretenses. I know fully how I make my points.

    This one, Hugh, went over your head. I tried to poke some good natured fun at you. I'll stick with 'knock knock' jokes next time.

    * Ladies and Gentleman... lol.
    maybe work on your material. it stinks.  
    T minus 9 days and counting..........
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 6,306
    Something not talked about often enough is the fact that correction officers safety should also be a consideration.

    I've been reading through some different articles and statistics, but it seems about 1,000 officers are hurt each year due to assault.  I'm not sure how accurate this is now but it seemed at one point fatalities for correction officers due to assault was roughly 5 per year.

    What isn't clear is what is the profile of the assailant in these instances.  And that is a key piece of data.  
    thirty has actually brought this up in the past, but the problem is, we can't use that as a reason to put people to death. there is no way, obviously, to know if an inmate will commit an assault or worse on a corrections officer, so killing them to prevent that is putting the cart before the horse. 
    We can if we were so inclined. The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour.

    Not only officers, but other inmates as well. McGray had killed old, young, men, and women. He was convicted. Then eagerly fast tracked to a medium security prison because enthusiastic corrections officials determined he was not a threat (despite saying to the contrary lol). Then... of course... he killed a cell mate who had expressed he felt for his safety and requested a transfer to another cell.

    If he had rightfully been executed... one less victim. 

    I haven't read anout any recent victims, but I'm sure he's plotting something. And, I'm sure some advocate is vouching for his character (albeit at arm's length- they're not assuming any risk and inviting him for any sleepover).

    http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/prison-couldnt-keep-michael-wayne-mcgray-from-killing-just-like-he-said-it-wouldnt
    and this post proves the anti-DP stance. humans and their decision making/emotional responses is fallible. you don't put someone to death because people in the sentencing phase fucked up. I can't even express how ludicrous that is. 

    if he had killed a cellmate that had also been convicted of murder, would you be calling him a victim? or would you be applauding McGray's "service to society"?
    I wouldn't be applauding, but I wouldn't be losing any sleep either.

    You know... one of your posts a few back was detailing how awful it would be in prison- among the dregs of society (or something like that). A murderer isn't 'among' the dregs of society... they are the dregs of society. Prison doesn't make that place brutal as much as the people who are placed there do.
    well no shit. so let's just kill them all then. problem solved. 
    Hyperbole 

    Nobody is saying that.

    We can if we were so inclined. The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour

    Essentially, you are saying that.
    No.

    You glossed over Hugh's comment which I responded to. He said 'we can't'... to which I replied what you quoted.

    I've been very clear as to what I feel warrants a sentence of death throughout this entire thread.
    A little annoyed if someone mischaracterizes your position, thirty?

    Maybe you need a hug and a latte.
    Maybe I do.

    Are you going to keep commenting on the little, petty items... or did you care to tackle some of the bigger items such as the immense failure of our correctional services as in the case of Allan Schoenborn? Aren't you in correctional work in some capacity (mental health aspect of it)? You'd be the perfect person to set me straight on thinking this most recent Canadian debacle is hardly that.

    Remember? In case you put this one out of your mind... it's a microcosm of everything that is wrong with our legal system that tries so hard for shitheads:

    Angry with his ex-wife.
    Killed his three kids with a knife.
    Ran into the bush to hide.
    Came out because he was getting hungry and thirsty.
    Courts rule him not criminally responsible.
    He petitions to move to correctional facilities closer to his ex-wife who is trying to flee from him.
    He refuses treatments for the condition that made him 'not criminally responsible'.
    Has had violent episodes in custody,
    And now BC judge rules him not 'high risk'.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/allan-schoenborn-high-risk-accused-1.4270225

    Go for your latte now.

    I've already commented on Schoenborn before. I think it's you who put it out of your head, since my comments don't fit your narrative. I said I have real concerns about how the whole Schoenborn case was dealt with. Maybe go back and read before you slam me again. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 6,306
    And Schoenborn is an outlier in an otherwise excellent and very functional NCRMD system in Canada (with the exception of how Quebec operates, but, you know, Quebec....) 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • Something not talked about often enough is the fact that correction officers safety should also be a consideration.

    I've been reading through some different articles and statistics, but it seems about 1,000 officers are hurt each year due to assault.  I'm not sure how accurate this is now but it seemed at one point fatalities for correction officers due to assault was roughly 5 per year.

    What isn't clear is what is the profile of the assailant in these instances.  And that is a key piece of data.  
    thirty has actually brought this up in the past, but the problem is, we can't use that as a reason to put people to death. there is no way, obviously, to know if an inmate will commit an assault or worse on a corrections officer, so killing them to prevent that is putting the cart before the horse. 
    We can if we were so inclined. The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour.

    Not only officers, but other inmates as well. McGray had killed old, young, men, and women. He was convicted. Then eagerly fast tracked to a medium security prison because enthusiastic corrections officials determined he was not a threat (despite saying to the contrary lol). Then... of course... he killed a cell mate who had expressed he felt for his safety and requested a transfer to another cell.

    If he had rightfully been executed... one less victim. 

    I haven't read anout any recent victims, but I'm sure he's plotting something. And, I'm sure some advocate is vouching for his character (albeit at arm's length- they're not assuming any risk and inviting him for any sleepover).

    http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/prison-couldnt-keep-michael-wayne-mcgray-from-killing-just-like-he-said-it-wouldnt
    and this post proves the anti-DP stance. humans and their decision making/emotional responses is fallible. you don't put someone to death because people in the sentencing phase fucked up. I can't even express how ludicrous that is. 

    if he had killed a cellmate that had also been convicted of murder, would you be calling him a victim? or would you be applauding McGray's "service to society"?
    I wouldn't be applauding, but I wouldn't be losing any sleep either.

    You know... one of your posts a few back was detailing how awful it would be in prison- among the dregs of society (or something like that). A murderer isn't 'among' the dregs of society... they are the dregs of society. Prison doesn't make that place brutal as much as the people who are placed there do.
    well no shit. so let's just kill them all then. problem solved. 
    Hyperbole 

    Nobody is saying that.

    We can if we were so inclined. The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour

    Essentially, you are saying that.
    No.

    You glossed over Hugh's comment which I responded to. He said 'we can't'... to which I replied what you quoted.

    I've been very clear as to what I feel warrants a sentence of death throughout this entire thread.
    A little annoyed if someone mischaracterizes your position, thirty?

    Maybe you need a hug and a latte.
    Maybe I do.

    Are you going to keep commenting on the little, petty items... or did you care to tackle some of the bigger items such as the immense failure of our correctional services as in the case of Allan Schoenborn? Aren't you in correctional work in some capacity (mental health aspect of it)? You'd be the perfect person to set me straight on thinking this most recent Canadian debacle is hardly that.

    Remember? In case you put this one out of your mind... it's a microcosm of everything that is wrong with our legal system that tries so hard for shitheads:

    Angry with his ex-wife.
    Killed his three kids with a knife.
    Ran into the bush to hide.
    Came out because he was getting hungry and thirsty.
    Courts rule him not criminally responsible.
    He petitions to move to correctional facilities closer to his ex-wife who is trying to flee from him.
    He refuses treatments for the condition that made him 'not criminally responsible'.
    Has had violent episodes in custody,
    And now BC judge rules him not 'high risk'.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/allan-schoenborn-high-risk-accused-1.4270225

    Go for your latte now.

    I've already commented on Schoenborn before. I think it's you who put it out of your head, since my comments don't fit your narrative. I said I have real concerns about how the whole Schoenborn case was dealt with. Maybe go back and read before you slam me again. 
    There have been recent developments that are worth discussing. No?

    His case is not an 'outlier in an otherwise excellent and very functional NCRMD system in Canada' from my perspective. His case oozes with everything that is wrong with our system- from judicial hearings to correctional services.

    Let's go have a latte together.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • tbergstbergs Posts: 2,925
    I get why people want to keep the death penalty. This recent case in my dear state is a horrific example. There's no DP here, but hopefully these 3 are repeatedly punished in every way possible behind bars for the rest of their lives.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/09/08/raped-held-captive-for-29-days-girl-swims-across-lake-to-escape-police-say/
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 37,485
    edited September 8
    PJ_Soul said:
    Soul...

    If anybody killed one of my kids... I'd feel nothing for their murderer and would want them gone. I might feel a bit badly for their family, but I'm not sure whether I'd concern myself too much over their grief or not given mine would be much greater. Yes... much greater.

    I wouldn't want their killer doing what people like Olsen or Shearing did in Canadian prisons- claiming headlines for various things, getting married, receiving top notch cancer care in timely fashion, receiving 'life like' sex dolls, and other notorious things.

    If it was my son who murdered someone and he was set to receive the DP... of course I wouldn't want that for him- I love my kid unconditionally.

    In the hypothetical you've presented... we are concerning ourselves with the murderer. You've been to the point lately suggesting opponents of the DP are not concerned with murderers and do not feel pity for them. I'm curious to know what your motive is for presenting it? It seems to suggest you do empathize with the murderer.
    Oh, as always, my hypothetical is not actually concerned about the murderer in any way. It shows concern for the surviving victims, who include the family of the murdered victim of course, but also, in many cases, the family of the convicted. I feel deeply for them and the living hell their flesh and blood has also put them through. As I've said dozens of times with 100% clarity, I couldn't care less about the feelings of the murderer (always assuming, obviously, that he's actually guilty... which isn't always a given). I am a little taken aback by your interpretation of the scenario I made up, since I sincerely don't understand how you interpreted that as sympathy for the murderer. I don't feel like anything I said suggests that in any way. I was indeed curious specifically because I wondered if you gave a shit about the rest of the victims in such horrible situations as this, as you would be yourself, if your child committed a heinous crime and was going to be killed by the state.
    .... FWIW, if, god forbid, your kid ended up on death row, I would stand behind your fight to stop the state sanctioned murder of your child.
    I re-read your post. I concede that I misinterpreted to some degree. Sorry. I also feel I have done a really shitty job detailing my position in my last few posts... and I'm too lazy to articulate any better than I already have. Reading posts on my phone and posting on my phone when I don't really have the time to do so is not conducive for effective communication (both listening and speaking). I'll be more careful next time.

    It is a grim hypothetical. I don't really want to think of my child murdered and I don't want to think of him murdering anyone. If either were to happen... please give me your change when you walk by me as I sit on the ground outside of Tim Hortons. I'd be devastated.

    As a side note, I think it's a good point in time to express that I think you're a good person. I've never not thought that as much as we have disagreed (and will continue to disagree) over some topics throughout the years.
    It is a grim scenario for sure, and I felt slightly uncomfortable even typing it to a father TBH, but figured you'd be okay with it for the sake of the discussing. ;) I hear ya on the mobile version of the forum - it sucks.
    And, right back at you. I have friendly feelings towards you and most other people on the AMT, no matter how much we may disagree ... That's why I think we should meet up for drinks when we're both seeing the same show one of these days; I bet we could come up with some good conversations, lol. ;)
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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